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The god fallacy

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If you haven't witnessed Prof. Krauss in action.... Sit back and let you mind be blown. The man could make an atheist out of anyone with the slightest shred of doubt in their faith. He is a powerful presenter and a fantastic man of science. Enjoy.

'A Universe From Nothing' by Lawrence Krauss, AAI 2009 - YouTube

Dear BostonSankara, I have read many of Dawkins' books. I like the way he explains complex concepts that even a half dyslexic person like myself can understand.

I have been at the receiving end of much derision and high-handed mockery for the atheistic views I hold. So, when I see Dawkins giving it back to them I can't help but cheer and yearn for more. However, those who write on this subject from the non-belief, rational POV range from Late Hitchens -- he was even more critical and scornful of faith in God than Dawkins -- on the one end, and people like N.D. Tyson and Sagan on the other end, gentle and non-confrontational. I appreciate them all.

Cheers!
 
Dear brother Nara Ji,

Theists find what Dawkins says not very funny because he is saying those things about THEM. You find it hilarious because he is saying those things about THEM and not YOU. If you can not understand this basic human truth, then, what can I say? By the way, when some posts were made about Dawkins' debates, you got pretty offended about 'personal attacks' on him, almost in an emotional manner, did you not? Same feeling arises in theists when their Gods and Popes are attacked by this person. Is this hard to understand?

I admire Professor Carl Sagan. But he makes the same mistake many who think Science can answer the God question do. He confuses the understanding of HOW certain things operate in nature to being able to understand WHY such forces exist. Science can not explain the latter. It can only say that there is gravitational force, for example, never why there is such a force in the first place. As I have said, even if they do, it will eventually bump against the space time birth mystery of Big Bang.

So, intellectually no one can effectively argue that the physical laws can explain God. Subtly arguing first about God existing in different forms and extending that to physical forces is not intellectually honest. Because theists invoke belief, which is beyond any provable scientific fact; while atheists have to prove by science what God is through science. What Professor Sagan is really saying is that atheists can label all the physical forces 'defined' by science as 'God'. Which on it's face itself is a laughable proposition, because even for long understood forces like e/m, gravity, weak force etc., no one yet knows why these forces exist in nature. As Dawkins would say, this is a big cop out. Sorry.

Regards,
KRS

Theists of all stripes love to hate Richard Dawkins' because he wrote an entertaining book and called it "The God Delusion". In this book, they think he mocked their theistic belief system. What I saw as hilarious was seen as offensive. What I saw as a keen sense of humor, theists saw cheap shots taken at their expense.

The theists do have a point. When posing unanswerable questions Dawkins could have stopped short of rubbing it in. But, how would the theists treated him and his book if he had taken a milder approach? Well, this is not entirely a sepculative question. We do have another book that pretty much presents the same kind of arguments as that of The God Deluison, but with some important differences, (i) it has a very humble and academic title, "The God Hypothesis", (ii) the arguments are presented in a very gentle fashion, and (iii) the author is a much beloved and gentle Carl Sagan. But none of this makes any difference, the theists reject Carl Sagan with just as much antipathy as they do Richard Dawkins.

In Chapter 6 of this book Sagan takes on the usual arguments we have seen played out here in various threads and systematically dismantles them all. The entire chapter is a must read for even the confirmed theists whose faith is rock solid, as at the very least it will show where we atheists are coming from, and that may persuade them to treat us atheists with a little less hostility.

I will try to give as much original text from Chapter 6 as possible. Those interested in the entire chapter of about 14 pages, please PM me and I will try to get it to you in pdf format.


From The God Hypothesis, Chapter 6:

"If we are to discuss the idea of God and be restricted to rational arguments, then it is probably useful to know what we are talking about when we say “God.” This turns out not to be easy. .... Now, there is a constellation of properties that we generally think of when we in the West, or more generally in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, think of God. .... We think of some being who is omnipotent, omniscient, compassionate, who created the universe, is responsive to prayer, intervenes in human affairs, and so on.

But suppose there were definitive proof of some being who had some but not all of these properties. Suppose somehow it were demonstrated that there was a being who originated the universe but is indifferent to prayer. . . . Or, worse, a god who was oblivious to the existence of humans. That’s very much like Aristotle’s god. Would that be God or not? Suppose it were someone who was omnipotent but not omniscient, or vice versa. Suppose this god understood all the consequences of his actions but there were many things he was unable to do, so he was condemned to a universe in which his desired ends could not be accomplished. These alternative kinds of gods are hardly ever thought about or discussed. A priori there is no reason they should not be as likely as the more conventional sorts of gods.

... The range of hypotheses that are seriously covered under the rubric “God” is immense. A naive Western view of God is an outsize, light-skinned male with a long white beard, who sits on a very large throne in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow.

