The Rationale behind Karma Theory

[sravna]

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Karma theory says if you have done something positive in the past you reap the benefits for them and if you have done something negative in the past you pay the price for them. To many this is not unacceptable especially because the past usually means past lives. Not only many do not believe in re-births but also they think that punishing or rewarding one based on previous lives is not correct because people who are punished have to wonder what is it they have done wrong in the past and why are they being punished for something they are not even aware of?

First of all let us see the necessity of re-births. Re-births are necessary for the following reasons from the learning perspective of persons:

1) People have to undergo different experiences to make all the learning possible and only different circumstances will help in providing that
2) In addition to different environment , people have to possess different capabilities which is not possible without re-births
2) If people know they can live forever they would be not encouraged to learn

So it seems that the concept of re-births is a sound one if we assume that the learning of the souls is the ultimate goal

Is it also good that people do not remember their previous life experiences?Yes it is because if people would remember their previous life experiences they would for example understand directly why they are being punished or rewarded they would overlearn from their past experiences reducing considerably the possibility of complete learning i.e, learning by going through all the experiences.

Learning by discerning is the goal of karma and this is possible only in the way it is being meted out.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

I have a few questions for you.

1)If God had the power to "create" He would also have had the power to not "create".

Let me rephrase my words and replace the word Create with the word Manifest cos some might jump in saying quoting some text saying that only the ignorant and confused think there was a creation when everything is actually Unborn(Ajah).

So lets go back to my question rephrased as this:

If God had the power to manifest He would also have had the power to not manifest.

So why did He decide to manifest?

This is an important question that has been left unanswered.

So next question is :

1)If God decided to manifest..that means it was an Action(but yet He is said to be above actions and reactions and a silent witness)

Next question is:

1)Its the reaction to the action of manifestation of God that existence came into "being"..and the Law of Karma governs it...that is how it seems to be.

So what I want to know is..why the heck is everyone running around in circles for an action that was not even our decision to start with? I am using the word "our" here becos for all practical purposes if the Theory of Karma is still in action that means we are not yet above duality..hence the usage of the word 'Our" here is not wrong in my opinion.

BTW since it was God's decision as in Eko Ham Bahusyam.

So technically everything seems unfair.

Well some might say I am ignorant or confused or dont have a Guru but even then let me admit stupidity to seek an answer.

Let me end my post with this:

Karma the theory that no one really knows,
Has made fatalism grow and grow,
What about the fatalistic seed that sprouts?
So who confuses a man beyond doubt?

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

I have a few questions for you.

1)If God had the power to "create" He would also have had the power to not "create".

Let me rephrase my words and replace the word Create with the word Manifest cos some might jump in saying quoting some text saying that only the ignorant and confused think there was a creation when everything is actually Unborn(Ajah).

So lets go back to my question rephrased as this:

If God had the power to manifest He would also have had the power to not manifest.

So why did He decide to manifest?

This is an important question that has been left unanswered.

He did not chose to manifest. I think it should be viewed as a natural concomitance. Probably it
reflects the fact that bliss is being and seeing things in unification. So maybe reflecting what is not bliss is part of reality.

So next question is :

1)If God decided to manifest..that means it was an Action(but yet He is said to be above actions and reactions and a silent witness)

Advaita answers this through the concept of saguna brahman who thinks and acts

Next question is:

1)Its the reaction to the action of manifestation of God that existence came into "being"..and the Law of Karma governs it...that is how it seems to be.

So what I want to know is..why the heck is everyone running around in circles for an action that was not even our decision to start with?

My previous responses should answer this

Karma the theory that no one really knows,
Has made fatalism grow and grow,
What about the fatalistic seed that sprouts?
So who confuses a man beyond doubt?

It doesn't sow fatalistic seeds in all as all are not fated to believe in karma

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

For a long time I have been trying to fit stuff into my head and I twisted and turned my brains to accommodate the theory of Karma or even the concept of God to make it actually seem real and justified..just like what you are doing now.

Then I realized that this was a delusion like person who has been jilted but still trying to justify that her lover loves her.

