The Biggest Obstacle in Tamil Brahmin marriages-HOROSCOPE matching

[sankara_sharmah]

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I started this discussion for the benefit of thousands of Tamil Brahmin parents who are worried about the marriage of their Girls/boys.

There is a general impression that Horoscope Matching for marriages is laid down in the scriptures and it is the duty of the Brahmins to get it done. No scripture advises you to do this. It is not laid down in the Dharmasasthras.

It is only a traditional practice. That is all. By not matching of Horoscope you do not fail in your duty as a Brahmin.

As Brahmins we are expected to know astrology because we have to fix the auspicious time for the various rituals like the different Samsakaras and Yagnas.

The discussion also proves a point that it is difficult to find out whether any horoscope is cast correctly. Every astrologer swears that his casting is the correct one.

There is also an impression that our community has been strictly following this for generations. Far from true. My father (who would have been 110 if he was alive) used to remark about this. Marriages were arranges depending upon convenience. Mama's and Atthai's sons were given exceptions. The idea was to retain the family property.

My great grand father who was a very successful lawyer had 8 daughters. He visited the local schools, selected bright boys from poor families and got them married to his daughters. Then he financed their education and ensured their worldly success. Again my ancestors had picked up poor but beautiful girls and got them married to their sons. My great grand mother was even paid a dowry because she was so beautiful. That is how they ensured bright and good looking progeny. Not by Horoscope matching. They never bothered about it.

My family is not an exception. All propertied Brahmin families did it.

Check up with your grand mothers if you do not believe me.

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

I think "ஜாதகம் பொருத்தமில்லை" according to our Josier is a subtle & polite way of stopping further proceedings in the alliance when it may be due reason they do not want to disclose. This I experienced while looking for alliance for my second son Jambu:embarassed:

 

[kunjuppu]

I started this discussion for the benefit of thousands of Tamil Brahmin parents who are worried about the marriage of their Girls/boys.

There is a general impression that Horoscope Matching for marriages is laid down in the scriptures and it is the duty of the Brahmins to get it done. No scripture advises you to do this. It is not laid down in the Dharmasasthras.

It is only a traditional practice. That is all. By not matching of Horoscope you do not fail in your duty as a Brahmin.

As Brahmins we are expected to know astrology because we have to fix the auspicious time for the various rituals like the different Samsakaras and Yagnas.

The discussion also proves a point that it is difficult to find out whether any horoscope is cast correctly. Every astrologer swears that his casting is the correct one.

There is also an impression that our community has been strictly following this for generations. Far from true. My father (who would have been 110 if he was alive) used to remark about this. Marriages were arranges depending upon convenience. Mama's and Atthai's sons were given exceptions. The idea was to retain the family property.

My great grand father who was a very successful lawyer had 8 daughters. He visited the local schools, selected bright boys from poor families and got them married to his daughters. Then he financed their education and ensured their worldly success. Again my ancestors had picked up poor but beautiful girls and got them married to their sons. My great grand mother was even paid a dowry because she was so beautiful. That is how they ensured bright and good looking progeny. Not by Horoscope matching. They never bothered about it.

My family is not an exception. All propertied Brahmin families did it.

Check up with your grand mothers if you do not believe me.

very interesting note jambu. puts the entire wedding process in a different light. more materialistic wise, and nothing wrong with that.

but quite a different tune than the prevalent belief that 'weddings are decided in heaven' or something like that.

weddings, per your note, are decided by common sense and best intertests of the family. this makes more sense than blind jathaga porutham, which i think, has been disastrous to our community.

 

[RVR]

In our village agraharam we had almost 65 houses in the early days. We had a cluster of few more villages belonging to our sub sect and mostly alliances were concluded within these villages only.

We had a vaishnavite astrologer in a nearby village who use to match the horoscopes. Divorces were not prevalent those days due to illiteracy of ladies.

Alliances with Athai or Mama ponnu were exempted from horoscope matching.

Few of the couples didn't had Santhana Bagyam which was made good by adoptions within the closed circles.

Young ladies, who lose their husband at the early ages. have to curse themselves and carry on with rest of their life. However males use to get married again and enjoy the rest of their life without any problem.

But all the above was accepted way of life and people managed to live without showing any descent outwardly at least.

But things have changed very much now.

There is no community life like what we had in the villages.

Girls study very well, probably better than the boys and choose their carriers of their choice.

She doesn't depend on her parents or spouse or in laws for anything. Even at young age, they learn to live in a ladies hostel without the hindrance of any of the relatives.

She would have seen her mother's suffering at the hands of her paternal grand parents and would have made up her mind long back not to subject herself to such treatment at any cost.

Since marriages are not happening within the closed circles, there are no elders on both sides to advise if some differences of opinion crops up after marriage.

Even a small flare up may result in divorce.

On the one side we are embarrassing materialistic way of life and on the other side, we don't want to give up our customs and practices.

Since our community is basically against divorce, we have started looking to astrologers to avoid and prevent future complications.

Astrology which was playing a lighter role in alliances in the early days has now come to play a major role.

Horoscope has become an important component in one's life.

If the real horoscope doesn't reflect positive planetary positions, people don't mind even altering the horoscope to suit their convenience.

It is an endless game.

