The Lost Tribe of Timbuktu..the rope and the snake.

[renuka]

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Hi renuka,

Thanks for replying.



Right/true knowledge is what is obtained through clear understanding, proper experience, right reasoning and executing with clear conscience [without ego/desire] .

An action itself is initiated due to one's duty or desire. I educate my son is an action (based on duty/desire), but if
just act without checking his capabilities or my abilities, then such an action is lead by ignorance/Emotion as the
outcome is futile and causes distress to everyone involved. I cook for my family to be health and enjoy food, and if there
are negative reviews, then I need to accept and make changes. Such disposition is the form of right knowledge/saatvika
jnanam.

When an action itself and the outcome of an action are based on Intellect (proper reasoning) and decision based on goodness/saatvika guna meaning purely on conscience/dharma, then such actions will improve one's jnAnam further
and expands one knowledge about oneself and the reality outside.

Even if the knowledge (actions, its nature, consequences) are presented to us, and we still choose an action that is favourable
to us, but not dharmic in reality, we chose this based on our DESIRES. Such actions has its own consequences/karma,
and we will learn the hard way. E.g smoking. -smoker know it is bad for them or others.

There are so many teachers who are not desirous of making money, but still want to impart education. They are
still going to impart the knowledge (as much right as they know). There are so many service oriented people,
who do "right" things needed for the needy, even though they have no desire for profit/income.

Many patients come to you because they are sure of your knowledge (right/proven) about ailments that you will help/heal them. Else, there is an incomplete understanding/ignorance about some factors, , you do re-evaluations and work to correct them. So, as knowledge expands, actions get better, fears/emotions (ignorance) subsides. So, how is Right (true experiential/logical) knowledge a delusion?

Ignorance is not a bliss, when we have problems at hand. We always wish, we had known earlier, better.

Dear Govinda,

I still prefer to call anything as information.

Technically there is NO "Right" knowledge.

I can give you a simple example...since you touched upon patients seeing a doctor.

Previously when Dengue fever was not fully understood a low platelet count was thought to be the cause of death.

But now with new research the main reason for Dengue deaths is becos of plasma leakage and a high Pack Cell Volume that is "internal dehydration" which eventually leads to a death.

So the treatment for Dengue has changed..the emphasis is on Intravenous hydration more than any Platelet transfusion.

So "right knowledge" itself is subject to change.

The earth was thought to be flat..it was 'right knowledge" then till it was proved to be round which is "right' for now.

Therefore there is no "right knowledge" in the real sense..it can the best be called "current information till proved otherwise".

I feel even religious school of thoughts should adopt this thinking...that everything is "current information till proved otherwise"....but that is not the case..each school of thought is cock sure their info is the gospel truth.

One school of thought preaches Vishnu us supreme..another says Krishna is supreme..another says Shiva....we have Advaita,Vishisthadvaita,Dvaita etc...never ending story but yet everything is supposed to be "right knowledge".

It is a delusion to think that any information is Right Knowledge be its mundane knowledge or even religious knowledge.

Coming to people who are so called selfless..wanting to impart stuff to the world.

Frankly speaking its hard to know what is in their mind. Some even desire to be the most selfless or most humble person.

It could be even a Karmic debt that person is 'paying' becos of having taken something from others in a previous life.

A robber is a previous birth might be born as a philanthropist in this present life to 'give' back what he took from others.

An extremist of any kind..be it good or bad always has some untold story.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Shri Govinda,

I do not think there is any proving here. It is an analogy to help understand a main tenet of advaita which is: when we are in ignorance, we do not interpret our experiences correctly, which IMO is very logical.

Dear Govinda,

I still prefer to call anything as information.

Technically there is NO "Right" knowledge.

I can give you a simple example...since you touched upon patients seeing a doctor.

Previously when Dengue fever was not fully understood a low platelet count was thought to be the cause of death.

But now with new research the main reason for Dengue deaths is becos of plasma leakage and a high Pack Cell Volume that is "internal dehydration" which eventually leads to a death.

So the treatment for Dengue has changed..the emphasis is on Intravenous hydration more than any Platelet transfusion.

So "right knowledge" itself is subject to change.

The earth was thought to be flat..it was 'right knowledge" then till it was proved to be round which is "right' for now.

