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The Fairest Flower

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Sometimes evidence comes from within and not from without.

Dear friend, this is true, in the sense of how we view the world. With the available information I view the world and see there is no need for religion. On the other hand, a person like yourself sees the world and sees immense value in religion.

However, when it comes to irrefutable facts, such as what mind is, or how brain works, we have no choice but to (i) establish, through hard evidence what is true, and, what is false, or (ii) say we do not have enough evidence to conclude one way or the other. Under case (ii) it is not reasonable to make any further claims such as athma, etc.

IMHO, religion makes sweeping claims by fiat. Science is much more humble than that. Absence of evidence is readily admitted and taken as a challenge, not as blasphemy.

I really liked your Questions but unfortunately I don't have all the answers.
That, I think, is because you are a scientific minded person, attracted to what is generally called spirituality. I salute you for that.

Cheers!
 
Smt. Renuka,
I just happened to read an article in the Sunday Chronicle of the Deccan Chronicle titled "heart opens gateway to divinity". Please read the article if you find time and share your views. Venkat
 
Smt. Renuka,
I just happened to read an article in the Sunday Chronicle of the Deccan Chronicle titled "heart opens gateway to divinity". Please read the article if you find time and share your views. Venkat[/QU

This is the weblink to the article.

Heart opens gateway to divinity | Deccan Chronicle


All the best

Sri RVR,

Thanks for the link.

Commenting on the article ‘Heart opens gateway to divinity’ by
Sri. Mani Shankar. At Heart opens gateway to divinity | Deccan Chronicle
“Pumping blood is just one of the many tasks of the heart. It’s other job is to be the ruler of all emotional responses. This is now an established scientific fact. The heart has a fully functional ‘heart-brain’ — which decides when to trigger an emotion. This is usually done without informing or taking ‘permission’ of the brain. The heart not only triggers hormones from glands all over the body, it also generates many of them. For example dopamine, the principal hormone which triggers happiness and delight, is heart generated. So is Oxytocin, also known as the ‘love’ hormone.”



Study shows that endocrine system is responsible for the manufacture and distribution of harmones in the human body.
Here - http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec13/ch161/ch161c.html
http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec13/ch162/ch162a.html

Dopamine - Dopamine is produced in several areas of the brain, including the substantia nigra and the ventral tegmental area.[1] Dopamine is also a neurohormone released by the hypothalamus. Its main function as a hormone is to inhibit the release of prolactin from the anterior lobe of the pituitary.
Here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine

Oxytocin - Oxytocin is made in magnocellular neurosecretory cells of the supraoptic and paraventricular nuclei of the hypothalamus and is stored in Herring bodies at the axon terminals in the posterior pituitary. It is then released into the blood from the posterior lobe (neurohypophysis) of the pituitary gland.
Here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin

Sri. Mani Shankar expressed his opinions here. I am not so sure whether he sought cross references for bolstering his opinions.
 
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Dear Venkat,
Please read all the links Raghy has given.

The Heart is just a mechanical pump which can even function outside the body if the similar condusive environment is simulated.

The heart does not produce Dopamine and Oxytocin as the article says.

Both Dopamine and Oxytocin are Hyphothalamic Hormones.

That is they are produced by the Hypothalamus in the brain.


The heart as I know so far has a Sino Atrial Node which generates "instruction" for the heart to beat.
Some may call it in laymans term "The Brain of the Heart" but medically it is the natural pacemaker of the heart.


During palpitations/Tachycardia that is heart beat exceeding 100beats per min
Atrial NatriUretic Factor is released which inturn causes diuresis(increased urinary output in terms of volume of urine produced)
But Dopamine and Oxytocin are not at all produced by the heart.

Renuka
 
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I thot Arthur was taking everyone on a merry-go-round ride - by posting cryptic unclear messages and not conveying clearly whatever he wants to tell.

But thankgod this discussion has taken a very nice turn..

