Save our temples.

[suba42]

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The basic intention was to bring the Hindu temples from the clutches of the government, and do good to the people. If the Administrator feels that this VHP is an organisation with political motives and all the actions of the organization are politically motivated, since this is the policy of the forum, I do abide by it, though I am personally in no way connected with any political body in the country.

Hence I shall refrain from posting any such matters, in the future.

What hurts me is the unnecessary jibe of Mr. Prasad about going to a party hosted by the President of the USA, in a birthday suite. Does he mean nudity???

I have not committed any such acts in my life nor have I gone to the US of A.

Perhaps Mr. Prasad has rich experiences of attending many parties in his birthday suite.

So be it.

 

[prasad1]

A simile is a figure of speech that directly compares two different things, usually by employing the words "like" or "as" – also, but less commonly, "if", or "than". A simile differs from a metaphor in that the latter compares two unlike things by saying that the one thing is the other thing.
Mr. Suba42, may be you have difficulty understanding period.

If the government (by the people) is so bad, that you have to save people and temple from the said elected government, what is the alternative you propose.
How do you know that the alternative you propose is not worse than what we have now?

 

[suba42]

There was no need for your jibe at this moment!!! You could have put a straight question. Moreover, you are one of the members of this forum like me and that is it. Please understand that you do not call the shots!!!

As a citizen of Thiruvanaikoil. Trichy, and having heard of lot of administrative malpractices and financial misappropriations by Executive Officers appointed by the HR & CE, Tamilnadu in Akhilandeswari Temple of Thiruvanaikoil, and Sri Ranganathar Temple, Srirangam, the attempt of the VHP to bring the temples out of the control of HR & CE was welcome by many of us local people, and we feel that an apolotical NGO body viz. Temple Worshippers Society, comprising many prominent Hindu Tamils and chiefs of prominent mutts, could do a better job that the political forum.

If the administrator of this Tamil Brahmins forum feels that this is enacted with a political motive, I have no other go but to withdraw my post.

Nevertheless, the matter is sub-judice with the Supreme Court of India, which has to decide the fate of Hindu Temples and employees of Hindu Temples in Tamilnadu.

It is invariably in the hands of the Almighty, to do justice.

It is felt that time has come to end this thread.

 

[ShivKC]

T

As a citizen of Thiruvanaikoil. Trichy, and having heard of lot of administrative malpractices and financial misappropriations by Executive Officers appointed by the HR & CE, Tamilnadu in Akhilandeswari Temple of Thiruvanaikoil, and Sri Ranganathar Temple, Srirangam, the attempt of the VHP to bring the temples out of the control of HR & CE was welcome by many of us local people, and we feel that an apolotical NGO body viz. Temple Worshippers Society, comprising many prominent Hindu Tamils and chiefs of prominent mutts, could do a better job that the political forum.

.

when they had similar problem of families holding grip over places of worship, long long 400 years ago, they formed a WAKF board.. even after four centuries we find unsolved disputes in Chidambaram.. on top of it, few members support the family stand over chidambaram issue.

anyways, when likely the so called apolotical NGO body viz. Temple Worshippers Society would come in to action, though late by five centuries? even if, would they be able to bring Chidambaram under its umbrella ?

 

[prasad1]

A democratic body may satisfy the urge to participate, but ultimately it is one of the worst form of operational organization.
One of the ways to solve the problem is to make the HR&CE a more responsive organization.
In one of the post Mr. Suraju showed how he achieved this in a small temple.
There are ways to work with corruption.

We have achieved here in my town with the Hindu center. We have set up a corporate structure. But still the primary work is done by people who do not have official designation. Only selfless dedicated workers can get the desired results. The officials only look for designation, they do not feel they have to do any work.

 

[sarang]

This is like the past discussions on public and private sector. The government is to the job of the king - inplement dharma, facilitate, enforce laws, punish the guilty, fight wars with external enemies. It should not get into the administration of the temples.

Temples are not money making machines, and must be entrusted to those who respect traditions and who will ensure continuance and growth. Of course, it is the duty of the government to punish those who steal 'shivan soththu' without waiting for Shiva to do it.

Dear Iniyan Sir

Your post # 8 of this thread and related posts in other threads.

True, the DK / DMK were never responsible the Govt control of Hindu Temples. The DMK was just-about
in an infant / fetus stage when the enactment was passed.

The premises where the HQ of the HR&CE is located - prime location on Nungambakkam High Rd, Chennai
was "gifted" by Sir T.Sadasiva Iyer, who was also the founder of the HR&CE itself. His statue [bust] is
situated inside the building - 1st floor, in the court room. He passed away in 1929.
Sir TS was also Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and a picture [painting] of his can be seen in the
Madras High Court, as well. He was Knighted as SIR, for his contributions that led to various amendments
in the British Legal System. He was held in high regard by the legal fraternity both in India and the UK.