Contrast this with a quite different vision of God, one proposed by Baruch Spinoza and by Albert Einstein. And this second kind of god they called God in a very straightforward way. Einstein was constantly interpreting the world in terms of what God would or wouldn’t do. But by God they meant something not very different from the sum total of the physical laws of the universe; that is, gravitation plus quantum mechanics plus grand unified field theories plus a few other things equaled God. And by that all they meant was that here were a set of exquisitely powerful physical principles that seemed to explain a great deal that was otherwise inexplicable about the universe. Laws of nature, as I have said earlier, that apply not just locally, not just in Glasgow, but far beyond: Edinburgh, Moscow, Peking, Mars, Alpha Centauri, the center of the Milky Way, and out by the most distant quasars known. That the same laws of physics apply everywhere is quite remarkable. Certainly that represents a power greater than any of us. It represents an unexpected regularity to the universe. It need not have been. It could have been that every province of the cosmos had its own laws of nature. It’s not apparent from the start that the same laws have to apply everywhere.

Now, it would be wholly foolish to deny the existence of laws of nature. And if that is what we are talking about when we say God, then no one can possibly be an atheist, or at least anyone who would profess atheism would have to give a coherent argument about why the laws of nature are inapplicable.

I think he or she would be hard-pressed. So with this latter definition of God, we all believe in God. The former definition of God is much more dubious. And there is a wide range of other sorts of gods. And in every case we have to ask, “What kind of god are you talking about, and what is the evidence that this god exists?”




more later ....
 
....Theists find what Dawkins says not very funny because he is saying those things about THEM. You find it hilarious because he is saying those things about THEM and not YOU. If you can not understand this basic human truth, then, what can I say?
Dear brother, you are jumping to unnecessary conclusion. I did say "The theists do have a point. When posing unanswerable questions Dawkins could have stopped short of rubbing it in." did I not? Why are you ignoring that???

I also specifically mentioned the reason why I enjoy Dawkins' tart rebuttals, and you have not taken that into account as well.

By the way, when some posts were made about Dawkins' debates, you got pretty offended about 'personal attacks' on him, almost in an emotional manner, did you not? Same feeling arises in theists when their Gods and Popes are attacked by this person. Is this hard to understand?
The same "emotional" canard, let it be. I just pointed out that attacks against Dawkins are personal attacks, not on what he argues. That is all.

Here is another thing you are ignoring, I have always maintained I don't agree with every last word of Dawkins and neither do I hold a brief for him. Fire away at him, call him a hater, or even Hitler.


I admire Professor Carl Sagan. But he makes the same mistake many who think Science can answer the God question do.
I admire Sagan too. What you consider a "mistake" is what the theist's delusions are made of. I think we rationalists can live with that just fine.

Cheers!
 
Dear brother Nara Ji,

You said above:
I admire Sagan too. What you consider a "mistake" is what the theist's delusions are made of. I think we rationalists can live with that just fine.

Thank you for illustrating what I have been saying! :)

A logically discussed passage elicits the 'delusional' response. Of course, this is no name calling, because this is the TRUTH! :)

LOL.

Regards,
KRS
 
Thank you for illustrating what I have been saying!
Dear brother, you started it,

"But he makes the same mistake many who think Science can answer the God question do."




You didn't say you disagree with Sagan, you were quite confident he was mistaken. Look at my response in this context, please.

Alright, I want to get back to Carl Sagan, whether he is mistaken or not, let the members make up their own mind, and in this, you can be sure you will have most people with you.

Cheers!
 
I am a MASSIVE admirer of Sagan. we do not know of Dr. Sagan's internal beliefs. Sagan only spoke out about our IDEAS AND PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS about god. Please stop coloring him any way you want here's a sagan quote for all:

"An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no god. By some definitions atheism is very stupid."
- Dr. Carl Sagan

Dr Sagan self-identified as agnostic which means: that he believed that everything we are discussing is ESSENTIALLY UNKNOWABLE. It is out of our league to speak for men so great.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan#cite_note-skeptic.com-45
 
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Dear Boston,

இளிச்சவாய்s meaning is this:

I will give you an example:

You see just say someone runs down and degrades Hinduism cos he/she knows Hindus seldom or dont violently react to any situations so in this context the Hindu is supossed to be an இளிச்சவாய்s .

Its like as if we can take some one for granted knowing very well there wont be any opposition or violent reaction.

If you see Tamil Movies there is an actor by the name Sathyaraj..he always uses this terminology in his jokes.
 
Good Day Dr!

In English I believe the slang word is "punk"

punk - an ineffectual or weak person.
as a verb to punk is to badly defeat, humiliate, disrespect, etc.

Thanks for the education Doctor! :-D
 
Got it! Thanks a ton I know such things aren't always easy to articulate.
 