Then I decided to let go of any concept to fill my mind..that apparent nothingness ..the void in my mind..is no void but its everything that I needed to know..that is "I can never ever actually know"!

I dont want to sound too poetical but my fingers chose to type so..I feel when we let go ..that is when we feel bliss..Ignorance is Indeed Bliss.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

I chose to respond because you wanted to know answers to certain questions. Ignorance is bliss only when you are not equipped to deal with the knowledge you gain.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

I chose to respond because you wanted to know answers to certain questions. Ignorance is bliss only when you are not equipped to deal with the knowledge you gain.

No problems..I dont mind hearing..my "ignorance is bliss" feeling is cyclical!..for all I know next week I might start seeking answers again and again and filling up my brains with stuff!LOL

 

[Jaykay767]

Karma theory leads to fatalism is not correct, this is the nonsense spread by the west. Again remember my earlier comment – question them as much as you will question an Indian…

If positive thoughts were to lead only to positive actions, then there should be no accidents like the one in Michael Schumacher, the sinking of Titanic, & the million other such events when these people were all very positive & enjoying their lives.

In-fact there are many studies that show most accidents happen when people are holidaying..

So when things are going very well, people should moderate their lives, be very careful, almost fearful about upcoming events…, that does not mean people have to be paranoid. But as they say, some level of fear (not too much) is the most useful tool for survival.

Brahman & Karma theory are a perfect explanation of our origins. So which-ever way you look at it, there has to be a “supreme force or energy” that led to the creation/existence of the Universe – we call this supreme force – Brahman/God etc…. Karma theory is just one of the laws of the Universe that governs our lives..

 

[sravna]

Again remember my earlier comment – question them as much as you will question an Indian…

Dear Jaykay,

Well said. I think the honeymoon period for the western thinking is over. They will find it more and more difficult in consistently explaining their thoughts in the future. I hope people especially in India realize that there are fundamental flaws in their thinking which are bound to be exposed soon and as Jaykay says they need to be questioned as seriously as we question Indian thinking.

 

[krish44]

renukaji
all this karma theories are meant for the poor and the have not to make them reconcile to their poor lifestyle and accept their bad quality of living by the rich with the

connivance of godmen. there is little or no basis for these theories . these poor and deprived are sold these theories to keep them from challenging the existent economic

order and ensure that do not rebel and destroy it. slightly better off quote these theories to justify their incapability and inability to change their own life by concrete

.action. the old quote these theories when ill treated by their daughter in laws. so cheer up . pl do not take it seriously.lol

 

[Jaykay767]

Most people think that “ritualism” does not make sense & they go on to make negative comments about religion & its various activities.

So why did “ritualism” come about ??

The reason why “ritualism” came about is to “mitigate”the “negative effects” of our past Karma. If you look at our Vedic texts, penance via meditation, intense devotion/Bakthi, rituals, fasting etc.., are some ways to overcome our past Karmic actions & lead to salvation.

So “rituals” are one of the secrets to overcoming the many negative impacts from Karma.. if you chant some of our mantras on a regular basis, you can see the difference, the life will become more stable, the ups & downs will reduce, etc… (obviously I don’t have a statistical study to substantiate this, but people can make their inferences based on their experience) – our ancestors believed in magical powers in these chants – that it can solve any “intractable problems”

Ignorance is bliss, but “willful ignorance” will lead to disaster – that I will not learn about ancient wisdom because it is hocus pocus & will do everything opposite to it - is very dangerous… and you can see how the west is suffering for its excesses..

 

[sarang]

Karma, rebirth and liberation are not theories, but basic tenets of indic religions.

 

[sravna]

I tried to argue that given that the ultimate goal for a soul is to learn and be liberated , then re-births make sense. Now let us address the heart of the way karma acts i.,e reaction to an action. The question is, is that the best way to make someone learn effectively? I think it is because you do something wrong and it has to be shown that it is not in your interest to do wrong. Because of a strong sense of physical self, people learn only when they are affected.