I wish people try and get alliances within known circles (Not necessarily close blood relations) so that lot of problems could be sorted out without being even noticed.

Recently all our community members of our village origin reassembled in our village and performed abisekams in a grand manner at all our village temples jointly. On the side lines, lot of people were discussing alliances for their wards.

I am sure some alliances will materialize out of the discussions in the near future. If `Mana Porutham' is achieved, then other things will get a back seat. I earnestly feel revival of community life to some extent will solve lot of problems. More marriages will get settled at a faster phase since parents of both boy and girl may know each other.

Seeking alliances through internet seems to be an easy method. But in actual practice, it is not happening very easily. We think that there are multiple choices but the other side also has multiple choices. Negotiations are going on with multiple choices simultaneously and end result may be zero.

I earnestly feel that people should try to seek alliances through known circles without going through matrimony sites. It will definitely help in concluding alliances at faster phase.

All the best

 

[kunjuppu]

rvr,

the past few years, i know of more than 6 weddings matched through internet - a couple of them india/usa matches which has worked out well.

also the other matches were for TBs who married other hindus but not TBs. so for folks brought up abroad, internet is a medium which offers introduction, and develop queries/intimacies in a private manner.

this forum is a part of our community. i have broached a couple of members re alliances. all i did, is to introduce the member with an outside party and let them take it from there. in a way the cyber samooham is a reality and may have already replaced the proverbial thinnai of the old villages.

 

[RVR]

Kunjuppu ji,

Internet may be ok for people staying abroad. But for within the country and within Tamilnadu, known circles will produce better and faster results.

All the best

 

[nachi naga]

NN, I don't know how you figured "most" are like that, but, leaving that aside, anyone claiming to be a rationalist and also believes in astrology is not a rationalist, but a hypocrite, no less than those who criticize science while enjoying all the benefits derived from it.

Cheers!

nara

i have a way of figurings things out,which is patently secretive for now.If we go by your statement,then there are no rationalists in this world today,but a ton of hypocrites.

Coming to topic,horoscope matching between a bride and bridegroom prospective of course,using,the dob pob tob asfundamental parameters,to understand via jyotisham shastram of various acharyalls,is one way of doing it in sanathana dharma.this is our practice of spiritual science.

if,the doctor is a moron,does the medical field become a moron?

so,simply put,astrology is a science,the practioner's of it have to fine tune their art of horoscope matching,foretelling,so that credibility for this ancient science gets glorified,as per our sanathana dharma.

if,for some reasons christians today have lost faith in astrology,its becoz the fundamental parameters of astronmy needs updating,as even the birth of jesus christ was foretold by ancient jyotisham shastras practioners,and they did follow the stars in heaven to arrive at Nazareth,to see the Nazarene.

lord krishna's birth was foretold prior to even 2010 years back,therefore,to belittle this spiritual science,will incur harmful karmas in this birth itself let alone future births.

 

[nachi naga]

ss

I started this discussion for the benefit of thousands of Tamil Brahmin parents who are worried about the marriage of their Girls/boys.

what a wonderful sentiment,may your tribe increase.

There is a general impression that Horoscope Matching for marriages is laid down in the scriptures and it is the duty of the Brahmins to get it done. No scripture advises you to do this. It is not laid down in the Dharmasasthras.

Scriptures are so many.Can you name them.Our anand gave a link to kamakoti.org read what Maha Swamigal Kanchi says.I mean,he is a living legend,unless one wants to pooh poooh him too.

It is only a traditional practice. That is all. By not matching of Horoscope you do not fail in your duty as a Brahmin.

Can you please enumerate to us,as to what duties of what sects of brahmins must follow or not follow.i think your yeoman service will be greatly appreciated with gratitude.

As Brahmins we are expected to know astrology because we have to fix the auspicious time for the various rituals like the different Samsakaras and Yagnas.

who is expecting us?to follow?our rules and rituals?and who are they?

The discussion also proves a point that it is difficult to find out whether any horoscope is cast correctly. Every astrologer swears that his casting is the correct one.

science dynamically keeps changing its findings repeatedly.why our acharyas interpretation should also not follow it ie keep changing their interpretations??sun rise to sun rise is one day,is one theory.sun set to sun set is anther theory.12 midnight is the start of a day is another theory.between these three theories,humanity is living life.ayanamsham occurs owing to astronomy of earth with comparison to fixed constellations,which jyotisham is refered as sidereal astrology.our ancient acharyas got the astronomy correct.becoz its fashinable to accept only when west hasapproved with its stamp of approval,indians today accept things in india

There is also an impression that our community has been strictly following this for generations. Far from true. My father (who would have been 110 if he was alive) used to remark about this. Marriages were arranges depending upon convenience. Mama's and Atthai's sons were given exceptions. The idea was to retain the family property.

maybe your family was thinking like that or it is your perception of your elders.many families believed in hereditary genes in humans as one of the causes of evolved thinking in life,so pursued matches within families.

My great grand father who was a very successful lawyer had 8 daughters. He visited the local schools, selected bright boys from poor families and got them married to his daughters. Then he financed their education and ensured their worldly success. Again my ancestors had picked up poor but beautiful girls and got them married to their sons. My great grand mother was even paid a dowry because she was so beautiful. That is how they ensured bright and good looking progeny. Not by Horoscope matching. They never bothered about it.

nice to know,successful people of yores modus operandi and thanks for sharing with us,your perceptions about it.

