[Sri Vaishnava] Samasrayanam (Pancha Samskaram) do's and dont's?

[CHANDRU1849]

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Part 2 of the 2 part presentation:
Let us not bother about any iyengar who refuses to pray to a Shiva, who refuses to eat in a saivites house, who refuses to name his children with names like Subrahmanyan, Sivakumar, Natarajan etc., Let us live with what we believe in and let him live with what he believes in. There is nothing superior or inferior in this whole exercise. A rose by any other name will smell as sweet. Similarly God (not Gods) by any name (not names) will remain just God.

This reply is also due to questioning of secular credentials of Iyengars from true Iyers like me. Worshippers of Lord Shiva have been only following this and are definitely more secular.

ANBE SHIVAM.

 

[tbs]

hi

when i was in palakkad agraharams....generally palakkad agraharams smarthas...some are vadamas...some are chozhiya agraharams...

chozhiyas are not considered as smarthas...i never heard abt iyengar in palakkad...even though we are keethu naamakkara

smarthas...means look like iyengars....but not srivaishnavas..we are smarthas...i heard abt iyengars very late...when i landed

in thirupati for my college studies..i learned abt tengalai/vadagalai etc....still many smarthas never considered iyengars as brahmins

at all....a separate category like chozhiyas...

 

[sangom]

How were Iyengars allowed to live in Agraharams. Were they not meant only for Iyers, considering the name?

What do u mean by broadminded views?

In the early 70s, when K V Jagannathan (KEE VAA JAA) was the editor of Kalaimagal, he published story about Saivite Vaishnavite wars.

In one story: a Chettiar was talking to an Iyengar in his house. The child in the house obliged nature's call (two bathroom). The Iyengar asked the Chettiar to pour some Vibhuthi on the human waste. The Chettiar shot a reply and told the Iyengar to call Vishnu in Varahara (Pig) avatara to clean it. LOL

I cannot say how or why and from which period Iyengars were allowed to live amongst Iyers in the same agrahaaram; the name agrahaaram means a double row of houses, parallel, but with a temple of some hindu deity at one end, usually on the eastern end. But there are agrahaarams without any such te,ple, those which have the temple at the west end, streets lying north-south and so on, that, ultimately agrahaaram became, simply, any brahmin street, I suppose.

As you may know, Vaishnavas belong to a cult within the larger panaroma of hinduism and the deadly fights between the Iyer brahmins and vaishnavas is there in history. Both sides were ruthless whenever circumstances favoured them and the vaishnavas held on more strongly to their cultic existences. My grandfather and people of his generation did not take very pleasingly to Iyers trying to socializing with Iyengars, but my memories are from the fifties when the ideas of freedom, Gandhi, Congress, Bharathiar (jAthi iraNTozhia vERillai) etc., had a better influence on people than today. So, possibly the Iyers allowed Iyengars to stay amidst them. That's all I can say now.

 

[Vaagmi]

The question:

How were Iyengars allowed to live in Agraharams. Were they not meant only for Iyers, considering the name?

and the answer:

I cannot say how or why and from which period Iyengars were allowed to live amongst Iyers in the same agrahaaram; the name agrahaaram means a double row of houses, parallel, but with a temple of some hindu deity at one end, usually on the eastern end. But there are agrahaarams without any such te,ple, those which have the temple at the west end, streets lying north-south and so on, that, ultimately agrahaaram became, simply, any brahmin street, I suppose.
As you may know, Vaishnavas belong to a cult within the larger panaroma of hinduism and the deadly fights between the Iyer brahmins and vaishnavas is there in history. Both sides were ruthless whenever circumstances favoured them and the vaishnavas held on more strongly to their cultic existences. My grandfather and people of his generation did not take very pleasingly to Iyers trying to socializing with Iyengars, but my memories are from the fifties when the ideas of freedom, Gandhi, Congress, Bharathiar (jAthi iraNTozhia vERillai) etc., had a better influence on people than today. So, possibly the Iyers allowed Iyengars to stay amidst them. That's all I can say now.

presume that Iyers were in a position to allow or disallow Iyengars from living in an agraharam. This is not borne by facts. This is perhaps a pet and fond imagination of the two iyer gentlemen here. Iyengars lived in agraharams on their own right. They never depended on any permission granted to them by any iyer. And there were kannadiga and telugu brahmins too who lived in these agraharams without seeking any permission from any iyer.