So in order to show that what you did was wrong , something needs to happen to you to make you realize that. Punishing you for all that you did in the same birth would make sense if the intensity of the action is very high so that a quick reaction discourages such further actions and stopping any chaos. That is why in Kali yuga the reactions are supposed to be faster. However there are deep and subtle flaws that are probably corrected at longer durations at the correct moment and so the reaction for an action may well be after a number of births. The point is the reaction needs to be there and it needs to be on you.

 

[renuka]

renukaji
all this karma theories are meant for the poor and the have not to make them reconcile to their poor lifestyle and accept their bad quality of living by the rich with the

connivance of godmen. there is little or no basis for these theories . these poor and deprived are sold these theories to keep them from challenging the existent economic

order and ensure that do not rebel and destroy it. slightly better off quote these theories to justify their incapability and inability to change their own life by concrete

.action. the old quote these theories when ill treated by their daughter in laws. so cheer up . pl do not take it seriously.lol

Dear Krishji,

I agree with what you wrote..hence I penned this down about Karma and all the theories of Religion!


The art of living is never taught,
The art of dying is the most sought,
Why live if death is all we seek?
A simple truth yet no answers to preach!


The mind is said to be left behind,
Brainless Deaddos is supposedly divine,
Only the empty can be filled,
With cold darkness that never reveals.

Is religion a propaganda to hide?
That what we think is always not right!
“Right” is faith that blinds the mind.
“Wrong” is everything else but blind.

 

[sravna]

Dear Krishji,

I agree with what you wrote..hence I penned this down about Karma and all the theories of Religion!


The art of living is never taught,
The art of dying is the most sought,
Why live if death is all we seek?
A simple truth yet no answers to preach!


The mind is said to be left behind,
Brainless Deaddos is supposedly divine,
Only the empty can be filled,
With cold darkness that never reveals.

Is religion a propaganda to hide?
That what we think is always not right!
“Right” is faith that blinds the mind.
“Wrong” is everything else but blind.

Dear Renuka,

Your poem could be turned against whatever you espouse . the only thing I can think of that will go against the notion of religion is the notion of importance of self.

the art of living is never taught - we think of self only and taught only to compete and not to share

the art of dying is most sought - we keep developing weapons both physical and mental that try to destroy others

why live if death is all we seek? - yes , Why?

a simple truth yet no answers to preach!

I really don't understand the second para

Is religion a propaganda to hide ?
that what we think is always not right ! - Yes if you replace the first line with " Is technology a way to hide?"

"Right" is faith that blinds the mind - faith need not be in religion alone it can be in one own self and be blind.

"wrong" is everything else but blind- Yes

 

[renuka]

I tried to argue that given that the ultimate goal for a soul is to learn and be liberated , then re-births make sense. Now let us address the heart of the way karma acts i.,e reaction to an action. The question is, is that the best way to make someone learn effectively? I think it is because you do something wrong and it has to be shown that it is not in your interest to do wrong. Because of a strong sense of physical self, people learn only when they are affected.

So in order to show that what you did was wrong , something needs to happen to you to make you realize that. Punishing you for all that you did in the same birth would make sense if the intensity of the action is very high so that a quick reaction discourages such further actions and stopping any chaos. That is why in Kali yuga the reactions are supposed to be faster. However there are deep and subtle flaws that are probably corrected at longer durations at the correct moment and so the reaction for an action may well be after a number of births. The point is the reaction needs to be there and it needs to be on you.

Dear Sravna,

Now lets go little deeper in the Theory of Karma or Tenets as some prefer to call it.

For this we will have to dig a little deep into history and then come back to the present.

My points are:

1)If a person is born into a religion that advocates Non Violence and Love and he is peace loving and Sattva for all practical purposes..so this most probably according to the Theory of Karma is becos of Merits of a Previous life..(I think you would agree)..

2)Ok..some time back in history..Mr Sattva was strolling down the river bank and right away came an invader from a different religion and sliced of his head!Mr Sattva is dead!

3)India has experienced atrocities in the hands of invaders of a particular religion..and even now the world is terrorized by ISIS..