Rajaji and Krishna Menon were nowhere near the horizon during his times.

I happen to be his [Sir TS's] great great grand son and have learnt a lot of 'inside dope' from family tales
handed down. As with many unsung heroes of the social reform movement, Sir TS's name too is pretty-much
lost in some archives, somewhere.

The HR&CE Act in the present form, was definitely NOT what he had envisioned. - even a casual glance as the
preamble will suffice to establish this.

But you are right - we don't want a 'frying-pan-to-the-fire' situation, considering that we may be playing into the
hands of hard-core, extremist outfits with hidden agendas.

The choice of an alternate body for upkeep/administration of Temples is going to be a tough one
- with Mutts, Mutt Heads, God-Men and Adheenams in the news for all the wrong reasons.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

 

[suraju06]

Dear Prasad,

A democratic set up may deliver the goods if it is manned by selfless individuals. This is what you have effectively said here. But when I said that, it became politics and I was thought to have come to the president's party in my birthday suit. Democracy is not a term used in metaphysics, physics,chemistry or anthropology. It is a political term. Politics is barred here even if it is the harmless variety. I do not want to write any more about democracy here lest my birthday suit becomes a raging point of discussion and I start earning negative points without even knowing that it is happening (I am told the software is so intelligent that it decides whether you are shameful or shameless and for how long. I am sure it must have a knack to detect whether you are in your birthday suit or not).

Cheers.

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Sri Raju

You seem to have missed the point altogether ! This has nothing to with stifling one's "freedom of expression"
or passing fatwah - "gag order" against anyone.

Since you are a self-proclaimed Communist [your post # 16 of this thread] you might like to know that I
have had cousins who were communists, who served as MLAs and MLCs in the erstwhile Madras Legislative
Assembly and Madras Legislative Council, before it [ MLC ] was done away with. You may also like to
know that I read Karl Marx and Engels [ Frederick or Friedrich - take your pick ] with the same enthusiasm
as I would with a work of Harold Robbins / Jeffery Archer / Chetan Bhagat / Arundati Roy / Ashsis Nandy.

You, being a communist, is entirely your business and I respect your freedom of choice and the right to
your political leanings and sympathies.

Now, coming to your post # 23 of this thread, if you have followed my writings in other threads, over a period of
time, you will notice that since 1977, I have been a Founder-Member of a Committee actively involved in
the renovation and upkeep of a 1400 year old Paadal Petra Sthalam.

36 years down the line, the committee having built 3 Raja Gopurams, performed 5 Kumbabhishekams, renovated the Theppakulam, renovated the Dwaja Sthambam, established a Go Shaala and continuing to perform the annual Brahmotsavams, Vasantotsavams, Religious discourses, music and cultural activities - all that we got was headaches
from organisations like VHP.

I had mentioned earlier in this thread itself that I am a direct descendant of the "Father of the HR&CE" and have
also had to face the brunt of the callousness and brazen attitude of the officials concerned.

Please also note the fact I didn't report Suba42's post to the moderator. In all decency, I appealed to him
to 'play within the rules'. There was also a post by a very senior member who equated Krishna to Hitler - I didn't
report that post either - that was his personal view and he had the guts to express it.

But, maybe I would have reported it to the moderator, if he was trying to do a Rumsfeld / Powell in
convincing us of Krishna's WMD [Weapons of Mass Destruction ].

I hope that this throws some clarity on the subject.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

There are a couple of facts which we should be aware.

Except very few temples (may be about twenty all over India), the temples do not generate suffecient income to meet even the basic expenditure. The money from the hundi is not even enough to buy oil for lighting the lamps.

The Kings and later on big donors left property for the temples so that the properties could generate enough income to maintain the temples.

But with the properties not generating sufficient income, the temples are by and large a loss making proposition.

Please do not quote the instances of Tirupathi, Sabari mala, Guruvayoor. Please compile a list of rich temples and see how many you get.

The idea of HRCE is that there would be a common corpus and that the temples which do not generate suffecient income would be subsidized by the income from rich temples.

Most of us are cut up about the temples charging for Archana and special Dharshan.

This is a way of generating income for the temples. If you do not charge for Archana the devotees would ask the priest to perform Archana and then pay him as Dhakshina. This would go to the priest and the temples do not get anything.