The agraharam in Tamilnadu were mostly an east west street if it was small one street agraharam and with streets around the temple in the centre if it were a larger agraharam. At the west end of the street a Perumal temple and at the eastern end (facing south) a shiva temple used to be a must. A ganapathy temple at the south-west corner (kanni moolai), a Kali/Durga temple in the northern perimeter, and several lesser deities in the outer perimeter were the vastu lakshanam of these villages.

 

[JR]

Dear JR,

You used the word True Vaishnava..can there be a Pseudo Vaishnava?

I dont think so isnt it?

One drop of Lord Vishnu is so potent that it makes everything pure.

Remember the story of Ravan where he was asked why didnt he take the form of Lord Rama an approach Seeta?

To which he said if he were to take the form of Lord Rama..he will become like Rama.

So you see technically a Pseudo Vaishnava can not exists..Yad Bhavam Tat Bhavati.

Renuka,

A true Vaishnava is one who does not denigrate other devatas, while practicing sincere devotion to Sriman Narayana day-in and day-out.

Somewhere I read the excellent quote, "One does not belittle the Copper that is sold next door if he is selling Gold". Similarly a true Vaishnava does not throw mud on other devata worship if he thinks Sriman Narayana is beyond all.

Thanks,

 

[renuka]

Similarly a true Vaishnava does not throw mud on other devata worship if he thinks Sriman Narayana is beyond all.

Thanks,

JR,

Going by this definition then I wonder how many Vaishnavas are there?

When I was in India I remember reading a magazine where a Iyer woman married an Iyengar guy(love marriage) wrote about a funny incident.

She said her husband would never follow her to a Shiva temple and he told her he will never step into one at all.

So once he dropped her off outside a Shiva temple and he waited at the streets near by.

Then he heard many people shouting that a raging bull was running in the streets.

Then the bull came right towards him and he ran into the Shiva temple to save himself.

Then the wife told him looks as if Nandi brought you here and after that he started following his wife to the Shiva temple.

 

[JR]

JR,

Going by this definition then I wonder how many Vaishnavas are there?

When I was in India I remember reading a magazine where a Iyer woman married an Iyengar guy(love marriage) wrote about a funny incident.

She said her husband would never follow her to a Shiva temple and he told her he will never step into one at all.

So once he dropped her off outside a Shiva temple and he waited at the streets near by.

Then he heard many people shouting that a raging bull was running in the streets.

Then the bull came right towards him and he ran into the Shiva temple to save himself.

Then the wife told him looks as if Nandi brought you here and after that he started following his wife to the Shiva temple.

Good story!

Men should be tolerant and not freak out at the prospect of his wife attending different-sect temples, and should not take to narrow-mindedness that children should belong to this sect or that sect in cases of mixed-sect marriages, one should be broad-minded to think either sect is good. Afterall, how many practice spirituality for the sake of spirituality? For most commoners going to temples, it is 'want of this' or 'want of that' which motivates them, which gods of either sect would give them! (LOL).

 

[CHANDRU1849]

I cannot say how or why and from which period Iyengars were allowed to live amongst Iyers in the same agrahaaram; the name agrahaaram means a double row of houses, parallel, but with a temple of some hindu deity at one end, usually on the eastern end. But there are agrahaarams without any such te,ple, those which have the temple at the west end, streets lying north-south and so on, that, ultimately agrahaaram became, simply, any brahmin street, I suppose.