My family is not an exception. All propertied Brahmin families did it.

really.

Check up with your grand mothers if you do not believe me.

my great grandmother says,it was NOT the only consideration,but many other factors of far more importance played a part.and she says we shud listen to our kula gurus only.

 

[C RAVI]

Well said Sri RVR ji and Sri Kunjuppu ji, in post #29 and #30 respectively,

There are lots of uncertainties in the perfectness of horoscope casting. There are contradictory views on hand casting and computer casting of horoscopes. As a matter of fact, different computerized horoscope casting soft-wares are differentiating with each other in some or the other ways.

Possibility of finding genuine and competent astrologers seems to be bleak and the horoscopes in their consideration for matching are subject to its perfection.

Horoscope matching of a boy and a girl can be accurate only if both the horoscopes are perfectly prepared. Accurate planetary configurations of both the horoscopes are the must to derive all the compatibilities (10 poruthams).

With all the probable errors, the practice of horoscope matching of a boy and girl for marriage seems to be baseless. There are cases where horoscope matches well and the final decision of a boy and or a girl or their parents terminates the marriage possibilities. In reverse, many wrong horoscope matching suspends ideal marriages to happen.

The only best system to adopt for good marriages to take place would be, the acceptance of ignoring the practice of horoscope matching and making up of the mindset by both the parents towards encouraging suitable interactions between the boy and the girl in order to help them to get to know each other. This would help both the boy and the girl to take the best decision as per their interests and compatibilities.

In my opinion, believing in astrology and seeking predictions as guidance for one self on personal levels for various life events can reasonably be accepted. But for a relationship with an individual, horoscope matching, I feel would turn out to be the most crucial stigma of our society.

We live with our parents and siblings who all are closely related to us having unique individuality. Each of the family members has their own individuality and the horoscope’s planetary configuration varies. Still in the name of parents, sons & daughters, siblings, we love each other and try our level best in sustaining good relationship for ever.

Likewise a boy and a girl after having reasonable level of communication, understanding each other, finding the vibes matching, and when could start liking each other, can then get into marriage relationship. Once married, the couple should have the love, respect and dedication towards each other, carrying the sense of dignity and responsibilities towards family life, should try the level best to live a peaceful and happy life together. Two individuals from two different families, living together is truly tough. A great sense of responsibilities, maturity and patience can help sustaining the relationship.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Before I start, I come from a family where almost everyone is well-versed in astrology. Any family meeting will always lead to long conversation about horoscopes. I grew up surrounded by books on astrology. I was a regular reader of B.V. Raman's Astrological Magazine. Dabbled with Krishnamoorthi Paddhathi for some time. My house library has at least 50 books on Astrology. In Sanskrit, English and Tamil. My wife and eldest son are also well versed in astrology.

The above introduction was necessary to show that I have no prejudice against astrology.

Right from the good old days boys and girls of marriageable age have riled against this system of Horoscope Matching. Because it often prevented alliances between families known to each other for generations and even marriage with Mama's/Atthai's daughter. The we all have heard of stories of bribing the astrologer.

In the days of my Grandfather, they were not rigid about this. When the families are known to each other well, they used to do Pookatti Parckal. That is how my parents got married.

Now I have been very active in arranging the marriages of my children, and nieces. When we insert an advertisement in the Hindu we do get a number of replies. But very few horoscopes match. I have seen excellent alliances go by because of this factor. The final match may not be as good as the one who got away because of the horoscope.

There is no stastical data to prove that horoscope matching ensures a happy marriage. If that were so there should be no widows and widowers in the community. Even marriages have their share of good, bad, and ugly marriages.

Then why are we insisting on it? There will be more success stories in the Swayamvarams if the Horoscope Matching is done away with. It would make the life of the average Tamil Brahmin easier.

I am not talking about the system of horoscope matching. Its defects, effect of different ayanamsas, different type of Poruthams etc. and show how the system is basically defective. That would be too technical.

If the subject is approached with a desire that it should favour me, you have a problem. The Universe is created by him and is worked by him. One who has not at all tried to get married, gets married and one who filters umpteen horoscopes finds not a match but ends up filtering. The mind, when you are in search, tells you earlier or later or never to choose. Listen to the mind. After the event you will find the answer why it happened that way. Problem with us is that we insist but we cannot accept.

 

[Iyest]

If we go by your statement,then there are no rationalists in this world today,but a ton of hypocrites.

NN, I was afraid this thread sooner or later was bound to get heated. Anyway you are correct. One is a rationalist so long as others suffer. One becomes a traditionalist when he suffers.

if,the doctor is a moron,does the medical field become a moron?

The only difference is that public certification of skills gives a higher probablity of success with doctors than with astrologers. But when it comes to software errors and different charts for the same person, medicine and astrology are in the same boat. In all my (long!) life, I have never got the same readings from any two labs in madras whenever I do a blood test. And in many cases my readings of sugar, cholesterol etc are vastly different from different labs! So small differences in charts are a relatively minor matter.

even the birth of jesus christ was foretold by ancient jyotisham shastras practioners,and they did follow the stars in heaven to arrive at Nazareth,to see the Nazarene.

lord krishna's birth was foretold prior to even 2010 years back,therefore,to belittle this spiritual science,will incur harmful karmas in this birth itself let alone future births.

