The Great Debate

[P.J.]

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The Great Debate

About a century or two ago, the Pope decided that all the Sikhs had to leave Italy. Naturally, there was a big uproar from the Sikh community.

The Pope made a deal. He would have a religious debate with a member of the Sikh community. If the latter won, the Sikhs could stay. If the Pope won, the Sikhs would have to leave.


The Sikhs realized that they had no choice. So they picked a middle-aged man, named Harbinder Singh, to represent them.


Harbinder asked for one condition before he would accept: to make the debate more interesting, neither side would be allowed to talk. The Pope agreed.

The day of the great debate arrived.


Harbinder Singh and the Pope sat opposite each other for a full minute before the Pope raised his hand and showed three fingers.


Harbinder looked back at him and raised one finger.

The Pope waved his fingers in a circle around his head.
Harbinder pointed to the ground where he sat.


The Pope pulled out a wafer and a glass of wine.

Harbinder pulled out an apple.


The Pope stood up and said, "I give up. This man is too good. The Sikhs can stay".

An hour later, the cardinals were all around the Pope, asking him what had happened. The Pope said, "First. I held up three fingers to represent the Holy Trinity.


"He responded by holding up one finger to remind me that there was still one God common to both our religions.


"Then I waved my finger around me to show him that God was all around us.


"He responded by pointing to the ground and showing that God was also right here with us.


"I pulled out the wine and wafer to show that God absolves us from our sins. He pulled out an apple to remind me of original sin. He had an answer for everything. What could I do?"

Meanwhile, the Sikh community had crowded around Harbinder Singh. "What happened?" they asked.


"Well," said Harbinder, "first he said to me that the Sikhs had three days to get out of here. I told him in no uncertain terms to buzz off, and that not one of us was leaving.


"Then he told me that this whole city would be cleared of Sikhs. I let him know that we were staying right here".
"Yes, yes, ... and then?" asked the crowd.


"I don't know", said Harbinder. "He took out his lunch, and I took out mine!"


sikhchic.com | The Art and Culture of the Diaspora | The Great Debate

 

[V.Balasubramani]

P.J. Sir,

This OP reminds me the debate between Sanskrit poet KalidAsa and the princess.
When the princess showed her one finger up,
KalidAsa showed his two fingers -
When the princess showed her five fingers,
KalidAsa showed his fist…

Anyidea about the signs and interpretation……????

 

[P.J.]

Dear Balasubramani Sir

Yes, i remember a scene in Tamil Kalidas Film where Shivaji acting as Kalidas faces poet and beats him by showing sings!!

I will try for that link and post it here if i find it.

 

[P.J.]

Dear Balasubramani Sir

Here is link about Kalidasa facing the Princess and winning

his is an anectode about the most important incident in KALidAsa’s life that gave him his name. Wikipedia says KAlidAsa’s place in SAnskrit literature is tantamount to that of Shakespeare in modern English.

KAlidAsa was born as a stammering and brainless Brahmin boy. One of the most commonly quoted stories about KAlidAsa is an incident where he sits on the branch of the tree that is trying to cut. While many people laugh at him, one passerby takes pity on him and warns him that he is going to fall down if he continues cutting that branch. And true, KAlidAsa fell. After falling, he quickly ran to that passerby and praised him for being such a great astrologer. Was that sheer intelligence?

The princess of the kingdom where KAlidAsa lived was known to be a very learned women, who haughtily rejected many suitors after she defeated them in philosophical debates. Some of her suitors were very learner scholars themselves and wanted to teach the princess a lesson for being so haughty. When they heard about the stupid KAlidAsa, they decided to masquerade him as a learned pundit and impress the princess. But KALidAsa was to keep his mouth shut all the time.

The princess was told that a great guru was seeking to debate with her. But since he was on a silence vow, his disciples would interpret his sign language. The princess also decided to use sign language.

She showed one finger up – indicating the principle of Advaita and one Brahman. KAlidAsa was stupid. He thought she meant “I will poke your eye”. He raised two fingers thinking “I will poke both your eyes”. The so-called disciples interpreted thus “Though there is only one God, the jIvAtma and the paramAtma are different. They are realized by people in different stages of spiritual development.” The princess was impressed.

In a similar fashion, when the princess lifts her palm up indicating that this sriSti is made of the five elements – air, water, fire, earth and ether, KAlidAsa thinks “She is going to slap me. Let me punch her”, and he shows a fist. The thrilled interpreters translate this into “Even though the universe is made up of the five elements, during praLayAm, everything that is manifested, merges into the Brahman”. The princess was impressed with KAlidAsa’s scholarship and immediately fell at his feet.

KAlidAsa continued to remain silent and he found himself married to this beautiful princess very soon.