As you may know, Vaishnavas belong to a cult within the larger panaroma of hinduism and the deadly fights between the Iyer brahmins and vaishnavas is there in history. Both sides were ruthless whenever circumstances favoured them and the vaishnavas held on more strongly to their cultic existences. My grandfather and people of his generation did not take very pleasingly to Iyers trying to socializing with Iyengars, but my memories are from the fifties when the ideas of freedom, Gandhi, Congress, Bharathiar (jAthi iraNTozhia vERillai) etc., had a better influence on people than today. So, possibly the Iyers allowed Iyengars to stay amidst them. That's all I can say now.

Sir, what is the meaning of Agrahaaram, more particularly the word 'HARAM'? Unless one knows the real meaning of Agrahaaram, it is difficult to establish the exact identity of it.

May be 'Haram' means Lord Shiva and since Iyers worship both Shiva and Vishnu, they might have had temples of both in their streets. Subsequently, Iyers might have allowed Iyengars to live in their streets, possibly because of the tag called Brahmin.

The Vathima villages in Tanjore District definitely have agrahaarams and there is a place called Ganapathy Agrahaaram near Kumbakonam and it is not known whether only Iyers are living in those agrahaarams.

However, on thing is certain that in those days there were separate streets for various caste groups.

 

[sangom]

Sir, what is the meaning of Agrahaaram, more particularly the word 'HARAM'? Unless one knows the real meaning of Agrahaaram, it is difficult to establish the exact identity of it.

May be 'Haram' means Lord Shiva and since Iyers worship both Shiva and Vishnu, they might have had temples of both in their streets. Subsequently, Iyers might have allowed Iyengars to live in their streets, possibly because of the tag called Brahmin.

The Vathima villages in Tanjore District definitely have agrahaarams and there is a place called Ganapathy Agrahaaram near Kumbakonam and it is not known whether only Iyers are living in those agrahaarams.

However, on thing is certain that in those days there were separate streets for various caste groups.

Shri Chandru Sir,

I have been told by elders that the word agra+haaram means first & foremost, chief, and haaram=garland and that the brahmins' houses in two neat rows with the temple sort of connecting them at one end, looks very much like any flower garland with its pendent-like bunch spread on a surface.

As I said before, the more elderly people did not quite favour Iyers socializing with Iyengars, but I think by the 1950's with the advent of Independence, there was more of a freedom for everyone. There was no street exclusively for Iyengars in Trivandrum. Though the temple is a vaishnava shrine, its ownership was with the royal family and the priests were all Namboodiris or Tulu brahmins; iyengars do not have any role. Next was government jobs and some of the iyengars had good government jobs, but a large number subsisted because of the free meals available from the temple throughout the day which was there till the early 1950's.

Vathimas, Chozhias and Mukkanias also used to reside along with iyers in the same streets. Mukkanias were banned from the fort area in the early 1800's by a royal edict on the grounds that they were becoming a 'social nuisance' but it looks as though the order was rescinded when a new person started ruling.

 

[prasad1]

JR,

Going by this definition then I wonder how many Vaishnavas are there?

When I was in India I remember reading a magazine where a Iyer woman married an Iyengar guy(love marriage) wrote about a funny incident.

She said her husband would never follow her to a Shiva temple and he told her he will never step into one at all.

So once he dropped her off outside a Shiva temple and he waited at the streets near by.

Then he heard many people shouting that a raging bull was running in the streets.

Then the bull came right towards him and he ran into the Shiva temple to save himself.

Then the wife told him looks as if Nandi brought you here and after that he started following his wife to the Shiva temple.

If an elephant chases a vaisnava, that person can take shelter in a shiva temple. (my mothers Tamil proverb). I do not know about bull. LOL

 

[prasad1]

Ramanuja was initially a proponent of the traditional bhakti philosophy that demanded adherents had a good command of Sanskrit texts and a ritualised approach to life and devotion. This outlook marginalised women and members of the shudra varna because they were disbarred from learning the Sanskrit Vedas, and Ramanuja later changed his position and became more receptive to an inclusionist theory.

The original Iyangar was an Iyyar, just as Jesus was jew. Just as Most of the sikh were Hindus.
When they could not find enough Brahmins to convert to Iyangar they converted NB to be Iyangars.
Iyengar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[renuka]

Sir, what is the meaning of Agrahaaram, more particularly the word 'HARAM'?.