Not to forget lord Buddha's birth today being buddha poornima. Everything was foretold and happened exactly as predicted. And all efforts by the king himself to prevent them failed.

 

[nachi naga]

Iyest

Not to forget lord Buddha's birth today being buddha poornima. Everything was foretold and happened exactly as predicted. And all efforts by the king himself to prevent them failed.

sir,what a classic masterpiece.I have quoted this in particular,to debate wherein,some people feel,jyotisham is not part of vedas or dharma shastras.Today NASA is able to send flights to moon,mars,..etc for research purposes,thereby helpinh humanity and in particular American's in a very small and limited way,just imagine,if NASA like organisation is there to win hearts of people world over,Americans will conquer universe itself,imo.sorry for straying with the topic,as i believe,rahu kalam is also factored by some scienticts in NASA,dunno how far this is true,as its hearsay.

i think horoscope matching is a tool,which can be standardised in all temples in India.A venue for opening new jobs,only thing is,people shud question astrologers fully and get satisfied,then take a decision,according to their whim and pleasure.

 

[Nara]

....If we go by your statement,then there are no rationalists in this world today,but a ton of hypocrites.

NN, what is there to discuss if you say things like this? It looks like you have made up your mind and you are not going to let facts get in the way. If you think some DK/DMK people are hypocrites, that is fine, I will join you in that criticism, but a blanket statement like the above leaves no room for any meaningful discussion.

...if,the doctor is a moron,does the medical field become a moron?

Quite so, but medical field is not based on some faith in some religious texts. Medical knowledge is ever expanding, self correcting, and based on scientific observations and experiments. Astrology is derived from one of the six subsidiary texts to the Vedas, Vedangam, i.e. it is based on immutable revealed text. The rules have been laid down and no changes are permitted. If you make any changes, it loses its authority. If this framework is followed in medicine, we will be doing a lot of bloodletting and letting leeches loose on patient's bodies. Comparing medicine and astrology is no more meaningful than a comparison between astrology and astronomy, or, alchemy and chemistry.

If astrology is a legitimate tool for predicting future events, or the planetary positions have impacts on human lives of very personal and varied nature, i.e. different effects upon different people, then its practitioners must band together and conduct scientific experiments and prove its efficacy beyond a reasonable doubt. There is enough resources available within the Brahmnical Matams. I was told a few months back, during BJP time, university level courses were established on astrology. People get college degrees on this stuff. So college resources can also be brought to bear. There are advanced statistical tools available that are eminently suitable for a study of this type.

If this can be done in a verifiable and repeatable manner, just imagine how many people can benefit. If proven, it will enjoy wide spread acceptance, much like modern medicine, and people world over will benefit. Therefore, those who believe in the usefulness of astrology have an ethical obligation to prove its veracity and make it available to the public in general, much like the scientists do in their respective fields. Not doing so is downright callous. Just saying sanatana darma, vedas, acharyas, is enough for the already faithful, but does not do anything for others.

....lord krishna's birth was foretold prior to even 2010 years back,therefore,to belittle this spiritual science,will incur harmful karmas in this birth itself let alone future births.

Prediction is an interesting thing. You know there is a pasuram from Nammazhvar's Thiruvaymozhi (5.2.1):

பொலிக பொலிக பொலிக, போயிற்று வல்லுயிர் சாபம்
நலியும் நரகமும் நைய்ந்தன மன்னுயிர்க்கு இங்கு
யாதொன்றும் இல்லை, கலியும் கெடும் கண்டுகொள்மின்
கடல்வண்ணன் பூதங்கள் மண் மேல் மலியப் புகுந்து இசை பாடி
​

SVs incessantly point to the last line of this pasuram and claim Nammazhvar foretold the arrival of Ramanuja or Desika, or Manavala Maamunigal, Athivan Satakopan, or whoever strikes one's fancy. There are verses in Bhagavatham that say great bhagavathas will appear in the banks of Thamaraparani. SVs to this day go ballistic that even Vyasa foretold the arrival of Azhvars. But, careful scientific analysis has clearly dated Bhagavatham as a later text to Azhvars. So much for predictions.

As for harmful karma, well, are you telling me that the god of sanatana darmam will punish me for an honest opinion I hold based on an honest evaluation of available facts? What happened to all his compassion we keep hearing?

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

nara,

NN, what is there to discuss if you say things like this? It looks like you have made up your mind and you are not going to let facts get in the way. If you think some DK/DMK people are hypocrites, that is fine, I will join you in that criticism, but a blanket statement like the above leaves no room for any meaningful discussion.

if i sounded offensive,my apologies,my intention was never that.i made up my mind on account of personal experiances.how to convey this is my problem,obviously i am being mis-understood.

Quite so, but medical field is not based on some faith in some religious texts. Medical knowledge is ever expanding, self correcting, and based on scientific observations and experiments. Astrology is derived from one of the six subsidiary texts to the Vedas, Vedangam, i.e. it is based on immutable revealed text. The rules have been laid down and no changes are permitted. If you make any changes, it loses its authority. If this framework is followed in medicine, we will be doing a lot of bloodletting and letting leeches loose on patient's bodies. Comparing medicine and astrology is no more meaningful than a comparison between astrology and astronomy, or, alchemy and chemistry.

its he interpretation of shastras in jyotisham,which is leading to all kind of confusion,per se.vidwans like sir b v raman,have brought about so many meanigful changes,so i am perplexed by your statement.

