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Some patients discreetly record doctors’ advice

  • Thread starter Thread starter V.Balasubramani
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V.Balasubramani

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I would like to share this news item with the members. Recording advice of Doctors discreetly is ethical?

CHENNAI: Most patients waiting outside doctors' cabins use their phones to text, surf the internet, and post messages. Now, some of them have started using their phones to record conversations with doctors to be doubly sure of the advice, but the practice, often done without the doctor's consent, has ruffled physicians.

Doctors said an increasing number of patients are discreetly recording conversations on diagnosis, consent, medication, treatment and follow-ups. Last week, a pediatrician in Chennai saw the mother of a six-year-old child reach out for a mobile and discreetly hit the record button.

"She never asked me if she could do that. Even if she did, I would have refused, because I am uncomfortable. When I am being recorded, I measure my words. It doesn't work," said the pediatrician. The doctor asked the woman and the child to leave his clinic.


The doctor said the option of recording could be tempting for patients who don't understand medical terms. The woman was stressed over her child's health for nearly a week, and she was scared that she may not be attentive to what the doctor said. She thought the recording would be useful for her husband, who could not make it to the clinic that day. But the pediatrician felt it put his practice at risk, as something inadvertently said could be used against him.
"Recording such a conversation is a breach of confidentiality and infringement on privacy of doctors," said Tamil Nadu State Medical Council president Dr K Prakasam.

Dr J Mohanasundaram, former dean Madras Medical College, said it is illegal to discreetly record any conversation. "It gets worse when it is a doctor-patient conversation. The basic trust is lost. Instead of making clarification with the doctor, patients may take a second opinion," he said.

The state medical council, along with the state wing of the Indian Medical Association, is planning to write to the state health department in this regard. They want the health department to make amendments to the Tamil Nadu Medicare Service Persons and Medicare Service Institutions (Prevention of Violence and Damage to Property) Act, 2008 to make discreet recording of such conversations an offence. Doctors associations are planning to prepare posters to create awareness. They have also asked doctors to post signs in their clinics banning the practice.

However, some doctors do record their conversations with their paients, with their consent. Gastric surgeon Dr S M Chandramohan sees benefits in recording conversations when they are done with the consent of the patient.

"I have been doing this for 10 years now. It empowers my patients. I email the recordings to them. Many are happy to listen to it at leisure," said Dr Chandramohan. His patients are free to play the tape to other doctors for a second opinion. "It has helped his patients make crucial decisions," he said.




Courtesy: The Times of India Oct 25, 2013,
 
Yes..this is a real problem.
I have noted patients doing this.

So it put stress on the doctor cos some patients are rude and start to argue and then start recording hoping doctor will react back to them..these people even put stuff on You Tube!

One has to be very careful when dealing with anyone these days.

Some patients these days even text/sms and are on Facebook while being in consultation room..some get angry when you tell them to switch off the phone.

So I just have to be very careful with patients and talk very less if patient is holding a phone.

I dont want to land up in You Tube!
 
Now clinics & doctors consultation rooms should also have a banner like "Turn OFF Your Cell Phone". :D

no-cell-phone-sign.webp
 
Yes..this is a real problem.
I have noted patients doing this.

So it put stress on the doctor cos some patients are rude and start to argue and then start recording hoping doctor will react back to them..these people even put stuff on You Tube!

One has to be very careful when dealing with anyone these days.

Some patients these days even text/sms and are on Facebook while being in consultation room..some get angry when you tell them to switch off the phone.

So I just have to be very careful with patients and talk very less if patient is holding a phone.

I dont want to land up in You Tube!


Mam,

This sort of practices can be effectively tackled by installing mobile jammers inside the premises. But the disadvantage is, when an emergency situation arises, one may not be able to communicate with anybody bcos the mobile phone is already disabled, then one has to necessarily depend only upon landlines.



With regards
 
Dear Sir,

I really dislike people using mobile for everything.

Then there are patients who do not want us to check them for conditions like rashes on private area and they take pics of themselves and show the doctor to diagnose them.

It is not the same as seeing a rash with your own eyes..so for these types of patients I tell them I cant rely on images..I want to see with my own eyes before giving treatment.

Some bring pics of their relatives and show..he has this etc..prescribe some medication.