Dear Chandru,

The word Agraharam is self explanatory.

Agra in Sanskrit means at the end/edge..just like you have a mantra that has a word karAgra..kara(hand) agra(end) which means the tips of the hand.

hAram means garland.

As a Shaivite you must be knowing that Lord Shiva is often praised as wearing a SarpahAram...that is One who wears a garland of snakes.

Now just imagine a garland and lay it on the floor..at the edge of the garland there is usually a heavier amount of flowers to make the garland fall well when placed on an idol or picture.

Now try to imagine the 2 rows of flowers that are on either side and they meet at the edge of the garland.

The 2 rows of the flowers are the houses and the edge of the garland is a temple.

So there you go..its a lay out housing plan...a fairly neutral plan that does not talk about the matam of the people staying there.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Dear Chandru,


The 2 rows of the flowers are the houses and the edge of the garland is a temple.

So there you go..its a lay out housing plan...a fairly neutral plan that does not talk about the matam of the people staying there.

Per your statement at the edge of the garland is a temple. As per information from Wikipedia which reproduced below, it has temples for Shiva and Vishnu and in Palakkad District there are only Iyers:

QUOTE
The name originates from the fact thatthe agraharams have lines of houses on either side of the road and the templeto the village god at the centre, thus resembling a garland around the temple.According to the traditional Hindu practice of architecture and town-planning, an agraharam isheld to be two rows of houses running north-south on either side of a road atone end of which would be a temple to Shiva and at the other end, a temple to Vishnu. An exampleis Vadiveeswaram in Tamil Nadu.

[h=2]Welcome to Kuzhalmannam Gramam ( Coyalmannam Agraharam )[/h]CoyalmannamAgraharam, a kerala iyer Tamil Brahmin gramam is one among agraharams (gramams)of Palakkad district. This site tells you more about this Agraharam, theresidents of this Agraharam, the gramam temples and associated festivals.Theresidents of this Agraharam are mainly Tamil Brahmins, commonly called askerala iyers who migrated from Tamilnadu more than 300 years ago. Read thearticle on Kerala IyerHistory to have a moreinformation on this.

UNQUOTE

When there were lot of differences within the sub sects of Iyer community, though the presiding Deity is same, and there were exclusive streets for various sub sects, (Valadi Agraharam for Brahacharanam, 18 Vathima villages in Tanjore Dist, Kumbakonam and Ganapathy Agrahaharam predominently by Ashtasahasram but no idea about Vadama villages), how come Iyer and Iyengar lived in a street which had Shiva temple also.

Possibly, Agrahaharams, exclusively for Brahmin living, might have been created either by Iyer, and subsequently Iyengar joined in, or vice versa, since the common tag is the word 'Brahmin'.

In one of my earlier blogs, I mentioned about the necessity of unholy alliance to avoid embarrassment. At the time of employment, my Iyengar colleagues in the office used to have lunch within their group. If any Iyengar was left alone, he used to join an Iyer colleague thereby avoiding to sit with an NB.

The history of Agrahaharam necessitates a close scrutiny to know the reason of formation and purpose.

 

[sangom]

Per your statement at the edge of the garland is a temple. As per information from Wikipedia which reproduced below, it has temples for Shiva and Vishnu and in Palakkad District there are only Iyers:

QUOTE
The name originates from the fact thatthe agraharams have lines of houses on either side of the road and the templeto the village god at the centre, thus resembling a garland around the temple.According to the traditional Hindu practice of architecture and town-planning, an agraharam isheld to be two rows of houses running north-south on either side of a road atone end of which would be a temple to Shiva and at the other end, a temple to Vishnu. An exampleis Vadiveeswaram in Tamil Nadu.
< Clipped >

The history of Agrahaharam necessitates a close scrutiny to know the reason of formation and purpose.