If astrology is a legitimate tool for predicting future events, or the planetary positions have impacts on human lives of very personal and varied nature, i.e. different effects upon different people, then its practitioners must band together and conduct scientific experiments and prove its efficacy beyond a reasonable doubt. There is enough resources available within the Brahmnical Matams. I was told a few months back, during BJP time, university level courses were established on astrology. People get college degrees on this stuff. So college resources can also be brought to bear. There are advanced statistical tools available that are eminently suitable for a study of this type.

bjp did a lot of good for jyotisham,and i do acknowledge their influence.statistical studies is a science,jyotisham parameters are wide,and to some complex permutation of rules.just becoz its complex,we cannot discard jyotisham as some mumbo jumbo.our weekdays are representation of 7 grahas only,even today.

If this can be done in a verifiable and repeatable manner, just imagine how many people can benefit. If proven, it will enjoy wide spread acceptance, much like modern medicine, and people world over will benefit. Therefore, those who believe in the usefulness of astrology have an ethical obligation to prove its veracity and make it available to the public in general, much like the scientists do in their respective fields. Not doing so is downright callous. Just saying sanatana darma, vedas, acharyas, is enough for the already faithful, but does not do anything for others.

safely i can write,indians believe in jyotisham.dunno about americans as such now.trust is something one needs to understand,dealing with a spiritual science.but you must verify it,which i welcome.

Prediction is an interesting thing. You know there is a pasuram from Nammazhvar's Thiruvaymozhi (5.2.1):

பொலிக பொலிக பொலிக, போயிற்று வல்லுயிர் சாபம்
நலியும் நரகமும் நைய்ந்தன மன்னுயிர்க்கு இங்கு
யாதொன்றும் இல்லை, கலியும் கெடும் கண்டுகொள்மின்
கடல்வண்ணன் பூதங்கள் மண் மேல் மலியப் புகுந்து இசை பாடி​

​

sv's believe a certain doctrine.i respect that.but to say,our doctrine is the only truth,i disagree.

SVs incessantly point to the last line of this pasuram and claim Nammazhvar foretold the arrival of Ramanuja or Desika, or Manavala Maamunigal, Athivan Satakopan, or whoever strikes one's fancy. There are verses in Bhagavatham that say great bhagavathas will appear in the banks of Thamaraparani. SVs to this day go ballistic that even Vyasa foretold the arrival of Azhvars. But, careful scientific analysis has clearly dated Bhagavatham as a later text to Azhvars. So much for predictions.

i don't think sv's are dumb to do that.we need to find evidence for your scientific analysis that you quote.please provide it.

As for harmful karma, well, are you telling me that the god of sanatana darmam will punish me for an honest opinion I hold based on an honest evaluation of available facts? What happened to all his compassion we keep hearing?

Cheers!

bad karma is an experiance for one's own action brought upon himself.where is god in the picture,?who is nothing but a witness to our free will.compassion from god comes within,not any agency from outside.since you are from sv(ex),you disclose the way you perceive god.for advaithis it's aham brahmasmi.its sad,that we lost one of us to them temperorily,i still have hope,that you will be a sv soon like before,as i trust you.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

The discussion is now focussed on Astrology.

I would like to make a couple of points on Horoscope Matching.

1. A member had given three links to kamakoti.org. But these are articles about Astrology and not about Horoscope matching.

2. None of the old texts about astrology mention Horoscope matching. You do not find it in Brhat Jataka by Varahmihira, Saravali or any other old texts on Astrology.

To claim that Horoscope matching is laid down in the Vedas is stretching thing too too far.

3. Horoscope matching has become big business.

But today we asume that it is part of the Vedas, part of Hinduism, Brahminism. Anyone who says anything against it is DK and a rationalist.

This is the result of continuous propaganda by astrologers in the print media, and TV. It is money spinning business and they spend money.

Horoscope Matching is NOT Astrology. It is one of the applications of Astrology, developed, may be during the last 150 years. It is not mentioned in any of the old Sanskrit texts.

Horoscope matching has nothing to do with Vedas or Vaidic practices.

 

[Raghy]

Respectable members,

Astronomy is science. We still investigate the universe and keep learning about our universe in an objective way, that is with evidence.

Astrology is not evidence based. It is not a science. We do not have any stastical data to study the trends in astrology. The astrological predictions are so general, it can fit anyone or no one depending upon the predictions.

As per horoscope matchings, it is not objective at all. any marriage has equal cances of success or failure. Compatability through horoscope matching is only delusional.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

I wish Universities offering courses on astrology build some research data based on past predictions. Match making also can be part of it.

Few decades back there was some article that plants grow better listening to music. The study was done at Annamalai University. However no further information is available on the subject.

It is not just to prove or disprove anything but a statistical database and findings will help improve further research on the subject and also fine tuning of the predictions.

We have inherited astrology from ancient times and I am sure our forefathers are not just fools to create `astrology' as a subject. However we should not live just on the past glory alone and try to correlate statistical data with predictions so that the subject develops further.

