Solutions to the community's problem of digging its own grave

[C RAVI]

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Let us not live in an exclusive cloister because of birth. This attitude will ruin our future generation.

ray2:

Regards,
Brahmanyan.

Shri Brahmanyan,

Your post no.22 is highly admirable and is very soothing.

But, I would like to express my views on the quoted statement of yours. -


Every community having been into existence and with folks being born in that existing community, is continuing to identify themselves in the society, associating themselves in their exclusive cloister. BUT, it is only just that they all belong to that exclusive cloister that takes pride in its existence, following its tradition/custom/practices, continuing to prosper its cloister etc.etc and in No Way to isolate themselves from each other out of own perceived superiority and attempting to detach itself from the concept of Unity in Diversity in Democratic India.

All the community people today respect each other irrespective of caste and religion While Holding love & respect towards one's own community. All the community go to the maximum extent to live in line with the sense of Humanity, Compassion and Unity while continuing to stick to the prosperity of their own community in the same intensity.

When Brahmins wish to take pride expecting unity among Brahmins in Brahmin's Exclusive Cloister because of Birth While continuing to live with the sense of Humanity, Compassion and Unity with all other Caste and Religious community, why that such an attempt gonna Ruin them??

 

[sravna]

Here is a list of advantages for marrying within the community and for IC marriages. You may add to the list.

1. You are more likely to find a partner suitable to your temperament

2. You do not have to make compromises with regard to the practice of your culture

3. You help to preserve the diversity among humans

4. You are not yielding to transient aspects such as money, power etc. that may be displayed by members of other groups

5. You ensure that the vast intellectual efforts of the past simply do not go waste by continuing to practice our culture

The factors that favor IC marriages may be:

1. You would seem to embrace the modern principle of equality and not seem to be narrow minded. You are in general trying to move along with the times.

2. You are showing more respect to the values of an individual than to that of a group

We may have to check the number of IC marriages happening given that there are reasons for trying to do the same and if steps are taken I think the problem may mitigate but given some real and genuine reasons for some IC marriages we will just have to accept if the number comes down hopefully considerably and not be against all IC marriages.

 

[sangom]

so true sangom. i have always wondered at the fascination of our communication towards this separation, ie US vs THEM, instead of the inclusive 'US HINDUS'.

the middle castes are doing with even more vehemance and violence against the dalits, what originated in our scriptures, and for which, we used to be the guardians, till about 100 years ago, when we started to abandon all this, in favour of service for the Raj.

very good point sangom. we need to think of pan hindu umbrella, and be selective in what we propose. otherwise there would be no takers, even from our own youth, who today, are exposed to other castes and religions, from day one of school.

Dear Kunjuppu,

Regarding the vehemence of the NB middle (or is it 'high'?) classes against Dalits, it is most acute in TN only; Bihar, UP etc., have had this sort of suppression of Dalits as their history and not much change has happened even now.

I am reminded of my school days. Some teacher sometimes would come and announce that he has to go to some higher class for taking one period and ask the students to be disciplined because the HM will come and inspect. Till the HM came, the class will have some semblance to discipline but once he came, saw and disappeared into the first floor room of his building (could be seen from most class rooms because the HM had a view of most class rooms from his room verandah), all noise and shouting would start but the students would not go out of the class room for fear of somebody reporting, getting caught, etc. In a similar way, the brahmins controlled the social discipline of hindus in all its aspects, may be with the help of the ruler or the ruling class (this applied to TN during Raj) but once the brahmins went away, the middle castes who were the next in social ranking have taken over the 'control' of the hindu caste system in the way they have been told and they have understood.

Pan-hindu concept will be a non-starter in India according to me; Pan-indian idea may be more workable but difficult to achieve, again. That is the kind of separatist, divisive mentality that we have inherited. May be this also is a result of genetic modification due to 'culture' working thru millennia!

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear Mr. Brahmanyan,

I agree with your broadmindedness. But please answer this just one question. Do you support IC/IR marriages? Would you say they are desirable? Would you say that they solve all the problems of the community with respect to their isolation?

Your answer will show us how far you are ready to travel and where do you stand.

Thanks.

Dear Mr "Vaagmi",

We have discussed this subject many time in the past. In one of the posts I have given the following observation:

"It is true that many Brahmin Girls marry boys from other Castes (and religions) nowadays. This trend started among the rich families first and now spreading to other strata of Brahmin families too. But I don't thing it has expanded to alarming proportions as some feel. When there is a change in the Social and economic values due to increase in earning capacity of girls these type of inter mixing take place. More economic independence among the employed girls is the primary reason for this change. But the attitude of Parents are also responsible for this situation. Parents who have primary responsibility to get proper match for their daughters when they attain eligibility to get married, postpone the same for some reason or other. When the boys and girls at marriageable age are left alone in far off places to mix without control, nature takes over the responsibility of the parents and tie them into wedlock. Many times this infatuation triggered by age, is mistaken for ( instant) love and has no religious, caste or community barriers. If these marriages are out of true love between the two, our Scriptures have nothing against them, and many of these marriages are also successful, but the children out of this wedlock are the worst sufferers. Our society is not ready to accept "asavarna Prathiloma" marriages yet."