I have my doubts whether it (the agrahaaram or row-houses style of living) had anything to do with "hindu practice of architecture". We usually find such agrahaarams in places where the king or the local ruler, in the olden days, brought a group of brahmin families and settled them. Since the land would have been farmland or garden land before such a settlement decision was taken by the king, most probably the farming class would have been grieved if each such brahmin household were given a good plot of 10 cents or so; additionally, it was customary for the kings to exempt these agrahaaram lands and houses from all types of taxes and levies, in order to make it a complete "daanam" to brahmins. Hence, the efforts could have been to settle these brahmins in the bare minimum of land and since, the know-how for building multi-storied buildings was not known in those times, they arranged (packed) the houses tightly in the horizontal direction, instead of in the vertical direction as of today.

The temple at the eastern end, usually a Siva temple, possibly added to the auspiciousness and convenience of temple worship of the inmates and the word agra-haaram could also have meant the foremost garland, implying that the highest caste people only lived there. Even in my mother's youth, NBs could not enter into any agrahaaram; the NB vegetable vendors, reportedly, brought their vegetables and after placing them on the non-temple edge of the street, used to make a special sound and then the brahmin ladies used to go with a chombu of water, sprinkle on the vegetables, pick their needs and after the prices were bargained, keep the money (coins) on the ground and not give to the vendor. All this time the vendors had to stand a respectable distance away from their merchandise and only call out the prices, rates, etc. There was no weighing and prices were always on eye-estimate basis (கண் திட்டம்).

Similar street houses were there for weavers, potters, blacksmiths etc., but those were simply called streets (தெரு). Scholars in Tamil may debate whether this தெரு system is reflected in ancient Sanga literature. In any case, this தெரு, street or agrahaaram system is indigenous to the south only (no such thing in North India) and so, may be, we can call it a Dravidian architecture.

 

[Vaagmi]

Shri Chandru Sir,

1. I have been told by elders that the word agra+haaram means first & foremost, chief, and haaram=garland and that the brahmins' houses in two neat rows with the temple sort of connecting them at one end, looks very much like any flower garland with its pendent-like bunch spread on a surface.
2. As I said before, the more elderly people did not quite favour Iyers socializing with Iyengars, but I think by the 1950's with the advent of Independence, there was more of a freedom for everyone. There was no street exclusively for Iyengars in Trivandrum. Though the temple is a vaishnava shrine, its ownership was with the royal family and the priests were all Namboodiris or Tulu brahmins; iyengars do not have any role. Next was government jobs and some of the iyengars had good government jobs, but a large number subsisted because of the free meals available from the temple throughout the day which was there till the early 1950's.
3. Vathimas, Chozhias and Mukkanias also used to reside along with iyers in the same streets. Mukkanias were banned from the fort area in the early 1800's by a royal edict on the grounds that they were becoming a 'social nuisance' but it looks as though the order was rescinded when a new person started ruling.

The facts as against the fiction based on hearsay presented above:

1. The experience and knowledge of a Kerala based Iyer is woefully inadequate to explain an agraharam because agraharams are peculiar to Tamilnadu. An agraharam is the first garland in a village which is called a gramam (not the brahmin street like they call it in Kerala). In tamilnadu a gramam is an entire village including the streets of all other castes too. Go to any village in Tamilnadu. there will be a temple of Vishnu at the western end and atemple of shiva at the eastern end. If it is an agraharam built late it may not have any of these temples. This brahmin street would usually be situate on the banks of a river or a water canal sufficiently away from the waterbody. All other streets in which other communities lived will be situate around the agraharam in the shape of a garland again. Only the dalits were an exception. They were banished to a cheri a little away from the village. The remnants of the agraharams-at least 80 % of them have strictly followed this architecture in tamilnadu. In Kerala it is illam and the houses are usually independent surrounded by a large compound in districts like Allepey, Palghat etc., and cities like Trivandrum it is the Tamilnadu system of houses staked together in streets.