The ulterior etymology of the word "God" is disputed. Apart from the unlikely hypothesis of adoption from a foreign tongue, the OTeut. "ghuba" implies as its preTeut-type either "*ghodho-m" or "*ghodto-m". The former does not appear to admit of explanation; but the latter would represent the neut. pple. of a root "gheu-". There are two Aryan roots of the required form ("*g,heu-" with palatal aspirate) one with meaning 'to invoke' (Skr. "hu") the other 'to pour, to offer sacrifice' (Skr "hu", Gr. χεηi;ν, OE "geotàn" Yete v). OED Compact Edition, G, p. 267 (God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

So, it looks as though the word goes back ultimately to our very Vedic "hu" from which come hotr, swaha, etc. Therefore, God was, at that stage something or someone whom the humans felt they could call to (or, should it be upon?) in times of distress, danger, etc.

The Germanic words for God were originally neuter—applying to both genders—but during the process of the Christianization of the Germanic peoples from their indigenous Germanic paganism, the word became a masculine syntactic form.[SUP][5][/SUP] (ibid)

Now, the God concept being that in its origin, there need not be any serious disagreements if some people say that there is no God satisfying conditions a,b,c,d, etc. Only if there is a claim that there is no God of any sort whatsoever, should it be considered with some attention.

As the traditional wisdom says, paternity for anyone is a matter of faith/belief. If some outsider is to come and propagate that some person, say, X's father is not really the one who sired and that X's belief is a fallacy (like the God fallacy), how will that X receive this new-found wisdom, even if he is a confirmed atheist?

May be today there is an answer of genetic proof but imho, it will not be able to categorically prove whether X was really fathered by his deemed father, one of the paternal uncles or by the paternal grandfather. (Cases of the last types were there even among TB community, fyi.)

The peddling of this so-called atheism is just as good or as despicable as unsettling the mind of X in the above example.

As a conservative brahmin, I am not prepared to accept that our Acaryas like Sankara, Ramanuja and many others would have simply bluffed their way to universal recognition and respect and that new "avatars" like Dawkins, Sagan, Krauss etc., will be remaining in human memory any more than Carvaka.

But, to me, all this leeway being given to some people to spread atheism in these pages really indicate the extent of Brahmin downfall morally and ethically. sad...
 
Always keep smiling (Ilichavaya) to every one for every thing without any shame, self respect, self dignity, self interest etc..etc.

For those interested another word in English for this is a pushover and is at least actual English and not slang like "punk" would be :) Thanks for taking the time to educate, Sri C Ravi!
 
Dear Sri Sarma,

Dr Sagan should not be lumped with Krauss and Dawkins. I did not know the man personally but he was cut from such a very different cloth than the other two. The other two enjoy mockery and intellectual bullying. Dr Sagan was kind and gentle and dedicated to education. He loved people never publicly made fun of or made a show of other people's beliefs whether he thought them to be based on ignorance or not.

Sincerely,
Roman
 
Mr. Sharma,
My apology for liking your post#337.
I can not relinquish my Dharma of praising or critiquing a post as I see it. LOL
 
Mr. Sharma,
My apology for liking your post#337.
I can not relinquish my Dharma of praising or critiquing a post as I see it. LOL

No problem sir, even if you "unlike" it now. While you are doing your "Dharma", I am trying - at least in a very small way - to do "niṣkāmakarma" in making my posts.
 
Dear Sri Sarma,

Dr Sagan should not be lumped with Krauss and Dawkins. I did not know the man personally but he was cut from such a very different cloth than the other two. The other two enjoy mockery and intellectual bullying. Dr Sagan was kind and gentle and dedicated to education. He loved people never publicly made fun of or made a show of other people's beliefs whether he thought them to be based on ignorance or not.

Sincerely,
Roman

Shri Sankara sir,

Long time ago I read one or two books by Carl Sagan which I have practically forgotten now! But I will be able to recognize from the titles/cover pages, I think. Mr. Sagan did not come out as an atheist to me from those few books. But now that Prof. Nara is quoting excerpts from his books to support his atheistic leanings, I clubbed the names together. Thank you very much for clarifying.

While on the point, I personally feel it is easy for a person to negate God or some power above him and contend that after all, everything is simple natural forces and laws which can be brought within human control sooner or later. But in such a process, Man loses a golden chance to improve himself and to raise his consciousness to a higher level, even if it is for just a few fleeting seconds. It is like one child going to school and another just idling at home, without any of the troubles/inconveniences of school.
 
Dear Sri BostonSankara Ji,

You said above in post # 332:
Dr Sagan self-identified as agnostic which means: that he believed that everything we are discussing is ESSENTIALLY UNKNOWABLE. It is out of our league to speak for men so great.

I agree with your first statement - I definitely do not agree with your second.

If I think that if what even Lord Shiva spoke is not correct in my opinion, then I have every right to speak up. Otherwise, I would be intellectually dishonest.

