Tapas, Meditation and Mind Control

[zebra16]

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I understand the basic meaning of tapas as austerity, and meditation as contemplation or deep contemplation. Besides these what are the distinguishing features of the two? Is austerity a must for meditation or it just facilitates meditation?

When mind is contemplating on a particular subject, after a few minutes (in some cases after a few seconds), I find that the mind has drifted away to a totally unrelated matter. It is once again the mind that brings to my notice that the other portion of mind has drifted away. Are there two divisions in the mind, one keeping watching over the other? Are various divisions of mind possible?

Is it possible to think on two topics simultaneously ? While doing rituals like pooja etc. the mind is more focussed on the physical activity while chanting the relevant mantram or slokam etc. How is it possible to contemplate on the mantram or slokam and its meaning or symbolism etc. when engaged in a physical activity even if it is a mandated ritual? Either the mind or the body is in auto mode.

I have attempted amateurish meditation on self, and the application of Neti Neti logic and at least intellectually can regard my hands, legs, eyes etc. as Not Me but as my appendage. How is it possible to go beyond the mind the faculty that makes me aware of my consciousness?

On the topic of contemplation. on any topic be it secular or religious or metaphysical, the contemplation stops with the knowledge stored in the brain and meets the dead end thereafter. How to progress beyond that, except by indulging in some wild speculation of what could be or what might be?

What is needed to cross the mind barrier? Divine Grace, intuition or something else?

Looking for guidance from members based on their experience and knowledge.

Thanks

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Narayan Sir,

The body or mind goes to auto mode, when the practice makes one perfect! It is possible to do two or more work at a time.

You must have heard about 'astAvadhAni's and 'dasAvadhAni's.

I shall give my experience. When I sing well-practiced songs, my mind can think of the next day's schedule of work, without

making any mistakes in the song. I can also find out the mistakes my student makes, while singing! Cool, right?


The answer given for a Q is interesting; hence sharing it here:

[SUP]''Q: Spiritually which person is called as Ashtavadhani?

A:'Avadhaanam' means careful observation and mental registration. 'Ashta' means eight. A person who is able to observe, simultaneously,

eight different subjects and respond without error is called an 'Ashtaavadaani'. There is no spiritualism in this but only capability, by practice.''

Source: [/SUP]Ashtavadhani


Regarding 'crossing the mind barrier', more experienced members will share their view!

 

[sangom]

I understand the basic meaning of tapas as austerity, and meditation as contemplation or deep contemplation. Besides these what are the distinguishing features of the two? Is austerity a must for meditation or it just facilitates meditation?

When mind is contemplating on a particular subject, after a few minutes (in some cases after a few seconds), I find that the mind has drifted away to a totally unrelated matter. It is once again the mind that brings to my notice that the other portion of mind has drifted away. Are there two divisions in the mind, one keeping watching over the other? Are various divisions of mind possible?

Is it possible to think on two topics simultaneously ? While doing rituals like pooja etc. the mind is more focussed on the physical activity while chanting the relevant mantram or slokam etc. How is it possible to contemplate on the mantram or slokam and its meaning or symbolism etc. when engaged in a physical activity even if it is a mandated ritual? Either the mind or the body is in auto mode.

I have attempted amateurish meditation on self, and the application of Neti Neti logic and at least intellectually can regard my hands, legs, eyes etc. as Not Me but as my appendage. How is it possible to go beyond the mind the faculty that makes me aware of my consciousness?

On the topic of contemplation. on any topic be it secular or religious or metaphysical, the contemplation stops with the knowledge stored in the brain and meets the dead end thereafter. How to progress beyond that, except by indulging in some wild speculation of what could be or what might be?

What is needed to cross the mind barrier? Divine Grace, intuition or something else?

Looking for guidance from members based on their experience and knowledge.

Thanks

The word "tapas" comes from the root "tap" (to give out heat, to burn, to shine, etc.). Most of our puranic descriptions of tapas were, therefore, the scribes' imagination running riot over such meanings of the word. Meditation is an english word and I am not sure whether 'dhyaana' is its exact equivalent in sanskrit, but I am assuming so.

