The Lost Tribe of Timbuktu..the rope and the snake.

[renuka]

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Dear Renukaji,

Originally Posted by renuka
Conclusion: The rope is real..the snake is not real and past memories is a protective mechanism and not really a burden.

I am an advaitin. There was enough light in the room. This "rope" was lying there. I had never seen a snake or a rope in my life. (I am from a long forgotten tribe from Timbuctoo and in Timbuctoo we do not have snakes and ropes at all.) So when I saw a rope lying there i thought this is @#$%^&*. So the rope of you was @#$%^&* for me as that was what the pratamaprathyaksham conveyed to me. Next day when I saw a rope of yours a wee bit longer I recalled it was @#$%^&*.

But the problem was I had my love by my side. She is from a different tribe and they had a lot of snakes but no ropes in their civilization. When she saw the rope she too thought it was @#$%^&*!. we laughed and went away.

So the conclusion is:

@#$%^&* is real. Not rope nor snake. So we are back to square one grappling with pratamapratyaksham-the primary consciousness. Let us see whether we are able to understand/perceive. And this is not for Non-scholars who come here to hang their hat.

LOL.

This thread is in response to Vaagmi ji's answer in the scholarly section of Forum.

I brought it to GD cos its easier to interact with everyone out here.

Ok Dear Vaagmi ji,


When you saw the "rope" you at first were unsure what it was..you have never seen a rope or a snake ..so your mind was in search mode..looking for the closest image known to you..your past stored data..then you found similarity with @#$%^&*.

What do we understand from this?

When we encounter something we had not seen before..whether its a rope or snake or @#$%^&*...we try to link it with something familiar to establish an understanding in our mind.

Why does this happen?

Reason is becos our subconscious works in the background..it searches for an answer without even we knowing it.

I can give a simple example..sometimes when we see a person we haven't met for a long time and we forget his/her name..we try to remember but we can't..then just say after some 1 hour we suddenly remember his/her name..the reason is becos when the mind gets an input it goes into search mode in the background..the subconscious mind searches for an answer without even we actively trying to look for an answer.

So even a pratama prathyaksham is never a virgin one..one still tries to link it to a past stored image.

Even a virgin bride does not scream "snake snake" in the dark on her first night when she has a pratama prathyaksham of a @#$%^&* becos she is aware that a @#$%^&* is attached to a human of the XY kind.

Therefore I feel the past is as important as the present and there is no acute need to be so much into NOW and think past is a burden.

Nothing is a burden..cos we are not bound to start with.

 

[tks]

Thank you!!!

 

[tks]

May I request others to move many of the other posts here. One is a personal opinion, the others are related to this topic. There was one question there that can be answered fully in that thread which I will do after these posts are moved. Thank you all

 

[Govinda]

when do we panic?

Renuka,

When anyone sees a rope in the dark, first thing the brain does is to see that as a rope.

Only if there was an experience of coming across a snake in the room, in the house, in the neighbour-hood, and only if it is in the recent times, than a very past, then the brain tries to signal the possibilities of danger. If these are remote chances, then one does not panic.

Assuming there was a recent episode or even current news about lost snakes in the wild, then one would have that in the sub-conscious mind. Even in this case, one first recalls how that rope ended up there in the first place. Only if that is not the case, one goes to analyze the nature of the rope, its curvature, length and if its moving or not. By then one can figure it out and proceed with their work at hand.

Only someone with an eye-defect or in the dark place, would like to look for visibility/light source, to find out the reality, rather than to panic.

In some cases, either due to earlier experience or who is hypervigilant, pay attention to the nature of the object(rope) every time they see an object similar to curvy/striped snake. They are right then sure of the danger or not. Then, they move on.

There are very mindful/aware of the sorroundings, including materialists, can scan the object with its associated properties. These people do that as an habit/personality, but not to panic.

So, the frontal cortex (analytic brain) works first before coming to any random conclusion or panic. Subconsious mind/emotional brain works with extreme experiences of suffering or happiness and triggers the panic signal, which is an assistant to the analytical brain.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Even a virgin bride does not scream "snake snake" in the dark on her first night when she has a pratama prathyaksham of a @#$%^&* becos she is aware that a @#$%^&* is attached to a human of the XY kind.

She may scream 'snake snake', if there is no light, when she sights it.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Renukaji,

Please refer to your post #1 above and refer to the original thread in the scholarly section itself for my reply. Thank you.

 

[sravna]

The perception of the mind which is in ignorance is overpowering over the truth and causes it to not perceive the truth. It has its own version of "truth" based on its experiences.