Since astrology has been made a subject of study in the universities, it is the responsibility of the universities offering the course to do more research on the subject and bring out findings regularly.

All the best

 

[vikrama]

http://bharathiadi.blogspot.com/search/label/சோதிடம்

 

[Raghy]

http://bharathiadi.blogspot.com/search/label/சோதிடம்

Sri.Vikrama,

Thanks for the link. The article is very comprehensive.

இன்று சோதிடம் பிழைப்புக்கான ஒரு தொழிலாக இருக்கிறதே அன்றி அதில் உண்மையான ஆராய்ச்சி நடப்பதாகத் தெரியவில்லை. பல்கலைக் கழகங்களில் சோதிடத்தில் முனைவர் பட்டம் வாங்குபவர்கள் கூட அறிவியல் விதிகள் போன்று அனைவரும் ஒப்புக் கொள்ளக் கூடிய எந்த ஒரு உண்மையையும் கண்டுபிடித்ததாகத் தெரியவில்லை.

வளரும் நிலையில் உள்ள இந்த சோதிட விஞ்ஞானத்தில் இது வரை ஆராய்ச்சியாளர்கள் அறிவில் தோன்றிய கற்பிதக் கொள்கைகளை முடிந்த முடிவாக ஏற்று அதை நம்பி வாழ்க்கையை நடத்துவது பொருத்தமாகத் தெரியவில்ல

Good one!

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

ss

The discussion is now focussed on Astrology.

I would like to make a couple of points on Horoscope Matching.

1. A member had given three links to kamakoti.org. But these are articles about Astrology and not about Horoscope matching.

horoscope matching is nothing but a tool to harness probable cause,for future relationships to build.ultimately,ones common sense is the guide.

2. None of the old texts about astrology mention Horoscope matching. You do not find it in Brhat Jataka by Varahmihira, Saravali or any other old texts on Astrology.

varahmihira quotes extensively about relationships.please refer chapter 7 for it.the slokas are explicit.similiarly saravali too quotes,n fact a german scholar has developed a software,based on saravali teachings,which can be downloaded freely from net.

brihat parashara hora shastra has extensively covered about navamsham,especially from spousal benefits and demerits.frankly,your totally ill informed ,sir.

To claim that Horoscope matching is laid down in the Vedas is stretching thing too too far.

we have our gurus to teach us.and we believe our gurus - period.

3. Horoscope matching has become big business.

yes,its a biz.a proffession.people make a living out of it,is it illegal to do biz with shastras?

But today we asume that it is part of the Vedas, part of Hinduism, Brahminism. Anyone who says anything against it is DK and a rationalist.

dk or kkk,does it really matter?jyotisham is a vedangam - period.blind faith,is what is irking many people here.ok,please wear full vision faith and believe.

This is the result of continuous propaganda by astrologers in the print media, and TV. It is money spinning business and they spend money.

what a hogwash?tv came to chennai,somewhere in mid 70's and prolly a decade before in delhi.jyotisham has been going on in life of every household in india,much before even newspaper was invented.dunno,how you write fiction like this?

Horoscope Matching is NOT Astrology. It is one of the applications of Astrology, developed, may be during the last 150 years. It is not mentioned in any of the old Sanskrit texts.

Horoscope matching has nothing to do with Vedas or Vaidic practices.

horoscope matching,is a relationship building technique.one of the many tools available to humanity.i dont think hindus are preaching to the world,that jyotisham matching techniques are the ONLY tool avalable on earth,for marriages to be fixed,and future generations to flourish!!!

Sanskrit is not the only language which promoted jyotisham,classical tamizh,telegu,kannada,malayalam,oriya,bengali........etc are evidenceenuff,for our way of life.

if people are making a living out of it,its good proffession.and any proffessional can survive,only if he delivers the goods,otherwise a natural death of the biz will take place.on the contrary,indians are smacking yet another notch of blending spirituality with modern scientific techniques,bravo!!

 

[Nara]

...if i sounded offensive,...

NN, I did not see any offense in your statement at all. My point was not that, it is only that sweeping declarative statements like the one I cited without any supporting evidence or argument shuts down further discussion.

...vidwans like sir b v raman,have brought about so many meanigful changes,so i am perplexed by your statement.

What exactly is perplexing? Vidwans and BV Raman included, follow astrology as laid down a long time ago. No revision is allowed. Given this, it cannot be considered science because science by definition is a process of continuous experimentation, observation, verification, and revision if necessary.

Another thing science is not is the veneration of forefathers to the extent of taking their knowledge as final. RVR, I am not saying our forefathers were fools, that is a straw man. What they believed and what they followed were based on their knowledge and experience. Things have changed since then. Our lives are so different from theirs. Our forefathers were not fools is not a sufficient reason to simply accept all their beliefs and practices. I would like to think our forefathers were quite brilliant and they would be astonished to see that we still follow this thing called astrology in spite of the vast advances in astronomical knowledge.

...just becoz its complex,we cannot discard jyotisham as some mumbo jumbo.our weekdays are representation of 7 grahas only,even today.

NN, the seven days of the week is of western origin and was adopted by the Indians. The traditional/vedic custom follows thithi, not week days.

