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The Sheer Magnitude of it All

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kunjuppu

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the-holocaust-just-got-more-shocking

this in today's new york times. though i am not a world war 2 news junkie, i still read novels, stories and books about the war. this article states that the concentration camps killed 15 - 20 million people.

and then another 30 million during the fights. the bulk of it from the former ussr.

today, the killings are even easier. many a times when i see the news, and when i see the mini wars with maxi weapons, wonder what is in store for our children's children generation.

we may leave a fascinating legacy of technological achievements. hand in hand goes the gory massacres and weapons & mindset to kill more.

where would it all end? maybe the kali yuga is about to end after all...one mad man only needs to press the nuclear button before he sets off a chain reaction. right?
 
the-holocaust-just-got-more-shocking

this in today's new york times. though i am not a world war 2 news junkie, i still read novels, stories and books about the war. this article states that the concentration camps killed 15 - 20 million people.

and then another 30 million during the fights. the bulk of it from the former ussr.

today, the killings are even easier. many a times when i see the news, and when i see the mini wars with maxi weapons, wonder what is in store for our children's children generation.

we may leave a fascinating legacy of technological achievements. hand in hand goes the gory massacres and weapons & mindset to kill more.

where would it all end? maybe the kali yuga is about to end after all...one mad man only needs to press the nuclear button before he sets off a chain reaction. right?

Dear Kunjuppu,

I am of the confirmed view that whatever happens in this world is due to Karma. At the world level, it has to be the collective Karma of humanity as a whole and for individual countries or population groups, it will be due to their collective past Karma.

Human beings generally do not get to think beyond the "I"-ness, even though our Indian, Hindu scriptures talk incessantly about shedding ahamkAra and all that. This will be evident that even for the most pious bhakta or the most ardent seeker of Moksha through whatever religious methods he might follow, it is his or her own Moksha and thus the ahamkAra is still full-blown in the whole exercise.

Unless humanity or at least a good percentage of it, moves beyond such selfish notions and ideals promoted by the various religions, sects, swamijis, gurus, etc., there is every possibility that a complete holocaust is in store. But, at the same time, as a Hindu should we be bothered? After all, the great Krishna engineered one of the world's most serious holocausts with very many akshouhinis. Given below is just one view of that holocaust:—

Mahabharata, Book 11 (Stri Parva), Chapter 26, Verses 7 & 8:

The royal sage Dhritarashtra, however, restraining the grief that arises from folly, enquired of Yudhishthira the just, saying, ‘If, O son of Pandu, thou knowest it, tell me the number of those that have fallen in this battle, as also of those that have escaped with life!’

Mahabharata, Book 11 (Stri Parva), Chapter 26, Verses 9 &10:

9 “दशायुतानाम अयुतं सहस्राणि च विंशतिः
कॊट्यः षष्टिश च षट चैव ये ऽसमिन राजमृधे हताः
10 अलक्ष्याणां तु वीराणां सहस्राणि चतुर्दश
दश चान्यानि राजेन्द्र शतं षष्टिश च पञ्च च”

9 ‘dasayutanam ayutam sahasrani ca vimsatih
kotyah sastis ca sat caiva ye smin rajamrdhe hatah
10 alaksyanam tu viranam sahasrani caturdasa
dasa canyani rajendra satam sastis ca panca ca’

Yudhishthira answered,
‘One billion 660 million and 20,000 men have fallen in this battle. Of the heroes that have escaped, the number is 240,165.’

(Hinduism, approximately how many people died in mahabharat war? - Yahoo! Answers India)


The above does not take into account the fate (whatever it was!) of the 21,870 chariots (Sanskrit ratha); 21,870 elephants; 65,610 cavalry and 109,350 infantry,[SUP][1][/SUP] as per the Mahabharata (Adi Parva 2.15-23) per akshouhini in the 18 akshouhinis which took part in the war. (The ratio is 1 chariot : 1 elephant : 3 cavalry : 5 infantry soldiers.)

(Akshauhini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

We still continue, and praise & worship Krishna whereas Hitler who was mere 'snuff' (மூக்குப்பொடி) as compared to that, is vilified as satan personified and his Mein Kampf is not even looked at; compare this with Bhagavadgita and you will know the effects (narcotic?) of religion in the minds of even well-educated and emancipated people like yourself.


Hence there is nothing to worry! If 240,165 men could repopulate the world after Mahabharata war, even one man and one woman will be able to repopulate the world, may be a bit more slowly;) And our future generations are in safe hands, I would say.
 
That was in a different yuga. We are in kaliyuga.
Kaliyuga has a long way to go. We may be just in a yuga sandhi.