The basic problem with the temples is the behaviour of the devotees. There are devotees who would come to the temple by car, and then bargain with the flower seller for a couple of rupees on the garland and then spend money on Archana. If they drop any money in the Hundi it would be a couple of rupees in coins. The total amount spend on the garland, Archana and the Hundi is far less than the cost of Petrol for the car and the cost of a couple of cigarettes that the devotee smokes during that period.

Let us ask ourselves that question. How much money do we give to our temples? When we visit the temple, is it not a fact that the cost of transportation is more than what is spent on the temple?

We do have many NRIs visiting our temples. But I do not see many 50 Rs and 100 Rs notes in the plate held by the priest. That is one dollar and two dollars in U.S which even a beggar there would not accept. Why do we become stingy when it comes to giving Dakshina to Vadhyars and Priests in temples.

What is needed is a change in the attitude of the devotees? They have to give more money. We complain that the temple are dirty, they are not well maintained and so on. For our Rs.10 that is all what we will get. We want more. We Have to pay for it. Otherwise do not crib.

I will take the case of temple situated in one of the poshest and expensive neighborhoods in Chennai and show how that temple is struggling.

Again and again I am reminded of what Bharathi said

வாய்ச்சொல்லில் வீரரடி !!! We are all.

 

[suraju06]

There is another side to the reality.

All the small village temples that have been taken over by HR&CE and managed by them own lands and have other rights(like rights over the tanks) which every year can be converted into money. All of them are invariably mismanaged. They are so badly mismanaged that there are no records for the extent of land. Many fertile pieces of lands have been annexed with other privately owned properties. There are no records of ornaments in Gold and Silver which were donated to the temple. I know of a temple in which even the brass kavacham of the moolavar deity has gone missing. Non of the sharecroppers /tenants pay their dues. HR&CE is least bothered. There are archakars who are not paid anything. Because of their satvik values they have not yet deserted the moorthies in the temple. Moreover where will they go in the old age is a question which perhaps bothers them. Temples in town get crowds of bhaktas visiting the temple. But these village temples are never visited by any. It is a pathetic story. Rich temples cross-subsidising the poor village temples is there only on the paper. My village temple has been deserted long back. I am struggling to get an archaka. The archakar, even if I get one, does not stay in his job. My village is not in a distant island. There are town buses plying through my village from the nearby town. We have been knocking at the doors of HR&CE to pay the archaka just the paddy twice in a year, which in any case is cultivated in the land belonging to the temple. We know the fields are yielding. But for the HR&CE the fields are barren and they do not get anything. As all my efforts to reason it out with the Board has failed I am trying other methods. Already my villages have once done a road blockade. We are increasing the pressure. I am not very confident about success. I have personally taken a vow that I will not offer anything to the hundi or to the archana ticket or to the archaka when I visit a temple in a town which has fairly good crowd visiting it. But when I visit a isolated village temple I offer what best I can.

Cheers.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

There is another side to the reality.

All the small village temples that have been taken over by HR&CE and managed by them own lands and have other rights(like rights over the tanks) which every year can be converted into money. All of them are invariably mismanaged. They are so badly mismanaged that there are no records for the extent of land. Many fertile pieces of lands have been annexed with other privately owned properties. There are no records of ornaments in Gold and Silver which were donated to the temple. I know of a temple in which even the brass kavacham of the moolavar deity has gone missing. Non of the sharecroppers /tenants pay their dues. HR&CE is least bothered. There are archakars who are not paid anything. Because of their satvik values they have not yet deserted the moorthies in the temple. Moreover where will they go in the old age is a question which perhaps bothers them. Temples in town get crowds of bhaktas visiting the temple. But these village temples are never visited by any. It is a pathetic story. Rich temples cross-subsidising the poor village temples is there only on the paper. My village temple has been deserted long back. I am struggling to get an archaka. The archakar, even if I get one, does not stay in his job. My village is not in a distant island. There are town buses plying through my village from the nearby town. We have been knocking at the doors of HR&CE to pay the archaka just the paddy twice in a year, which in any case is cultivated in the land belonging to the temple. We know the fields are yielding. But for the HR&CE the fields are barren and they do not get anything. As all my efforts to reason it out with the Board has failed I am trying other methods. Already my villages have once done a road blockade. We are increasing the pressure. I am not very confident about success. I have personally taken a vow that I will not offer anything to the hundi or to the archana ticket or to the archaka when I visit a temple in a town which has fairly good crowd visiting it. But when I visit a isolated village temple I offer what best I can.

Cheers.

Sri. Raju,

I have seen many temples like that. Last year I was passing by a known village. It has a Vinyagar temple in fairly good condition. But no one ever visits the temple. No regular puja.

I saw that the temple was being renovated. On enquiry I was told that some of the boys from the village who have done well in life have contributed money and are getting the temple renovated.