This has nothing to do whether he was a great man or not. As I have said, I admire the gentle man's work greatly. He is one of the handful of modern scientists I admire, for contributions beyond his field to the mankind.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear KRS Ji,

I think I should've emphasized the word FOR in my post. We most certainly can and should speak our minds and opinions. My only point was to emphasize the difference in speaking about someone and their legacy and speaking FOR it by infusing new rhetoric into it. That is all I meant by the second statement. :)



Dear Sri BostonSankara Ji,

You said above in post # 332:


I agree with your first statement - I definitely do not agree with your second.

If I think that if what even Lord Shiva spoke is not correct in my opinion, then I have every right to speak up. Otherwise, I would be intellectually dishonest.

This has nothing to do whether he was a great man or not. As I have said, I admire the gentle man's work greatly. He is one of the handful of modern scientists I admire, for contributions beyond his field to the mankind.

Regards,
KRS
 
Carl Sagan was an atheist in the classical sense of the word, i.e. a theoretical agnostic in as much as human intellect is in all likelihood too puny to understand the grand questions, let alone find definitive answers. However, when it comes down to day-to-day life, a deity that cares enough to listen to our prayers, dies on a cross to redeem us, or presents himself with endless supply of garment, or with four hands and five weapons, sleeps on a snake bed floating on a milky ocean, he was no less a diehard atheist than the much reviled Dawkins, or the less known but equally if not more brilliant Krauss. Those who cite Sagan out of context and paint a picture that he was sympathetic to theism are in fact besmirching what the man believed and his memory.

Alright, now let me continue excerpting Sagan's Chapter 6 from his book "The God Hypothesis".

Now, it would be wholly foolish to deny the existence of laws of nature. And if that is what we are talking about when we say God, then no one can possibly be an atheist, or at least anyone who would profess atheism would have to give a coherent argument about why the laws of nature are inapplicable.

The former definition of God
(a personal God of the kind all religions assert) is much more dubious.

... it is insufficient to say, “I believe in that sort of god, because that’s what I was told when I was young,” because other people are told different things about quite different religions that contradict those of my parents. So they can’t all be right. And in fact they all may be wrong. It is certainly true that many different religions are mutually inconsistent. It’s not that they just aren’t perfect simulacrums of each other but rather that they grossly contradict each other.

I’ll give you a simple example; there are many. In the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, the world is a finite number of years old. By counting up the begats in the Old Testament, you can come to the conclusion that the world is a good deal less than ten thousand years old. In the seventeenth century, the archbishop of Armagh, James Ussher, made a courageous but fundamentally flawed effort to count them up precisely. He came to a specific date on which God created the world. It was October 23 in 4004 B.C., a Sunday.
(Those who say only people like Dawkins mock, think again!)

Now, think again of all the possibilities: worlds without gods; gods without worlds; gods that are made by preexisting gods; gods that were always here; gods that never die; gods that do die; gods that die more than once; different degrees of divine intervention in human affairs; zero, one, or many prophets; zero, one, or many saviors; zero, one, or many resurrections; zero, one, or many gods. And related questions about sacrament, religious mutilation, and scarification, baptism, monastic orders, ascetic expectations, the presence or absence of an afterlife, days to eat fish, days not to eat at all, how many afterlives you have coming to you, justice in this world or the next world or no world at all, reincarnation, human sacrifice, temple prostitution, jihads, and so forth. It’s a vast array of things that people believe.

Different religions believe different things. There’s a grab bag of religious alternatives. And there are clearly more combinations of alternatives than there are religions, even though there are something like a few thousand religions on the planet today. In the history of the world, there probably were many tens, maybe hundreds of thousands, if you think back to our hunter-gatherer ancestors when the typical human community was a hundred or so people. Back then there were as many religions as there were hunter-gatherer bands, although the differences between them were probably not all that great. But nobody knows, since, unfortunately, we have virtually no knowledge left of what our ancestors for the greatest part of the tenure of humans on this planet believed, because word-of-mouth tradition is inadequate and writing had not been invented.

So, considering this range of alternatives, one thing that comes to my mind is how striking it is that when someone has a religious conversion experience, it is almost always to the religion or one of the religions that are mainly believed in his or her community. Because there are so many other possibilities. For example, it’s very rare in the West that someone has a religious-conversion experience in which the principal deity has the head of an elephant and is painted blue. That is quite rare. But in India there is a blue, elephant-headed god that has many devotees. And seeing depictions of this god there is not so rare. How is it that the apparition of elephant gods is restricted to Indians and doesn’t happen except in places where there is a strong Indian tradition? How is that apparitions of the Virgin Mary are common in the West but rarely occur in places in the East where there isn’t a strong Christian tradition? Why don’t the details of the religious belief cross over the cultural barriers? It is hard to explain unless the details are entirely determined by the local culture and have nothing to do with something that is externally valid.

