Swami Vivekananda

[SwamiTaBra]

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His intellect was sharp and in his catholicity grand. His outbursts has to be looked in the total context.

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Vivekananda was a man of conscience and courage. He was truthful and never hesitated to admit his weaknesses or his country's failures. At the same time, he surely highlighted the "overall strength" of India in more than one way. I am afraid his words are quoted without the understanding of the context. If there is any one who made the world salute India, it is Viveka, Viveka and Viveka. It is unfortunate that the world has developed the habit of shaming noble souls. We all know what the world did to Jesus Christ. It is heart-breaking that even members of this forum have the habit of scoffing at someone for nothing.

 

[sarma-61]

Are these really from the the lord of wisdom? Intriguing indeed, making me crave for more -- hope there is more ......

Shri Nara Sir,

There are lots more. You may be able to get the book :Vivekananda- a reassessment by Narasingha Prosad Sil, published by susquehanna university. It brings out the real SV, i think since i am only able to read the few pages from google books and stocks are not available in India. (western suppliers are very costly, 50 or 60 $!!).

But the fact is SV and his family (males) were tobacco addicts. SV's given name was Vireshwar and was fondly called Biley (short for Vireshwar). His father was a lawyer and also a spendthrift. When actually Biley became Narendranath Dutta is not seen anywhere. But his childhood was spent in affluent bengali 'bhadralok' way. even as infant, Sil writes, SV used to suck the hookah kept by his lawyer father for his Muslim clients. Later he started smoking from his father's hookah. As SV grew in stature he took to cigars and was a smoker to the last.

SV ate non-veg, including beef, used to drink. From childhood he was reportedly a glutton. "He once proudly recalled the ancient Hindu society of beef-eating Brahmins and advised the youths of India to "be strong" so that they could "understand the Gita better with...biceps.
... In fact John Barrows reportedly observed that in the United States, Vivekananda used to devour beef somewhat ostensibly"

(Vivekananda- A reassessment, Narasingha Prosad Sil, p.53)

In that book you will also find-

1. SV, in his younger days started a gluttons' club called Greedy Club.

2. RK used to eat fish and meat except on Sundays, but SV did not mind flouting this rule even when he was only a disciple.

3. Paul Deussen, the famous German Sanskrit Scholar told SV frankly in Amsterdam in 1896 "You eat well, you drink well, you smoke all day, and you deprive yourself of nothing." (The same book p.54)

4.Young Naren was rude in behaviour and haughty. He used to walk in the street smoking a cheroot even in the presence of elders of the neighbourhood.

5. Naren was an active member of brahmo samaj. As such the popular story that he did not believe in god and RK touched him and he saw god, etc., is for the consumption of the gullible only. But his gurubhais say SV (naren) used to often say there is no god whenever his prayers were not answered and his prayers were many because on his father's death in 1883 (?) the family underwent severe financial difficulties, Naren took up a job as a school teacher but lost the job because the students reportedly complained that he was not a good teacher.

That is when he came more and more under RK's influence. Many writers on RK/SV now say RK was homo-erotic and that is how the strong bondage between the two came about.

6. Naren's father had purchased huge landed property in his (Naren's) name called (Viresvarer Abad) which he could not inherit due to family litigations. But SV was desirous of enjoying it and told Brahmananda to recover it since Brahmananda, as the son of a landlord, will have inherited a property holder's cunning. (P.57)

Despite these and ever so many truths which have come out, we indians are so given to hero worship that we will swear by the much edited "Complete Works" and other hagigraphical biographies and hold SV and other swamis as even higher to God.

My only surprise is that the same people sneer at the common folk in TN making milk abhishekam to cut-outs of film heros and heroines!!

You may also kindly go through the blog i gave earlier. SV calls,in one letter, Sankara and Ramanuja as mere pundits in a hurry for their liberation or something equal to that!! Still our staunch kanchi acharya devotees worship SV!!

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

We DON"T become great by flinging mud on another great man.