Therefore there is no "right knowledge" in the real sense..it can the best be called "current information till proved otherwise".

I feel even religious school of thoughts should adopt this thinking...that everything is "current information till proved otherwise"....but that is not the case..each school of thought is cock sure their info is the gospel truth.

One school of thought preaches Vishnu us supreme..another says Krishna is supreme..another says Shiva....we have Advaita,Vishisthadvaita,Dvaita etc...never ending story but yet everything is supposed to be "right knowledge".

It is a delusion to think that any information is Right Knowledge be its mundane knowledge or even religious knowledge.

Coming to people who are so called selfless..wanting to impart stuff to the world.

Frankly speaking its hard to know what is in their mind. Some even desire to be the most selfless or most humble person.

It could be even a Karmic debt that person is 'paying' becos of having taken something from others in a previous life.

A robber is a previous birth might be born as a philanthropist in this present life to 'give' back what he took from others.

An extremist of any kind..be it good or bad always has some untold story.

Renukaji you said it. I am on Android and so could not write more. Mo

 

[sangom]

Knowledge part of who? the observer of the object-world(snake/rope)? Where is need for primary school or square root or numbers, if the world is illusory? Anyway, "the world is going to present illusory information, and nothing is right or wrong", would be the conclusion, one arrives from the rope/snake analogy. Then how is one going to step further and attempt to get knowledge and make informed decisions.

The snake looks like a rope, because of its curvature/flexibility of muscles. Such special feature (or property) is helpful for the snake to slither, raise up to sting or catch prey. The similar feature of the rope, is useful for others to bend and make a knot and tie it to the well to draw water. This is the nature of those objects (rope or snake). Plus, snake is not going to hurt anyone, unless it senses danger or hungry.

The objects are real, their nature are real and there is knowledge/Info. about them. The observer may not have these clear understanding and has mis-perception. So, more knowledge about the nature of reality will help him clear those mis-conceptions/ignorance.

P.S: There is nothing to belittle, as per advaita, those emotions are illusory too. And there is no concept of jiva, the pain or suffering due to belittling is also illusory.

"More knowledge or jnana about reality" is the crucial point. Up to a time, ordinarily people will tend to take the perceived world as the true reality. Mankind has spent billions of years under that notion. So, there is nothing wrong in continuing like that. Actually that is the only way possible for humanity as well.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

"Current information until proved otherwise" is only applicable to the Science as it adopts the method of experimentation and concluding. Spiritual luminaries are sure about what they say because the thoughts hit them as truth. It is how they are perceived. The problem is a not everybody sees the truth and so there are disagreements and different "right knowledge" or "current information".

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

"Current information until proved otherwise" is only applicable to the Science as it adopts the method of experimentation and concluding. Spiritual luminaries are sure about what they say because the thoughts hit them as truth. It is how they are perceived. The problem is a not everybody sees the truth and so there are disagreements and different "right knowledge" or "current information".

dear Sravna,

Spiritual luminaries are sure about what they say becos the thoughts hit them as truth?
In that case..why there is multiple truths?

So will you agree with the Abrahamic view of God and there is no rebirth theory and there is eternal heaven and eternal hell?

After all spiritual luminaries existed in every part of this world and each brought their version of the truth.

So who is right?

Why is the so called Truth different?

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

The truth is all the different spiritual knowledge can be reconciled. Advaita sums it up aptly. There is only one reality. What appears as different is not so. There is always a rational explanation for it. People are allowed to choose different paths for acquiring knowledge. I would say if all the spiritual heads that lived sat together they would easily come to a consensus.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

I would say if all the spiritual heads that lived sat together they would easily come to a consensus.

Nope..I do not think so..they could have all killed each other.

Sravna..religion is the domain for those who want to exert influence on others.

No one wants their 'influence' reduced to nothing.

I have a feeling you think that "spirituality' exists.

Time to get real I feel.

 

[sravna]

Nope..I do not think so..they could have all killed each other.

Sravna..religion is the domain for those who want to exert influence on others.

No one wants their 'influence' reduced to nothing.

I have a feeling you think that "spirituality' exists.

Time to get real I feel.

Dear Renuka,

I do not want to say anything else now than what I have already said. Lets wait. I think I may be able to convince some people about it soon.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

I do not want to say anything else now than what I have already said. Lets wait. I think I may be able to convince some people about it soon.