Renuka,

your posts got me most interested.

You have mentioned that brain does not store memory. I came across articles on pubmed and nlm on deep brain stimulations.

One article was reg electrode implantation in alzhemier sufferes. There is a newspaper article on it:
Scientists discover way to reverse loss of memory - Science, News - The Independent

There are clues abt brain structures that are involved in memory. It is seen that certain kinds of head injuries cause memory loss. If the brain does not store memory, that should not happen, isn't it....

Also, my guru said that the mid-brain is the seat of all memory. Based on that, i have been interested in reading up reports on memory linked to the midbrain. Some on how the mid-brain is linked to episodic memory are very interesting. Perhaps this article might interest you: http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/26/5/1407

Taking your example, well its clear that the software (mind) cannot exist if the hardware (brain) does not exist.

Though its clear that the mind and the brain are 2 different entities, i suppose, the mind being the product of the brain is not really de-linked from it. Meaning, the brain structures could store memory (like RAM chips in different parts perhaps)..

Am curious abt this from the medical pov. What do you think?

Also, you mentioned that even under hypnotism intrautrine memory cannot be stimulated - that is so true. I have often wondered about it, why is it so.

Regards.
 
Sow. Sri. Happy Hindu,

Thank you bringing up the subject about 'memory storage in brain'. I was not very convinced with Sow.Sri. Renuka's explanations. Now it seems I maylearn more on the subject. Thank you.
 
Sow. Sri. Renuka,

Please pardon me for barging in for making a comment about harmones. I was reading the article; as I was reading, I was preparing the reply. I am sorry, you would have replied more professionally.
 
renu,

re your reference to the heart as a mechanical pump, trotted my thoughts back to mid sixties, i think.

there was a movie, called the fantastic voyage, in which i vaguely remember, in order to save a person, a doctor and his crew are miniaturized, and slipped into the bloodstream.

nowadays, with nano technology coming to be a reality, i wonder, if in the near future, we can have heart pumps, once inserted, can keep on working indefinitely, thus removing one cause of death ie heart failure.

i feel, that with the resolution, one by one, of that last great frontier, ever close to us, but still undecipherable, ie the human itself, will eventually lead to permanence of life on this planet, for those who have already been born at such times.

we are slowly but surely increasing our lifespan. so what i imagine, may not so far fetched after all :)

thank you.
 
Happy Hindu said `I thot Arthur was taking everyone on a merry-go-round ride - by posting cryptic unclear messages and not conveying clearly whatever he wants to tell.

But thankgod this discussion has taken a very nice turn.'

We have to thank Sri Kunjuppu ji for bringing Idli/Vadai to this thread and I was able to pick up Masal Vadai from his clue and take it this heights.

It reminds me of a old cartoon serial Thuppariyum Sambu by Devan in Ananda Vikatan. Sambu had special skills in unfolding investigations in a simple way. Our kunjuppu ji probably has inherited the legacy. ( Kujuppu ji -I am just joking - Please don't demand apology from me)

All the best
 
It reminds me of a old cartoon serial Thuppariyum Sambu by Devan in Ananda Vikatan. Sambu had special skills in unfolding investigations in a simple way. Our kunjuppu ji probably has inherited the legacy. ( Kujuppu ji -I am just joking - Please don't demand apology from me)

All the best

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaa

good one venkat :) :)

ok, i too loved thuppariym sambu. it came out in a book form, which i found rather dull. is there a pictorial version from ananda vikatan, still in print?

i can close my eyes, and remember sambu, vembu, singapore singaram and inspector gopalan.

amazingly, i did not know this was serialized.

http://www.rajshritamil.com/Video/Thuppariyum-Sambu-Ep-4


by the way, in the late 1950s, ananda viktan, had another youth oriented serial called 'vaathiyar vedapuri'. this is another book i would love to read again.
 