Let us therefore leave aside tapas because it is nothing more than poetic blah, blah IMO. Coming to dhyaana, the root dhyai means to have in mind, to ponder, to reflect upon, etc. Our minds are prone to change the object of thoughts very rapidly. I feel it is one way the human beings are able to "multi-task" and survive. Hence, if you have very great interest in knowing something or about something, continue pondering about that point and do not bother at all about the way our thoughts go on changing rather rapidly. Secondly, there is no proper time or place for thinking about a point which you are keen to know about; like Archimedes the solution may come in the bath tub or even in the toilet seat.

It is not at all possible for anyone to go beyond mind & brain barrier. BTW, if you go on contemplating, you will realize how your own physical body itself is just an apparatus set up for an elaborate experiment, the drama of your life, and how extremely complicated and unknowable some aspects of our physiology are. But, our traditional religious machinery has complicated all these rather straight forward facts so that ordinary people like you and me, are bewildered into believing all the rest of the trash which religion tries to force-feed us.

My advice, therefore, is don't get influenced by the religion mumbo-jumbo of breaking the mind barrier and so on, but if you have a concrete question or point in your mind/brain, go on thinking about it; not at all necessary to have uninterrupted thinking. There is no such thing as Divine Grace, you will realize this as you go on pondering more and more; whatever, people ascribe to the so-called divine grace is due to "adriShTam" unseen factors that means, and for that, one must have adequate good karmas in the past. Personally, I feel there is nothing to be gained by striving to go beyond the human limitations with which the body has been created.

 

[renuka]

Dear Zebra Ji,

I have no experience in meditation but I can share some info on this.

Yes..you are right..the mind tends to drift after a few seconds even while hearing a lecture...then all of a sudden we remind ourselves to stay focus and we stop drifting only for the cycle of alert..drift to repeat again and again.

This is purely a physical phenomenon.When we concentrate on doing something our neurons start to fire and just like any other cell in the body it needs substrate.
The neuronal cells first use lactate then it uses glycogen.

If these substrates are not found or used up becos of intense concentration the neurons starts to get fatigued and we experience a dip in our attention what we call mind drifting away.

Its just the neurons taking a break..then when sufficient rest is got by the neurons..our subconscious 'reminds" us that we need to concentrate again becos that was the original input.

So frankly speaking I wont be too worried of any wandering mind..its just like how our muscles work too..just say we are running a long distance after a while we get tired becos of muscle fatigue mainly due to a using up of substrates like glucose and glycogen in the body..so we slow down running..rest and then run again.

That is why I do not believe in meditation and mind control..why force our mind to over concentrate? The neurons will start to get fatigue after a few seconds and its normal for the mind to wander.

Forcing the mind to stay focus will only resort to extremely low energy levels in the brain and who knows these can trigger hallucinations and man found religion!

 

[auh]

How is it possible to go beyond the mind the faculty that makes me aware of my consciousness?

I think, we should first try to ascertain if there is a faculty that exists beyond the mind, as you have described. Otherwise it would just be a 'ilavu kaatha kili" story. Seriously, how do we do that?

 

[sravna]

The idea behind meditation is to gain self control. What does self control mean? It is the ability of a person to be not affected by pressure or temptations. He is completely balanced in any situation and so such self control is invaluable. Success comes very easily to such a person in the material world as he thinks in the right way and takes the right decisions all the time.

The above ability according to our scriptures comes after innumerable births when the mind finally matures. Tapas, meditation etc seems to me like alternate ways to acquire the same ability by forcing the mind to be in a imperturbable state. Sage Viswamitra is one example where intense tapas gave him immense mind power.

Even if one is not able to reach such high levels, I think one can definitely improve self through constant meditation

 

[sangom]

The idea behind meditation is to gain self control. What does self control mean? It is the ability of a person to be not affected by pressure or temptations. He is completely balanced in any situation and so such self control is invaluable. Success comes very easily to such a person in the material world as he thinks in the right way and takes the right decisions all the time.

The above ability according to our scriptures comes after innumerable births when the mind finally matures. Tapas, meditation etc seems to me like alternate ways to acquire the same ability by forcing the mind to be in a imperturbable state. Sage Viswamitra is one example where intense tapas gave him immense mind power.