Dear Sravna,

The sun 'rises' daily becos the earth orbits around the sun..this we witness daily..so no convincing needed.

But if you are planning to convince people that spirituality exists that shows it does not exists in a natural state.

BTW Sravna have you ever thought of just existing without the need to be 'spiritual'?

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

The sun 'rises' daily becos the earth orbits around the sun..this we witness daily..so no convincing needed.

But if you are planning to convince people that spirituality exists that shows it does not exists in a natural state.

BTW Sravna have you ever thought of just existing without the need to be 'spiritual'?

Dear Renuka,

what we see through sense organs we are sure about. But we cannot be sure about the inner self. Renuka, practising "spirituality" basically is existing with values. So it is desirable.

 

[sangom]

"Spirituality" is a hoax, I will say. What we perceive through our sense organs and interpret through our mind & intellect, alone can be conveyed to others. The "spirit" inside is nirguna as per advaita and is only a silent witness. But some people, due to force of circumstances or things like that, may come to believe that they have a highly "developed" spirit and so they can perform miracles even! It must be due to overdose of mythological stories heard and assimilated during childhood.

Sravna himself tried to use his "spiritual" powers to bring down Chennai temperatures during May-June, but hardly anything happened! Yet, he still harbours many grandiose ideas about his imagined spiritual powers! He must first utilise the powers, if they really exist, to provide food to the starving poor in Chennai or Bengaluru, wherever he lives. That will be a good step; he can join the Robin Hood's Warriors, if the spiritual powers are not of any use.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

The spiritual power is not imagined. It is of help in almost any health problem. There is hard evidence for it. But I am still trying to understand its scope and how it works. I will keep you updated.

 

[mkrishna100]

Sravna himself tried to use his "spiritual" powers to bring down Chennai temperatures during May-June, but hardly anything happened! Yet, he still harbours many grandiose ideas about his imagined spiritual powers! He must first utilise the powers, if they really exist, to provide food to the starving poor in Chennai or Bengaluru, wherever he lives.

Food is not that much of a problem as almost all Temples and spiritual insititutions daily do some form of poor feeding . I would like those people who have spiritual power to first provide lot of toilets that are well maintained ( they can even charge a nomimal sum if they want to ) so that people do not urinate on the roads and walls

 

[renuka]

Dear Shri Sangom,

The spiritual power is not imagined. It is of help in almost any health problem. There is hard evidence for it. But I am still trying to understand its scope and how it works. I will keep you updated.

Dear Sravna,


I do not deny that some people have certain unexplained ability and surely its not imagination either.

But in your own words you say that you are still trying to understand its scope and how it works.

If you are in this stage where you have not yet understood the "mechanics' of your ability, the best is to avoid using it for helping others.

It could have potential unseen harmful effects on you or the people you help.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,


I do not deny that some people have certain unexplained ability and surely its not imagination either.

But in your own words you say that you are still trying to understand its scope and how it works.

If you are in this stage where you have not yet understood the "mechanics' of your ability, the best is to avoid using it for helping others.

It could have potential unseen harmful effects on you or the people you help.

Yes Renuka you are right . I agree with you on this. That is the reason I do not advise the patients to stop the western medicines but treat them when they are on it. But since I am able to figure out that it does not have side effects at least, I use it along with other conventional help being used.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

Based on the evidence I have and the hypothesis I will be proposing, I will bring out laws that are beyond the physical laws. I will talk more about it once the clarity improves and the paper is accepted.

 

[sravna]

Food is not that much of a problem as almost all Temples and spiritual insititutions daily do some form of poor feeding . I would like those people who have spiritual power to first provide lot of toilets that are well maintained ( they can even charge a nomimal sum if they want to ) so that people do not urinate on the roads and walls

Dear Shri mkrishna,

I am working on such problems. It seems spiritual energy starts working at higher levels first and so in the case of problems that require details to be fulfilled, it would take a longer period to get solved than other problems. Health problems since related to just a person gets solved more easily compared to other problems. But as the dynamics related to a problem increases, it takes longer to solve. I have taken up the following problems and I have mentioned the time period when it is likely that a solution appears

Starvation and health of the population ( 1-3 years)
Cleanliness, Pollution etc (1-3 years)
Crimes, violence, Terrorism control(1-3 years)
Economy of the country (2-4 years)
Prominence in Science, Technology(5 plus years)
High Quality of living and a Super Power(Around 10 years)

I would think that many of the solutions would emerge in a logical way by the participation and contributions from a large number of people.