Even today calenders bear Swami Vivekananda's picture and

I know the existing demand for them!!

Lord Krishna broke so many rules and played unfair only to protect Dharma.

We never find fault with Him for that!

There are no unmixed blessings.

If his goodness outweighs the wickedness,

then the person is undoubtedly good.:deadhorse:

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

A to Z of Swami Vivekananda's words of wisdom.

[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]Incarnations like Jesus, Buddha and Ramakrishna can give

religion.

Jana-Yoga tells man that he is essentially divine.

Knowledge exists, man only discovers it.

Look at the ocean and not at the waves.
[/FONT]

 

[Nara]

As SV grew in stature he took to cigars and was a smoker to the last.

[..]

SV ate non-veg, including beef, used to drink.

..... we indians are so given to hero worship that we will swear by the much edited "Complete Works" and other hagigraphical biographies and hold SV and other swamis as even higher to God.

Thanks Sarma-61, I appreciate it.

Eating beef and smoking cigars do not automatically disqualify SV from being a thinker. But, as you rightly point out, there is no need to deify anyone, even great thinkers.

The problem with philosophical discourse in India is, it is too closely interwoven with religious dogma. Another problem is this hero worship you have mentioned. If it is said by so and so, then questioning it is nothing short of blasphemy.

As long as the western world was also under the supremacy of religious authority, it was under what we now call as the Dark Ages. The critical thinkers to emerge during what we now call the Age of Enlightenment saw religion as antithetical to reason. During this time, Europe produced an array of philosophers from Descartes to Spinoza to Kant, Hegel and Nietzsche. The supposedly spiritual India is stuck with Brhmma Sutra and its commentaries, nothing new. IMO, Brahminism is the most important culprit for this stagnation.

Cheers!

 

[SwamiTaBra]

"... On the whole, the Americans are a million times nobler than the Hindus, and I can work more good here than in the country of the ingrate and the heartless. ...". "... I have written to you about the phonograph. Now there is here an electric fan costing $20 and working beautifully. The battery works 100 hours and then can be replenished at any electric plant. Good-bye, I have had enough of the Hindus. ..."

Dear Sarma,
The greatness of Vivekananda and Aurobindo lie in their capacity to take a panoramic view of the whole world and yet be rooted to the spiritual traditions of their country of birth.

Sri. Sarma as I said earlier you pick some of the outbursts of Vivekananda and then make your hasty conclusions.
He admired the vigour of the west, but that does not mean he has condemned everything here. He said they (West) are children of virochana, and five elements play in their hands.

To the extent I read both of them, interestingly I did not find a single word condemning Manu. In fact Aurobindo calls Manu "a divine law giver" for his smriti --which of course is profounder-- than sharia given by Prophet Mohammed to his followers.

Both believed that renaissance in India could happen if only she starts rediscovering the "kshatra-virya", the spirit of kshatriyahood. Also they believed, that if India has has to recover the intellectual lead it should work by her temperament, that had gone dormant.

It must be borne in mind that both Vivekananda and Aurobindo were Kayasthas, not brahmins by birth.

Regards,
Swami

P.S.: I don't know whether it is true that he gorged beef. It is well-known that he smoked. Once someone offered him a pack of cigars and he picked just one cigar and said that a sanyassi should not take more that his immediate needs.

 

[pannvalan]

I wish to know whether the book under reference from which several quotations have been reproduced here was published after the death of Swami Vivekananda.

It is human tendency that we eulogize some one whom we like to very great heights or despise him harshly, if we don't like him.

There is one beautiful poem in social psychology to illustrate how bias operates in every one.

I don't like Dr Fell;
And the reasons I cannot tell.
The only thing I can tell
Is I don't like Dr Fell.


This is one of my poems.

அது தான் நியாயம்

மகாத்மா காந்தியை
விமசிப்பதற்கு முன்னால்,
நான் அவரளவில்
பாதியாவது ஆக முயற்சிப்பேன்.