To add further, many of these love marriages happen because of external compulsions, a sort of accident. Mostly happen when the boys and girls live in big cities and foreign Countries, where there is no parental or community guidance available. Personally I believe that it needs a lot of adjustment required to be made by the pair comming from different cultural back-ground to sustain the married life in the long run. I have seen many IC and a few IR marriages in our family, most of them continue with intermittent rumblings, but few of them broke forcing to divorce.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sravna]

Dear Mr "Vaagmi",

We have discussed this subject many time in the past. In one of the posts I have given the following observation:

"It is true that many Brahmin Girls marry boys from other Castes (and religions) nowadays. This trend started among the rich families first and now spreading to other strata of Brahmin families too. But I don't thing it has expanded to alarming proportions as some feel. When there is a change in the Social and economic values due to increase in earning capacity of girls these type of inter mixing take place. More economic independence among the employed girls is the primary reason for this change. But the attitude of Parents are also responsible for this situation. Parents who have primary responsibility to get proper match for their daughters when they attain eligibility to get married, postpone the same for some reason or other. When the boys and girls at marriageable age are left alone in far off places to mix without control, nature takes over the responsibility of the parents and tie them into wedlock. Many times this infatuation triggered by age, is mistaken for ( instant) love and has no religious, caste or community barriers. If these marriages are out of true love between the two, our Scriptures have nothing against them, and many of these marriages are also successful, but the children out of this wedlock are the worst sufferers. Our society is not ready to accept "asavarna Prathiloma" marriages yet."

To add further, many of these love marriages happen because of external compulsions, a sort of accident. Mostly happen when the boys and girls live in big cities and foreign Countries, where there is no parental or community guidance available. Personally I believe that it needs a lot of adjustment required to be made by the pair comming from different cultural back-ground to sustain the married life in the long run. I have seen many IC and a few IR marriages in our family, most of them continue with intermittent rumblings, but few of them broke forcing to divorce.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

A very sensible observation Shri Brahmanyan

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Mr "Vaagmi",

We have discussed this subject many time in the past. In one of the posts I have given the following observation:

"It is true that many Brahmin Girls marry boys from other Castes (and religions) nowadays. This trend started among the rich families first and now spreading to other strata of Brahmin families too. But I don't thing it has expanded to alarming proportions as some feel. When there is a change in the Social and economic values due to increase in earning capacity of girls these type of inter mixing take place. More economic independence among the employed girls is the primary reason for this change. But the attitude of Parents are also responsible for this situation. Parents who have primary responsibility to get proper match for their daughters when they attain eligibility to get married, postpone the same for some reason or other. When the boys and girls at marriageable age are left alone in far off places to mix without control, nature takes over the responsibility of the parents and tie them into wedlock. Many times this infatuation triggered by age, is mistaken for ( instant) love and has no religious, caste or community barriers. If these marriages are out of true love between the two, our Scriptures have nothing against them, and many of these marriages are also successful, but the children out of this wedlock are the worst sufferers. Our society is not ready to accept "asavarna Prathiloma" marriages yet."

To add further, many of these love marriages happen because of external compulsions, a sort of accident. Mostly happen when the boys and girls live in big cities and foreign Countries, where there is no parental or community guidance available. Personally I believe that it needs a lot of adjustment required to be made by the pair comming from different cultural back-ground to sustain the married life in the long run. I have seen many IC and a few IR marriages in our family, most of them continue with intermittent rumblings, but few of them broke forcing to divorce.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Thank you Mr. Brahmanyan. That was a nice way of speaking the truth. Now I will wait for the reaction of the reform brigade for their views on this. Thanks.

 

[prasad1]

I wish to participate in this thread on one aspect of discussion. That is, the glorification of exclusiveness of Brahmin Community. I am against the same.

I understood one thing for certain, birth is not the choice of the child. If I am born to Brahmin parents it is the choice of that unknown power of nature, not mine. This applies to all who are born in this world.