All these types I do not entertain..technology should not replace a doctor seeing a patient
 
Dear Sir,

I really dislike people using mobile for everything.

Then there are patients who do not want us to check them for conditions like rashes on private area and they take pics of themselves and show the doctor to diagnose them.

It is not the same as seeing a rash with your own eyes..so for these types of patients I tell them I cant rely on images..I want to see with my own eyes before giving treatment.

Some bring pics of their relatives and show..he has this etc..prescribe some medication.

All these types I do not entertain..technology should not replace a doctor seeing a patient


Mam,

Lot has been said and being discussed about the illeffect of Mobile phone radiation on human health.

Now, with these developments of Recording, Photo pictures, Face book, etc there seems to be other harmful side for these Mobile Phones usage.

You are right, Mam, technology should not replace a Doctor physically examining a patient for diagnosis


With regards.
 
I wish to share my recent experience here. My extremely active, two and half year old granddaughter was left in my

care for two days, when her mom had to go out for shopping with her mom, soon after giving breakfast to the child! This

little one refused to eat properly and had only spoonfuls of juice and absolutely no solids till her mom returned. On the

second day afternoon she started stumbling down while walking and started to crawl like an infant! When her mom returned

in the evening she was startled and wanted to take the child to the nearest hospital. I refused bluntly because I know how the

Sing Chennai hospitals fleece people of money by admitting in to ICU! I asked my d i l to wait till 5 pm for my brother to return

from hospital and 'skype' with him. After seeing the child and confirming that there is no fever or vomiting, he assured that it

is ONLY because of less salt intake!! Advised to just give her a few ounces of juice with a pinch of salt and give her some salty

chips. Also call him back, if she does not get better within two hours. Lo and behold!! The little girl started running around

as usual within one hour of taking some salt! It was really amazing to watch.

When I told this to my doctor aunt, she smiled and told me, 'That is why we should take everything with a pinch of salt!' ;)
 
Dear RR ji,

I hope you dont mind me saying this...I can say that in that case you mentioned..it was good that the diagnosis was correct.

But just a word of caution here..next time in such cases don't make the child wait till evening to see a doctor..cos you see there are multiple possibilities here when a child turns lethargic..stumbles down and crawls:

1)Low Blood Sugar levels (Hypoglycemia) seen when children miss meals for too long hours..Extremely dangerous can be fatal.

2)Low Potassium levels ..also extremely dangerous...can be fatal.

3)Low Sodium levels..the lesser devil but still needs monitoring.


So it is always better for a child to be taken to a trusted hospital or doctor for a check up.

I am writing this cos in the case you mentioned the child was fine after taking salts but in case anyone else reads this an assumes every case is becos of low sodium ..and they might miss a low blood sugar or low potassium level which might prove fatal.

It is always better to think of worst case scenario at times so that we do not miss anything.
 
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in delhi the doctors don't fear the mobile at all, u see, because the patient does all the talking, the doctor just grunts and is busy writing the prescription, and all he manages to say the whole times is 'Next'

I really don't know what all the fuss is about, if all professions are being pushed to the wall with more and more scrutiny, the one profession which has such a deep impact on the life of a person, has to be equally subject to deep scrutiny.

Balances like in the US does not exist to deter malpractice. Today a doctor in india makes around 50% from his consults, around 20% from diagnostic and cross consult referrals, and another 20% from drug companies and makers of implants and stents. Over medication and diagnostics are the norm. If the doctor is workin for a institution he makes a bonus from medical equipment makes for obtaining orders for key equipment, like endoscopes, ultrasound machines, OT equipment like cautery and other high end equipment

unfortunately inspite of all these practices, he is not able to financially break even on the 75 L capitation fee that he needs to pay for his post graduation, leave alone his expense for doing his MBBS

no wonder they are an agitated lot.

today a doctor in a metro,(except for a few high end clinicians) make less than a second rung management graduate or a IT professional, after having spent around 7-8 years more that the other streams in completing the education.

A babu starts packing up by 4.30, and is in tenterhooks for the next half an hour, and is home by 6. with a 5 day week to boot, and innumerable holidays and leaves, whereas the doctors are one of the most hard working community in india, no timings, sometimes no weekly offs, some of them working both shifts in two hospitals. day in one and night in the other. night calls and high expectations highlight the career of a doctor,

all these problems have to be solved before we can expect the doctors to become more honest towards their profession.
 