 

[sarma-61]

Dear Sarma,
The greatness of Vivekananda and Aurobindo lie in their capacity to take a panoramic view of the whole world and yet be rooted to the spiritual traditions of their country of birth.

Sri. Sarma as I said earlier you pick some of the outbursts of Vivekananda and then make your hasty conclusions.
He admired the vigour of the west, but that does not mean he has condemned everything here. He said they (West) are children of virochana, and five elements play in their hands.

To the extent I read both of them, interestingly I did not find a single word condemning Manu. In fact Aurobindo calls Manu "a divine law giver" for his smriti --which of course is profounder-- than sharia given by Prophet Mohammed to his followers.

Both believed that renaissance in India could happen if only she starts rediscovering the "kshatra-virya", the spirit of kshatriyahood. Also they believed, that if India has has to recover the intellectual lead it should work by her temperament, that had gone dormant.

It must be borne in mind that both Vivekananda and Aurobindo were Kayasthas, not brahmins by birth.

Regards,
Swami

P.S.: I don't know whether it is true that he gorged beef. It is well-known that he smoked. Once someone offered him a pack of cigars and he picked just one cigar and said that a sanyassi should not take more that his immediate needs.

Shri Swami Sir,

"outbursts" and "sanyasi" itself does not sound quite right. The one-cigar story might or might not be true but i feel there is a darker, less honourable side to both RK and SV. what i find is you are not willing to read the other side without any bias and then come to a balanced judgement.

Now let me come to your statement of panaromic view. the whole letter is to be traced and i can give subsequently, but have you read the last sentence "Good-bye, I have had enough of the Hindus..."? what does that mean in the context of "panaromic view"?

And finally, what great benefit hindus/hinduism derived from SV's life? Pl. do not mix up the benefits derived by RK Mission with benefits derived by hindus at large in india, religion-wise or other-wise?

That is why i hold that our present day "paamara makkal" doing milk abhishekam are as intelligent and discriminatins as the TBs hailing SV, RK, AG etc as saviours!! we must remember the adage in malayalam "pothu janam kazhuthayaanu" meaning "the public is an ass". we, the so-called brainy, superior TBs are no better, I feel. or is it that those who sing paeans of these "gurus/yogis" have some vested interests, unknown to me? or, is it the relics of some teen age hero worship recommended by parents for hero worship?

 

[sarma-61]

I wish to know whether the book under reference from which several quotations have been reproduced here was published after the death of Swami Vivekananda.

It is human tendency that we eulogize some one whom we like to very great heights or despise him harshly, if we don't like him.

There is one beautiful poem in social psychology to illustrate how bias operates in every one.

I don't like Dr Fell;
And the reasons I cannot tell.
The only thing I can tell
Is I don't like Dr Fell.


This is one of my poems.

அது தான் நியாயம்

மகாத்மா காந்தியை
விமசிப்பதற்கு முன்னால்,
நான் அவரளவில்
பாதியாவது ஆக முயற்சிப்பேன்.

Shri Pannvalan Sir,

All these letters are in the "Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda" in the url Sri Ramakrishna and Swami Vivekananda

I think it is RKM website only and all the letters have been "sanitized" by editing. these are from the edited letters. but i am taking help of this blog also, verifying what he cites is true and giving:

Vivekananda YB

I had given this url earlier also but people in blind belief did not appear to read any of that.

now, to your drop of wisdom-

your rule will wipe out criticism from the face of the earth. i have seen many criticise DMK but have they tried to become at least half as much as MK?

i have seen many criticising Shri Nara, in this forum, but has any one of them become half atheist as him?

there are many music critics who if they sing, everyone will run away, but they are held as good music critics.

so, criticism is not and cannot be linked to the critic's ability to imitate the person criticised. it is based on the critic's capacity to understand and evaluate- without fear or favour - the work, actions of the one being criticised. yours is only a hoodwink to suppress anyone who is hero to you from being criticised. blind belief that nothing can be wrong with your hero/s and nothing must be said wrong about them by any one. when DMK followers do this for their leader this rule is not applied, strangley!!

i find this - blind belief - working at home level also. when some unmarried girls are seen in suspicious company and places and well wishers bring it to the notice of parents it is such well wishers who get fired, till at last, the girl elopes or goes and marries a boy not at all to the liking of the parents; then they wail, saying "teriyaamal poyuduthu, aarum chollave illai, etc." and others, out of compassion do not go and argue that they drove out well-wishers.

your verse should be like this:

I don't think Dr Fell is genuine doctor;
And the reasons I tell.
The only thing I encounter
Is you don't like my telling the reasons so well.