Put another way, any preexisting predisposition to religious belief can be powerfully influenced by the indigenous culture, wherever you happen to grow up. And especially if the children are exposed early to a particular set of doctrine and music and art and ritual, then it is as natural as breathing, which is why religions make such a large effort to attract the very young.

Well, this is the kind atheist I am, the Carl Sagan kind!!!
 
Prof. Nara Ji,

This is fun but taxing. You are a hyper intelligent man but as such I will call you on your artful and tricky approach to this discussion. You say, "Those who cite Sagan out of context and paint a picture that he was sympathetic to theism are in fact besmirching what the man believed and his memory." Oh quite the contrary, Nara Ji. Quoting the man directly and in context is anything but besmirching. Nice try. Dr. Sagan, much like yourself, patently rejected the notion of a grand diety who lords over the universe. He relished in pointing to the Abrahamic interpretation of a godhead and shattering that image but he in no way was so adamant as to subscribe fully to atheism. Why? Why do you think that is? I will tell you why. Because he is a REAL scientist. He knows that even in a world of physics all we have are theories. There are NO PROOFS in science. To have a proof is to cease investigation which is in and of itself contrary to scientific development. A good scientist never speaks in absolutes. The man may not have believed in god as a concept like myself but he knew better than to close his mind to possibility.

Now with that said and out of the way... You are a highly intelligent man and FAR too intelligent to be bringing up deep symbolism in our mythology and trying to portray it as some type of physical account of higher beings. Siva, siva have mercy!!!! You KNOW the symbolism behind Narayana resting afloat in the milk ocean probably better than most people here. Do not besmirch us (your brethren) by implying some face value meaning to OUR (yours too!) incredibly deep revelations. You may turn your back on them and laugh at our elephant headed god if you like and you may cite that in no scientific way can that be possible. Internally though you know that you are playing yourself as the fool to imply you view our mythology in such a black and white manner. You know that most here do not view things in such light either.

Let's look at an example. Here are two false statements.... The sky is blue. . . Sri Ganesha is fat....
These are both false. The sky is absolutely not blue only through refracting light does it appear so. What seems blue is an interaction of physical phenomenon. You know this. Sri Ganesha is called lambodaraya. One with a large belly. This is symbolism meant to portray that within his core exists all of reality. The allusion to physical size is simply meant to convey a concept of infinite vastness contained within. A picture is worth one thousands words as they say. But this you know too. Scientifically the concept is called abstraction. We present a higher level language or image in order to portray a multitude of concepts at once. This is akin to functions in computer programming which simply in one word call hundreds of smaller steps into play. The user of the language only needs to learn those intricacies once it is time and maybe even never. The murties and mantram are exactly this as well. Distilled knowledge of higher philosophical concepts.

If you want to be literal and say ridiculous things akin to "Impossible an ocean of milk would surely spoil!" Then the disservice you do in taking everything you learned growing up at face value and denying its depth because of a new found philosophy is on you. As we say in the states, try not to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Your signature says: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?" At what point were you ever taught this? At what point did you decide that you would drop all of our deeper meanings just so that you could make fun of us and your former religion? I assure you the only person who appears at a loss here is you because if ANYONE here is capable of synthesizing our religious and philosophical concepts into a cohesive picture with science it would be you. It has never been implied that it is god's duty to save us from ourselves. Quite the contrary Pasa mala is here so that we ARE subject to ourselves and actions. We are bound to life in a reflexive and reactive universe just as Einstein portrayed.

I will let you know something about myself. I grew up in poverty. For some reason or another my entire life except for one portion I have been close to god. I was blessed to find the Bhagavad Gita at 13 which I read and cherished. I had no ideas of fanciful blue men at that time. At 13 I had the intelligence to understand that Sri Ram and Sri Krishna were INDIAN MEN (while Krishna was said to be of dark skin, as if we've never seen a dark skinned tamilian / indian in our lives!!!) The artists portrayed them as such to show in picture a divine nature withing the subjects. I believe that you know and have always known this as well. On with the story. In my mid 20's I came into a life crisis. I lost my connection to god and myself. An intensely close relationship failed and I became engrossed in the world, in science, and in my pain. I resented the way I suffered with no money, I resented that my people thought I would burn in hell for worshiping "idols", I resented my loss, I resented my government for lack of support, and I resented god for being born to an abusive mother and absent father. I WHOLEHEARTEDLY turned adamantly to atheism. I mean seriously, as your signature says, HOW COULD GOD LET THIS HAPPEN?!?!?! I was alone, alone in my lab, and alone in my heart. The metrics and numbers while dependable were undeniably cold and offered no medicine to soothe my sadness and void. I had gone from climbing 15,000 ft mountains standing on the summit chanting Maha Mrityunjaya mantra as close to and as directly to Sivasurya as I possibly could get to being overweight and depressed and indulging in bad behaviors. I said all the same things you say. I devoured Dawkins and Krauss and laughed mightily at the theists and what I perceived as ignorance on my part. After all this is a world of pain and not one of mercy. Then finally one day drunk on alcohol alone and heartbrokenI looked into my temple room. The deepa sitting unlit, the linga begging for abisheka. I had dropped the ball. I had lost it all. Even my science held no spark for me. A creator of new substances and molecules in the lab I was a god among men but distraught like the devas in the mahishaasura story. Power is no guarantee of sat-chit-aananda. I cried. What had been my family (Father Siva, Mama Ganesha, Amma Sri lalitha Tripurasundari). I left behind. Images gathering dust no different than my own heart at the time. Who was I? Just some white kid latching on to a foreign lands culture? I cried out to Sri Vinayaka. Please bring me back to the feet of your father! Bring me back TO MYSELF. Inside of me it was there all along and I knew it. But to know it is to be forced to be responsible for it. I had to step up to that plate. It was not gods place to FIX me it was my dharma and work to do. I am now back to my spiritual practice by the grace of god within me and outside of me. Through yoga I was slowly able to rebuild and re-realize the strength of manassa. Slowly my peace returned and my abuse of temple (my body) ceased.