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Sir,

IMHO Doctors profession is a noble service and hence cannot be compared with any other professions, especially in terms of revenue earned. In this regard it is more appropriate I believe to share this article here.

Doctor's Day: Still a noble profession? by Anoop Kohli

From a certain perspective, I have a few doubts. Over the years, I have for instance, seen the ratio of a fresh budding rose with a tagged card, the usual souvenir, getting higher from the pharma industry, and much less from the patients one treats. Surely, there are those miraculous cases where one worked in a frenzy, watched each day the condition on the ventilator, with tons of patience to explain to the kin, that yes, it was still worth it, fighting all second, third, fourth and fifth opinions, and finally see the patient survive to normal conditions. These are the ones who celebrate your day every four months they see you, but even if they forget, these are the richest memories you can preserve in your heart, when everything else falls apart, or you suddenly confront your hour of reckoning, and you have that little bit to add and say, that maybe, once you were a good man and a good doctor!


Yes, perhaps we are not that highly held in public opinion, as we knew and heard of high reputations of doctors at a younger age, when there was hardly a reason to obsess oneself with a particular profession. There are reasons. Most specialists today work in large setups, because medicine has diversified into so many branches, that it is medically and sometimes legally necessary to take a multi-specialty consult to rule in, and more often to rule out, another system involvement. In a corporate setup this means so much more in costs, and so much more in procedures, not to mention the recorded incidence of complications. The patient sees his commonsense input vs output equation corrupted. A scientifically and ethically correct approach surely comes under disrepute.


I would come to the three important performance sectors where I think opinions about a medical man are made. In order, they are professionalism, wise decision making and communication skills required under the circumstances, and finally the value for money factor.


Most corporate hospitals in India, as the terminology has come to be, are well staffed in high specialization areas. Procedures like coronary bypass, angioplasty, stroke, neurosurgery, organ transplants would just not run if the hospital fails to deliver what are standard success rates. The costs of these procedures are high, and there are various teams of professionals that are involved in assessment of patient safety, post-operative management and rehabilitation from the point of hospitalization till discharge. In the absence of adequate insurance coverage, and any slip in the continuous chain of management, even a minor infection can prolong ICU stay, and the costs may double due to a single complication alone. Infections are a big cause of worry, and hospitals are trying the best practices to curtail them, but I understand the extra billing, the complication itself, spreads fast and furious. This is just an example, the message is that a high-cost system can trip or delay for any reason (though that is not an excuse), and on a tight budget, leaves sufficient room for a family to feel distressed.


The second parameter, "wisdom and appropriate communication skills", I believe is a core value that can restore a better bonding between the patient and the doctor. Here the doctor can score for the profession, because working systems around him are seen apart from his personal standing. Quite often what are minor complaints for a patient, may actually require rather elaborate and expensive investigations. A prolonged, unremitting fever, can at times ask for loads of investigations. Here, the approach can be more transparent, and taking the patient into confidence, a practitioner may go for stepwise investigations, taking full safety, and reducing overall costs. In busy hospital clinics some professionals find little time to go so meticulously, and may see wisdom in a panel of investigations in one go. Let me admit, a lot of patients actually like to be overinvestigated, taking the extra load of blood samples and screening and imaging studies as a reflection of a doctor's vast knowledge! These are the same lot who spend twice the amount on quackery. There certainly is a subset that cherishes expensive medicine! From the patient's point of view, hospitals offer health package screening tests, and put together, such a battery of tests comes at half the cost than the add-up costs of individual tests. A specialist can be chosen after such a screening.


Do hospitals and doctors have a pre-set target in terms of revenue generation and the load is passed on to the patient? I have no firsthand knowledge on this, which includes my training period in Europe, UK, and the US. What I do know is that any health setup has to run in profits, or it automatically ceases to be. Government aided healthcare as in Europe or the NHS give you ready access to the family physician. Beyond that, for major surgeries, even routine surgeries, the family practitioner is clearly given guidelines about his "gatekeeper" functions. An 'up' referral may be denied or delayed on 'merit'. Waiting lists for procedures as prostate or hernia surgeries may have waiting times in weeks or months.