Not until after the marriage did the princess realize how she had been fooled. She insulted KAlidAsa and cried in pity for herself. KAlidAsa was deeply hurt when his wife insulted him thus, and sadly he left the palace to kill himself. But when he went to the river to drown, he saw how the stones were eroded by the river. He realized that if the river could erode something as hard as stone, then Mother KALi could easily erode his ignorance.


Read more from here:

KalidAsa « SanAtana Dharma

 

[Naina_Marbus]

Here is an alternative version:

Long ago, in Ujjain, in present day Madhyapradesh, there was a beautiful princess with great intelligence. Her intelligence made her very conceited. She declared that she will marry only a person who defeats her in a match of wits. Many scholars who came to the palace to take up her challenge were easily defeated. She could answer all their questions. They could not give satisfactory replies to most of her questions or disprove any of her arguments. So, her marriage was getting delayed. The King felt frustrated. He scolded the elders for not being able to bring a young man who was good enough to defeat his daughter.

The elders decided to put an end to the princess’ foolishness. They held long secret discussions and decided to coach a fool to ask tricky questions. They soon found a young shepherd, named Kalidasa, sitting on top of a tree, cutting a branch by sitting on the edge of the branch. They decided that this was the man they were looking for. They told him, “We are very pleased with your feat. Come with us to the Palace. The King will be pleased to meet you.”

They hatched a plan - to dress up the young man like a noble scholar. To avoid any serious scholarly argument with the princess, they told the young man to keep silent as far as possible always and particularly during arguments; and convey whatever he wanted to say only in the form of hand gestures. Some of them would accompany him pretending to be his disciples, and provide all the explanations needed.

The young fool was brought to the court, dressed as a learned man. The elders ( pretending to be disciples) prepared him for the journey promising a royal feast. He was introduced as a Great Guru doing penance in the Himalayas.

The conference hall had many paintings depicting scenes from the Ramayana. Seeing a fierce picture of Ravana among them, the fool shouted in amazement, “Bho Rabhana!”

The princess was shocked at the wrong pronunciation. She remarked, “It is Ravana, not Rabhana.” The Guru’s disciples who were ever ready to come to his rescue, said, “Your Excellency, there is sound reasoning behind addressing the eldest Rakshasa prince as Rabhana. Remember that his younger brothers are Kumbhakarna and Vibheeshana. Both the names contain the syllable ‘bha’. Hence it is all the more correct to say Rabhana, not Ravana.”

The princess could not challenge the logic. She felt that at last she had come across some one good enough to match her. The session was about to begin. One of the disciples told the princess that the Guru would communicate only in gestures. The princess agreed and said she will do the same.

The Princess described a circle in the air and then raised a finger, indicating one and looked questioningly at the fool. The disciples quietly interpreted it to him as, “The princess is asking the Guruji, whether he believes in a single God, Adwaitha.” But the fool did not need their interpretation. He had his own interpretation. He thought the princess is asking whether he can eat one full roti. He raised two fingers, implying he can eat two. The disciples interpreted it to the princess as: The Guruji professes the Dwaitha, the theory of Jeevatma and Paramatma.”

Princess raised three fingers, which was interpreted by the disciples to the fool as Trinity. Guruji gave four fingers ( implying he can eat four rotis), which the princess interpreted as representing the Four Vedas.

Thus the princess and the fool went on increasing the number of raised fingers. The explanations given by the disciples were: The five elements- Panchbhootas, the six Sciences, the Seven Rishis, the Eight Divine Guarding Elephants – Ashtadiggajas, the Nine planets and the final ten fingers of the Guruji was obviously the Dasavatara of Lord Vishnu.

Then came one last gesture from the Guru. He violently shook his head pointing at the princess and beat on his belly. The princess was at a total loss to understand this and after a long silence she whispered to her father. “Father, I concede that I have been defeated by this handsome wise man. You can go ahead with the marriage.”

Even the disciples were puzzled. So they made up an explanation for the last gesture - “No theory exists beyond the Ten incarnation theory. It is not correct on the part of you and me to proceed with arguments about God in this manner.”

Subsequently, they asked the fool what he meant. And he explained: “Even if the princess insisted, I wouldn’t be able to take any more than ten rotis. If I took more, my belly will burst”

 

[renuka]

Now the greater debate is "Is this Kalidas story actually true"

Somehow even till today Tamil movies try to portray an arrogant girl being brought down to subterranean level by a male who does not match up to her in anyway.

I think all such stories are written by males who cant handle confident intelligent females and they make up stories that the female was arrogant etc.

For all you know the Princess only wanted an intelligent male as her spouse and all the males in her area where not happy that a female was more intelligent than them and painted a picture that she is arrogant etc.
Hell hath no fury like a male ego bruised!