I say this because I believe you will be back. You may never be Hindu again but you will return to your Brahminhood just as we all are. I speak of scholarship, kindness, meekness, strength of character and faith, leadership, and love. When I say the word Brahmin I do NOT ever imply jAti and caste bullsh*t. Socio-political interpretations of 6,000 year old scripture in the scope of the last 10% of that time-frame mean NOTHING to me. Soon they will mean little to anyone. Brahminism will flourish again when this happens. You will see white and black brahmins. You will see women standing as purohit. You may never have a word for the peace you WILL find. It will be inside of you and it will be greater than science and beyond explanation and you know this too. There won't be conflict at that time. It really doesn't matter if it is the natural laws themselves or even physical constants like pi that bring you this peace. It won't matter at all. But one thing is for certain, when you find that place you will have ceased the resent of the past and you will not be forced to portray things which YOU WELL KNOW as something which they are not. I will not say do not disrespect Narayana by saying such things as you said in your post. I will say do not disrespect yourself by implying that your understanding of the milk ocean is so shallow (no pun intended :) )that you think its an actual 360 sq. kilometers of milk like our own oceans.

Just a humble observation and share of my own journey.

We need you and people like you. If you exit this play you leave people like myself alone to bring reform. Your knowledge alone is the type to synthesize a new logical and ultimately inclusive brahminism and by brahminism I mean HUMANITY. Do not leave us too far behind by implying that we are all so ignorant as to be unable to understand the symbolism of our own religion. But even if you do we wait with open arms for your return to the fold because we are nothing without our shining stars of intelligence who actually deeply understand and are able to communicate these concepts like yourself.

Shanti,
Sankara

Carl Sagan was an atheist in the classical sense of the word, i.e. a theoretical agnostic in as much as human intellect is in all likelihood too puny to understand the grand questions, let alone find definitive answers. However, when it comes down to day-to-day life, a deity that cares enough to listen to our prayers, dies on a cross to redeem us, or presents himself with endless supply of garment, or with four hands and five weapons, sleeps on a snake bed floating on a milky ocean, he was no less a diehard atheist than the much reviled Dawkins, or the less known but equally if not more brilliant Krauss. Those who cite Sagan out of context and paint a picture that he was sympathetic to theism are in fact besmirching what the man believed and his memory.

Alright, now let me continue excerpting Sagan's Chapter 6 from his book "The God Hypothesis".

Now, it would be wholly foolish to deny the existence of laws of nature. And if that is what we are talking about when we say God, then no one can possibly be an atheist, or at least anyone who would profess atheism would have to give a coherent argument about why the laws of nature are inapplicable.

The former definition of God
(a personal God of the kind all religions assert) is much more dubious.

... it is insufficient to say, “I believe in that sort of god, because that’s what I was told when I was young,” because other people are told different things about quite different religions that contradict those of my parents. So they can’t all be right. And in fact they all may be wrong. It is certainly true that many different religions are mutually inconsistent. It’s not that they just aren’t perfect simulacrums of each other but rather that they grossly contradict each other.

I’ll give you a simple example; there are many. In the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, the world is a finite number of years old. By counting up the begats in the Old Testament, you can come to the conclusion that the world is a good deal less than ten thousand years old. In the seventeenth century, the archbishop of Armagh, James Ussher, made a courageous but fundamentally flawed effort to count them up precisely. He came to a specific date on which God created the world. It was October 23 in 4004 B.C., a Sunday.
(Those who say only people like Dawkins mock, think again!)