In the US, departments and research groups after a certain level of expenses provided by the hospital, are often asked to take more referrals in their indoor as well as outdoor facilities, to hit a certain target not so much as a commercial commitment, but to justify expenses. Quite a few of these top-rated clinical and research scientists actually have to fend for themselves through research grants.


If you talk about India, I believe hospitals have now started keeping trained personnel in medical marketing and increase referrals by organizing CMEs, bidding for health cover of employees from private as well as public sector undertakings. With medical tourism picking up, other countries are also tapped for giving services at competitive rates, even holding periodic clinics in foreign lands. The private sector due to visions of some legendary single individuals or industry-backed hospitals setups certainly has been the only viable health sector for the rich and poor alike, though paradoxically, the talent has come from a few well equipped government run institutes, with their unbelievably massive turnover, and continuously nurtured talent.


There is a term I cannot set aside, as I have heard and pondered over many times. You hear this remark that a particular professional is "money minded". Can't really decipher the full meaning, but I believe, that behind all that goes on between a doctor and a patient, the patient does form opinions regarding the number of times fee is charged, investigations asked for, and an overall feeling that more time and money is repeatedly spent to get a desired result. However, this rarely has an inverse relation to burgeoning practice the individual may have. Therefore, perhaps I have still not got it right!


Doctors today may not enjoy reputations of the "next to God" category, or may not be known as messiahs to alleviate the sufferings of mankind. If they stick to being professional, and have the wisdom to apply their training to give the best results to their patients, a few extra costs may not matter. At the same time, corporate paradigms have to accommodate the essential concept of "affordability".


Begum Akhtar, India's incomparable ghazal singer, succumbed to a massive heart attack many years ago, while performing in Ahmedabad. She was shifted to the V.S. Hospital, where many years later I was to do my internship.


Her take on medicine,


"Mujhe rehene de merey haal par, tera kya bharosa charagar,


Teri ik nigah mukhtasar, mera dard kahin badha na de…"


( Leave me the way I am, how do I rely on you doctor (beloved one, here)


( Even a short glance from you, may actually increase my heart-ache)

The last line was suitably changed in one of our functions to,


"Teri ik 'visit' mukhtsar, mera 'bill' kahin badha na de…"


( Even a short visit from you may actually escalate my bill)


Happy Patient's Day, which is the way it should be!\


Good day.

With regards
 




Courtesy: The Times of India/30 June 2013
 
............ It is always better to think of worst case scenario at times so that we do not miss anything.
Dear Renu,

What you have written is very true.

But you don't know about hospitals in Sing. Chennai. Since the 'family doctor' concept has almost vanished, the hospitals

tend to do unnecessary tests and over drug the patients. That was my fear. And I trust my brother 100% :)

My dad who was practicing in a village used to diagnose very accurately just by examining the patient and knowing the

symptoms. Sometimes I feel that the advancement in technology has made doctors so dumb that even for a simple cold

which needs SEVEN days to cure without drugs and just ONE week to cure with drugs (!) scans are recommended by many

doctors!! :dizzy:

P.S: The calculators have made most of the people forget simple arithmetic! :)
 
My b i l was working in a place called Singampunari. When his child was taken for treatment, the doctor heard the place of work

as Singapore! He coolly said, 'Oh! Singapore! Then I can charge in dollars!!'
 
Sir,

IMHO Doctors profession is a noble service and hence cannot be compared with any other professions, especially in terms of revenue earned. In this regard it is more appropriate I believe to share this article here.......

Nice Article, nicely sugar coated and written to defend doctors. No body is denying the high cost of healthcare in a private setup. None are questioning the higher cost of quality (higher cost of branded drugs, avoiding reuse of certain gadgets and consumables, cost of necessary investigations) etc.

The article greatly celebrates the ideal state, in which things should be. Not the reality.

Its a common knowledge that every stent company has a rate list of the fees to be paid to the consultant for placing a stent (therefore don't be surprised if you are administered 3 stents instead of 2). And there is no exception to the rule all doctors take it.

Every GP, gets a share from the Lab & Radiological setup for all investigations ordered from the clinic, like clock work on the 3rd of the month.

