Swami Vivekananda (1863-1902)

[renuka]

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Almost allof us have 1 arm in west & 1 in India – so we can scoot as quickly aspossible if things deteriorate J

Cheers,

I am trying to picture..one arm in the west...one arm in India..trying to figure out which country some other body parts are situated especially the gravity challenged ones!LOL

 

[Jaykay767]

Iam trying to picture..one arm in the west...one arm in India..trying to figureout which country some other body parts are situated especially the gravitychallenged ones!LOL

LOL !!. Imagine only the hands stretched all the way to the west J

See, in summary, u can see that Brahmins as a race were very harmless compared to others who were warring & killing people by the millions.

Some of the so called anti-bramin activitists here should actually war against the Germans for the Nazi atrocities, white atrocities in USA against the red-indians, white atrocities in Australia against the aborginals etc.... These natives were shot point blank by the colonialists...

It is high time our arm chair activist leaves us brahmins in peace atleast in this forum to pursue our religion, scriptures, traditions, customs, etc.. J

 

[tks]

Originally Posted by tks
Dr Renu - I have numbered and provided short responses..

1. Certain topics are not for quick reading, hence a somewhat long post with the sincerity to answer the underlying assumption .. If someone wants to deliver babies but the person says they have no attention span to go to Medical School you will not accept that answer ..You may tell that person to not think about delivering babies but do something else. You have achieved a lot being a Medical Doctor and pursue what you think gives you answers if you have questions.

I will tell that person to start a hospital and hire someone who delivers babies..one does not need to be a doctor to start a hospital..so you see I gave the person an answer!

tks --- But the person is not delivering babies and hiring someone to do the work. In learning for personal growth there is no person to delegate to

2. That has not been my experience or understanding .. The only thing is finding truth is about doing a lot of unlearning which is hard to do.

Truth is the most misunderstood word..everyone claims to speak it but rarely we see anyone adhering to it.

tks --- I am not talking about day to day usage of the word Truth here though I am around people who both follow and those who twist. The truth of this Jagat is what I mentioned which requires unlearning which is not easy. It means examining the validity of assumptions

3. Not sure who are divine - not in my book - no one was divine .. Not sure what you expect them to do .. It is not about them, it is always about what you want to do

True..so the best is have nothing to do with religion.

tks--- not sure if that follows. To me religion is about a set of practices and rituals. If one was performing the act without understanding it is best to give that up rather than do nonsensical acts

4. Discrimination based on some characteristics will ALWAYS exist in this world - you cannot will that away .. That is how the Jagat is .. a system of opposites with Dharma and Adharma .. It is equivalent to not accepting why humans cannot fly like birds.

Agreed..but only Hindus make discrimination a religion.

tks -- Discrimination is a social practice. I know many Americans and Westerners observe many religious acts. The circle of people I have come across and those calling themselves Hindus treat them no different. Hinduism is an umbrella name ...

5. Not in my experience. I have no respect for just a robe but the content of what someone teaches.

I have lots of respect for what lies beneath the robe..pull it off and all men/women are nude!


6. I dont know any Brahmanas or Kshatriyas other than claims as identity by some people. There are forum members here that will echo well with your views and can add to this line of thought. I have no response.

Its a TB forum not a Kshatriya Forum!LOL


7. Religion known as Hinduism does not preach 'Aham Brahmasmi' . Only when one is able to go 'past religion' that one is even prepared to have a conversation about what this statement may mean. So it is a meaningless statement at this point.

Yes you are right..nothing actually has a meaning cos its never actually practiced!

tks --- Religion practiced or not practiced by others is actually irrelevant. The real religion is what you practice and that can be the only focus that makes sense. Doing some public puja may be religion for some, it is not for me but I am not against or for what they do.

8. Again creation has serial killers and philanthropists. Humans can help others and will also discriminate. This is nature. Karma theory is only an acknowledgement of this reality. Today the best way to remove the problems of caste issues is to find ways to life up the mass of people to be better off financially. There are few people I know who are trying to find solutions and putting personal time and wealth to make this happen.

Best way to remove caste system is for each caste to send members 2 by 2 like in Noah's Ark and head to Colorado where Marijuana is legal..get high and have a spiritual orgy..9 months later Lo Behold! Varnasankar!

9. I do not like the word spiritual - it is kind of meaningless without context. Spiritual growth is therefore meaningless also for most part in usage. No religion can help create growth. One becomes mature with right knowledge and practices. In the area of practices certain religious traditions can help.

I like the word spiritual..it makes you high like alcohol!

10. All these words like Self Realization are meaningless without context. Why chase after something that is not even defined well?