Now, think again of all the possibilities: worlds without gods; gods without worlds; gods that are made by preexisting gods; gods that were always here; gods that never die; gods that do die; gods that die more than once; different degrees of divine intervention in human affairs; zero, one, or many prophets; zero, one, or many saviors; zero, one, or many resurrections; zero, one, or many gods. And related questions about sacrament, religious mutilation, and scarification, baptism, monastic orders, ascetic expectations, the presence or absence of an afterlife, days to eat fish, days not to eat at all, how many afterlives you have coming to you, justice in this world or the next world or no world at all, reincarnation, human sacrifice, temple prostitution, jihads, and so forth. It’s a vast array of things that people believe.

Different religions believe different things. There’s a grab bag of religious alternatives. And there are clearly more combinations of alternatives than there are religions, even though there are something like a few thousand religions on the planet today. In the history of the world, there probably were many tens, maybe hundreds of thousands, if you think back to our hunter-gatherer ancestors when the typical human community was a hundred or so people. Back then there were as many religions as there were hunter-gatherer bands, although the differences between them were probably not all that great. But nobody knows, since, unfortunately, we have virtually no knowledge left of what our ancestors for the greatest part of the tenure of humans on this planet believed, because word-of-mouth tradition is inadequate and writing had not been invented.

So, considering this range of alternatives, one thing that comes to my mind is how striking it is that when someone has a religious conversion experience, it is almost always to the religion or one of the religions that are mainly believed in his or her community. Because there are so many other possibilities. For example, it’s very rare in the West that someone has a religious-conversion experience in which the principal deity has the head of an elephant and is painted blue. That is quite rare. But in India there is a blue, elephant-headed god that has many devotees. And seeing depictions of this god there is not so rare. How is it that the apparition of elephant gods is restricted to Indians and doesn’t happen except in places where there is a strong Indian tradition? How is that apparitions of the Virgin Mary are common in the West but rarely occur in places in the East where there isn’t a strong Christian tradition? Why don’t the details of the religious belief cross over the cultural barriers? It is hard to explain unless the details are entirely determined by the local culture and have nothing to do with something that is externally valid.

Put another way, any preexisting predisposition to religious belief can be powerfully influenced by the indigenous culture, wherever you happen to grow up. And especially if the children are exposed early to a particular set of doctrine and music and art and ritual, then it is as natural as breathing, which is why religions make such a large effort to attract the very young.

Well, this is the kind atheist I am, the Carl Sagan kind!!!
 
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Dear Sankara,

Your post addressed to me does not present any argument and therefore I get a feeling you are not expecting a response from me. However, let me make a few short observation and let it go.

About Carl Sagan, from what I have read he was not a theist, quite emphatically not a theist. The short quotation on atheism you cited, one a lot of people find with a Google search and immediately get all excited, includes a huge caveat -- "by some definition".

Your claims about symbolism, vedas, brahminism, etc., are not very convincing to me. These topics have been discussed many times, so I am not very inclined to engage in one more round.

You have also made several observations about me, nothing derogatory of course, so I am not complaining. However, since you don't know me from Adam, these are speculations with no validity.

Cheers!
 
Carl Sagan was a confirmed atheist, in whatever sense the term "atheist" could rationally mean, namely, agnostic with respect to an uncaring first cause, but firmly atheistic with any God Proposition made so far by any religion. I am not just saying this because I want Sagan to be an atheist, I am saying this because this is what Sagan himself says in essence.

Continuing from where I left yesterday, here is today's ration, one that includes Hindu argument for God, please read on ....

I would like now to turn to the issue of alleged evidence or, as they’re called, proofs of the existence of God. And I will mainly spend my time on the Western proofs. But to show an ecumenical spirit, let me begin with some Hindu proofs, which in many ways are as sophisticated and certainly more ancient than the Western arguments.

Udayana, an eleventh-century logician, had a set of seven proofs of the existence of God, and I won’t mention all of them; I’ll just try to convey a sense of it. And, by the way, the kind of god that Udayana is talking about is not exactly the same, as you might imagine, as the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god. His god is all-knowing and imperishable but not necessarily omnipotent and compassionate.

First, Udayana reasons that all things must have a cause. The world is full of things. Something must have made those things. And this is very similar to a Western argument that we’ll come to shortly.

Secondly, an argument not heard in the West is the argument from atomic combinations. It is quite sophisticated. It says at the beginning of Creation, atoms had to be bonded with each other to make bigger things. And such a bonding of atoms always requires the activity of a conscious agent. Well, now we know that’s false. Or we know, at least, that there are laws of atomic interaction that determine how atoms bind together. It’s a subject called chemistry. And you might say that this is due to the intervention of a deity but it does not require the direct intervention of a deity. All the deity has to do is establish the laws of chemistry and retire.