The reason for discarding the predictive/horoscope parts of Jyotisha shashtram is not because it is complex, but because it is irrational. Just think about it NN, the celestial position of grahams/planets like moon and sun (!) at the instant of one's birth is supposed to tell how they will affect you for the rest of your life. You want to believe this just because it is written.

i don't think sv's are dumb to do that.we need to find evidence for your scientific analysis that you quote.please provide it.

I don't think they are dumb either, but like so many they also follow tradition. Acharyas words are final, any independent thinking that tends to contradict acharyas is apacharam of the worst kind. These are some of the reasons why there is this ஆட்டு மந்தை kind of follow the tradition urge. Scientific evidence is all around us. Science is what everyone turns to, without hesitation, for all sorts of comforts, conveniences, and solutions to problems, and yet, as they enjoy these benefits, without a trace of irony, criticize science.

Cheers!

 

[Iyest]

We have inherited astrology from ancient times and I am sure our forefathers are not just fools to create `astrology' as a subject. However we should not live just on the past glory alone and try to correlate statistical data with predictions so that the subject develops further.

Since astrology has been made a subject of study in the universities, it is the responsibility of the universities offering the course to do more research on the subject and bring out findings regularly.

All the best

RVR, we should understand that astronomy and astrology were very well studied and documented in India. The university in Nalanda had a lot of material on these subjects. Unfortunately most of this material has been lost forever. Today we are "told" in astronomy textbooks all across India that Kepler and Galileo are the pioneers of astronomy! This is so shameful because there were not just a few but probably a few thousand people before Kepler who knew about planetary orbits, time taken by each planet for revolution around the sun, nodal points (Rahu and Ketu) etc. Aryabhata had many students and their calculations were well documented. There was knowledge about eclipses, mars being a red planet etc long before the invention of the telescope or the landing of a rover.

Developing the field further is going to be almost impossible. Till today we do not know how the early sages were able to determine all this information without external aids (like telescope). Therefore the methodology they used is unknown. Today astronomy is almost entirely dependent on external aids (telescopes, computer simulation etc) and this has been accepted as the only true scientific methodology. This being the case even in India, there seems to be no chance of ever finding out the ancient approach let alone develop it further. All we know is that astronomy, astrology, philosophy and psychology etc were all likely studied as an integrated subject. Since the 'scientists' instantly pooh pooh any talk of integrating astrology with anything else, this is a dead end. A few individual astrologers (like B.V Raman) have tried the modern approach and collected statistical data but the number of horoscopes collected have been relatively small.

 

[nachi naga]

nara,

NN, I did not see any offense in your statement at all. My point was not that, it is only that sweeping declarative statements like the one I cited without any supporting evidence or argument shuts down further discussion.

ok,gotcha.

What exactly is perplexing? Vidwans and BV Raman included, follow astrology as laid down a long time ago. No revision is allowed. Given this, it cannot be considered science because science by definition is a process of continuous experimentation, observation, verification, and revision if necessary.

there is a systems approach to astrology,very nearly perfected by dr.choudary new delhi.so,jyotisham has experimentation,observation,verifiation and revision if neccessary.

Another thing science is not is the veneration of forefathers to the extent of taking their knowledge as final. RVR, I am not saying our forefathers were fools, that is a straw man. What they believed and what they followed were based on their knowledge and experience. Things have changed since then. Our lives are so different from theirs. Our forefathers were not fools is not a sufficient reason to simply accept all their beliefs and practices. I would like to think our forefathers were quite brilliant and they would be astonished to see that we still follow this thing called astrology in spite of the vast advances in astronomical knowledge.

today,the presentation is modified,thats all.its still the old wine in a new bottle.

NN, the seven days of the week is of western origin and was adopted by the Indians. The traditional/vedic custom follows thithi, not week days.

this needs scrutiny.as,the navagrahs,in a temple archirecture,clearly demonstrates,as sun,in center,of our solar system ,while the west thot earth was flat.old testament is proof enuff,as to who lead the way,for propagation of knowlege truthfully for eons.now,that having learnt the truth,juxtaposing it as their own revelation,is nothing but copy and paste by west.please give due,where it deserves.

The reason for discarding the predictive/horoscope parts of Jyotisha shashtram is not because it is complex, but because it is irrational. Just think about it NN, the celestial position of grahams/planets like moon and sun (!) at the instant of one's birth is supposed to tell how they will affect you for the rest of your life. You want to believe this just because it is written.

it's just a way.its not the only way.i believe becoz,rig veda clearly states,that there is no sun rise or sun set,why?think,you will figure it out.

I don't think they are dumb either, but like so many they also follow tradition. Acharyas words are final, any independent thinking that tends to contradict acharyas is apacharam of the worst kind. These are some of the reasons why there is this ஆட்டு மந்தை kind of follow the tradition urge. Scientific evidence is all around us. Science is what everyone turns to, without hesitation, for all sorts of comforts, conveniences, and solutions to problems, and yet, as they enjoy these benefits, without a trace of irony, criticize science.