Even if one is not able to reach such high levels, I think one can definitely improve self through constant meditation

What Shri Sravna has written above is what our hindu religion says. But this is exactly what I said as, "our traditional religious machinery has complicated all these rather straight forward facts so that ordinary people like you and me, are bewildered..." etc.I have seen any number of very ordinary persons, both male and female, who have developed the 'self control', 'completely balanced in any situation', etc., because these people had to live within large joint families and that training itself had possibly given them all these qualities.

We must also note that the same abaddha panchAngam story of Viswamitra states that when he was doing the so-called tapas, menaka, one of the apsarases went near him and the said viswamitra got sexually aroused so much that he immediately fathered Shakuntala! Again, the same visvamitra had an ongoing enmity with vasishTha to prove that the latter was no match for him in supernatural powers, believed to have been possessed by most rishis of yore. If all the tapas could not make viswamitra to acquire even a bit of self-control, it will be foolish on the part of any rational person to believe all this fairy tale stories about tapas, etc.

 

[tks]

I understand the basic meaning of tapas as austerity, and meditation as contemplation or deep contemplation. Besides these what are the distinguishing features of the two? Is austerity a must for meditation or it just facilitates meditation?

When mind is contemplating on a particular subject, after a few minutes (in some cases after a few seconds), I find that the mind has drifted away to a totally unrelated matter. It is once again the mind that brings to my notice that the other portion of mind has drifted away. Are there two divisions in the mind, one keeping watching over the other? Are various divisions of mind possible?

Is it possible to think on two topics simultaneously ? While doing rituals like pooja etc. the mind is more focussed on the physical activity while chanting the relevant mantram or slokam etc. How is it possible to contemplate on the mantram or slokam and its meaning or symbolism etc. when engaged in a physical activity even if it is a mandated ritual? Either the mind or the body is in auto mode.

I have attempted amateurish meditation on self, and the application of Neti Neti logic and at least intellectually can regard my hands, legs, eyes etc. as Not Me but as my appendage. How is it possible to go beyond the mind the faculty that makes me aware of my consciousness?

On the topic of contemplation. on any topic be it secular or religious or metaphysical, the contemplation stops with the knowledge stored in the brain and meets the dead end thereafter. How to progress beyond that, except by indulging in some wild speculation of what could be or what might be?

What is needed to cross the mind barrier? Divine Grace, intuition or something else?

Looking for guidance from members based on their experience and knowledge.

Thanks

Sri Narayanan - What is the larger objective that led you to raise these questions at this time?

 

[Raji Ram]

Self control is not achieved by meditation alone! A person will have self control, if good values are taught by the elders in the family.

Hence my family circle has pure vegetarians and teetotallers, in spite of having close friends who eat non.veg and drink spirit!

 

[sangom]

Self control is not achieved by meditation alone! A person will have self control, if good values are taught by the elders in the family.

Hence my family circle has pure vegetarians and teetotallers, in spite of having close friends who eat non.veg and drink spirit!

Self control, discussed here, I think, is very different from good values, vegetarianism, being teetotaller etc. Self control will not come simply by elders teaching good values to the children. Each person (here, each of the children) will grow up in his or her own unique way and some may not have self-control.

 

[Raji Ram]

Self control, discussed here, I think, is very different from good values, vegetarianism, being teetotaller etc. Self control will not come simply by elders teaching good values to the children. Each person (here, each of the children) will grow up in his or her own unique way and some may not have self-control.

Dear Sir,

It needs self control to follow good values, whether they are taught by parents or derived from observation!

What you write about children is also correct because they need NOT take the advice of the elders in the family.

I have seen some 'modAk kudi' sons of teetotaller mAmAs and vice versa too!

 

[renuka]

Self control is not achieved by meditation alone! A person will have self control, if good values are taught by the elders in the family.

Hence my family circle has pure vegetarians and teetotallers, in spite of having close friends who eat non.veg and drink spirit!