But I wonder why the Princess did not choose a Prince instead cos at least the Prince and her would have had similar backgrounds in lifestyle and upbringing and brains should not be that much of a criteria cos as men age they all become the same!LOL

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Mam,

This great Sanskrit poet called as KalidAsa is an ardent devotee of Kaali, a women Goddess. And only with the blessings of this women goddess, this dull head turned into a Sanskrit poet and a dramatist. He prayed only a women goddess. No male God made him intelligent as per the story. Why women Goddess were projected in such a manner on those days……….????

 

[renuka]

Mam,

This great Sanskrit poet called as KalidAsa is an ardent devotee of Kaali, a women Goddess. And only with the blessings of this women goddess, this dull head turned into a Sanskrit poet and a dramatist. He prayed only a women goddess. No male God made him intelligent as per the story. Why women Goddess were projected in such a manner on those days……….????

Dear sir,

The Indian male's ego is a fragile one.

Worshiping Goddesses is fine for the average Indian male and its just stops there.

Mainly becos they are taught to look upon a Goddess as a mother and feel some maternal bond and their egos are not bruised in a Mother Son relationship.

They will never look at a Goddess in the Sakha Bhava mode(as a friend)...cos with a friend one still stands the chance of having their egos bruised.

Have you seen any male devotee in the past have Sakha Bhava for a Goddess?

As far as I know there was no one...all of them looked at a Goddess as a Mother.

Among all the Bhavas I like Sakha Bhava the best cos only with a true friend we can really be ourselves.

 

[P.J.]

Naina_Marbus Sir

Did you read my post no 4 ? This story is already posted by me.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Naina_Marbus Sir

Did you read my post no 4 ? This story is already posted by me.

P.J. Sir,

Naina_Marbus Sir’s story has different version.

 

[Naina_Marbus]

Naina_Marbus Sir

Did you read my post no 4 ? This story is already posted by me.

Please read my post carefully and completely. It is a different version. My first sentence itself says that.

 

[Naina_Marbus]

But I wonder why the Princess did not choose a Prince instead cos at least the Prince and her would have had similar backgrounds in lifestyle and upbringing and brains should not be that much of a criteria cos as men age they all become the same!LOL

[FONT=&quot]In spite of the rough and tumble of today’s world, rationality requires that it is necessary to see our past world and react to it as it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]rather than as we wish it would be.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[Naina_Marbus]

The notion of men as sexual aggressors is so ingrained.

Yet the results of a new study by a woman researcher reveals that they are being coerced into sex by girls and young women.

Bryana H. French and her team of researchers at the University of Missouri, have recently (March 25, 2014 ) published a study in the journal “Psychology of Men and Masculinity”, which concluded that “43 percent of high school boys and young college men”—yes, boys and young men—“reported they had an unwanted sexual experience and of those, 95 percent said a female acquaintance was the aggressor.”

French pointed out that “the victimization of men is rarely explored” and concluded hopefully that her team’s findings could “help lead to better prevention by identifying the various types of coercion that men face and by acknowledging women as perpetrators against men.”

The idea that boys (those sex-obsessed little monsters) could be victims of “sexual coercion,” while young girls (so often on the receiving end of clumsy and aggressive sexual advances of the sex-obsessed little monsters) could be perpetrators is, to many, counterintuitive and unlikely. “We’ve been grossly negligent when it comes to talking to teenage boys about sex because society makes the assumption that young adult men are sex-crazed maniacs. But men and teenage boys have tender feelings too, and we often neglect them when it comes to sexuality.”

That females can be sexually aggressive—and young men and teenage boys can sheepishly submit to sexual aggression—is considered peculiar. But according to French’s research, only “18 percent [of respondents] reported sexual coercion by physical force” while 31 percent said “they were verbally coerced [and] 26 percent described unwanted seduction by sexual behaviors.”

“I really do believe that girls are more aggressive sexually today than they were ten years ago, and I haven’t seen the same trend in boys. I think it has a lot to do with the hook-up culture where there’s this permission to get involved physically without getting involved emotionally. Boys were always expected to be the sexual initiators, and now girls are doing the initiating.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/28/can-boys-be-coerced-into-sex.html

 

[V.Balasubramani]

The notion of men as sexual aggressors is so ingrained.

Yet the results of a new study by a woman researcher reveals that they are being coerced into sex by girls and young women.

Can Boys Be ?Coerced? Into Sex? - The Daily Beast

Sir,
Yes, you are right Sir.
In another thread, some time back, when a dear member quoted this saying“ஆவதும்பெண்ணாலே அழிவதும் பெண்ணாலே “ I had to differ.
Now I openly tender my apologies to him.

Thanks for posting this.