 

[happyhindu]

yours is only a hoodwink to suppress anyone who is hero to you from being criticised. blind belief that nothing can be wrong with your hero/s and nothing must be said wrong about them by any one.

Sarma Sir,

Am not sure why but i feel this is a "generation-gap". So far as i have seen all younger ones are the open minded sort while all elderly people try to supress everything reg their "subject of veneration". Far from criticism, some elderly people simply cannot even stand questions. To such people, some questions must never be asked, never be spoken of and never be thot of. Irrespective of whether it is Vivekanada or any other personality, they expect blind-belief. As long as a person has 'blind-beleif' then they will like the person. If the blind-belief goes off, then they will avoid / dislike the person. Unfortunate indeed.

Regards.

 

[sarma-61]

Sarma Sir,

Am not sure why but i feel this is a "generation-gap". So far as i have seen all younger ones are the open minded sort while all elderly people try to supress everything reg their "subject of veneration". Far from criticism, some elderly people simply cannot even stand questions. To such people, some questions must never be asked, never be spoken of and never be thot of. Irrespective of whether it is Vivekanada or any other personality, they expect blind-belief. As long as a person has 'blind-beleif' then they will like the person. If the blind-belief goes off, then they will avoid / dislike the person. Unfortunate indeed.

Regards.

Smt. Happyhindu,

True words. But i am not from the younger generation but the intermediate one, if i may say so. but i have always this habit of seeing if a person gets name really for some deserving thing or not. for example, if one jawan gets param vir chakra, i will not look into whether he ate beef, smoked cigar/cheroot, had "outbursts" - very difficult in afield of war to control oneself, i feel, or had a weakness for women and was going to call girls. But when i am talking about a man who wears saffron, says he is a sanyasi, takes a new name with "ananda" at the end, after doing the homam prescribed for sanyasam, etc., I feel such people should always behave in private and public according to what the hindus expect of a true ascetic. Otherwise he should have gone to the remote himalayas and lived in seclusion like the aghoris who have very peculiar, secret and objectionable practices.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

A to Z of Swami Vivekananda's words of wisdom.

[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]Man as Atman is really free-as Man he is bound.

Never turn back to see the result of what you have done.

Out of purity and silence comes the word of power.

Perception is our only real knowledge or religion.

[A silent prayer to Poojya swami Vivekananda!]

Please pardon me for posting your words of wisdom in this

thread -being torn by controversies. May be I should have

started a new thread for this purpose. [/FONT]:hail:

 

[biswa]

No (wo)man is perfect

It is meaningless to expect perfection in a human, if they were perfect they would become God, or even greater than God.

The point is not what mistakes Vivekananda, Gandhi, Winston Churchill or Gautam Buddha did. They are not clamoring for attention or recognition. After all, they are dead.

It is more about what we can learn from these great lives, to make ourselves better. We have our own brain to be able to separate the great from the undesirable.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

There is a very beautiful word in Sanskrit 'Chitra dharshin' which means a

'chronic- fault- finder'

Some people spend their entire lives in digging up the lives of people dead and

gone long ago, looking for faults-as if they were burried treasures!

Let us let them :rip:

 

[Raghy]

Respectable members,

Greetings. Is the discussion in this thread about Vivekananda as a person? I always thought, the motivating philosophies were the hall mark from Vivekananda. I don't see the point in discussing the person....

Cheers!