4)Going by the Theory of Karma does that mean that so many presumed Good People of India who died in the hands of invaders had such a bad Karma to die in the hands of an invader?

5)Did the invader have a better Karma to exert superiority and violence over the meek?


Think about all these..what lessons does one expect the Jeeva to learn from all these?

The only lesson I can learn from this is not to let the Theory of Karma weaken the mind cos it rarely gives any answers..so what is there to learn over and over again..all I can say is with all the Punarapi Jananam Punarapi Maranam we actually still learn nothing!

 

[KRN]

Dear Srinivasan It is said that￾0È3 through meditation and performance of certain yogic practices one is very well able to remember the past births. This is universally accepted amongst yogis and their is no ¡°disbelieving of rebirth theory¡° amongst them. We￾0È3 of course may not remember even what our wife or mother tells us 1 hr back￾0È3 why generalise based on that. Karma is just a siddhanta to explain why certain things work. For example￾0È3 why detachment and looking inward leads to peace in most situations. These are the ¡°best practices¡° for living well￾0È3 as shared by Rishis.

Karma theory says if you have done something positive in the past you reap the benefits for them and if you have done something negative in the past you pay the price for them. To many this is not unacceptable especially because the past usually means past lives. Not only many do not believe in re-births but also they think that punishing or rewarding one based on previous lives is not correct because people who are punished have to wonder what is it they have done wrong in the past and why are they being punished for something they are not even aware of?First of all let us see the necessity of re-births. Re-births are necessary for the following reasons from the learning perspective of persons:1) People have to undergo different experiences to make all the learning possible and only different circumstances will help in providing that2) In addition to different environment , people have to possess different capabilities which is not possible without re-births2) If people know they can live forever they would be not encouraged to learnSo it seems that the concept of re-births is a sound one if we assume that the learning of the souls is the ultimate goalIs it also good that people do not remember their previous life experiences?Yes it is because if people would remember their previous life experiences they would for example understand directly why they are being punished or rewarded they would overlearn from their past experiences reducing considerably the possibility of complete learning i.e, learning by going through all the experiences.Learning by discerning is the goal of karma and this is possible only in the way it is being meted out.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Your poem could be turned against whatever you espouse . the only thing I can think of that will go against the notion of religion is the notion of importance of self.

the art of living is never taught - we think of self only and taught only to compete and not to share

the art of dying is most sought - we keep developing weapons both physical and mental that try to destroy others

why live if death is all we seek? - yes , Why?

a simple truth yet no answers to preach!

I really don't understand the second para

Is religion a propaganda to hide ?
that what we think is always not right ! - Yes if you replace the first line with " Is technology a way to hide?"

"Right" is faith that blinds the mind - faith need not be in religion alone it can be in one own self and be blind.

"wrong" is everything else but blind- Yes

Let me explain the 2nd stanza:

Before that..have you seen the movie R.I.P.D?(rest in peace department)?

Ok if you had not seen..the movie is all about the Department up in heaven that arrests and controls the dead and hostile.The term used for the hostile dead is Deaddo!

Back to my stanza:

The mind is said to be left behind,
Brainless Deaddos is supposedly divine,
Only the empty can be filled,
With cold darkness that never reveals.

For countless times we have been told that one needs to seek God not with his mind for God is beyond the senses and the blah blah blah..

Now is this really the truth or just a ploy to create a mental block in the masses?

When some one ceases to think..and totally surrenders to his preceptors..his mind is on "follow and do not question mode"..that is the empty mind that can be shaped to be filled with darkness so cold that no sun ever shines.

Now my explanation sounds some what spooky but actually this is how brainwashing works and we have people believing they are fighting on the side of God or belong to some Divine Sena and Lo Behold we have fanatics.

So letting the mind be manipulated by others is very dangerous..so I feel let the mind live..ony with the mind we can think and decide..if we leave it behind we are Deaddos!

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

Have you realized that in the Bhagavad Geeta Lord Krishna never brings in the Karma Theory?

He never tells Arjuna "O' Arjuna your pitiful condition is becos of your sins in a previous birth..so lay down your weapons..walk over to Duryodhana for he had earned the merit to kill you"

Did Lord Krishna ever spoke in such tones?