2. The distance kept between Iyers and Iyengars in old days was a mutual aversion tom each other. The temple in Trivandrum did not allow any TN based brahmins-Iyer or Iyengar- anywhere near the pooja performance , cooking prasadams or administration of the temple. It was the exclusive preserve of Nambudiris and Pottis. The Government employment was also not the fort of both these factions of brahmins. In Trivandrum the Iyengars were just 10% of the total TB population. It was mostly Iyers of various hues. There were very few vadamas, many chozhiyas, a few mukkaniyas and a few ashtasahasrams. While the Iyengars were comparatively well off with their land holdings back home in TN villages(every crop-at least twice in a year- they used to bring paddy from TN to kerala), the Iyers depended heavily on the midday meals provided in the temple. There was a graded division among iyers on the basis of the particular subsect they belonged to. Thus vadamas were usually sanskrit scholars who depended on the support of the palace, mukkaniyas were considered the lowest and were not migled with by others. Chozhiyas and ashtasahasrams were equal but one step below the vadamas.

3.Mukkanis were servants in palace and chozhiya iyers were purohits.

 

[Vaagmi]

[/FONT]I have my doubts whether it (the agrahaaram or row-houses style of living) had anything to do with "hindu practice of architecture". We usually find such agrahaarams in places where the king or the local ruler, in the olden days, brought a group of brahmin families and settled them. Since the land would have been farmland or garden land before such a settlement decision was taken by the king, most probably the farming class would have been grieved if each such brahmin household were given a good plot of 10 cents or so; additionally, it was customary for the kings to exempt these agrahaaram lands and houses from all types of taxes and levies, in order to make it a complete "daanam" to brahmins. Hence, the efforts could have been to settle these brahmins in the bare minimum of land and since, the know-how for building multi-storied buildings was not known in those times, they arranged (packed) the houses tightly in the horizontal direction, instead of in the vertical direction as of today.

The temple at the eastern end, usually a Siva temple, possibly added to the auspiciousness and convenience of temple worship of the inmates and the word agra-haaram could also have meant the foremost garland, implying that the highest caste people only lived there. Even in my mother's youth, NBs could not enter into any agrahaaram; the NB vegetable vendors, reportedly, brought their vegetables and after placing them on the non-temple edge of the street, used to make a special sound and then the brahmin ladies used to go with a chombu of water, sprinkle on the vegetables, pick their needs and after the prices were bargained, keep the money (coins) on the ground and not give to the vendor. All this time the vendors had to stand a respectable distance away from their merchandise and only call out the prices, rates, etc. There was no weighing and prices were always on eye-estimate basis (கண் திட்டம்).

Similar street houses were there for weavers, potters, blacksmiths etc., but those were simply called streets (தெரு). Scholars in Tamil may debate whether this தெரு system is reflected in ancient Sanga literature. In any case, this தெரு, street or agrahaaram system is indigenous to the south only (no such thing in North India) and so, may be, we can call it a Dravidian architecture.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

1. The agraharams had every thing to do with a unique archetecture peculiar to Tamilnadu. You do not find the agraharam type of archetecture anywhere outside TN not even in Kerala except in places where TBs went and settled.

2. the houses were built adjacent to each other in such a way each house had a common wall with the next house. The houses were starting from the street as the front portion extended upto backyard and had a number of rooms in a row. In any village the agraharam was the cleanest comparatively. While the houses in a agraharam was built with mudbricks, mortar, wood and tiles the houses of most of the other communities were built with just mudwalls and palm leafs for the ceiling. The agraharam houses were comparatively large with a cow shed and well at the backyard which was a luxury for other communities. Of course there were exceptions to the rule and there were rich landlords belonging to the other communities too who lived in large houses.

3. Only dalits were the outcastes and treated badly by the entire community of villagers. NB is a term which would include everyone other than a brahmin in its fold and hence is misleading. There never was any restriction about a Thevar, a konar, a pillai, a mudali or a ezhava entering the brahmin street or other streets in the village. It is these people who used to sell milk, curd, vegetables etc., and the story of brahmin ladies going with a chombu full of water is nothing but pure imagination. In old days the purchases were made not with money always. They were done in the barter method by offering paddy in place of money.