Sri Kunjuppu,

Ya it came as a TV seriel. But nothing to beat the cartoon seriel . Gopulu did the cartoon work and made it really wonderful. There are no such comedy writers and cartoonists now days.

I shall try to procure a cartoon book if available.

All the best
 
I am sorry my friend, you have once again given a whole bunch of assertions.
eh? Sure I am. But these are not born out of my fertile imagination... As I said before, if you do not accept Vedhas as the pramanam, we have no common grounds to discuss.

The functioning of the brain is very well understood. Mind, as Renuka points out from a medical POV, is just a function of the brain, it is just what it does. The chemical states of the brain creates some sensations that feels like pain, pleasure, etc. These are not assertions. After all, with the consumption of drugs, a purely physical process, the mood can be altered.
Sure, a dog, a rat and a kangaroo, all possess a brain... but it does not have the discriminating intelligence - to have an aim, and to seek it diligently. Animals show only instinctive behavious, unlike humans. You can go on talking about how illusory these concepts are, but the fact is, you do not want to accept it.

Of course the knowledge is not complete. There are gaps. These gaps are being filled all the time through painstaking research. Yet, religion makes people simply insert meta physical entities into these gaps.
Perhaps, science may end up proving what religion has been saying all along!

You say there is athma and we are not observing it because of limitation on instrumentality. Further, you also state exactly what happens and why it happens viz. karma, guna, et al. without a shred of evidence but reigious dogma. If this is deemed logical, what prevents one from claiming that there is an invisible monkey hovering over our heads, that is the athma, and we are not seeing it because of limitations of instruments.
Yes, one can even imagine aliens, but religion does not try to convey any abstract nonsense. It explains the creation of the universe, the 'why' of things, and the solution to it. Science does not have an answer to it - simply because it refuses to believe in what cannot be proved empirically. That, my friend, is the ever present difference between philosophy and science.

In the absence of data, the only reasonable thing we can say is we don't know. Going beyond that is pure dogma.
But a dogma which explains accurately, among other things, the purpose of life in a logical and coherent manner.

p.s. The shareera/sahreeri concept you cite is a metephor used by Bhagavat Ramanuja in Sri Bhashyam to describe the inseparableness between the duality of chetana and Iswara, and the duality achetana and iswara.
Yes, am aware of that; just as the whiteness from a dhothi cannot be separated, the athma cannot be separated from the gross form during the lifetime.

........... For this to be taken seriously one has to buy into the inerrant validity of the Vedas, which even you won't accept if you were born in a different culture.
This is mere speculation, but you have correctly reasoned out as below:
But of course you will say your karma gave you this birth and the true knowledge

-- a circular argument if there ever was one!!!
So is your so-called scientific view, which does not accept the meta physical until proved. We are all in the same boat - each trying to chart the waters in our own way!

Regards,
 
Greetings, everyone.

I will share a personal experience with you all that I had over the past week. I hope that it doesn't appear to be so cryptic.

Friends, I have come to realize that there is a "huge" difference between a devil's hatred and an anti-Christ's hatred. Astronomically speaking, one is planetary and the other a black hole.

The best way this can be understood is to study the Ramayana. The Ramayana is very spiritual in an astrological sense. Remember that only Rama could kill Ravanna. Ravanna represented much more than a devil. He represented the anti-Christ. He was pure evil.

I realized this by attempting to share my love and friendship with one of his wives. How innocent and gentle she appeared to be. So sweet. However, as it turned out she was candy that was really deadly poison. The experience I had throughout this attempted courtship was the most intensely painful experience I ever had. I felt like I was dying the whole time. At first I thought that maybe I was being selfish, and my pain was caused by it, but then I realized that my love and friendship was being absolutely unreciprocated, "unreflected". Even a devil will reciprocate one's love in some form or other, because as a planet it does reflect light.