Dear RR ji,

I am also pure veg,dont drink..dont smoke..dont wear silk/leather..no coffee/tea/cocoa..hardly have friends(only online friends) but I do not consider all these due becos of self control.

This is just lifestyle.

I will give you another example..many Hindu gangsters too do not eat beef becos of a Hindu upbringing....they go to temple regularly and even do big time Homas.
They too visit pilgrimage sites yet indulge in gangsterism.

So he does not eat beef becos he has been conditioned that a Hindu should not eat beef and he never developed the taste for it.Its not becos of self control that he does not eat beef but its becos of lifestyle.


A suicide bomber from the Middle east would not eat pork becos of his understanding of the values of his religion..its not self control again..its just lifestyle habits.


In fact I feel the word Self Control sounds as if we are trying our very best to stay away from something..sort of fighting a desire..one only needs to exert self control if he still desires something.

Self control comes into the play when someone wants something but knows its not good to do so and fights with himself and stays away from it.

That is just outer self control..a man may see a beautiful woman and lust for her but being married he might not want to venture into an affair so he controls himself externally but internally nothing stops him from fantasizing.

So is there self control here?

Nope!

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

The way I meant the word self control is transcending external effects. In a person with self control the inner self is not at all affected by anything external. So in that sense it is not trying to consciously control the external influences.

 

[zebra16]

Sri Narayanan - What is the larger objective that led you to raise these questions at this time?

The larger objective is to be a better person than what I am presently

 

[zebra16]

I think, we should first try to ascertain if there is a faculty that exists beyond the mind, as you have described. Otherwise it would just be a 'ilavu kaatha kili" story. Seriously, how do we do that?

Frankly I do not know. But upaniSads do state (we can think of them as assertions for the present) "yathO vAchO nivarthanthE, aprApya manasA saha" etc, (from where words all together return alongwith the mind unable to comprehend the brahman or the bliss of brahman etc.) so what is the faculty that existed for them to know it? It does not seem to be the opinion of a single sage because we find that the idea is expanded by other upaniSads obviously taught by different rishis.

Then there are BG slokAs which are often quoted like "karmaNye vAdhikAraste" meaning that we may not get the results in all actions. But there are some actions where we find results are invariably given.. like for example when we eat our hunger goes away, when we drink water our thirst vanishes, when we beat a metal sheet with hammer the sheet bends etc. in each and every case. Why does not the Lord with-hold the results in those cases at least at times to bestow the results in some other janmam and only in some cases we are exposed to the vagaries of deferred delivery of fruits?

What is the criterion for classification for "kai mel phalan" and "arasan andru kolvAn, deivam nindru kollum"..? types of actions and results.

Thats why i seek guidance

 

[sangom]

The larger objective is to be a better person than what I am presently

Dear Shri Narayanan,

One cannot become a "better person" in the same way as one can become a "muscular person", or even a "taller person" or a "more handsome/beautiful person" etc. If a person really feels that he/she has certain definite drawbacks/deficiencies which adversely affect his personality projected outwards (or even not so projected), then the most appropriate way is to identify and list our all those negatives and try to overcome/eradicate those. If this is also not possible, like in cases of drug addiction, alcoholism, depression, etc., the advice of a competent professional should be sought. Today we have the facilities for all these.

What our religion says about 'going beyond the mind, buddhi, etc.,' are all to be taken, if at all, with a large pinch of salt. I have known a few sure cases of innocent people who believed all those tall claims in the religious texts and ended up as lunatics or mental cases.

In this forum, you will surely get some wise people coming forward to quote from many texts and lead you up the garden path, but my sincere advice is not to fall for any such thing.

 

[Raji Ram]

The larger objective is to be a better person than what I am presently

Now, you may have to define 'A better person'!

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

You need self control to keep off certain things, IF you have many real life friends!

You are safe to have online friends; you need not even entertain them with any sort of party!

 

[renuka]

The larger objective is to be a better person than what I am presently

Why? What is wrong with you now?

I feel acceptance of one's self is the best thing to do.

No need to judge or grade ourselves.

There is no such thing as a better or a worse person.

Many feel that they can undergo 'spiritual detox' to become a 'better' person..but frankly can we really metamorphosize? Are we humans actually graded into worst,bad, good,better,best?