Cheers!

see nara sir,today's world of invention and discoveries,are in a league onto themseves.even today,people love to have lasting relationships,via marriage,rather than just fornicating,and have progenies.a system is in place already for us.we follow it.there is no compunction,that every one in this world have to follow us.we feel comfortable,and find peace and harmony,by adhering to a system,as suggested by elders and our foreparents.chinese astrlogy adopts yet another way,and even today china follows its traditional new year celeberations in feb,why?why harp on us indians ways of life?find faults and criticise us alone.just becoz we are saathvic in nature,that does not mean,we are punching bags to get punched by all and sundry,sir.:noidea:

science with spirituality,is the way to go,as they both are,two sides of one coin.

 

[Nara]

...ok,gotcha.

.so,jyotisham has experimentation,observation,verifiation and revision if neccessary.

NN, you are doing it again, don't you think you need to provide some more details to back this up? Give me one or two examples of changes to the theories of astrology that were made. Give one or two examples of this "experimentation,observation,verification and revision if necessary" that you are claiming for Jyotisham.

...it's just a way.its not the only way.i believe becoz,rig veda clearly states,that there is no sun rise or sun set,why?think,you will figure it out.

Please tell me what I need to think about. While you are it, could you please cite this vedic verse? Perhaps we can take a look at what else the Vedas say, about the rituals and what those rituals are supposed to yield, etc.

... another way,and even today china follows its traditional new year celeberations in feb,why?why harp on us indians ways of life?find faults and criticise us alone.just becoz we are saathvic in nature,that does not mean,we are punching bags to get punched by all and sundry,sir.

NN, I don't think there is any reason for this talk of victimhood. Nobody is criticizing celebrating traditional New Year, be it Jan 15th or April 15th. In fact it is the god-fearing who throng the temples on Jan 1st, and let April 15th pass by without so much as a peep.

Further, belief in astrology and other superstitions is not just an Indian phenomenon only. Astrology is big business even in the U.S. Not many newspapers come out without daily horoscope section.

I hope you don't think of my criticisms as punches -- I am not seeing you and your coreligionists as punching bags, not at all. My intent is for all of us to introspect a little, be a little self-critical, let us not follow tradition just because it is there, but examine and take the good and jettison what is just dead weight. In this respect I happen to think astrology is dead weight.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

nara

NN, you are doing it again, don't you think you need to provide some more details to back this up? Give me one or two examples of changes to the theories of astrology that were made. Give one or two examples of this "experimentation,observation,verification and revision if necessary" that you are claiming for Jyotisham.

ok.one is India based and the other is USA based.

"Astrology", "Learn Astrology", Free Online Vedic Astrology Lessons and Self Learning Astrology books from "Indian Vedic Astrologer, V K Choudhry - Propounder of Systems' Approach for Learning Horoscopes," "Astrology, Astrology Remedies, Astrology ch

the above is called systems approACh,designed by choudari.

Jyotish Writings of P.V.R. Narasimha Rao

the above is designed by pvr nr,a software engineering professional,who is doing yeoman service freely for furthering jyotisham shastram,globaly.jaganath hora software can be downlaoded freely.examples are there in both websites,for those interested to know,how it works.

Please tell me what I need to think about. While you are it, could you please cite this vedic verse? Perhaps we can take a look at what else the Vedas say, about the rituals and what those rituals are supposed to yield, etc.

The following, as to the motion of the sun, bears repetition in this connection. It is from the same ancient Brahmana, iii. 4.4 :—
" The sun neither ever sets nor rises. When people think he sets he only turns himself round, after reaching the end of the day, and makes day above and night below. Then when people think he rises in the morning, he only turns himself after reaching the end of the night, and makes day below and night above. In truth he never sets. The man who knows this, that the sun never sets, enjoys union and sameness of nature with him, and abides in the same sphere."

The Brahmanas of the Vedas - Google Books

one can read a brief write up in above link.vedas are being translated to english,so that interested people can know more about our way of life,culture,rituals,traditions etc.

NN, I don't think there is any reason for this talk of victimhood. Nobody is criticizing celebrating traditional New Year, be it Jan 15th or April 15th. In fact it is the god-fearing who throng the temples on Jan 1st, and let April 15th pass by without so much as a peep.

Further, belief in astrology and other superstitions is not just an Indian phenomenon only. Astrology is big business even in the U.S. Not many newspapers come out without daily horoscope section.

I hope you don't think of my criticisms as punches -- I am not seeing you and your coreligionists as punching bags, not at all. My intent is for all of us to introspect a little, be a little self-critical, let us not follow tradition just because it is there, but examine and take the good and jettison what is just dead weight. In this respect I happen to think astrology is dead weight.

Cheers!

on self-introspection and self-critical analysis,i found that,our ancient sciences explained to masses,in a particular format,which appealed to them then.Now,the masses prefer presentation,in a different format,therefore,the science based explanations springs forth.tradition is a way,if people follow it,a moksham is attained is a belief or faith for us.if people do not believe,they are more than welcome to be agnostic or atheistic like charvakan or nir ishwara vadam tatvas aka buddhist.shad-darshanas emphasise vedas as pradanam broadly as astikas.there are nastikas too,who do not believe vedas.so,for us its not a new position amongst philosophers.

horoscope matching using jyotisham techniques,is a tool,for a safe and harmonious life.if for some reason,the marriage is unhappy,remedial measures are adviced.this way,our tradition continues.for those who are not traditionalists,they have recourse to do whatever they want.soon,if west follows our traditional methods of compatible harmony amongst sexes,immdly our people will say,oh we always knew that.....