Caste is man-made division of groups. There is no sacrosanct in claiming in one Caste superior to another. All are part of the community, complimentary to each other to maintain a healthy society. There is no Caste based values by birth, instead we can call Satvic, Rajasic or Thamasic values by birth or circumstances and environment. Morality and right living are not the exclusive domain of any Caste or Community. They are common to all. Our scriptures have repeatedly shown this. Most of our Alwars and Nayanmars are not Brahmins by birth. In our own time,Swami Vivekananda, Swami Chinmayananda, Swami Chitbavananda, Sri Narayana Guru and many more religious leaders are not Brahmins by birth.

Let us not forget the yeoman service by Nagarathaar, Mudaliars and rich people from other castes in maintaining our Veda Patasalas, Temples and Mutts. It is because of their financial help, today we have magnificent Hindu Temples functioning . Sri Ilayaraja, born Christian Daniel Rasaiah, turned devout Hindu gave his earnings to build one story of Sri Ranganathaswami Temple Raja Gopuram renovation in Srirangam at the advise of Sri Jeer Swami. If we read the autobiography of U. Ve. Saminatha Iyer we will understand how the society as a whole helped and supported him in his pursuit of search for ancient Tamil literature.

We can certainly preserve and follow our cultural values, the present generation with their vast exposure and honest inquisitiveness have shown real interest in learning about our Religious beliefs and practices. I have no doubt that the future of our religious values is safe in their hands.

Let us not live in an exclusive cloister because of birth. This attitude will ruin our future generation.

ray2:

Regards,
Brahmanyan.

As usual very scholarly, balanced and timely writing.
Thank you sir.

 

[prasad1]

With great reluctance I enter this thread. I have lived for to too long outside the State and the Country and hate to be
dragged into a discussion on a Caste-based society. Some of the postings here are really nauseating to me and
speak volumes of the state of of backwardness and narrow-mindedness of some folk.

I had indicated in another thread that it would be helpful to one-and-all if we just manage to shed the medieval
mind-set and adapt ourselves to changing times.

But it looks, some of the brilliant people here might attempt to re-wind the society's thinking by about a 100 years
and strongly advocate bringing back some of the social evils that we had voluntarily dumped.

I really don't see any "digging of its own grave by the community" . It's question of mind-set.

People change, perspectives change, priorities change . Nothing stays static - everything changes,
The only thing permanent is CHANGE.

If this CHANGE cannot be perceived, comprehended and imbibed we are bound to have a whole
society stuck in a time-wrap.

In my personal capacity, I would have never been able to handle so many dying, injured and dead people [ with
my bare hands] if had placed myself on a high pedestal because of an assumed superior birth !

I am neither arm-chair politician nor a text-book philosopher, but surely know the difference between
a SYMPTOM and a CAUSE.

It would better is people address the CAUSE and not just treat the SYMPTOMS.

In my opinion, the CAUSE is the mind-set.

I hope people will stop this rambling on superior births / karmas / DNAs - doesn't make sense to me.

Yay Yem

Thank you AMji for bringing reason and the voice of majority to the forum. I admire the tireless work you do among people. This also gives you a wider perspective of the world. Thank you for sharing your POV.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Mr "Vaagmi",

We have discussed this subject many time in the past. In one of the posts I have given the following observation:

"It is true that many Brahmin Girls marry boys from other Castes (and religions) nowadays. This trend started among the rich families first and now spreading to other strata of Brahmin families too. But I don't thing it has expanded to alarming proportions as some feel. When there is a change in the Social and economic values due to increase in earning capacity of girls these type of inter mixing take place. More economic independence among the employed girls is the primary reason for this change. But the attitude of Parents are also responsible for this situation. Parents who have primary responsibility to get proper match for their daughters when they attain eligibility to get married, postpone the same for some reason or other. When the boys and girls at marriageable age are left alone in far off places to mix without control, nature takes over the responsibility of the parents and tie them into wedlock. Many times this infatuation triggered by age, is mistaken for ( instant) love and has no religious, caste or community barriers. If these marriages are out of true love between the two, our Scriptures have nothing against them, and many of these marriages are also successful, but the children out of this wedlock are the worst sufferers. Our society is not ready to accept "asavarna Prathiloma" marriages yet."

To add further, many of these love marriages happen because of external compulsions, a sort of accident. Mostly happen when the boys and girls live in big cities and foreign Countries, where there is no parental or community guidance available. Personally I believe that it needs a lot of adjustment required to be made by the pair comming from different cultural back-ground to sustain the married life in the long run. I have seen many IC and a few IR marriages in our family, most of them continue with intermittent rumblings, but few of them broke forcing to divorce.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

:yo:

 

[kunjuppu]

Thank you Mr. Brahmanyan. That was a nice way of speaking the truth. Now I will wait for the reaction of the reform brigade for their views on this. Thanks.

i think the reform brigade is saying very similar to this.

if it happens accept it. IC marriages are no more different than within caste in many respects, though IR has more adjustments.

arranged IC marriages? all we are saying, as a last resort, if you dont have a spouse in your own caste. and bring up the kids as brahmins, so that your culture is passed on to the next generation. dont cast casteist prejudice on those who do it, and arrange to have your child married to one of scuh. or would you not do that?