Yudhishthira answered,
‘One billion 660 million and 20,000 men have fallen in this battle. Of the heroes that have escaped, the number is 240,165.’

;) And our future generations are in safe hands, I would say.
 
We the Hindus have a way of grossly exaggerating everything. Especially the figures. Most of the time impossible/improbable figures are given in the epics and Puranas.
 
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Or we hindus have difficulties in raising to the level to understand. It was left to Dr. Karl Sagan to tell the world audience in his TV program that only hindus and indians had concept of large numbers, unlimited space, large time periods. Stephen Hawking too no longer subscribes to big bang theory, I believe.

It is prudent to leave alone puranas and hindu space/time concepts enumerated in them and avoid dissecting or criticizing them. They do not distort our lives now. perhaps better evolved souls (future scientists too) may find them more relevant and purposeful.

We the Hindus have a way of grossly exaggerating everything. Especially the figures. Most of the time impossible/improbable figures are given in the epics and Puranas.
 
Dear kunjuppu,

In those days it was a slow and painful death in the battle field once you are hurt. But the modern wars are different. Just push of a button in a briefcase and thermo nucler bombs will rain from ICBM and large populations will just evaporate in seconds. It will be painless and instantaneous. I do not worry because if it happens in my time i will go to heaven or hell and get back here to start a new civilization all over again without any past burdening me. That will be quite thrilling. LOL.

Humour apart, there is a lot of difference between the holocaust and the Mahabharath war. Holocaust was a shame-with millions of jews dying for no fault (including women and children) whereas mahabharath war was between good and evil. The struggle between good and evil will continue for ever.

Cheers.
 
Yudhishthira answered,
‘One billion 660 million and 20,000 men have fallen in this battle. Of the heroes that have escaped, the number is 240,165.’

That only accounts for fighting men. Women and children were not in the battle field. So if you included the women and children at that time, Indian population must have been closer to 3 billion. Which probably includes most of Asia in todays population.
I agree with Mr. Nacchi's assertion.
I agree with Mr. Raju that It is in bad taste to equate Hitler with Krishna.
 
That only accounts for fighting men. Women and children were not in the battle field. So if you included the women and children at that time, Indian population must have been closer to 3 billion. Which probably includes most of Asia in todays population.
I agree with Mr. Nacchi's assertion.
I agree with Mr. Raju that It is in bad taste to equate Hitler with Krishna.

Dear Shri Prasad,

Just as Hitler is supposed to have killed so many jews "for no fault of their own" the Mahabharata war also killed millions of soldiers on both sides; even if one takes the position that the soldiers on the Kaurava side were ipso facto evil because of the specious arguments that they opposed the Pandava army, that the Pandavas were the symbols of good (vis-a-vis evil) and that this was a priori so because Krishna sided with the Pandavas, etc., the fact remains that a holocaust did indeed happen and soldiers of the Pandava side at least (although this will apply to the Kaurava soldiers also with equal force) who were not at fault at all and were obeying orders as disciplined soldiers, got killed by the millions, for no fault of theirs; just as innocently as the 20th. century Jews. Arjuna's hesitation to enter the battlefield was based on, among other reasons, this aspect also.

Your comment that "It is in bad taste to equate Hitler with Krishna.", only reveals your religious prejudices, imo.
 
Mr. Sangom sir,
I respect your knowledge, but not necessarily your biases.

World War II fatality statistics vary, with estimates of total dead ranging from 50 million to over 70 million.[1] The sources cited in this article document an estimated death toll in World War II that range from approximately 60 to 80 million, making it the deadliest war in world history in absolute terms of total dead but not in terms of deaths relative to the world population.
When scholarly sources differ on the number of deaths in a country, a range of war losses is given, in order to inform readers that the death toll is disputed. Civilians killed totaled from 38 to 55 million, including 13 to 20 million from war-related disease and famine. Total military dead: from 22 to 25 million, including deaths in captivity of about 5 million prisoners of war.

So to say that
‘One billion 660 million and 20,000 men have fallen in this battle.
In Mahabharat war is an exaggeration.
According to Kurukshetra War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Each army consisted of several divisions; the Kauravas had 11 while the Pandavas controlled 7. A division (akshauhini) includes 21,870 chariots and chariot-riders, 21,870 elephants and riders, 65,610 horses and riders, and 109,350 foot-soldiers (in a ratio of 1:1:3:5). The combined number of warriors and soldiers in both armies was approximately 3.94 million.

So assuming almost all died it still is well under 4 Million.
 
Mr. Sangom sir,
I respect your knowledge, but not necessarily your biases.