Similarly snake is perceived instead of the rope because of the darkness.

In both the cases , experiences are real but reality is not perceived.

 

[renuka]

In some cases, either due to earlier experience or who is hypervigilant, pay attention to the nature of the object(rope) every time they see an object similar to curvy/striped snake. They are right then sure of the danger or not. Then, they move on.

There are very mindful/aware of the sorroundings, including materialists, can scan the object with its associated properties. These people do that as an habit/personality, but not to panic.

So, the frontal cortex (analytic brain) works first before coming to any random conclusion or panic. Subconsious mind/emotional brain works with extreme experiences of suffering or happiness and triggers the panic signal, which is an assistant to the analytical brain.

Dear Govinda ji,

Fair enough but in an acute situation the analytical capacity might not come into action right away.

For example ..I have this situation from time to time since I was a child where my dream state overlaps into my waking state..that is when I am just waking up my mind retains the images of my dream state and I "see" my dream right in front of me in wake state with eyes wide open.

This is called Hypnagogic state of consciousness which is not really an abnormality..its normal for some individuals.

Not everyone gets this..but imagine as a child waking up seeing people in front of you..scary images in front of you or anything ranging from a spider web to a flower or a colorful image.Images can last from 10 seconds to even 1 minute.

The first reaction is to scream..then those image disappears and no one believes that you saw stuff.

You develop fear to sleep not knowing that its just an overlap of dream and awake state.

Only when I become an adult and having read about this phenomenon..I do not fear what see anymore when I get this hypnagogic state of consciousness and in fact learned to enjoy it..its like watching your dream become a movie for you in the wake state.

The analytical mind did not know what it was seeing till it read information about this state.

So the first response of the mind/brain is always a certain amount of fear of the unknown till it knows what it is seeing.

 

[renuka]

The perception of the mind which is in ignorance is overpowering over the truth and causes it to not perceive the truth. It has its own version of "truth" based on its experiences.

So that means its the truth anyways..whether its the actual version or an individual version..so what is untruth then?

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

When one sees the rope in the dark (ignorance) the experiences of seeing the snake is evoked. There are two aspects here. The truth that one is experiencing the seeing of a snake is not denied.But if one is able to see through the experiences and perceive it cannot be the snake but a rope he see through the veil of maya or darkness

Untruth/Relative truth - Wrong interpretation of experiences - It is a snake
Truth - Right interpretation of experiences - It is a rope

 

[auh]

It doesnt matter what we think about the object in the dark, and it could be anything depending on our experience and graphics of our vision; it would always be wrong, and to be revealed (?) when the darkness is removed.

 

[a-TB]

I wonder who the first fellow was (assume it was a male) who actually looked at a rope and thought it is a snake.
Wonder when ropes got made historically

 

[renuka]

I wonder who the first fellow was (assume it was a male) who actually looked at a rope and thought it is a snake.
Wonder when ropes got made historically

It was surely a male..no doubt about that..but don't ask me why I think so!LOL

 

[sangom]

It was surely a male..no doubt about that..but don't ask me why I think so!LOL

On the contrary, in historical times, females would have been equally concerned with snakes, probably they were in search of, while the males simply knew! Is that scenario not possible? There is even a Tamil proverb which goes, வேலீலெ எழஞ்ச பாம்பெ எடுத்து மடீலெ கெட்டிண்டாளாம் (velīle eḻañca pāmpe eṭuttu maṭīle keṭṭiṇṭāḷām)" meaning 'put the snake which was crawling along the fence, into one's own lap' and I was told by a very reliable source that the word "maDi" is a stand-up for another word!

 

[B V RAAGHAVAN]

Namaskarams,

Two persons, one is well educated and the other is uneducated, were walking on the road side by side. It was pitch dark. Both simultaneously put their leg on a spongy thing on the road. The uneducated just rubbed his feet on the side grass and walked away. But the educated wanted to see what it was and put his finger on his feet and smell it. He found out that it was cow dung. So the educated got it in three places but the uneducated just understood what it was and rubbed his feet on the grass and walked away. Whether it is a snake or rope just skip it and go ahead on your way. what all you see through your outer eyes are all not real. See in your inner soul and try to find out what it is and what you are.

Anbuden
Adiyen

 

[Govinda]

Dear Govinda ji,

Fair enough but in an acute situation the analytical capacity might not come into action right away.

So the first response of the mind/brain is always a certain amount of fear of the unknown till it knows what it is seeing.

Fair enough too! Renuka...

The wrong emotional and analytical components present mutually exclusive events like two-sides of a coin, one taking precedence over
the another. But, they are actually inter-linked and inversely-proportional, the increase of one decreases the other.