Lord Krishna was never ever fatalistic.

He was for all out action and dont stop till you get enough.

Think about it why Lord Krishna said to Arjuna to get up and fight and not be a coward.

Note: Its not that I am saying that the Karma Theory is false but its just that it does not actually give us any answers mainly becos no one really know how it works..so when we cant be sure of some system its best not to subscribe to it and face life as it comes.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Now lets go little deeper in the Theory of Karma or Tenets as some prefer to call it.

For this we will have to dig a little deep into history and then come back to the present.

My points are:

1)If a person is born into a religion that advocates Non Violence and Love and he is peace loving and Sattva for all practical purposes..so this most probably according to the Theory of Karma is becos of Merits of a Previous life..(I think you would agree)..

2)Ok..some time back in history..Mr Sattva was strolling down the river bank and right away came an invader from a different religion and sliced of his head!Mr Sattva is dead!

3)India has experienced atrocities in the hands of invaders of a particular religion..and even now the world is terrorized by ISIS..

4)Going by the Theory of Karma does that mean that so many presumed Good People of India who died in the hands of invaders had such a bad Karma to die in the hands of an invader?

5)Did the invader have a better Karma to exert superiority and violence over the meek?


Think about all these..what lessons does one expect the Jeeva to learn from all these?

The only lesson I can learn from this is not to let the Theory of Karma weaken the mind cos it rarely gives any answers..so what is there to learn over and over again..all I can say is with all the Punarapi Jananam Punarapi Maranam we actually still learn nothing!

Dear Renuka,

Dying in the hands of somebody is not because of bad karma but creates bad karma for the one who killed. One should not see only a particular time frame of history.We are talking only of a period of 1000 years or so . That is very short compared to the duration of a kalpa or even a yuga. I think the spiritual forces are resilient enough to bounce back when even most pushed against the wall. That is also a lesson to be learnt by the world.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Have you realized that in the Bhagavad Geeta Lord Krishna never brings in the Karma Theory?

He never tells Arjuna "O' Arjuna your pitiful condition is becos of your sins in a previous birth..so lay down your weapons..walk over to Duryodhana for he had earned the merit to kill you"

Did Lord Krishna ever spoke in such tones?

Lord Krishna was never ever fatalistic.

He was for all out action and dont stop till you get enough.

Think about it why Lord Krishna said to Arjuna to get up and fight and not be a coward.

Note: Its not that I am saying that the Karma Theory is false but its just that it does not actually give us any answers mainly becos no one really know how it works..so when we cant be sure of some system its best not to subscribe to it and face life as it comes.

Dear Renuka,

We cannot vouch for the correctness of any theory with certainty. The value of a theory is in how coherently it explains the truth without contradicting other known truths. In that way, I think karma theory is very consistent with the reality. It may not be totally supported by actual evidence but as a concept I think it cannot be contradicted.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Dying in the hands of somebody is not because of bad karma but creates bad karma for the one who killed. One should not see only a particular time frame of history.We are talking only of a period of 1000 years or so . That is very short compared to the duration of a kalpa or even a yuga. I think the spiritual forces are resilient enough to bounce back when even most pushed against the wall. That is also a lesson to be learnt by the world.

If God is a Director..His movie is not a hit,
For Box office He would need another script,
When is the time He would re write?
Is it a distant time? Or never ever in any time!

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

We cannot vouch for the correctness of any theory with certainty. The value of a theory is in how coherently it explains the truth without contradicting other known truths. In that way, I think karma theory is very consistent with the reality. It may not be totally supported by actual evidence but as a concept I think it cannot be contradicted.

Isn’t it obvious that God does not get involved?
Yet prayers subscribed for the totally unresolved,
Is it for me or is it for you or He we have to please?
An unanswered question..answers I really seek.

It was God who decided “I am One ..Let there by many”
Then came men...the more the merry!
It was His desire not mine,
Do I need to run around when I am not the mastermind.