So to say that
In Mahabharat war is an exaggeration.
According to Kurukshetra War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Each army consisted of several divisions; the Kauravas had 11 while the Pandavas controlled 7. A division (akshauhini) includes 21,870 chariots and chariot-riders, 21,870 elephants and riders, 65,610 horses and riders, and 109,350 foot-soldiers (in a ratio of 1:1:3:5). The combined number of warriors and soldiers in both armies was approximately 3.94 million.

So assuming almost all died it still is well under 4 Million.

Shri Prasad,

Should we not give credit to the figures given by Yudhishtira himself in Mahabharata? Or, do you think Yudhishtira himself was exaggerating and telling an untruth?
 
Shri Prasad,

Should we not give credit to the figures given by Yudhishtira himself in Mahabharata? Or, do you think Yudhishtira himself was exaggerating and telling an untruth?

I did not hear it from Yudhistira. There must be at least 3rd or 4th hand information in a story.
 
Dear Shri Prasad,

Just as Hitler is supposed to have killed so many jews "for no fault of their own" the Mahabharata war also killed millions of soldiers on both sides; even if one takes the position that the soldiers on the Kaurava side were ipso facto evil because of the specious arguments that they opposed the Pandava army, that the Pandavas were the symbols of good (vis-a-vis evil) and that this was a priori so because Krishna sided with the Pandavas, etc., the fact remains that a holocaust did indeed happen and soldiers of the Pandava side at least (although this will apply to the Kaurava soldiers also with equal force) who were not at fault at all and were obeying orders as disciplined soldiers, got killed by the millions, for no fault of theirs; just as innocently as the 20th. century Jews. Arjuna's hesitation to enter the battlefield was based on, among other reasons, this aspect also.

Your comment that "It is in bad taste to equate Hitler with Krishna.", only reveals your religious prejudices, imo.

Sri Sangom

There is no absolute good or absolute evil - depends on point of view ..Unless one is shaped by a religious indoctrination.

With that said what is your reasoning to equate Krishna with Hitler as opposed to Duryodhana (with Hitler) in the story ...
 
Dear Kunjuppu,

I am of the confirmed view that whatever happens in this world is due to Karma. At the world level, it has to be the collective Karma of humanity as a whole and for individual countries or population groups, it will be due to their collective past Karma.

Human beings generally do not get to think beyond the "I"-ness, even though our Indian, Hindu scriptures talk incessantly about shedding ahamkAra and all that. This will be evident that even for the most pious bhakta or the most ardent seeker of Moksha through whatever religious methods he might follow, it is his or her own Moksha and thus the ahamkAra is still full-blown in the whole exercise.

Unless humanity or at least a good percentage of it, moves beyond such selfish notions and ideals promoted by the various religions, sects, swamijis, gurus, etc., there is every possibility that a complete holocaust is in store. But, at the same time, as a Hindu should we be bothered? After all, the great Krishna engineered one of the world's most serious holocausts with very many akshouhinis. Given below is just one view of that holocaust:—

Mahabharata, Book 11 (Stri Parva), Chapter 26, Verses 7 & 8:

The royal sage Dhritarashtra, however, restraining the grief that arises from folly, enquired of Yudhishthira the just, saying, ‘If, O son of Pandu, thou knowest it, tell me the number of those that have fallen in this battle, as also of those that have escaped with life!’

Mahabharata, Book 11 (Stri Parva), Chapter 26, Verses 9 &10:

9 “दशायुतानाम अयुतं सहस्राणि च विंशतिः
कॊट्यः षष्टिश च षट चैव ये ऽसमिन राजमृधे हताः
10 अलक्ष्याणां तु वीराणां सहस्राणि चतुर्दश
दश चान्यानि राजेन्द्र शतं षष्टिश च पञ्च च”

9 ‘dasayutanam ayutam sahasrani ca vimsatih
kotyah sastis ca sat caiva ye smin rajamrdhe hatah
10 alaksyanam tu viranam sahasrani caturdasa
dasa canyani rajendra satam sastis ca panca ca’

Yudhishthira answered,
‘One billion 660 million and 20,000 men have fallen in this battle. Of the heroes that have escaped, the number is 240,165.’

(Hinduism, approximately how many people died in mahabharat war? - Yahoo! Answers India)


The above does not take into account the fate (whatever it was!) of the 21,870 chariots (Sanskrit ratha); 21,870 elephants; 65,610 cavalry and 109,350 infantry,[SUP][1][/SUP] as per the Mahabharata (Adi Parva 2.15-23) per akshouhini in the 18 akshouhinis which took part in the war. (The ratio is 1 chariot : 1 elephant : 3 cavalry : 5 infantry soldiers.)