The consciousness (our overall understanding) that we individually have, is comprised of two components :
1. Right knowledge/Intellect - that does not cause any fear/doubts and
2. Ignorance/Avidya - experiences that we assume as right/true, lack of complete information (unknowns), biased information, fears, emotions..

Depending on the amount of level of Right Knowledge (with analytical ability) over the emotional (unknowns/fears/emotions), we react to situations in the conscious/waking state. During waking state, all parts of our brain work in an integrated manner.

Though each cortex/part of the brain processes each sensory input (sight, hear, touch/pain, taste), they are processed to-gether in the Frontal cortex(analytical/reasoning/working brain) and makes a final conclusion. Before these sensory inputs are analyzed in the Frontal brain, these sensory inputs, go through the mid brain relay station - wi-fi connector - called Thalamus. This thalamus on the other hand/side interacts with the hormonal/emotional/limbic system - called the hypo-thalamus that activate/inhibit the hormones, amygdala - flight/fight response and, motor systems/spinalcord. The frontal brain gives the conclusion to the Thalamus, which triggers the alert/emotional systems. In case of complex situations, how we react (WILL) to situations are also dependent on our EGO.

If someone has anxiety/emotional issues, the reasons may be the Frontal cortex works on neuro-transmitters (poor nutrition, damage) and not learning/educating oneself thus not making more neuron connection/pathways. The problem with the limbic system is so similar (poor nutrition, constant stress/pear-pressure/vigilance/fear/exposure to threat) that damages the hypo-thalamus. our scriptures advised us to be non-violent in all sensory inputs. These days, media exposes so many violent images/information to the public - news, internet, video games etc. With more information, knowledge(experience/reasoning) one can overcome these emotional issues. That is why nutritional regime (saatvika/healthy foods) and CBT/Exposure/meditation therapies(discussions, learning, practice) are helpful.

Coming back to consciousness, our nervous system stores all the sensory inputs, our thoughts that we process. The unresolved, unknown , the incomplete information that we get haunts our frontal brain, that cannot produce a right conclusion. We come to some conclusion, to settle down the issues or problems. Plus, the societal/ familial situations and other obstacles affect our free will. These, plus the emotions are stored in our sub-conscious mind. The more and more we come to light of knowledge, our attributive (knowledge/nature of the world, theory of mind etc.) consciousness expands and these emotionally based ignorance will subside. Thus, we move towards calmness, yogi, jnani kind.

Plus, when we are asleep, I read somewhere, these latent or incomplete sensory inputs in our brain stem, props up and analyzed using the frontal brain, make some maps and fills up stories to give conclusions, but the motor/brain is inactive, so the emotional brain throws such fearful or fancy dreams may be .

Edit:
Renuka, looking for your opinion. My reply was not well organized, I just threw info. to complete the picture.

 

[renuka]

Fair enough too! Renuka...

The wrong emotional and analytical components present mutually exclusive events like two-sides of a coin, one taking precedence over
the another. But, they are actually inter-linked and inversely-proportional, the increase of one decreases the other.

The consciousness (our overall understanding) that we individually have, is comprised of two components :
1. Right knowledge/Intellect - that does not cause any fear/doubts and
2. Ignorance/Avidya - experiences that we assume as right/true, lack of complete information (unknowns), biased information, fears, emotions..

Depending on the amount of level of Right Knowledge (with analytical ability) over the emotional (unknowns/fears/emotions), we react to situations in the conscious/waking state. During waking state, all parts of our brain work in an integrated manner.

Though each cortex/part of the brain processes each sensory input (sight, hear, touch/pain, taste), they are processed to-gether in the Frontal cortex(analytical/reasoning/working brain) and makes a final conclusion. Before these sensory inputs are analyzed in the Frontal brain, these sensory inputs, go through the mid brain relay station - wi-fi connector - called Thalamus. This thalamus on the other hand/side interacts with the hormonal/emotional/limbic system - called the hypo-thalamus that activate/inhibit the hormones, amygdala - flight/fight response and, motor systems/spinalcord. The frontal brain gives the conclusion to the Thalamus, which triggers the alert/emotional systems. In case of complex situations, how we react (WILL) to situations are also dependent on our EGO.