MANAGE the change. the key word is MANAGE. that is the call of this 1/3 of reform brigade dont run away from change, or pretend the change does not exist. worse, dont try to turn back the clock.

clear enough? enough of innuendos and name calling. thank you.

ps..thank you Brahmanyan and Anand, for instilling some dose of common sense here.

 

[sangom]

I wish to participate in this thread on one aspect of discussion. That is, the glorification of exclusiveness of Brahmin Community. I am against the same.

I understood one thing for certain, birth is not the choice of the child. If I am born to Brahmin parents it is the choice of that unknown power of nature, not mine. This applies to all who are born in this world.

Shri Brahmanyan,

As you might have observed, my name has been included in the list of "brahmin bashers", "reform brigade", etc., just because people perhaps want to create the cinematic format of 'hero' & 'villain' inside this forum, in order to attract audience (readers, in this case).

What you have said above is the sum and substance of all that I have been saying. In addition, I was also reminding the people here of the fact that, when talking about "our cultural values", generation after generation, we brahmins have been losing some aspects thereof with the result the present middle-aged generation is following only a small fraction of what our cultural values were some hundred years ago. I, therefore, respectfully, differ from your statement that "We can certainly preserve and follow our cultural values, the present generation with their vast exposure and honest inquisitiveness have shown real interest in learning about our Religious beliefs and practices." My position in this regard is that this 'cultural values', or, even the 'culture' itself will diminish from generation to generation, despite all the brouhaha about it in this forum.

Caste is man-made division of groups. There is no sacrosanct in claiming in one Caste superior to another. All are part of the community, complimentary to each other to maintain a healthy society. There is no Caste based values by birth, instead we can call Satvic, Rajasic or Thamasic values by birth or circumstances and environment. Morality and right living are not the exclusive domain of any Caste or Community. They are common to all. Our scriptures have repeatedly shown this.

I fully agree that caste is an artifice which was made with a view to getting cheap labour practically as if through slavery but not explicitly naming the labour class as "slaves". When you say "All are part of the community, complimentary to each other to maintain a healthy society", I think you are speaking about castes; the 'complementarity' (as different from complimentariness) was what was envisaged under chAturvarNyam, also I feel; the brahmins were at the top of the ladder and the other two dwija castes were to safeguard and provide the necessities of life to the brahmins, and the shudras were expressly considered as born to serve the commands of the dwijas. Thus there was complete complimentarity within the system.

But this idea of complimentarity ceased to appeal to human minds once the concept of "liberty, equality and fraternity", from the West came to be known in our land also. Today, therefore, even if it is not possible to immediately eradicate the classification of people on the basis of their caste of birth, equality to all citizens as given in our Constitution, is what is most cherished; notions of complementarity of castes may not work any more.

Most of our Alwars and Nayanmars are not Brahmins by birth. In our own time,Swami Vivekananda, Swami Chinmayananda, Swami Chitbavananda, Sri Narayana Guru and many more religious leaders are not Brahmins by birth.

Let us not forget the yeoman service by Nagarathaar, Mudaliars and rich people from other castes in maintaining our Veda Patasalas, Temples and Mutts. It is because of their financial help, today we have magnificent Hindu Temples functioning . Sri Ilayaraja, born Christian Daniel Rasaiah, turned devout Hindu gave his earnings to build one story of Sri Ranganathaswami Temple Raja Gopuram renovation in Srirangam at the advise of Sri Jeer Swami. If we read the autobiography of U. Ve. Saminatha Iyer we will understand how the society as a whole helped and supported him in his pursuit of search for ancient Tamil literature.

Sir, I am unable to get what relevance all the remarks above have, to the topic under discussion. The Alwars and Nayanmars were revered during the nascent days of the "Bhakti" movement but later on it was the Brahmins like Ramanuja and Vedanta Desika who came to prominence and wrote many treatises in Sanskrit language.*** In saivite branch also, the Nayanmars today are only marginally relevant to the Siva-worshipping brahmins and I usually don't hear any compositions of nayanmarss in brahmin bhajanais.

Your statement about the swamijis being from non-brahmin castes, looks like these were exceptional cases and that normally brahmins alone ought to have been swamijis. Anyway, their help/guidance was for all disciples and not for brahmins only.

We can certainly preserve and follow our cultural values, the present generation with their vast exposure and honest inquisitiveness have shown real interest in learning about our Religious beliefs and practices. I have no doubt that the future of our religious values is safe in their hands.