The easiest way to sell a high end lazer costing crores to a institute is to catch hold of the HOD of the department who will do all the leg work for the company selling the equipment. and when sold, if the HOD quits his job in say 7 months, the next doctor promply certifies the earlier lazer as useless, and wants a new lazer made by the competitor.

If one lists out the Doctors going out of the country for so called conferences, it would run into pages, its a open secret who is funding all these conclaves, in lot many cases the family accompanies these doctors to all these exotic locations.

There are now formal marketing firms which 'place' patients to large hospitals for a fee.

Smaller nursing homes milk the patients, and when medicaly the patient is no where near being cured, he is transferred to a larger hospital, for a fee.

The entire network runs on doctors..

the need and justificaitons I have already enumerated, end of the day, its no more a noble profession. yes the work in itself, connotes a greater sense of achievement....of that having saved a life, but nothing more nothing less.

If a guy went into IT scoring 89% and standing 4th in the class, and spends 3 years in his education, its only fair to expect that the person who scored 100% and stood 1st in the class and send 7 years in his studies, earn more than the former. This is not the case

a MBBS (RMO) earns around 60 K in the market, and if he does not do his postgraduation he is standard in his life at that salary, the only alternative is that he does night duty for a smaller nursing home for a similar amount, or dish out 1 cr for a MD seat.
 
When the implant of defibrillator to cure a type of heart problem was found, Ram's brother-in-law was one of the first 'guinea pig's! :sad:

The famous doctor in a famous hospital implanted one in him and assured that everything will be alright. Articles by this doctor

appeared on all the leading dailies, bragging about his achievement, referring to this case - reducing b i l's age by a decade, as 60.

The doctor had failed to notice a block in the main artery which needed a bypass surgery and gave wrong treatment, costing in lakhs!

Sadly, b i l survived only for a few months because the blocked artery could not take the pressure given by the implanted tiny

machine which send mild shocks across. He had a massive, fatal heart attack! If this had happened in the U S of A, probably

the family could have sued the doctor and made some millions of dollars!
 
my ANALYSIS:

1. if a patient wants to record without a docs knowledge, there is nothing a doc can do about it. in high quality properly managed hospitals, real patient compensaton in the form of money is only 10% whiich is 1/10 of all the SERIOUS court cases.

2. DEFIBRILLATOR: rythm problem in the heart is more of an emrgency then a heart artery block which has occured 3 months down the line. i am not a cardiologist, but a heart angiogram is done only when there are clear indications. i dont know if they do angiogram before all defibrillator insertion

3. FLU: 7 day concept for FLU is still true, BUT cannot be extrapolated to all illnesses!!

4. for a doctor a public patient and private patient are all the same.he should know his system (public or private) very well. new laws in Europe necessitate doctors to work less hours, otherwise like the pilot he is going to commit errors.

5. REGARDING PROFESSION: every doctor is a human first, service person next and more importantly an astute business man.

common if i say (no offence intended for disucssion sake),
the IT profession is the most boring of the lot and
a sastrigal is the most idiotic and
the mathematician are the most unrealistic of the lot.

what would u say?
 
I dont know why a doctors profession alone should be considered noble.

Its no big deal..its just like any other profession where service is rendered to the client and client pays for the service rendered.

Medical profession is not a place for emotions etc..just do the work..see the patient..dont cheat the patient..make sure patient does not die..and patient gets well..no law suit for doctor..doc gets his/her fee and everyone is happy.

Out here we have guidelines by the medical council with regards with minimum and maximum fee so you can not really try stunts by overcharging patients...cos the matter will be flashed in the newspapers right up to the ministry if a patients felt he was overcharged.

Every profession in the world is noble if done within its Dharma..right from Prostitution to Neurosurgery.
 
Every GP, gets a share from the Lab & Radiological setup for all investigations ordered from the clinic, like clock work on the 3rd of the month.

Nope..I dont know about India but out here no GP gets a share for anything when we send blood investigations to lab or do Radiological procedures.

For Xrays..patients pay the Xray centre directly..GP does not get involved.

For lab..just say a blood test for Full Blood Count..the lab gives us 2 books..1 is doctors price and the other is patients price.

For FBC..The doctor has to pay the lab RM 15 for it.

The patient is charged RM 25.

So doctor gets RM 10 thats all.