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

You too have put it in a nutshell Mr. Raghy!


But we can't blame them either.

They CAN discuss only what they KNOW! :hungry:

with warm regards,
V.R.

 

[sarma-61]

Respectable members,

Greetings. Is the discussion in this thread about Vivekananda as a person? I always thought, the motivating philosophies were the hall mark from Vivekananda. I don't see the point in discussing the person....

Cheers!

Shri Raghy Sir,

I do not know what you refer to as the "motivating philosophies" of SV. All i can say is that he did not give any "original" contribution to indian philosophy, nor was he well-trained in it except his brief association with the brahmo leaders of the time and subsequently the mystic-tantric "influence" of RK on him, if any. ("If any" because the association between SV & RK was not more than three or four years, at the end of which RK selected SV as his chosen disciple.)

Now, coming to SV's brand of philosophy it was a jumble of many things dished out to his American audience - mainly women, in the beginning, because they were driven by the curiosity of an eastern monk talking in English, on whatever it might be. Once he got fame abroad, our fellows started regarding him as something of an avataar and then more and more greatnesses got thrust upon him continuously.

My only purpose is to show how poor in judgement we people are and are given to blind following - as one upanishad says "blind leading the blind, and posing as though they are very great"! My purpose is if even one person will take a fresh look and understand that we are almost always following wrong persons, on the strength of much touted greatnesses served by disciples, it will do.

I think you have seen the post in which SV says to one of his co-disciples that he grants RK might be a sham but they (his disciples) cannot waste their life and have to project as if everything is great. Is it not clear that the whole thing was a great drama?

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sarma Sir,

Greetings. I don't know those 'motivating philosophies' either. I am not a learned person. But, once I saw 17 volumes of thick bound books in my friend's place, all were the work of SV. I was allowed to borrow one book (at a time); I tried reading it (leave alone understanding it), but did not get very far. There ended reading Swamy Vivekananda's work. But I was told that they were 'motivating philosophies'; it must be so, for some persons. I only refered that. I was not going to discuss such philosophies anyway, since I did not know them. But, I have seen the work of Swamy Vivekananda though. I think it would be much scholarly to discuss the work of Swamy Vivekananada - it's merits and demerits, instead of discussing about the person.

எப்பொருள் யார்யார் வாய் கேட்பினும் அப்பொருள்
மெய்ப்பொருள் காண்ப தறிவு.

So, personally I would be least interested in his personal life. In India, everybody gets 'divinity'! This is the country where you can find a temple for 'Kushboo'......

Cheers!

 

[Haridasa Siva]

I would expect anyone to refrain from showing his contempt or dislike to a popular figure time and again. After all, what would one achieve by doing it? It is decency not to go on mud slinging. We should not go the extent of hurting someone's belief in the name of "giving the truth".

 

[sarma-61]

Those who oppose my comments have not so far given any convincing evidence to prove that what i write is untruth; they seem motivated by a mental weakness to accept the fact that their super-hero was, after all, a man with clay feet - unworthy of so much adulation and veneration, and that they were, so to say, befooled into thinking very great about him.

Shri Praveen, the owner of this forum has recently said "Restricting ourselves to only a certain group does not help us in any way. Same ideas, same thoughts and same action. Nothing new is going to come about."http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/5670-there-something-wrong-scientific-method-3.html#post67333

I hope he finds my posts acceptable and giving only a different pov. In case he feels differently, i will stop my comments on the actual personality of SV.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sarma said -

Those who oppose my comments have not so far given any convincing evidence to prove that what i write is untruth; they seem motivated by a mental weakness to accept the fact that their super-hero was, after all, a man with clay feet - unworthy of so much adulation and veneration, and that they were, so to say, befooled into thinking very great about him.

Sri.Sarma Sir, Greetings. Personally I am neither opposing nor supporting your comments. I am the least interested in analying Swamy Vivekananda, the person. His smoking habits, eating habits etc are of no concern. Just because a person drinks, smokes or eat NV foods, that person does not become unworthy of adulation or veneration. Personaly I never thought SV is respected for his eating and other habits. Such informations are not of any importance.