Please see my comments on para 2 of this post.

Let us not live in an exclusive cloister because of birth. This attitude will ruin our future generation.

ray2:

Regards,
Brahmanyan.

Actually it looks to me that the anti-reform brigade's idea is not to live in any cloister but they imagine that there is something like "brahmin culture", "brahmin genetic traits" etc., which will all be lost if pratloma marriages take place in the community; all IC marriages of brahmin girls, by definition, are pratiloma. So, unless we accept that your advice above also includes acceptance of IC marriages of our brahmin girls, your view in this matter will remain unclear.

*** Note: Kindly see corrections vide posts Nos. 42 & 45 below.

 

[sravna]

Dear Mr "Vaagmi",

We have discussed this subject many time in the past. In one of the posts I have given the following observation:

"It is true that many Brahmin Girls marry boys from other Castes (and religions) nowadays. This trend started among the rich families first and now spreading to other strata of Brahmin families too. But I don't thing it has expanded to alarming proportions as some feel. When there is a change in the Social and economic values due to increase in earning capacity of girls these type of inter mixing take place. More economic independence among the employed girls is the primary reason for this change. But the attitude of Parents are also responsible for this situation. Parents who have primary responsibility to get proper match for their daughters when they attain eligibility to get married, postpone the same for some reason or other. When the boys and girls at marriageable age are left alone in far off places to mix without control, nature takes over the responsibility of the parents and tie them into wedlock. Many times this infatuation triggered by age, is mistaken for ( instant) love and has no religious, caste or community barriers. If these marriages are out of true love between the two, our Scriptures have nothing against them, and many of these marriages are also successful, but the children out of this wedlock are the worst sufferers. Our society is not ready to accept "asavarna Prathiloma" marriages yet."

To add further, many of these love marriages happen because of external compulsions, a sort of accident. Mostly happen when the boys and girls live in big cities and foreign Countries, where there is no parental or community guidance available. Personally I believe that it needs a lot of adjustment required to be made by the pair comming from different cultural back-ground to sustain the married life in the long run. I have seen many IC and a few IR marriages in our family, most of them continue with intermittent rumblings, but few of them broke forcing to divorce.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Shri Brahmanyan's major premises and his conclusion can be stated as follows:


1. Girls have more economic independence these days. So there is a change in the economic and social values of the girls that reflect that independence and make them more inclined to make their own choices
2. In addition, parents postpone the marriage of the girls these days and also have less control over their social interactions
3. The above two factors have caused an increase in IC marriages but there is no need to be alarmed

The inference from the above is that IC marriages will reach an alarming level when the children are totally cut off from their parents or in other words from their roots and be totally independent.

Am I right in saying this Shri Brahmanyan?

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Kunjuppu and Shri Sangom,


When things happen, most of the TB people today happen to get the skills to manage with such happening, with all their common sense & love in heart for their children.

Managing the things for the sake of managing is different than living a real life to our heart content.


We are here not to discuss on how to manage with such happening of IC marriages BUT to find ways and means as much as possible, so that such things doesn't happen. This will not only help girl & boys and their children from suffering in their inter caste marriage, in due course of their life, phase by phase, while dwelling in India as lower or middle class families BUT would also help sustaining the Brahmin Community with dignity amidst all other existing community inside Indian Territory.

 

[C RAVI]

clear enough? enough of innuendos and name calling. thank you.

Shri Kunjuppu,

The point that we all need to honestly note and accept is that - name calling and innuendos were taking place in this from for a long time in "Exchange/Retaliation"

Whenever there was a topic of debate expressing concern about Brahmin community, the choices of words/terms from Reform Brigades were -

- Brahmins of today who take pride in their Brahmin identity are Hypocrites.

- All the Brahmins of today should be guilty for the doings of their forefathers.

- There is nothing in scriptures, vedas etc..etc..that Brahmins need to revere and Brahmins revering vedas are dangerous as they are intended to corrupt the minds of the present and future generation and to play havoc on other communities.

- There is nothing unique in Brahmin tradition, culture, custom, rituals etc..etc and Brahmins boasting about them and willing to follow them and willing to have them followed within the community in future generation etc. are Hilarious, Senseless, shows their backwardness to some stone age period, Superiority Complex, disrespect to other culture etc..etc.

etc..etc..etc..

As such, the Brahmins should proactively come out of all such preferences and likings and just live as an Indian, no matter other communities continue to exist or not.


That only means, wishing the Brahmin community to become extinct by taking shelter in other community, right? Because the existence of Brahmin community is in fact a Shame and Stigma to the Indian society Because they were on top of cast hierarchy and were safeguarding/revering Vedas Only to commit atrocities on other communities, right?