Exactly..it's a wild goose chase..I am better off chasing some guy!LOL



tks --- ... Make sure you get your hubby's permission unless he is the guy you are chasing .. If you do chase someone else here is a escape latch if he catches you .. just say "honey I am going through a mid life crisis .. chasing this guy helped me find an answer to find myself" .. Just teasing of course

 

[renuka]

LOL !!. Imagine only the hands stretched all the wayto the west J

See, insummary, u can see that Brahmins as a race were very harmless compared toothers who were warring & killing people by the millions.

Some of the socalled anti-bramin activitists here should actually war against the Germans forthe Nazi atrocities, white atrocities in USA against the red-indians, whiteatrocities in Australia against the aborginals etc.... These natives were shotpoint blank by the colonialists...

It is high timeour arm chair activist leaves us brahmins in peace atleast in this forum topursue our religion, scriptures, traditions, customs, etc.. J

Dear JK,

I am not here to praise anyone or even think highly of anyone.

Humans are capable of anything...so we can never generalize.

Sattva and Tamas sometimes can mimic each other..sometimes fear is often mistaken as Sattva guna.

So even if you tell me that

Brahmins as a race were very harmless compared toothers who were warring & killing people by the millions.

my answer is how would I know what goes on in anyone's mind? well we had Parashurama..Ok he is half breed..he had Kshatriya blood so may be thats why he had a violent streak..Ok lets take Vamana avatar..the True Brahmana who crushed someone head right into Patala Loka..so how yaar???

 

[renuka]

Originally Posted by tks

tks --- ... Make sure you get your hubby's permission unless he is the guy you are chasing .. If you do chase someone else here is a escape latch if he catches you .. just say "honey I am going through a mid life crisis .. chasing this guy helped me find an answer to find myself" .. Just teasing of course

LOL!


No problems I will sedate him and then chase another..so when he wakes up he wont know who chased whom!LOL (just kidding)

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear JK,

I am not here to praise anyone or even think highly of anyone.

Humans are capable of anything...so we can never generalize.

Sattva and Tamas sometimes can mimic each other..sometimes fear is oftenmistaken as Sattva guna.

So even if you tell me that my answer is how would I know what goes on inanyone's mind? well we had Parashurama..Ok he is half breed..he had Kshatriyablood so may be thats why he had a violent streak..Ok lets take Vamanaavatar..the True Brahmana who crushed someone head right into Patala Loka..sohow yaar???

Hi Renuka,

I am keen to clarify this since we are NOT looking atthis from a holistic perspective. Even in the worst case scenario, all theBrahmins did was discriminate & put fear of God into others to ensure theirsurvival. None of the Brahmins ever enslaved others, tortured or killed themever in history. Even the most anti-brahmin activist has NOT levied thischarge.

Having said that, lets look at the Vamana Avatar. AfterMaha Bali is banished to Patala Loka, he lives as a great king & runs a flourishingkingdom. On the point of crushed someone’s head, it is a metaphor not to be takenliterally.

In our scriptures, a lot of things are dramatized to havea positive impact on people. For eg, if a King gallops /goes very fast on ahorse, our ancients will describe saying he flew in the air. You have to usethe Tamil language here to understand the dramatization – “Avan parandu poyittan”.

Cheers,

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

First of all let me say that it is good that he you feel the need to break free of the shackles that tries to curb your independent thinking. As I said in my earlier post the need for independence does indicate, given the benefit of wisdom that you have derived from the scriptures, that what you would be getting is real freedom.I am saying real freedom because I want to contrast it with the general prevailing idea of freedom. Freedom is normally taken to mean acting on one's own thoughts. But the problem here is one's own mind itself may be conditioned and may only be producing conditioned responses.

I am sure that is not the case with you as I said you mind already has the benefit of the knowledge that has most surely tempered it so now you are in a position to really discriminate. Renuka, I think such a wisdom is required and it is hard to imagine that a person in his full life time would be able to reach such wisdom on his own. Just as all the previous scientific knowledge is required to make further progress in science you need the spiritual knowledge too.

The discrimination you see in Hinduism is not really discrimination. For example would you say that the IQ testing is discriminatory? You need some way to specify the the extent of spiritual knowledge one has and that every one need to know for self improvement. A hindu I am sure is not taught to discriminate and I think there has been so much bad propaganda that is based on improper understanding of texts or done with malicious intent.

In conclusion I am saying that religion is not inherently bad and to many people it is a source of very useful knowledge which otherwise would not be available. Just as science can be used for good and bad so can religion be used for both purposes.

 

[renuka]

In our scriptures, a lot of things are dramatized to havea positive impact on people. For eg, if a King gallops /goes very fast on ahorse, our ancients will describe saying he flew in the air. You have to usethe Tamil language here to understand the dramatization – “Avan parandu poyittan”.

