Dear Shri KRS:
I don't know where you are getting this from. Please clarify.
Let me quote you from this post, as that explains it. You say below: "I never said anything about being a castiest in any sense, let alone in a pejorative sense. I never even used the word "castiest". I am only objecting to the claim that "Belief in the caste system is not a pre-requisite" to think of oneself as a Brahmin. This is self-contradictory. You can't belong to a caste-group, cherish its culture and tradition, and still claim to not believe in caste-system."
This is exactly what I meant. I consider myself a Tamil Brahmin.(some others who consider themselves as such may not agree with that). This exists in every 'Community', as you know. But insisting that my 'caste' represents me, instead of what I call the Tamil Brahmin culture, you have attached me to a place where for me to call myself a Tamil Brahmin, I should accept casteism - which is in my definition is looking down upon other castes, thinking they are not equal etc. I don't do that in my life. So, why are are you classifying me under such a broad brush?
No, what I am saying is, "birth" is a necessary criterion for entry to this "community" called Brahmins and that is the reality. That makes it a caste-based community, in no less a way than Mudaliyar Sangam, or Nadar Peravai or whatever else there may be. I am just pointing out that you can't have a Brahmin "community" that is somehow different from Brahmin caste. This is trying to draw a distinction where there is no difference.
Again, I think of myself as belonging to this community. Believe me, the orthodox do not recognize me as a Brahmin. But, I do. That is my community. I don't understand how you can convince me that I am not a part of this 'community' sans any casteism on my part.
I never said anything about being a castiest in any sense, let alone in a pejorative sense. I never even used the word "castiest". I am only objecting to the claim that "
Belief in the caste system is not a pre-requisite" to think of oneself as a Brahmin. This is self-contradictory. You can't belong to a caste-group, cherish its culture and tradition, and still claim to not believe in caste-system.
I have already addressed it above. I am a prime example to repudiate your claim that 'You can't belong to a caste group, cherish it's culture and tradition, and still claim to not believe in caste-system'.
Once again, I must point out that I never said anything about castiesm. The starting point of discussion from my side was in
post #12. My point is one cannot
be a Brahmin and at the same time not believe in caste system. Just because you call it community, it does not cease to be a caste.
Sorry Shri KRS, I am not casting off an entire "community", my point is, you can't simply change the terminology from caste to community and just proclaim everything is dandy from now on. If you think casteism has its evil side, then it must be confronted and dealt with, not just swept under the rug. All past attempts at reform by the likes of Bhagavat Ramanuja himself have come to naught. That is why it is all the more important to face the challenge head-on and not perpetuate the identity-based separation by another name.
Again, you are confusing things here. Ramanuja never wanted to destroy the caste system. He was opposed to the Brahmin by birth idea. Nothing else.
This goes back to the difference between you and me. I recognize the limitations of the human condition. You believe in the limitless capacity of a human being to change on a dime if only they 'knew' the 'Truth'. This is exactly why you believe in idealism even in political systems such as Communism. Over time in my life, I have come to realize that human beings are not that idealistic. Maslow's theory applies.
Things are changing. There is a law in the books of India, outlawing castes (how it is administered is another thing). Brahmin kids have almost the same life as their NB counterparts in secular life, except they are reminded at each turn that they are Brahmin - but that is a different story.
I do have the best interest of all human-beings in my mind, Brahmins included. I think the best way to save the tradition and culture of Brahmins is to first and foremost find a way to welcome everyone who wants to be a Brahmin, whatever that is, into their fold, like the Jews do. Then call it a Brahmin community, without any affiliation to Brahmin caste. At that point I fail to see the value of retaining a caste name for such a Community, but that is a different topic.
The litmus test to see whether one is really committed to welcome all comers into "Brahmin" fold is icm. Right after Thirvanandapuram Swayamvaram it was revealed that an overwhelming majority of participants did not want icm to be included in Swayamvaram even as an option to anyone who may be interested.
This is the reality. This is what I am talking about. I feel, as a bare-minimum, one has to declare unreserved approval for icm if he/she wants to claim there is what is called Brahmin community, different from Brahmin caste. If this makes me an extremist in your eyes, that is fine, but that still is only an unnecessary characterization that does not advance the debate. I can also make comments like this about the person making the arguments, but I won't -- not because I fear moderation from my brother
![Smile :) :)](https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png)
, but because I think that is not the right thing to do.
The swayamvaram you talk about - in my opinion that was self selecting, run by casteists, and seemed to have been attended mainly by the orthodox of our COMMUNITY. That should not be the reflection on a Community.
ICM in that circumstance or any circumstance should not be a litmus test. It is not just caste, but culture (such as food, values etc.) that are secular are involved.
By the way within Judaism, if you convert, you convert in to a sect and can not practice another kind of that religion, unless you go through conversion again?
Anyways, I believe that love and patience are needed to let folks adapt to a life that is so different from their immediate forefathers/fathers, and it takes time. It never helps to heap vehemence upon our COMMUNITY based on yesterday's practices.
Cheers!