 

[sangom]

Shri Kunjuppu and Shri Sangom,


When things happen, most of the TB people today happen to get the skills to manage with such happening, with all their common sense & love in heart for their children.

Managing the things for the sake of managing is different than living a real life to our heart content.


We are here not to discuss on how to manage with such happening of IC marriages BUT to find ways and means as much as possible, so that such things doesn't happen. This will not only help girl & boys and their children from suffering in their inter caste marriage, in due course of their life, phase by phase, while dwelling in India as lower or middle class families BUT would also help sustaining the Brahmin Community with dignity amidst all other existing community inside Indian Territory.

Shri Ravi,

The importance that you give "to find ways and means as much as possible, so that such things (IC marriages) doesn't happen." is the major point of difference between us. The tabra society has gone in very different direction/s and it is now nearly impossible to control or put some 'fatwas' against IC marriages of our girls. Nor will suggestions like marrying off girls before they attain a lower age, etc. work. As Shri Brahmanyan says women's independence is the most important cause for our girls preferring to choose or to fall in love with Non-brahmin boys and this freedom just cannot be questioned now, because the law is also on the girls' side. From my talking to a few girls who have IC love marriages, what I understand is that they feel stifled under the hypocrisy of brahmin parents who do not practise what they preach, and secondly, they don't find anything so valuable in following the brahmin way of life. It is kind of revolt and the sad part is that many male members here (including your good self) do not seem to have had the opportunity of interacting with girls who have gone for IC marriage.

Some of the IC and IR marriages fail, some are not smooth, etc., but this is true of same-caste marriages and arranged marriages also.

Last but not least, this topic has been discussed many times in this forum but no workable decisions could be reached. Tabra girls continued their own way. Hence, it is "dogs may bark, but the caravan goes."

I am stopping my posts in this thread because there has to be some end to அரைத்த மாவையே அரைக்கிறது also.

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Ravi,

The importance that you give "to find ways and means as much as possible, so that such things (IC marriages) doesn't happen." is the majorpoint of difference between us.The tabra society has gone in very different direction/s and it is now nearly impossible to control or put some 'fatwas' against IC marriages of our girls. Nor will suggestions like marrying off girls before they attain a lower age, etc. work. As Shri Brahmanyan says women's independence is the most important cause for our girls preferring to choose or to fall in love with Non-brahmin boys and this freedom just cannot be questioned now, because the law is also on the girls' side. From my talking to a few girls who have IC love marriages, what I understand is that they feel stifled under the hypocrisy of brahmin parents who do not practise what they preach, and secondly, they don't find anything so valuable in following the brahmin way of life. It is kind of revolt and the sad part is that many male members here (including your good self) do not seem to have had the opportunity of interacting with girls who have gone for IC marriage.

Some of the IC and IR marriages fail, some are not smooth, etc., but this is true of same-caste marriages and arranged marriages also.

Last but not least, this topic has been discussed many times in this forum but no workable decisions could be reached. Tabra girls continued their own way. Hence, it is "dogs may bark, but the caravan goes."

I am stopping my posts in this thread because there has to be some end to அரைத்த மாவையே அரைக்கிறது also.

Fair enough!!

So, any thread topic on these lines, expressing concern over existing of Brahmin community, to see if possible solution can be found by openly finding faults with parenting, spirituality etc would be utter foolishness & childishness, leading to waste of cyber space of this Forum?

So, this forum, with the help of Reform Brigades, can not be pro-brahmin because of "desirable ground reality"?

As such, this TB forum can be good enough only for Mirch Masala discussion on politics, economics, Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, Language etc..etc, in this General Discussion forum?

May be this will help in non existence of any ill-will among the members!!!

Wowww, what a magnificent community!!!

 

[Nara]

..... The Alwars and Nayanmars were revered during the nascent days of the "Bhakti" movement but later on it was the Brahmins like Ramanuja and Vedanta Desika who came to prominence and wrote many treatises in Sanskrit language.

Dear sangom, I would like to comment on this specific portion of your post without getting into other issues. First, your overall point is correct, I just want to give a few additional details before you get nit picked.

All Azhvars are still revered. In the lineage of SV sampradayam starting from Sriman Narayana, Nammazhvar is the first non-celestial acharya for all sub-sects. Not a single day can pass without singing the praise of Nammazhvar. There are two important points that must be observed in this context. (i) the azhvars whose origins were unknown were given ayonija status and (ii) all azhvars are considered Nitya Soori avatarams sent down from Sri Vaikuntam by Sriman Narayana. In other words, their births are not predicated upon karma like the rest of us Bhaddha jeevas. So, SVs argue, since Azhvars with NB birth such as Nammazhvar, Thirumangai and Kulasekaran are free of the three gunas they do not belong to any varna at all.