If someone has anxiety/emotional issues, the reasons may be the Frontal cortex works on neuro-transmitters (poor nutrition, damage) and not learning/educating oneself thus not making more neuron connection/pathways. The problem with the limbic system is so similar (poor nutrition, constant stress/pear-pressure/vigilance/fear/exposure to threat) that damages the hypo-thalamus. our scriptures advised us to be non-violent in all sensory inputs. These days, media exposes so many violent images/information to the public - news, internet, video games etc. With more information, knowledge(experience/reasoning) one can overcome these emotional issues. That is why nutritional regime (saatvika/healthy foods) and CBT/Exposure/meditation therapies(discussions, learning, practice) are helpful.

Coming back to consciousness, our nervous system stores all the sensory inputs, our thoughts that we process. The unresolved, unknown , the incomplete information that we get haunts our frontal brain, that cannot produce a right conclusion. We come to some conclusion, to settle down the issues or problems. Plus, the societal/ familial situations and other obstacles affect our free will. These, plus the emotions are stored in our sub-conscious mind. The more and more we come to light of knowledge, our attributive (knowledge/nature of the world, theory of mind etc.) consciousness expands and these emotionally based ignorance will subside. Thus, we move towards calmness, yogi, jnani kind.

Plus, when we are asleep, I read somewhere, these latent or incomplete sensory inputs in our brain stem, props up and analyzed using the frontal brain, make some maps and fills up stories to give conclusions, but the motor/brain is inactive, so the emotional brain throws such fearful or fancy dreams may be .

Edit:
Renuka, looking for your opinion. My reply was not well organized, I just threw info. to complete the picture.

Dear Govinda,

Came to work today after a holiday for Eid Ul Adha..so my brain is still foggy cos once having had a holiday it takes a while for my brain to switch to 'working" mode.

The function of brain as mapped out by you in your reply ..that I would not add anything further cos that is what is generally understood in science even though to a great extent the mind is left out of it.


I would just like to comment about this:

The consciousness (our overall understanding) that we individually have, is comprised of two components :
1. Right knowledge/Intellect - that does not cause any fear/doubts and
2. Ignorance/Avidya - experiences that we assume as right/true, lack of complete information (unknowns), biased information, fears, emotions..

Is there actually anything called Right Knowledge?

I am starting to think there is no such thing as right knowledge or wrong knowledge.

It just that when an a reaction to an action becomes favorable we call it Right and when its not favorable we call it Wrong or Ignorance.

Desire still forms the substratum here to decide so called Right from so called Wrong.

What if there is no desire...a very rare state..lets say hypothetically there is no desire..how do we classify actions/reactions then?

There would be no right or wrong when there is no desire..there would only be input and output.

So personally I feel the classification of Right Knowledge and Avidya is something I might not want to subscribe anymore.

I do understand that religious text do talk about Right Knowledge and Avidya but why divide everything into polar opposites?

Even religious text still preach duality while speaking about Non Duality..it could be for description purposes that a state of non duality is hard to imagine but if we choose to just view everything as inputs and outputs there is no acute need to search for right and wrong anymore in our existence.

What is right? What is wrong?

Who knows?

No school of thought fully agree with each other...if there is a definite right and definite wrong there would not be so much differences in various school of thoughts.

Since there are multiple rights that means there are multiple questions...and some humans have chosen only one question to answer and started preaching that Q and A as the gospel truth.

In other words..no one really knows the full question paper.

So what seems apparently right might not even be so..so is there a right? Nope..there is not.

Right knowledge too is finally a 'delusion'.

Then what is Ignorance?

When right knowledge itself might not exist..need I say more about Ignorance?

That is why Ignorance is Bliss..cos its better to be blissfully unaware and simply exist instead of imagining there is right knowledge and delude ourselves.

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Dr Renu

Hi.

It's been a while since I peeped in.

Now if you see a snake and call it a rope or the other way around , this is nothing but PAREIDOLIA.

Cheers

Yay Yem

 

[sangom]

The "snake & rope" analogy is relevant only when we consider the 'jagat' around us with what its actual position is. Otherwise, there is only the snake (or the rope) and there is no scope for any confusion.

 

[Govinda]

Hello Anand,

Now if you see a snake and call it a rope or the other way around , this is nothing but PAREIDOLIA.

Cheers

Yay Yem

PAREIDLIA (referred wiki) is mind perceiving some patterns when it actually does not exist. The made up case of rope/snake is adhyasa, super-imposition of one thing on another.

 

[Govinda]

The "snake & rope" analogy is relevant only when we consider the 'jagat' around us with what its actual position is. Otherwise, there is only the snake (or the rope) and there is no scope for any confusion.

Yes sir,

Either rope or snake object existed there (as real). Why do we blame the object and declare it as illusion, when in reality,
we misunderstand the object as other? Plus, this example is a bogus/made-up example to prove the world is illusory.

