The relevence of Upanayanam

[Brahin]

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Though I have respect for you, in this particular situation I disagree. Brahmins in the north are proud in their own way. They may not show off their orthodoxy but they are very caste conscious especially in the interiors. I remember the conversation of a missionary with a Bihari in a train. The missionary was trying to talk about his religion. The Bihari said- I am not a beggar like you, I am a brahman, you wolf. These harsh words not exaggerated.

What is wrong if tamil brahmins make a big thing of Avani AVittam. Do they spend lot of money or do they get special points by participating in it. It is no more stupid then participating in any yearly puja. Yes they dont learn the vedas but these things help in cultural integration. I have never missed my Upakarma. I dont qualify as a vedic scholar. But during this occasion I get to meet a lot of people and I am happy to be paying dakshina to the brahman. I also feel nice to be hearing the vedas chanted in good measure. My friend introduced me to his young son. This friend does not have much idea on tradition. But because of the upakarma visits the boy has shown interested in learning vedas. My friend is quite surprised about his son and his attitude to vedas inspite of his own indifference.

I am not sure if any tambram is attending Upakarma just to show off.

These ceremonies are as good or as bad as any ritual or puja.

When the relevance is worn off there is a natural disinterest. I have heard that many youngsters these days dont shy away from acknowledging that it is many years since they attended an upakarma ceremony. However something continues to pull a few youngsters. Who are we to judge them? For all you know the concerned person's grandson might take up the study of vedas?

If Bihari Brahmin would have spoken about Geeta to missionary then missionary would have said this is Devil's Sermon.

Missionaries have conversion in mind so Bihari was right only..why you say he is proud?

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Sir,
That way you still respect it..so its Ok..many these days wear it like an inert adornment and even eat non veg even though wearing sacred thread.
So for such people better not to wear.

Last year Jayendra Saraswathi Swamigal visited Kolkata. A big function was organized by the local Tamil Brahmins. Homam, Patha Pujai etc. Very well attended. The Rudra Homam was conducted by the local Bengali pundits who are all non vegetarian. Vedic scholars were honoured during the occasion. Many of them including my professor, who is an authority on Vedas, are non-vegetarians. Many of the pundits attending the Veda Sabhas are non vegetarian.

Please re-examine the idea that you have to be a vegetarian to be a Brahmin. We prefer Vegetarian food because of the overwhelming advantages and our belief in not causing harm to animals. But then it is not a pre-requisite for being a Brahmin.

 

[Nara]

.... We prefer Vegetarian food because of the overwhelming advantages and our belief in not causing harm to animals.

I think the above is just an opinion. In my view, Brahmins became vegetarians in the south only because vegetarianism was seen as a prerequisite to be spiritual among Tamils. In due course of time Brahmins lost their taste for NV and even developed an aversion for it. Not harming animals is not the reason for their V food habit.

Also, NV is seen as rajasic and as Brahmins think of themselves as satvic, must avoid not only NV, even some vegetables that are considered rajasic.

Not harming animals has never been part of Brahminism. Animal products are used in all sorts of religious rituals, even today, even by Sanyasees.

Cheers!

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Coming back to Upanayanams and the points raised by Sri. Subbudu.

Upanayanam has become a function for showing off one's wealth, power and position. When I did upanayanams for my sons in a simple way inviting only the close relations, I got a lot flack from my colleagues, friends and relatives who felt that they should have been invited.

Avani Avittam has always been a big show. In our village we used to do it in the temple. After the function the Brahmins went round the village with Nagaswaram and all.Those boys who had not had the upanayanam done were given a Kalla Poonal to wear. The religious significance of the event was hardly known or felt.

You know in English when we say that something is reduced to a ritual, we mean observances without any meaning or significance. Another definition is A detailed method of procedure faithfully or regularly followed. Unfortunately most of our Samskaras have been reduced to mere rituals.

The encouraging factor is that there is more interest in the present generation to know the significance and meaning of these Samskaras. A number of questions are asked in this forum about the samskaras. I believe that this is one of the main achievements of this forum where we take a look at the way we do things.

 

[subbudu1]

You know in English when we say that something is reduced to a ritual, we mean observances without any meaning or significance. Another definition is A detailed method of procedure faithfully or regularly followed. Unfortunately most of our Samskaras have been reduced to mere rituals.