 

[prasad1]

I would think that many of the solutions would emerge in a logical way by the participation and contributions from a large number of people.

see the bold word.

 

[Govinda]

Dear Govinda,

I still prefer to call anything as information.

Technically there is NO "Right" knowledge.

I can give you a simple example...since you touched upon patients seeing a doctor.

Previously when Dengue fever was not fully understood a low platelet count was thought to be the cause of death.

But now with new research the main reason for Dengue deaths is becos of plasma leakage and a high Pack Cell Volume that is "internal dehydration" which eventually leads to a death.

So the treatment for Dengue has changed..the emphasis is on Intravenous hydration more than any Platelet transfusion.

So "right knowledge" itself is subject to change.

The earth was thought to be flat..it was 'right knowledge" then till it was proved to be round which is "right' for now.

Therefore there is no "right knowledge" in the real sense..it can the best be called "current information till proved otherwise"..

Dr., the knowledge, nature of dengue virus does not change. Only we need to understand the nature of the object/problem we are studying. In that case, as our senses are not complete like our eyes cannot detect X-rays, UV- rays etc. In such case, the previous authority on such research is relied upon. The previous research can be wrong too in the dengue case, and more research by the second set of researchers was put into place. A different example, antibiotics kills the specific bacteria, and people developed fatigue etc. A subsequent research, may be with more tools, more experiences, a more insightful scientist came to found that antibiotics infact kills even the good bacteria, hence a dose of probiotics should be added. So Knowledge at every instance kills the mis-understanding and substitutes/replaces the ignorance. So, what I wanted to convey is more understanding the nature of the reality/and problems, will bring our ignorance to the light.

I feel even religious school of thoughts should adopt this thinking...that everything is "current information till proved otherwise"....but that is not the case..each school of thought is cock sure their info is the gospel truth

No one denied that, infact for Ramanuja, 'attributive' knowledge - the knowledge about the reality- the world, matter, other people, hence finally knowledge about our self - changes as we get more experiences. That is exactly, Ramanuja said, we are a conscious subject - meaning we are already a Knower [like tiger, thief and a yogi as per Vedanta]. But, each one of them have different levels of 'attibutive' knowledge about the reality, that is why we have different levels of consciousness.

One school of thought preaches Vishnu us supreme..another says Krishna is supreme..another says Shiva....we have Advaita,Vishisthadvaita,Dvaita etc...never ending story but yet everything is supposed to be "right knowledge".
It is a delusion to think that any information is Right Knowledge be its mundane knowledge or even religious knowledge.

You are right about that. But, such distinction would bring about the discussion on the nature/knowledge of Brahman. Unless we discuss/analyze that, we can't say why they think so.

 

[Govinda]

Nope..I do not think so..they could have all killed each other.

Sravna..religion is the domain for those who want to exert influence on others.

No one wants their 'influence' reduced to nothing.

I have a feeling you think that "spirituality' exists.

Time to get real I feel.

Religion is practiced by people of various knowledge levels. Some may be just emotional for whom, any mistakes, errors in actions/rituals is a sin, as if God is out there 'ONLY' to get us. If so, then GOD would not have a creation that is so stable with the idea of gravity, with different kinds of sensory objecs to use/experience(enjoy or suffer) and learn. But for an intellectual , such errors are just process of learning and growing up. So, we need to really understand according to the philosophical side of Vedanta. Our rishis/sages were smart enough to incorporate them as part of daily life/culture, but as the knowledge is not carried forth as logically/analytically as intended, we ended up in differences, confusion, doubts and even blame the original upanishadic authors or Brahmans for chauvinism. So, we really need to stop being emotional about any of the philosopher heros, and strictly evaluate their arguments from our experiences.

 

[Govinda]

Sangom sir,

"More knowledge or jnana about reality" is the crucial point. Up to a time, ordinarily people will tend to take the perceived world as the true reality. Mankind has spent billions of years under that notion. So, there is nothing wrong in continuing like that. Actually that is the only way possible for humanity as well.