But, the more important point is how would one perceive things, evaluate the situation and decide an action. This is knowledge/cognition.

 

[Govinda]

Hi renuka,

Thanks for replying.

It just that when an a reaction to an action becomes favorable we call it Right and when its not favorable we call it Wrong or Ignorance.
There would be no right or wrong when there is no desire..there would only be input and output.

Right/true knowledge is what is obtained through clear understanding, proper experience, right reasoning and executing with clear conscience [without ego/desire] .

An action itself is initiated due to one's duty or desire. I educate my son is an action (based on duty/desire), but if
just act without checking his capabilities or my abilities, then such an action is lead by ignorance/Emotion as the
outcome is futile and causes distress to everyone involved. I cook for my family to be health and enjoy food, and if there
are negative reviews, then I need to accept and make changes. Such disposition is the form of right knowledge/saatvika
jnanam.

When an action itself and the outcome of an action are based on Intellect (proper reasoning) and decision based on goodness/saatvika guna meaning purely on conscience/dharma, then such actions will improve one's jnAnam further
and expands one knowledge about oneself and the reality outside.

Even if the knowledge (actions, its nature, consequences) are presented to us, and we still choose an action that is favourable
to us, but not dharmic in reality, we chose this based on our DESIRES. Such actions has its own consequences/karma,
and we will learn the hard way. E.g smoking. -smoker know it is bad for them or others.

There are so many teachers who are not desirous of making money, but still want to impart education. They are
still going to impart the knowledge (as much right as they know). There are so many service oriented people,
who do "right" things needed for the needy, even though they have no desire for profit/income.

Many patients come to you because they are sure of your knowledge (right/proven) about ailments that you will help/heal them. Else, there is an incomplete understanding/ignorance about some factors, , you do re-evaluations and work to correct them. So, as knowledge expands, actions get better, fears/emotions (ignorance) subsides. So, how is Right (true experiential/logical) knowledge a delusion?

Ignorance is not a bliss, when we have problems at hand. We always wish, we had known earlier, better.

 

[sangom]

Yes sir,

Either rope or snake object existed there (as real). Why do we blame the object and declare it as illusion, when in reality,
we misunderstand the object as other? Plus, this example is a bogus/made-up example to prove the world is illusory.

But, the more important point is how would one perceive things, evaluate the situation and decide an action. This is knowledge/cognition.

R v blaming the object? No, we r only referring to the knowledge part. Even that is not applicable while discussinng only the perceived world. Whether this is bogus/ made-up example is also not relevant unless and until you have reached a certain level, much like knowing the square root of minus one in Mathematics. Primary school kids should not burden themselves with that.
Note: this is in no way to belittle other philosophies, please.

 

[sravna]

Yes sir,

Either rope or snake object existed there (as real). Why do we blame the object and declare it as illusion, when in reality,
we misunderstand the object as other? Plus, this example is a bogus/made-up example to prove the world is illusory.

But, the more important point is how would one perceive things, evaluate the situation and decide an action. This is knowledge/cognition.

Dear Shri Govinda,

I do not think there is any proving here. It is an analogy to help understand a main tenet of advaita which is: when we are in ignorance, we do not interpret our experiences correctly, which IMO is very logical.

 

[Govinda]

R v blaming the object? No, we r only referring to the knowledge part. Even that is not applicable while discussinng only the perceived world. Whether this is bogus/ made-up example is also not relevant unless and until you have reached a certain level, much like knowing the square root of minus one in Mathematics. Primary school kids should not burden themselves with that. Note: this is in no way to belittle other philosophies, please.

Knowledge part of who? the observer of the object-world(snake/rope)? Where is need for primary school or square root or numbers, if the world is illusory? Anyway, "the world is going to present illusory information, and nothing is right or wrong", would be the conclusion, one arrives from the rope/snake analogy. Then how is one going to step further and attempt to get knowledge and make informed decisions.

The snake looks like a rope, because of its curvature/flexibility of muscles. Such special feature (or property) is helpful for the snake to slither, raise up to sting or catch prey. The similar feature of the rope, is useful for others to bend and make a knot and tie it to the well to draw water. This is the nature of those objects (rope or snake). Plus, snake is not going to hurt anyone, unless it senses danger or hungry.

The objects are real, their nature are real and there is knowledge/Info. about them. The observer may not have these clear understanding and has mis-perception. So, more knowledge about the nature of reality will help him clear those mis-conceptions/ignorance.

P.S: There is nothing to belittle, as per advaita, those emotions are illusory too. And there is no concept of jiva, the pain or suffering due to belittling is also illusory.