As a householder, I seek pure love in a woman, but in this case had to experience pure evil. Does this make me evil as well or is this a prelude to something beautiful? I remain hopeful. I remain in love. The unbearable pain that I felt from this experience is slowly fading. As I see it, without this experience one cannot be truly grateful for the love one receives when it does come. How I now pity that soul that swallowed my love in the pit of emptiness. Yes, one can actually discern the spiritual disposition of another soul via direct experience.

Your Loving Friend,
Arthur
 
Shri Nara,


  • If the body were to function by a mere combination of the elements, then science should have revived the dead. Or more, it should be empirically possible to create new humans by combiniations. Why is it not possible? Why is it that mere repair of the flesh cannot revive life?

  • What hypothesis does science have to offer for the existence of this world, and the beings in it? Cause and Effect.
The Vedhas are not just an old man's ramble; rather, they address the above two fundamental questions very clearly.

Regards,
 
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I will share a personal experience with you all that I had over the past week. I hope that it doesn't appear to be so cryptic.
More talk, I presume...

Friends, I have come to realize that there is a "huge" difference between a devil's hatred and an anti-Christ's hatred. Astronomically speaking, one is planetary and the other a black hole.
Another of your categorical revelations?

Ramayana is very spiritual in an astrological sense.
Could you please elaborate this?

Ravanna represented much more than a devil. He represented the anti-Christ. He was pure evil.
Ravana had great qualities, was a great warrior and admired the arts, yet, he was not a Dharmathma. He had no control over his 'kamam'.

I realized this by attempting to share my love and friendship with one of his wives.
Whose wife? One of Ravana's...???

.......................................................................................

You are trying to convey something in a way that cannot be more ambiguous... Makes one wonder whether the words were written in delirium...

Regards,
 
Alright my friend, I think we have covered all that could be covered. Let me leave you with just the following.

  • As regards animals, have you seen Jane Goodall's documentaries. Those who have pets also can vouch for the emotions animals show. All evidences point to the human brain as nothing fundamentally different from animal brains, except it is much more powerful.
  • If science does not know how to bring back the dead, then it is in the same boat as believers in Vedic explanation of how things work? This is not logoical at all.
  • Vedas explain creation in terms of mahat, ahankaram, thanmathrai, etc. They talk about 24, 25, and 26 thathvas. Nobody even knows what many of these are, and, the logic seems to be, since science can't bring dead people back, this vedic theory of creation is in the same boat as science. Seems too illogical for me.
  • Science tries to understand as much as possible about the physical world around us. It does have a coherent explanation of what is already understood. I don't understand what you mean by hypothesis for the existence of the world. Science does not make definitive claims on matters not well understood.
Thanks and best regards...
 
Dear Renuka,

I have just read your post. Thank you very much for your wonderful comments. And your choice of reading is highly recommended. We keep the same company, my friend.

Also, do you happen to know that Swamiji (Swami Vivekananda) has taken birth again and is living, the last I heard, in Sri Lanka? Baba has said so.

Arthur
 
Dear Sapthajihva and Similar Friends,

My criticizing friends, do you honestly think that there is anything positive in the words that you speak against me? Do you think that by continuously scoffing at my words that you will dimish their glory? Just because you cannot understand them does not mean that they are ambiguous, false, or otherwise.

This is suppose to be an "intelligent" forum filled with holy brahmins, but as I see it it is filled with much ignorance.

Correct yourselves, my friends, if you wish to be seen as gentleman. Thus far, all your words have been barbaric, primitive, and uncivilized.

I am not your enemy.

Arthur
 
Dear Sapthajihva and Similar Friends,

My criticizing friends, do you honestly think that there is anything positive in the words that you speak against me? Do you think that by continuously scoffing at my words that you will dimish their glory? Just because you cannot understand them does not mean that they are ambiguous, false, or otherwise.

This is suppose to be an "intelligent" forum filled with holy brahmins, but as I see it it is filled with much ignorance.