 

[sravna]

Dear Srinivasan It is said that￾0È3 through meditation and performance of certain yogic practices one is very well able to remember the past births. This is universally accepted amongst yogis and their is no ¡°disbelieving of rebirth theory¡° amongst them. We￾0È3 of course may not remember even what our wife or mother tells us 1 hr back￾0È3 why generalise based on that. Karma is just a siddhanta to explain why certain things work. For example￾0È3 why detachment and looking inward leads to peace in most situations. These are the ¡°best practices¡° for living well￾0È3 as shared by Rishis.

Dear Shri KRN,

I agree. Those who are rationally inclined are satisfied only with reason even if the experiences of others sound compelling in other ways

 

[Naina_Marbus]

renukaji
all this karma theories are meant for the poor and the have not to make them reconcile to their poor lifestyle and accept their bad quality of living by the rich with the

connivance of godmen. there is little or no basis for these theories . these poor and deprived are sold these theories to keep them from challenging the existent economic

order and ensure that do not rebel and destroy it. slightly better off quote these theories to justify their incapability and inability to change their own life by concrete

.action. the old quote these theories when ill treated by their daughter in laws. so cheer up . pl do not take it seriously.lol

Krishji:

I am confused . Here is a serious nagging question in my mind and I would like your well-honed logical reasoning to provide a lucid response. Honestly, I like your logical reasoning.

Question: Now that you are securely ensconced in a nice comfortable well-paying ( and perhaps even pensionable) job, it is all so easy to trash-talk karma theories and all else that defined you until you finally ‘arrived’. Tell me, what will you tell the guys who were interviewed along with you for the same job, but only you got the job – hey dudes, I am better than you? Or if you wrote the civil service exams and cleared them successfully, what will you tell the guys who did not make it? What should be their attitude to you? Under similar circumstances, I have heard even my Western friends say that it was perhaps their karma and move on.

 

[KRN]

Dear Renuka Eventhough addressed to Srinivasan￾0È3 I thought your post covered an interesting set of general queries￾0È3 so am responding from my side too. In the Mahabharata there is an interesting episode. After the Pandavas were humiliated and sent to the forest￾0È3 Duryodhana becomes restive. He confides in his friends Karna and Sakuni. He says￾0È3 knowing that the Pandavas are roaming in freedom due to the generosity of his father￾0È3 he is unable to live peacefully. Then Karna remarks￾0È3 yes I can understand your situation. The Pandavas are anyway bereft of friends and in discomfiture. Why dont we fall upon them and kill them off straightaway. Then you will be able to rule peacefully. Eventhough Karnas suggestion was welcomed￾0È3 they could not follow through it￾0È3 fearing stiff opposition from Bhishma etc. Instead they finally decide to visit the forest citing some other reasons and enjoy watching the hardship of the Pandavas. Now why I mentioned this story. Here Karna is like the follower of the religion you mention below. He has only one religion - Duryodhana is akin to God for him and anybody who does not concur with Duryodhana can be killed without compunction.

Dear Sravna,Now lets go little deeper in the Theory of Karma or Tenets as some prefer to call it.For this we will have to dig a little deep into history and then come back to the present.My points are:1)If a person is born into a religion that advocates Non Violence and Love and he is peace loving and Sattva for all practical purposes..so this most probably according to the Theory of Karma is becos of Merits of a Previous life..(I think you would agree)..2)Ok..some time back in history..Mr Sattva was strolling down the river bank and right away came an invader from a different religion and sliced of his head!Mr Sattva is dead!3)India has experienced atrocities in the hands of invaders of a particular religion..and even now the world is terrorized by ISIS..4)Going by the Theory of Karma does that mean that so many presumed Good People of India who died in the hands of invaders had such a bad Karma to die in the hands of an invader?5)Did the invader have a better Karma to exert superiority and violence over the meek?Think about all these..what lessons does one expect the Jeeva to learn from all these?The only lesson I can learn from this is not to let the Theory of Karma weaken the mind cos it rarely gives any answers..so what is there to learn over and over again..all I can say is with all the Punarapi Jananam Punarapi Maranam we actually still learn nothing!