Cheers,

Yup I understand..just like when a guy cant get a girl and she is beyond his reach he cries "Aval Paranthu Ponale" even though the girl has no wings!LOL


So that way even Religion is an exaggeration!

 

[renuka]

The discrimination you see in Hinduism is not really discrimination. For example would you say that the IQ testing is discriminatory? You need some way to specify the the extent of spiritual knowledge one has and that every one need to know for self improvement. A hindu I am sure is not taught to discriminate and I think there has been so much bad propaganda that is based on improper understanding of texts or done with malicious intent.

Dear Sravna,

Ok Sravna let me put a question to you..just say I am a down trodden community and I come to you and ask you.

'Samiyo! I have just started following Sanatha Dharma..why is it I am considered to have sinned to be born in this body..I see that you also have eyes like me..you also have nose like me..you also have a mouth like me..why Samiyo..I am considered not good enough..some Christian missionaries are telling me to join their religion..but I do not want too..I am Indian..its my birth right to be Hindu..so why Samiyo?? Why why??"


Ok Sravna what will be your answer?

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Ok Sravna let me put a question to you..just say I am a down trodden community and I come to you and ask you.

'Samiyo! I have just started following Sanatha Dharma..why is it I am considered to have sinned to be born in this body..I see that you also have eyes like me..you also have nose like me..you also have a mouth like me..why Samiyo..I am considered not good enough..some Christian missionaries are telling me to join their religion..but I do not want too..I am Indian..its my birth right to be Hindu..so why Samiyo?? Why why??"


Ok Sravna what will be your answer?

Dear Renuka,

I will ask you another question. I am seeking admissions to a medical college. But my knowledge is limited. I want a medical seat. You tell me now, without any consideration other than my desire, would you grant me the seat? If you are practical you would say no.

Similarly spiritual knowledge is not comprehensible to every one. Those who have it can practice it just as a doctor who has licence can only practice. Otherwise the doctor would be dangerous. The only problem was that some discriminatory practices crept in because of the feeling the brahmins felt they possessed superior knowledge. I am sure hinduism does not say that a brahmin should look down upon the other people. Just that he is fit for certain tasks because of his qualifications for them. btw brahmins true to what they professed, did not seek and roll in wealth in the past.

So I would say it is only misinterpretations and misrepresentations of what hinduism says that has created the wrong impression.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

I will ask you another question. I am seeking admissions to a medical college. But my knowledge is limited. I want a medical seat. You tell me now, without any consideration other than my desire, would you grant me the seat? If you are practical you would say no.

Similarly spiritual knowledge is not comprehensible to every one. Those who have it can practice it just as a doctor who has licence can only practice. Otherwise the doctor would be dangerous. The only problem was that some discriminatory practices crept in because of the feeling the brahmins felt they possessed superior knowledge. I am sure hinduism does not say that a brahmin should look down upon the other people. Just that he is fit for certain tasks because of his qualifications for them. btw brahmins true to what they professed, did not seek and roll in wealth in the past.

So I would say it is only misinterpretations and misrepresentations of what hinduism says that has created the wrong impression.

Samiyo..you see I asked you one question and you dont want to answer?? So that means there is no proper answer or you dont know how to answer?/

Samiyo..I have come to you for help..otherwise the missionary will screw me in missionary position!LOL

Sami..you are saying spiritual knowledge is not for everyone?? you see Sami..in the past women also were thought to be dumb and not fit for any knowledge..but you know my Pondatti?..she is a very smart woman..I am not as smart as her..these days all girls are also smarter than boys..so you see Sami..if a person is not given a chance..how will we know who is smart and not smart?

BTW Samiyo! Spiritual entrance exam?? Where do you sit for this??Have you sat for it? What was your results??
Who marked the paper?? Another Sami??

So tell Sami all about spiritual entrance test..tells fast na Sami...dont beat about the bush Samiyo!

 

[sravna]

Samiyo..you see I asked you one question and you dont want to answer?? So that means there is no proper answer or you dont know how to answer?/

Samiyo..I have come to you for help..otherwise the missionary will screw me in missionary position!LOL

Sami..you are saying spiritual knowledge is not for everyone?? you see Sami..in the past women also were thought to be dumb and not fit for any knowledge..but you know my Pondatti?..she is a very smart woman..I am not as smart as her..these days all girls are also smarter than boys..so you see Sami..if a person is not given a chance..how will we know who is smart and not smart?

BTW Samiyo! Spiritual entrance exam?? Where do you sit for this??Have you sat for it? What was your results??
Who marked the paper?? Another Sami??

So tell Sami all about spiritual entrance test..tells fast na Sami...dont beat about the bush Samiyo!

Dear Renuka,

I answered your question through an analogy. Let me answer it directly. Can a person who let us say is by nature violent understand the real intent of spiritual knowledge and practice it in the right way? Such knowledge is supposed to be used for the long term peace of the society.One needs to understand the wisdom in that knowledge to use it correctly. That is the reason for aligning the occupations with one's gunas.