Correct yourselves, my friends, if you wish to be seen as gentleman. Thus far, all your words have been barbaric, primitive, and uncivilized.

I am not your enemy.

Arthur

hi arthur,

it is my privilege to post this note to you. hope you don't mind.

maybe or maybenot that i come under your definition of 'Dear Sapthajihva and Similar Friends'. not sure about that, since saptha and me are most often at different ends of the spectrum re philosophical and social stands (no insult meant to saptha, i respect him.).

but, i feel an emotion in all your posts, and hence, inspite of myself, i am forced to pen this note. i hope you don't mind.

i wish to let you know that your words are enigmatic. the beauty of jesus, was that he spoke the language of the common man ie aramaic and not latin, the lingo of the ruling roman class. so did buddha, who opted for prakrit.

to me, your posts, resonate more of an higher english that i cannot decipher. they are too enigmatic, and i simply do not understand.

maybe other members do not understand them either. hence their reaction which you term as 'scoff'

re 'this formum of intelligent holy brahmins', i beg to differ. broadly speaking, we are neither intelligent, nor holy and our brahminism (whatever that means in your jargon) can be questioned by every streetwalker you know.

however, this part, is my sole opinion, as i am quite sure, many here fit to a 'T' your definition of holy and brahminism, though, maybe not together. this is something, i hope, will ravel, as this thread progresses through its own destined path.

re the words of members being, 'barbaric, primitive and uncivilized;, don't you think it is a little too extreme to describe 'ignorance, custom bound and perchance some impotence thrown in there' ?

i can assure you those members i know, are neither barbaric or primitive, though i could, in certain instances, concede to the 'uncivilized' part. some of us members, including myself on occassions can be termed as காட்டான்.

if you ever wish to challenge this, prior to doing so, there are some esteemed members, one of whom has specifically requested me not to utter his name in public here. but i could definitely p.m. you, if you so desire.

you, arthur, are an enigmatic delight to this forum. for in not knowing what you say, we revel in our cumulative imagination, and make a spectacle of fools before the wisdom of thyself.

i was not kidding in another post, when on a cold, rainy day, an upper is a glass of wine and some fresh hot onion/cashew pakodas. can i liken you to that? if you don't mind. to me, this is one of the ultimate complements.

may i, sincerely, on behalf of the forum, and myself (not sapthajiva, though as he can speak for himself), bow my head in shame as the precursor to the dulling of the mind on its route to senility, or somewhere its neighbourhood? you have awakened in me, the desire again, to search for the truth. i will do so rigorously from now on.

bless you sir for your frankness. there used to be an newroom adage, prior to the rightwing racists buying up all the major newspapers in the west - 'published and be damned'. in your case, i would retort, 'publish or be damned'.

may peace be with you. :)
 
Greetings, my friends.

These past few days have been a very trying time for me. I will share with you a converstion that I had with the God of my soul.

I have been asking God how a dead soul suffers? How can a dead soul suffer if it feels nothing? And the Lord said to me, Be grateful for the pain that you are now experiencing because of the deep love you shared with a dead soul that never returned any love back to you. Don't you see, my child, this person didn't even have that. Such people live in complete oblivion of love. Why do you think that you feel so much love and have so much pity for this person? This person has lost everything, and you, my son, have found everything. You have found Me. No matter how much warmth and gentleness you gave this person, you received absolutely nothing good in return. Only scorn did you receive in the end. How do you think Jesus felt? His pain was also excruciating? You must feel the "agony" of unselfish giving to truly appreciate the "ecstasy" of receiving. As they say, no pain, no gain. One must truly suffer for the good of the world in order to attain genuine bliss, ecstasy. Your joy will be comensurate to your pain. So bleed for the world from the depths of your heart.

Arthur
 
Dear Kunjuppu,

I have just read your post. I am tremendously humbled by your words. You spoke with great sincerity and humility. This is definitely a sign of someone who is truly intelligent. I am very grateful to you. Thank you so kindly.