I agree here. But everything else has been reduced to just rituals. In the olden days people understood the meaning of marriage rituals. Now people take the oath yet dont know the meaning.
Why all that even the original purpose of shiva and vishnu may have been more logical. Now that has been reduced to rituals.

This is the state of affairs everywhere not only among our TB with a few exceptions.

I think it is not fruitful debating over whether something like upakarma should be done only if the person studies vedas.
I think it would be better if people follow whatever traditions they want to continue because their heart says so.
Life is like that the original meanings always get lost and new meanings of custom emerges. If we dont accept things that way then we need to all throw almost everything in our culture and start a new Sanathana Dharma with fresh rules and gods. That will not guarantee that those ideas will remain etched in human mind for posterity.

As far as I am concerned Upakarma is celebrated by all who believe in sacred thread. It is absolutely normal for people to take part without understanding the meaning. It can be ke/ simple however there is nothing wrong in society devising ways to make the participants feel elated as long as things are in moderation. It is as normal as visiting a temple shrine and doing situps in front of ganesha or as normal as doing pradakshinam. Even the temples have their own way of inviting people through tasty prasadam. If people dont believe in such things and dont perform them then also it is fine. If people believe in it , it is nothing more than passing a tradition without knowing its meaning. May be somebody somewhere is benefited.

There are really no for or against arguments that can be made in such matters. Any ritual has the same situation- Blind belief or follow only if you understand the meaning.Ultimately belief is belief and no belief will be able to withstand any kind of scientific questioning.

 

[suraju06]

But, my original doubt , what relevance this has got to the present day Brahmins like me, who do not perform any "nithya karmas", stands unanswered.

Disclaimer: No offence intended towards any one.

A butcher asked a Bharatanatyam exponent "What relevance Bharatanatyam has for me, a butcher?"

The answer given was "If you butcher, cut, maim and mince the meat that you handle as an expression of your artistic talents it is as good as bharata natyam for you".

Upanayanam is for those who believe in that ritual and not for non-believers. Non-believers please keep out and be happy.

 

[vikrama]

I have nothing new to say except repeating what I have said in these posts.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/2299-we-hypocrites.html
post-8
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/2299-we-hypocrites-5.html post-46

 

[Nara]

I have nothing new to say except repeating what I have said in these posts.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/2299-we-hypocrites.html
post-8
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/2299-we-hypocrites-5.html post-46

Dear vikrama sir, what is very well said is worth repeating. Thanks to the archives you don't even have to type it up again, just giving a link is sufficient. I thank you for providing the links, I really enjoyed reading the laments of the grandfather.

Except for a small fraction of the Brahmins, nobody bothers to keep the "sacred" thread sacred. According to their own Sashthras, it is sacred only if sandhya is done three times a day at the appointed time. When one is not wearing a kaccham it needs to be worn as a garland (and wound around the ear for convenience). If you shave you must bathe and change it to a new one. Same is the case if you take public transportation -- it makes one polluted (theettu). I wonder how many are even aware of these rules. None of these is even possible for the office going Brahmin.

These days the so called sacred thread serves no other purpose than to remind the wearer of Brahmin identity, one that reinforces separateness and superiority (also to scratch an itch in the back).

Cheers!

 

[ShivKC]

According to their own Sashthras, it is sacred only if sandhya is done three times a day at the appointed time. When one is not wearing a kaccham it needs to be worn as a garland (and wound around the ear for convenience). If you shave you must bathe and change it to a new one. Same is the case if you take public transportation -- it makes one polluted (theettu). I wonder how many are even aware of these rules. None of these is even possible for the office going Brahmin.

These days the so called sacred thread serves no other purpose than to remind the wearer of Brahmin identity, one that reinforces separateness and superiority (also to scratch an itch in the back).

Cheers!

Sir, please dont rush to address me as a christian. but i have a question..

in most of your anti brahmin posts you said or claimed or proved that, brahmins wrote the rule book of rituals, according to convenience.

now i say, if we could re write the rule book saying, a brahmin taking a public transport is not a TheetU. off late i have my rule for kAccham Vs bathing rule, whats your problem in that?

after all its our own culture and and you as an atheist shouldn't be bothered about? Live and let live, i think you would agree to that