"Existing" is the simplest.

Believe me I have professionally seen cases of those who embarked on the journey to become 'better' and they were eventually diagnosed with delusion.

 

[zebra16]

Dear Narayan Sir,

The body or mind goes to auto mode, when the practice makes one perfect! It is possible to do two or more work at a time.

You must have heard about 'astAvadhAni's and 'dasAvadhAni's.

I shall give my experience. When I sing well-practiced songs, my mind can think of the next day's schedule of work, without

making any mistakes in the song. I can also find out the mistakes my student makes, while singing! Cool, right?


The answer given for a Q is interesting; hence sharing it here:

[SUP]''Q: Spiritually which person is called as Ashtavadhani?

A:'Avadhaanam' means careful observation and mental registration. 'Ashta' means eight. A person who is able to observe, simultaneously,

eight different subjects and respond without error is called an 'Ashtaavadaani'. There is no spiritualism in this but only capability, by practice.''

Source: [/SUP]Ashtavadhani


Regarding 'crossing the mind barrier', more experienced members will share their view!

Mrs RR,

Thank you for your inputs. I had not heard about ashtAvadhAni or dashAvadhAni. I will try to gather some information there.

When I was in Maharashtra, I had come across people having avadhAni as surname, especially in Solapur district and I thought they were probably Sindhis because most of Sindhi surnames end with -Ani.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

You need self control to keep off certain things, IF you have many real life friends!

You are safe to have online friends; you need not even entertain them with any sort of party!

Dear RR ji,

I have been invited to some Non Hindu weddings where there is free flow of alcohol and people were telling me to take a sip of their home made wine.

My answer was simple: I dont drink.

My own brothers are not vegetarians..only my parents,husband and I are vegetarian.
My brothers eat non veg in front of me..I do not feel tempted cos I prefer being a vegetarian.

So where is the need to exert self control?

Its just a matter of choice.

All my staff are non veg(muslims) they eat non veg in my work place..it does not make me tempted to eat cos that is not what I want to eat.

Its all about personal choice and nothing else.

Those who claim they fell prey to pressure from friends would have harbored the desire to try something new and then when they are 'caught' they claim they were influenced by others.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

The way I meant the word self control is transcending external effects. In a person with self control the inner self is not at all affected by anything external. So in that sense it is not trying to consciously control the external influences.

Dear Sravna,

I agree.

In a way that would be a better word to use instead of Self Control..I would like to just alter it slightly that is ..Transcending External Influence.

Becos if we use the word effect..and effect can only happen when something had already exerted its influence.If something never influenced us it would not have an effect.

But a person who is totally not bothered for anything could be mistaken for a person who has transcended external influence cos outwardly its might appear the same.

So how are we to know if we have a care a damn attitude or truly transcended external influence.

Any idea?

 

[Raji Ram]

........ Those who claim they fell prey to pressure from friends would have harbored the desire to try something new and then when they are 'caught' they claim they were influenced by others.

Dear Renu,

Not always! Even those who don't desire, might fall prey to the pressure of friends.

And, that is when one needs a strong mind to control oneself! :thumb:

 

[sravna]

So how are we to know if we have a care a damn attitude or truly transcended external influence.

Any idea?

Dear Renuka,

They are more or less the same. You say one has transcended an external influence when he has risen above all. Also it is not a negative feeling

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

Not always! Even those who don't desire, might fall prey to the pressure of friends.

And, that is when one needs a strong mind to control oneself! :thumb:

Dear RR ji,

I will tell you a little story about self control.

When I was in college one of the guys in different faculty knew a local don quite well.

He told us that the local don had some rules and regulations that he does not consume non veg and alcohol on Fridays.

So one day this guy had gone drinking with the local don and his buddies on Thursday nite and were eating non veg too..at when they clock struck 12 midnight it was officially Friday and the don stopped drinking and eating non veg while all his buddies continued to eat and drink.

So all the buddies of the don were singing praises of their don's self control.

When I heard this story I was thinking "what is the big deal..when the clock strikes midnight again and it would be Saturday he would start drinking again"!