Third is an argument from the suspension of the world. The world isn’t falling, as is clear by just looking out. We’re not hurtling through space, apparently, and therefore something is holding the world up, and that something is God. Well, this is a quite natural view of things. It’s connected with the idea that we are stationary and at the center of the universe, a misapprehension that all peoples all over the world have had. In fact we are falling at a terrific rate of speed in orbit around the Sun. And every year we go 2 pi times the radius of the Earth orbit. If you work that out, you’ll find it’s extremely fast.

Fourth is an argument from the existence of human skills. And this is very close to the von Daniken argument that if someone didn’t show us how to do things, we wouldn’t know how to do it. I think there’s plentiful argument against that.

Then there is the existence of authoritative knowledge separate from human skills. How would we know things that are in, for example, the Vedas, the Hindu holy books, unless God had written them? The idea that humans were able to write the Vedas was difficult for Udayana to accept.

Well, this gives a sense of these arguments and shows that there is a pervasive human wish to give a rational explanation for the existence of a God or gods, and also, I maintain, it demonstrates that these arguments are not always highly successful. Let me now go to some of the Western arguments, which may be entirely familiar to everyone, in which case I apologize.


Sagan was certainly diplomatic, a reason why he is not as reviled as Dawkins or Hitchens. But, on an intellectual level, there is no daylight between their views on theism and his.

In the final analysis, in the solitude of our own inner conscience, what matters most is not whether any of these people could have said what they said in a less confrontational way, all that matters is whether what they said makes sense or not. This is an exercise for each one of us to conduct, with our own inner conscience and rationality standing in judgement. Anyone who dares to delve deep into this sphere and comes up with a conviction, one that does not blindly rely on what the social norms dictate, I have no qualms respecting that judgment.

There is more to come from Carl Sagan ....

Cheers!
 
Carl Sagan continues with his arguments to show why a creator God proposed by all the major religions is no more than mere conjecture. The validity of these mutually conflicting conjectures, or lack there of, can come only from science, if at all. If a definitive and verifiable answer is found, it becomes part of science, ipso facto. If scientific process can't answer the question, then nobody can.

Science not being able to answer certain questions is what theists cash in on, as though this inability offers them carte blanche to conjure something up and triumphantly assert it as the ultimate answer. Science can't answer these question, so here, I have a nice answer, take it, if you don't, then you are a fool, you are arrogant, you want to force your atheism on others, or any of a whole host of other snubs -- so goes the argument. If this gives them satisfaction, then I don't mind such comments, afterall they serve some purpose, their own selfish satisfaction.

Back to Carl Sagan:
Let me now go to some of the Western arguments, which may be entirely familiar to everyone, in which case I apologize.

First of all, there is the cosmological argument,,,, (T)here are things all around us; those things were caused by something else. And so, after a while, you find yourself back to remote times and causes. Well, it can’t go on forever, an infinite regress of causes... you need to come to an uncaused first cause. Something that started everything going that was not itself caused; that is, that was always there. And this is defined as God.

There are two conflicting hypotheses here, two alternative hypotheses. One is that the universe was always here, and the other is that God was always here. Why is it immediately obvious that one of these is more likely than the other? Or, put another way, if we say that God made the universe, it is reasonable to then ask, “And who made God?” "

Virtually every child asks that question and is usually shushed by the parents and told not to ask embarrassing questions. But how does saying that God made the universe, and never mind asking where God came from, how is that more satisfying than to say the universe was always here?

In modern astrophysics there are two contending views. First of all, there is no doubt in my mind, and I think almost all astrophysicists agree, that the evidence from the expansion of the universe, ....... that something like 13 or 15 billion years ago all the matter in the universe was compressed into an extremely small volume, and that something that can surely be called an explosion happened at that time.....

Now, what happened before that? There are two views. One is “Don’t ask that question,” which is very close to saying that God did it. And the other is that we live in an oscillating universe in which there is an infinite number of expansions and contractions.

The former of these views happens, by chance, to be close to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic view, the latter close to the standard Hindu views. And so, if you like, you can think of the varying contentions of these two major religious views being fought out on the field of contemporary satellite astronomy. Because that’s where the answer to this question will very likely be decided.

Is there enough matter in the universe to prevent the expansion from continuing for- ever, so that the self-gravity will make the expansion stop and be followed by a contraction? Or is there not enough matter in the universe to stop the expansion, so everything keeps expanding forever? This is an experimental question. And it is very likely that in our lifetime we will have the answer to it. And I stress that this is very different from the usual theological approach, where there is never an experiment that can be performed to test out any contentious issue.

[...]

Now, by the way, on this issue of who’s older, God or the universe, there’s actually a three-by-three matrix: God can have always existed but will not exist for all future time. That is to say God might have no beginning but might have an end. God might have a beginning but no end. God might have no beginning and no end. Likewise for the universe. The universe might be infinitely old, but it will end. The universe might have begun a finite time ago but will go on for- ever, or it might have always existed and will never end. Those are just the logical possibilities. And it’s curious that human myth has some of those possibilities but not others. ....
 
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