That is one of the sure ways to begin with, else would not have had many lives, and finally come to be born as a human, that too in India, with such philosophical background. The western world has lot of philosophers and scientist, but they could not come to the level of understanding in the Upanishads (which was just intuitive and philosophical rather experimental/empirical). As renuka had mentioned, about the right knowledge is transient, as it keep varying. Though the right understanding/knowledge is a variant it can expand/increase only with a support of a highly authoritative knowledge as our perception/experience can lack subtleties. Only Vedanta can give shape to all that empirical knowledge.

 

[Govinda]

Food is not that much of a problem as almost all Temples and spiritual insititutions daily do some form of poor feeding . I would like those people who have spiritual power to first provide lot of toilets that are well maintained ( they can even charge a nomimal sum if they want to ) so that people do not urinate on the roads and walls

Hi Krishna We are still in the beginning stages to understand 'knowledge' - subset of consciousness. And with the discussion on 'Karma', we can see why beginning from the top hierarchy of politicians we are so selfish.

 

[Govinda]

Dear Govinda,

But now with new research the main reason for Dengue deaths is becos of plasma leakage and a high Pack Cell Volume that is "internal dehydration" which eventually leads to a death.

It could be even a Karmic debt that person is 'paying' becos of having taken something from others in a previous life.

A robber is a previous birth might be born as a philanthropist in this present life to 'give' back what he took from others.

There are two important conclusions we can arrive from you post. Though it appears to be sadistic, it is more of a realization about the nature of reality on matter and people. 1. The life of scientist is lost in accruing information - matter - kinds of materials and beings are vast in the nature, we have been researching only for about 1000 years, and as the sophistication of tools increase, the research/info. on he details will take more and more indepths. There would be so many inter-connections, dependencies, contradictions etc. Hence countless years of lives would be needed for information accrual. So, we need to stick with only the concepts about them that is helpful for our living and final-goal. Science is not the end-solution to our goal of Self-realization.
2. Philanthropy/service - is also not the end-solution for the realization of that big picture/Brahman-Moksha. Each jiva/being is there in this life/world to accrue experiences to finally gain jnanam and shed their karmas. So, if you give food to the hungry, he would end up seeking more basic needs. once they are met, they want experience the comforts of life etc. and your service is not to bring to jnanam right way. Over-time, you are going to get fed-up, see such service is futile, unless, such service is part of your realization like some sanyAsis etc. So, philanthropy in the form of education esp. the values as proposed in the upanishdas, will only aid in your journey, else this would become an endless journey.

 

[Govinda]

"More knowledge or jnana about reality" is the crucial point. Up to a time, ordinarily people will tend to take the perceived world as the true reality. Mankind has spent billions of years under that notion. So, there is nothing wrong in continuing like that. Actually that is the only way possible for humanity as well.

Sangom sir, That is a common understanding. But sankara had handled many other concepts with that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhyasa It would be nice to know your views on this.

 

[renuka]

There are two important conclusions we can arrive from you post. Though it appears to be sadistic, it is more of a realization about the nature of reality on matter and people. 1. The life of scientist is lost in accruing information - matter - kinds of materials and beings are vast in the nature, we have been researching only for about 1000 years, and as the sophistication of tools increase, the research/info. on he details will take more and more indepths. There would be so many inter-connections, dependencies, contradictions etc. Hence countless years of lives would be needed for information accrual. So, we need to stick with only the concepts about them that is helpful for our living and final-goal. Science is not the end-solution to our goal of Self-realization.
2. Philanthropy/service - is also not the end-solution for the realization of that big picture/Brahman-Moksha. Each jiva/being is there in this life/world to accrue experiences to finally gain jnanam and shed their karmas. So, if you give food to the hungry, he would end up seeking more basic needs. once they are met, they want experience the comforts of life etc. and your service is not to bring to jnanam right way. Over-time, you are going to get fed-up, see such service is futile, unless, such service is part of your realization like some sanyAsis etc. So, philanthropy in the form of education esp. the values as proposed in the upanishdas, will only aid in your journey, else this would become an endless journey.

I think religion sort of teaches humans about some journey and makes everyone go into searching mode without just simply existing.

I feel there is no real journey finally.

There is no need to search neither is there are need to even feel we have found it..there is nothing to find either and nothing to achieve either.

For nothing at all we humans are made to seek and search to reach an imaginary state...for all we know this is the actual delusion.