Though I was happy, I knew that even after renovation very few people would visit the temple. The Archaka even if he comes will have a tough time with no devotees and no help.

I think it is high time we asked ourselves whether we need the thousands of temples.

I remember visiting the Shiva temple at Mazharpadi across the Kollidam river in the seventies. We reached the temple during Sandhya time. No devotees. Hardly any light. Huge temple. It was scary walking in the dark around the temple.

Remember this is the temple of

பொன்னார் மேனியனே புலித்தோலை அரைக்கசைத்து
மின்னார் செஞ்சடைமேல் மிளிர்கொன்றை யணிந்தவனே
மன்னே மாமணியே மழபாடியுள் மாணிக்கமே
அன்னே உன்னையல்லால் இனியாரை நினைக்கேனே.

Now here what are we maintaining the temple for? For the Devotees. No one seems to be bothered. Or are we maintaining these temples are ancient monuments?

There are no devotees in ancient temples. But you come out and find that there is a huge crowd of devotees in front of the recently opened illegal foot path Pillaiyar temple. They get more money than the huge ancient temple.

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Iniyan Sir

Your post #36

These are the consequences of Industrialization, Modernization and Urbanization. From the times humans wandered as
hunter-gatherers, many thousands of years ago and later settling into small villages, this type of migration has
been taking place and is pretty-much a one-way migration. The reasons for the migration of rural folk to urban
areas are quite complicated and have been very significant since the medieval times. These are the same
reasons why metropolises and megapolises flourish these days.

Village lifestyle and culture are characterized by common lineages and bloodlines, close and intimate relations
and communal activities and behavior, while the urban lifestyle and culture are characterized by distant or
disconnected lineages and bloodlines, unfamiliar, passive relations and a competitive behavior.

The rural poor that migrate to urban and suburban areas - mainly in search of 'greener pastures' end-up subsisting
on very low incomes in shanty slums in appalling conditions of health, hygiene and education.

The concept of 'Reverse Migration' and 'De-Urbanisation' have been the topics of various studies right through the
20th Century by various Universities and the UNO. For this to actually happen, sufficient inducement / motivation
- by way of say, income and other facilities in rural areas cannot be provided over-night. This is a world-wide phenomenon for which no one seems to have an immediate, credible remedy.

For the time-being, villages are going to look emptier and emptier and old and ancient Temples and Shrines
are going to look more and more deserted and abandoned.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

 

[wrongan]

The trustees of the temples looted the temples for thousands of years.

The entire agricultural land in Tanjore district once belonged to the temples.

How did these lands land in the hands of people associated with the temples?

The Government servants are more accountable than any of the trustees of any trust.

The biggest scandal in recent years was the siphoning of funds from a religious trust of thousands of crores. Nothing came out of the investigation. The people and the press lost interest after some time.

------------------------------- The temples were as it was for thousands of years and only in the last century when justice party poked their nose in temple administration the rituals as well the structure is left to ruin.The landed property in large were aelinated to other purposes and swindled by politicians.But your thinking is different.May be you are cent percent right.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

I am sorry.

This has nothing to do with Industrialization.

Some of the ancient temples are now in places which are quite far from Villages/cities. Like the temple in Mazharpadi. I did not see any houses nearby. Thiruvaiyaru is on the other bank of the river. May be there was a boat service in the old days or there were settlements nearby. No one come to the temple because no one stays nearby.

You have temples in Ramnad district which are located inside Agraharams. The only problem is that the people who reside in these Aghraharams now are all Muslims. There is no Hindu/Brahmin any where nearby. All of them left when there was a continouos draught for years.

Taking about towns, there are hundreds of temples in Kumbakonam town. Other than the old ones new tremples have also come up wherever it is possible.

I wrote about an ancient temple not having any devotee and a new temples hgeting a huge crowd. This I saw in the Viswanathar temple in Kumbakonam.

Does Kumbakonam need that many temples? No. It does not.
Temples were erected by Kings, coomunities and individuals to proclaim their piety and also make them famous. To show thier power. Many temples are erected like this. Then some temples were erected as a darught relief measure to provide employment.

One of the major factors for the poor upkeep of existing temples is the interpretation of our scriptures.

According to our scriptures a person who erects a new temple, gets a lot of credit lasting into generations.

But no credit is given for renovating a temple.

Temple building is good business. It is the only way which guarantees Bhukthi and Mukthi. You collect Rs. 25 Lakhs for the construction of the temple and spend 10 Lakhs for the real construction.

The balance of Rs.15 lakhs assures you of Bhukthi. Enjoyment in this current Jenma.

Of course you also get Mukthi because you have built a temple.

No wonder that thousands of new temples are coming up every year.