I agree that no spiritual entrance exam has been designed but birth is used as a rough criterion. I am sure an ingenious person can come up with an entrance test as a better criterion.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

I answered your question through an analogy. Let me answer it directly. Can a person who let us say is by nature violent understand the real intent of spiritual knowledge and practice it in the right way? Such knowledge is supposed to be used for the long term peace of the society.One needs to understand the wisdom in that knowledge to use it correctly. That is the reason for aligning the occupations with one's gunas.

I agree that no spiritual entrance exam has been designed but birth is used as a rough criterion. I am sure an ingenious person can come up with an entrance test as a better criterion.

Aiyoo Samiyo! You know my ancestor?? The famous Ratnakara was from jungle only Sami..sama violent! Then he met Narada and all violence went away..and he became Valmiki.

You know another guy Angulimala..aiyoo full time autopsy he was doing..then see Lord Buddha came and he become a monk.

So Samiyo why you are saying violent person cant understand spiritual knowledge?

Tell Sami..

 

[sarang]

Birth was a criterion only as far as learning and teaching vedas are concerned. There was no restrictions on any other type of religious, spiritual and self improvement literature - itihasas, puranas, stotras, bhakti literature in all languages, tamil included. How did a vast section of spiritual leaders, saints and ordinary people were well versed in vedantic and religious literature. Azhwars, nayanmars and rural public, and many more not specifically patronised by the kings or local rulers, were ardent devotees and produced yoga, agama and bhakti literature?

Brahmins were custodians of vedas and diverse brahminical traditions only. Vast religious literature and practices and traditions are the cumulative effort of all varnas and avarnas. This secret is known to brahmins and others as well. Such a diffusion of sanatana dharmic values is not possible unless all sections of the hindu population were active participants.

I agree that no spiritual entrance exam has been designed but birth is used as a rough criterion. I am sure an ingenious person can come up with an entrance test as a better criterion.

 

[sravna]

Aiyoo Samiyo! You know my ancestor?? The famous Ratnakara was from jungle only Sami..sama violent! Then he met Narada and all violence went away..and he became Valmiki.

You know another guy Angulimala..aiyoo full time autopsy he was doing..then see Lord Buddha came and he become a monk.

So Samiyo why you are saying violent person cant understand spiritual knowledge?

Tell Sami..

Dear Renuka,

If a violent person did indeed become spiritual, then it is most likely he was incorrectly classified by birth. In my view there is some threshold spiritual development for someone to understand and practice spirituality just like you need to meet the cut off marks in an entrance exam. That should be the rationale for allowing only certain people to acquire spiritual knowledge.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

If a violent person did indeed become spiritual, then it is most likely he was incorrectly classified by birth. In my view there is some threshold spiritual development for someone to understand and practice spirituality just like you need to meet the cut off marks in an entrance exam. That should be the rationale for allowing only certain people to acquire spiritual knowledge.

Dear Sravna,

So are you trying to deny that Valmiki and Angulimala were violent before they were transformed?
Frankly speaking Sravna..this whole spiritual threshold is just cock and bull.

Practice of anything makes perfect.

Last week I was apprehensive of starting to roller skate/roller blade again cos the last time I did skate was some good 15 years ago.

But even then there is still a memory in our brain..so got rid of my fear and skated..initially shaky but within 15 minutes my past memory of skating came back and I was enjoying the full speed skating once again.


Ok back to story..you see the true human nature is not much different..even the worst person on earth will get angry if you call him a bad man..he will hit you but if you call him a good man..he will smile...the reason?? Cos goodness is the true nature of anyone of us.The memory of goodness is in us..just like how I remembered to skate..all of us will remember goodness when we are alone.

I have a feeling you must be holding on to some theory that some people have come with a higher spiritual evolution than others. This is just holding on to some false theory.

Everyone is essentially the same..it is just that who gets exposed to what makes all the difference.

 

[sravna]

OK Renuka, if you are not comfortable with terms such as spiritual , let me say that some people are more inclined to be soft, to see long term benefits and peace loving while some others are inclined to seek immediate gratification, be more prone to violence etc. if that makes better sense

 

[renuka]

OK Renuka, if you are not comfortable with terms such as spiritual , let me say that some people are more inclined to be soft, to see long term benefits and peace loving while some others are inclined to seek immediate gratification, be more prone to violence etc. if that makes better sense

LOL!

I think spiritual is a better word!

Cos here you are saying some are inclined to be soft..long term benefit..others are inclined to seek immediate gratification..sounds like patients who see treatment for Erectile Dysfunction!

So we will stick to the usage of the word Spiritual..its less confusing!LOL