I know that some of my words may appear harsh, but please understand that I speak them with the greatest love. You are all my family no matter how you desire to treat me.

Also, I am not here to challange anyone, but merely to speak the truth how I realize it. My understanding is very simple. I am no scholar. My understanding is also very subtle and can be difficult to grasp.

I am here if you need anything.

Your Friend,
Arthur
 
....Why do you think that you feel so much love and have so much pity for this person?

...... How do you think Jesus felt? His pain was also excruciating? You must feel the "agony" of unselfish giving to truly appreciate the "ecstasy" of receiving

....... Your joy will be comensurate to your pain. So bleed for the world from the depths of your heart.


I really wonder who in their right mind will find this sadomasochistic turdblossom interesting. He probably needs some serious help lest someone gets hurt.
 
Dear Happy Hindu,
before I proceed I have to put a disclaimer.
No Neurologist will agree with what i have mentioned so far.
My answers have not been proved scientifically.

I still believe that the brain does not store memory.
Memory is stored in the Chitta portion of the Antahkarana.
Antahkarana as I had explained in the earlier post is made up of
Manas
Buddhi
Chitta
Ahamkara

Chitta is the microchip which stores all data and input from all our previous lifes be it Human or non Human.

The Consciousness(Chaitanya) is more developed in Humans.

Hence the full function of all the components of the Antahkarana are in play.
We have "Mana" hence called "Manava".

The Brain is just a gross structure with all the necessary structures needed to process the function of the Antahkarana.
During brain or head injury there is damage to the structural components of the brain.
There might be transient or permenant loss of function at a cellular level which might impede the memory function of the Chitta to transmit.
The memory is still in the Chitta but cannot be transmitted due to faulty/injured apparatus(the injured brain)
Function can be regained when cellular healing takes place or compensated by other areas of the brain.
As the saying goes when one door is shut God opens a window for us.

a simple example:
Just imagine the Chitta is the petrol of a car full tank to say.
The brain is the engine of the car.
Just say the engine is faulty and car wont start.
The full tank petrol would never be able to run the car till the technical fault is rectified.
Therefore the memory in the Chitta is always there, its the brain which might not be able to relate if there is an injury or any neurotransmiter disorders.

I had brought up the point of intrauterine memeory and even past lifes memory under the thread memory before.
Why are we not able to elicit intrauterine memory or past lifes memory under hypnotism?
There seems to be a barrier which prevents this.
The brain has a mechanical Blood Brain barrier which filters and blocks out substances which might harm the cerebral environment.
I wonder if there is also a subtle memory barrier which prevents us from stored intrauterine or previous lifes memory.
medically my suspicion will be thrown out of the door because medically there is no past life and the brain is developing in utero hence not fully functional yet.

I always wondered if the answer lies in the anatomy of the subtle body.
Maybe either in its chakras or in the 3 granthas-- Brahma Grantha, Vishnu Grantha or Rudra Grantha.
For that I need an expert in the anatomy of the Subtle body and Its physiologhy to enlighten me.

Swami Yogananda in His book Bhagavad Gita God talks with Arjuna has given a detail and beautiful explanation of the human mind and the role of prana in its communication with the mind and body

Just to add, the human brain or any part of the body can be stimulated to make it more condusive to receiving and transmitting impulses.
Stimulation of skeletal muscle cells in the skeletal muscle eg of the biceps can hypertrophy when stimulated by lifting weights or even with the use of anabolic steroids.
Similarly learning a new language at an older age stimulates the brain cells with the new input and makes the brain cells more receptive and condusive for the Antahkarana to function.
There are a lot of functions of the Antahkarana lying dormant which might get"discovered" by a condusive celluar functioning of brain cells.
Hence Sattvic food, thoughts, Japa, Dhyana are recommended for us to tap the "unused" potential stored in our own Antahkarana.
 
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