Secondly, it is true that all of Ramanuja's texts are in Sanskrit, but SV literature is full of Tamil and Manipravla texts also. One of the most prolific in Tamil, if not the most, is Vedanta Desika. His most influential text Rahasya Thraiya Saram is in Manipravlam and he has penned more than 400 most exquisite verses on various topics that are collectively called Desika Prabhandham. A formal rendering of Desika Prabhandam is a treat to listen to. He also proclaimed himself to be Tamil Maraiyon.

regards ...

 

[sravna]

Are there tambrahm youngsters following the thread who would want to share their views?

 

[C RAVI]

Are there tambrahm youngsters following the thread who would want to share their views?

Unfortunately NO!!! As they are all in bliss as indicated by Reform Brigades..

 

[sangom]

Dear sangom, I would like to comment on this specific portion of your post without getting into other issues. First, your overall point is correct, I just want to give a few additional details before you get nit picked.

All Azhvars are still revered. In the lineage of SV sampradayam starting from Sriman Narayana, Nammazhvar is the first non-celestial acharya for all sub-sects. Not a single day can pass without singing the praise of Nammazhvar. There are two important points that must be observed in this context. (i) the azhvars whose origins were unknown were given ayonija status and (ii) all azhvars are considered Nitya Soori avatarams sent down from Sri Vaikuntam by Sriman Narayana. In other words, their births are not predicated upon karma like the rest of us Bhaddha jeevas. So, SVs argue, since Azhvars with NB birth such as Nammazhvar, Thirumangai and Kulasekaran are free of the three gunas they do not belong to any varna at all.

Secondly, it is true that all of Ramanuja's texts are in Sanskrit, but SV literature is full of Tamil and Manipravla texts also. One of the most prolific in Tamil, if not the most, is Vedanta Desika. His most influential text Rahasya Thraiya Saram is in Manipravlam and he has penned more than 400 most exquisite verses on various topics that are collectively called Desika Prabhandham. A formal rendering of Desika Prabhandam is a treat to listen to. He also proclaimed himself to be Tamil Maraiyon.

regards ...

Thank you so much, Shri Nara. I stand corrected w.r.t. my post # 36 above. I have indicated this in that post also, now.

Thanks, once again.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Shri Brahmanyan's major premises and his conclusion can be stated as follows:

1. Girls have more economic independence these days. So there is a change in the economic and social values of the girls that reflect that independence and make them more inclined to make their own choices
2. In addition, parents postpone the marriage of the girls these days and also have less control over their social interactions
3. The above two factors have caused an increase in IC marriages but there is no need to be alarmed
The inference from the above is that IC marriages will reach an alarming level when the children are totally cut off from their parents or in other words from their roots and be totally independent.
Am I right in saying this Shri Brahmanyan?

Dear Sri Srinivasan Vaidyaraman,

Yes, you have summedup my observations correctly, except that we cannot conclude that IC marriages will reach alarming level when children are cut off from parents and their roots. This is a social change, there may be a limit
for this happenings on the basis of impact of this change in the individual families of IC marriages. We cannot decide on the quantum now. I may be wrong but it is my personal view.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sri Srinivasan Vaidyaraman,

Yes, you have summedup my observations correctly, except that we cannot conclude that IC marriages will reach alarming level when children are cut off from parents and their roots. This is a social change, there may be a limit
for this happenings on the basis of impact of this change in the individual families of IC marriages. We cannot decide on the quantum now. I may be wrong but it is my personal view.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Thanks a lot Shri. Brahmanyan for the clarification

 

[Nara]

.... More economic independence among the employed girls is the primary reason for this change. But the attitude of Parents are also responsible for this situation. Parents who have primary responsibility to get proper match for their daughters when they attain eligibility to get married, postpone the same for some reason or other. When the boys and girls at marriageable age are left alone in far off places to mix without control, nature takes over the responsibility of the parents and tie them into wedlock. Many times this infatuation triggered by age, is mistaken for ( instant) love and has no religious, caste or community barriers. If these marriages are out of true love between the two, our Scriptures have nothing against them, and many of these marriages are also successful, but the children out of this wedlock are the worst sufferers. Our society is not ready to accept "asavarna Prathiloma" marriages yet.".