There is no fee splitting or fee sharing with lab.

Out here medical pratice licence of a doctor can be revoked if anyone indulges in fee splitting.
 
One lady doctor will accept the test done only in one lab specified by her.

Later on I knew about a 'cut' she receives from the lab! It is normal in Sing. Chennai.

The lab technician will ask for the name of the doctor who gave the referral of that lab.

BTW, free prescription pads are provided to doctors by some medical shops with the shop's name printed at the bottom.
 
Some medical shops give fake bills for costly drugs, after selling cosmetic products for the same amount!

One of my cousins who submits medicine bills at her office buys all her cosmetics from medical shops!! :dizzy:
 
I dont know why a doctors profession alone should be considered noble.


Mam,

As one Graduates Doctor degree, he is required to take 'The Oath'. On this day, as I graduate as a physician, I take this oath I shall practise the art and science of medicine honestly, sincerely and to the best of my ability and judgement..................................................................

I don't think any other profession insist for any such Oath.

This Oath has its own importance and siginificance. Hence it is a noble profession, I believe.


With regards


 

P.S: Leave alone the Judges and Minister. For other professionals I hope they have an
obligation, which is not an oath but a solemn expression of intention, is ...
 
Hi!
IMHO it is WRONG to record anybody, be it a doc, a lawyer, a teacher or even (or especially) a friend, if this is done surreptitiously. Of course, if it is with the consent of the doc, that's fine, but I don't see that happening. Would any of us, in any job or profession, like to be recorded? I know as a writer that when you interview anyone famous or otherwise for a newspaper or magazine article, you always ask their permission before recording. Recording without permission is a breach of faith. I don't blame docs for being up in arms against this practice.
 
Mam,

As one Graduates Doctor degree, he is required to take 'The Oath'. On this day, as I graduate as a physician, I take this oath I shall practise the art and science of medicine honestly, sincerely and to the best of my ability and judgement..................................................................

I don't think any other profession insist for any such Oath.

This Oath has its own importance and siginificance. Hence it is a noble profession, I believe.


With regards


 

P.S: Leave alone the Judges and Minister. For other professionals I hope they have an
obligation, which is not an oath but a solemn expression of intention, is ...

Dear Sir,

As a doctor I took that oath..but I just recited it becos its part of the procedure.

To be frank sir..one does not need any oath to do any job well.

If we have a conscience its more than enough.

The problem is people expect a doctor to be like God ..praise the doc when things go right and blame the doc when things go wrong...after years of being a doctor..one knows how to adjust to make sure we just do our job and not be bothered about praise or blame but keep eyes open for a law suit!

That is why I feel its is very easy for a doctor to be detached and more philosophical..we practice detachment everyday!
 
Hi!
IMHO it is WRONG to record anybody, be it a doc, a lawyer, a teacher or even (or especially) a friend, if this is done surreptitiously. Of course, if it is with the consent of the doc, that's fine, but I don't see that happening. Would any of us, in any job or profession, like to be recorded? I know as a writer that when you interview anyone famous or otherwise for a newspaper or magazine article, you always ask their permission before recording. Recording without permission is a breach of faith. I don't blame docs for being up in arms against this practice.

Dear Padders Ji,

Further more if anyone wants to record me...he/she better get my consent and inform me well ahead so that I can dress up extra nice and make sure I look good in the video!LOL
 
Dear Balasubramani Ji,

I have noticed in college that males usually get emotional when taking Oath!

They will be all teary eyed and feel so emotional..girs just recite the oath without feeling emotional..but as I said sir..emotions are no use in this profession.

Most of the guys who were getting emotional have become the most money minded doctors as I know off today..cos you see may be they became emotional for themselves thinking that they need more money for themselves!LOL

Emotions is a double edged sword..when we feel too much for others we spell ruin for ourselves and when we feel too much for ourselves we spell ruin for others.

So its better to just do our duty without any emotional attachment ..after all we can still be loving and caring without being unduly attached to anyone.
 
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What Renu writes is very true! Doctors can't treat when they are emotional.

My dad who is an expert in giving painless injections, refused to give intravenous drips to my sister's son

who was vomiting profusely and was about to get dehydrated! Dad rushed the kid to the nearest nursing home.
 
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