All I am saying is, let us analyse the messages; let us not worry about analysing the messaenger.

Cheers!

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Shri Swami Sir,

"outbursts" and "sanyasi" itself does not sound quite right. The one-cigar story might or might not be true but i feel there is a darker, less honourable side to both RK and SV. what i find is you are not willing to read the other side without any bias and then come to a balanced judgement.

Now let me come to your statement of panaromic view. the whole letter is to be traced and i can give subsequently, but have you read the last sentence "Good-bye, I have had enough of the Hindus..."? what does that mean in the context of "panaromic view"?

And finally, what great benefit hindus/hinduism derived from SV's life? Pl. do not mix up the benefits derived by RK Mission with benefits derived by hindus at large in india, religion-wise or other-wise?

That is why i hold that our present day "paamara makkal" doing milk abhishekam are as intelligent and discriminatins as the TBs hailing SV, RK, AG etc as saviours!! we must remember the adage in malayalam "pothu janam kazhuthayaanu" meaning "the public is an ass". we, the so-called brainy, superior TBs are no better, I feel. or is it that those who sing paeans of these "gurus/yogis" have some vested interests, unknown to me? or, is it the relics of some teen age hero worship recommended by parents for hero worship?

Dear Sarma,

Tell me friend, what harm Vivekananda and Ramakrishna or Sri Aurobindo did to Hinduism? The greatest contribution was in giving us the self-confidence. What are their darker sides? RK Mission might have stagnated , but that can expected of an institution that is now more 100 years old.

For someone who lived for only 39 years, his work is nothing short of phenomenal.

I don't say that you must idolise him, but look at it dispassionately. Even the shortcomings such as smoking can be called minor abberations, even if they to be stringently called deviant behaviour for a sanyassi. He himself was to say he has enough rajas. You should be knowing that ascectics in north India do smoke.

If you are able to present authentic stories on their darker sides, I am prepared to look at them.

With regards,
Swami

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

TO ALL,
I want to share my experience with all.Before I entered Government of INDIA service,my friends and some elders used to tell me that I am having lot of negative thinking,I joined the AUDIT department in 1954. I became a fault finding machine and a critic.I was always suspicious of people.Even good and sound advice I used to take with a pinch of salt.One gentleman(elder to me by 10 years) who was also in my office became my 'Mentor'.
Thanks to him I slowly changed myself and my way of thinking.While every one gets negative thinking easily, one is required to cultivate the habit of positive thinking.
My mentor is still alive and is living in Kumbakonam.
I have read once an article written by Mr.INDIRESAN( former Director of I.I.T. Chennai) in HINDU newspaper about negative thinking specially with reference to DMK party's ideology of 'Brahmin Hatred'.
According to him negative policies will be successful in the beginning,but in the long run there will be stagnation in thinking with no further progress.
To Mr.Sarma-61,
As suggested by Mr.Swami, You may present authentic Stories on the darker sides of not only SV,RK but other spiritual personalities like Bhagvan Ramana Maharishi,Ramalinga Adigalar and anyother great persons.
Earlier there was a thread 'Spiritual Frauds' which lead to some sensitive members stop contributing to this forum or leaving the Forum.Members who are thick skinned like me will continue in this forum at least for
'time pass' as Mr.Nara had commented in some other thread.
ONE request.Please open a separate thread for this purpose.This thread was started by Mr.Siva with noble intentions and to admire the works of SV for Vedantic Philosophy of Hindus.

 

[Haridasa Siva]

"negative policies will be successful in the beginning,but in the long run there will be stagnation in thinking with no further progress" - What a word of wisdom! And a good suggestion to Sarma-61. We see such a regret from VR's side in this thread. There will always be people who find fault with anyone/anything. But that does not make the other person bad. I like the post of SwamiTaBra at post 48 as well. Viveka would remain the idol of every Hindu and every Indian forever.