Dear BB (Bangalore Brahmanyan, not the other kind though your views are closer to us BB's than those who made up this moniker), I think you will agree that most parents would be concerned about their children having a happy married life -- both sons and daughters. I don't know why you mentioned only girls, but since you did I will talk about girls. Then, due to circumstances you highlighted, if a girl falls in love and wants to marry the guy, the concern of rational parents should be whether she has made the right choice for a happy marriage in the long term. In trying to assess this, I think the boy's caste and or religion is a very poor predictor. Instead of looking at the boy's caste or religion, the parents should get to know the guy and his friends. After that, if the parents have solid reasons to doubt the girl will be happy, then they should have a respectful conversation with the girl, irrespective of the boy she loves or infatuated with is of the same religion or the same caste or not, no? They should respect the girl's choice and try to be as supportive as possible. If the marriage is successful, great, but if fortune didn't favor the union, which could happen to any marriage these days, be there for her to pick up the pieces and start over.

A word about infatuation, it may very well be infatuation at this stage, but who can tell for sure that it will fade away after a while, who can tell it will not blossom into true love over time. The chances of true love developing in these cases are not any less than that in an arranged marriage. What percentage of arranged marriages result in true love and what percentage feel they have to suffer the marriage due to the taboo associated with divorce?

Lastly, IC/IR marriages are on the rise and it will only increase over time. When "asavarna Prathiloma" children grow up to be adults the society will most likely wonder what the fuss was all about.

Thank you and best regards, Dileepan

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear BB (Bangalore Brahmanyan, not the other kind though your views are closer to us BB's than those who made up this moniker), I think you will agree that most parents would be concerned about their children having a happy married life -- both sons and daughters. I don't know why you mentioned only girls, but since you did I will talk about girls. Then, due to circumstances you highlighted, if a girl falls in love and wants to marry the guy, the concern of rational parents should be whether she has made the right choice for a happy marriage in the long term. In trying to assess this, I think the boy's caste and or religion is a very poor predictor. Instead of looking at the boy's caste or religion, the parents should get to know the guy and his friends. After that, if the parents have solid reasons to doubt the girl will be happy, then they should have a respectful conversation with the girl, irrespective of the boy she loves or infatuated with is of the same religion or the same caste or not, no? They should respect the girl's choice and try to be as supportive as possible. If the marriage is successful, great, but if fortune didn't favor the union, which could happen to any marriage these days, be there for her to pick up the pieces and start over.

A word about infatuation, it may very well be infatuation at this stage, but who can tell for sure that it will fade away after a while, who can tell it will not blossom into true love over time. The chances of true love developing in these cases are not any less than that in an arranged marriage. What percentage of arranged marriages result in true love and what percentage feel they have to suffer the marriage due to the taboo associated with divorce?

Lastly, IC/IR marriages are on the rise and it will only increase over time. When "asavarna Prathiloma" children grow up to be adults the society will most likely wonder what the fuss was all about.

Thank you and best regards, Dileepan

Dear Sri "Nara",

That is a good one. But I do not want to earn a new moniker BB. Let me be a simple B from BNG.
I have quoted my reply from my earlier post (if I remember correctly) about Girls marrying out side the community.
If it is infatuation it will fade away, otherwise the bond may blossom into love which may continue for ever.


Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[Vaagmi]

Kunjuppu's #35:

Dear Kunjuppu,

if it happens accept it. IC marriages are no more different than within caste in many respects, though IR has more adjustments.

If it has happened it has happened. Why do you want that to be accepted? Does it need the seal of approval? As I said already almost all the IC/IR marriages are fait accompli. IC/IR marriages are certainly different from the SC/SR marriages in many respects. Particularly the amount of pain it brings on the parents and the devastation it leaves behind in the family. I do not understand why this fact is repeatedly obfuscated here.

arranged IC marriages? all we are saying, as a last resort, if you dont have a spouse in your own caste. and bring up the kids as brahmins, so that your culture is passed on to the next generation. dont cast casteist prejudice on those who do it, and arrange to have your child married to one of scuh. or would you not do that?

Every case is not a last resort case. It is not as easy as that. It requires a tremendous amount of eating of crow. The inability to accept IC/IR marriages is not out of prejudice. That is a different thing. It is just out of concern for the future.

MANAGE the change. the key word is MANAGE. that is the call of this 1/3 of reform brigade dont run away from change, or pretend the change does not exist. worse, dont try to turn back the clock.

Manage the change? Yes. But at our pace and on acceptable terms. Not on terms imposed on us. If every thing that is thrust on is to be accepted then there is no need for management. What is needed is obedience and enforcement. This is where we differ from the reform brigade. The reform brigade has accepted defeat already and is ever ready with a recommendation and advice to crawl when asked to just bend a little. We do not agree with them. We think we change with times at our own pace and after a proper evaluation of the pressure and need for change.

clear enough? enough of innuendos and name calling. thank you.

We are always very clear about it. We only hope it is clear to every one here. I choose to leave the rest of the sentence without a response. Thanks.