(Akshauhini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

We still continue, and praise & worship Krishna whereas Hitler who was mere 'snuff' (மூக்குப்பொடி) as compared to that, is vilified as satan personified and his Mein Kampf is not even looked at; compare this with Bhagavadgita and you will know the effects (narcotic?) of religion in the minds of even well-educated and emancipated people like yourself.


Hence there is nothing to worry! If 240,165 men could repopulate the world after Mahabharata war, even one man and one woman will be able to repopulate the world, may be a bit more slowly;) And our future generations are in safe hands, I would say.

It requires a special inclination to turn the opening post of Holocaust to make World War II a special referendum of Mahabharata and bring in Krishna, Gurus, Babas, religious narcotism and snuff etc. into it.
 
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Lord Krishna never engineered any holocaust..we humans engineer everything by our own Karma and God is just the silent witness just like how Krishna did not kill anyone in the war and only remained a Sarathi.

God is the Sanathana Sarathi..its we humans who fight.
 
hi
here we can see a war of words.....hiltler was different time from mahabharata....many witnessed hitler's holocaust...many

survivors of hitler's holocaust still alive... but i dont think any survivors of mahabharata alive now....so we are now

comparing like apples and oranges....
 
Sri. Sangom, Greetings. ( We made it back in one piece!).

You may very well place Mahabharata War under Krsna's feet. Why not?

But it was not a genocide. You may not compare that with genocide of Jews.

In the case of Jews, all the able bodied men were made to toil very long hours in factories until their bodies were broken down due to fatigue and sickness. All the possible women were forced into prostitution to satisfy the soldiers of the fatherland. Very importantly, Jews did not have a choice. They were sent by force by the cattle train loads to the furnaces. Those Jews were not armed at all.

In the case of Mahabharata, only the soldiers who chose to fight entered Kurushetra. They were not forced. They were armed. They could have left the arena at anytime. Mahabharata war was not a genocide. Agreed, it was barbaric, not genocide though.

Comparing Mahabharata war and Jews holocaust is not reasonable.

Cheers!
 
I actually think that more the population, the more the chance of people dying, just because of the average proximity of people decreasing. This is just part of the balancing act of nature. More people exist, more the chance of somebody dying in an earthquake or tsunami. Everything will even out and come to an equilibrium.
 
Many members have disagreed with my view that Krishna of Mahabharata can be equated with Hitler. In my view, both were humans and both contrived in one way or the other to get a very large number of people killed. May be Gengis Khan also comes in the same category, imo. This is because, unlike most of you here, I do not allow any superhuman or godly status to Krishna; my mind and intellect works that way and the only drawback with me may be that I speak the truth.

To the question why Krishna, and not Duryodhana, is likened to Hitler, my answer is that Duryodhana was not very wrong in staking his claim for the throne because his father was the king before him. The war and the wholesale massacre could have very well been avoided if only Krishna had not actively egged on Arjuna by means of BG, to fight and kill every one irrespective of whether the opponents were guru, pitamaha or jnaatis. In my view Krishna is as condemnable as Hitler and not Duryodhana, therefore.

I do not find any convincing reason to believe that Pandavas symbolized the "good" whatever that may mean and that Kauravas symbolized all that was "bad" and only that. Only minds indoctrinated by religious opiate will be able to take that sort of narrow-minded view.
 
The war and the wholesale massacre could have very well been avoided if only Krishna had not actively egged on Arjuna by means of BG, to fight and kill every one irrespective of whether the opponents were guru, pitamaha or jnaatis.

The Sankhyakarika details the guru-shisya lineage of the Sankhya school, starting from Rishi Kapila (who is credited with starting the school). From Kapila, the doctrines are handed in succession thus- Kapila -> Asuri -> Panchashikhsa (aka Kapileya).

Panchasiksha is credited by another prominent Sankya teacher, namely, Ishvara-Krishna, to have made the doctrines "generally known".

Panchashiksha's disciple Uluka (aka Kanada or 'atom-eater') was the author of Vaisheshika Sutra. Uluka was the guru of Ishvara-Krishna.

Ishvara-Krishna on receiving the doctrines arranged them and set them in an epic metre.

Some authors believe Bhagavad-Gita was the work of Ishvara-Krishna of the Sankhya school. Not Krishna, the son of Devaki (of Mahabharat). That Mahabharat grew in volume, with many texts added over years, is found in books by various historians.

The Sankhya thinkers and philosophers, apparently with their scientific temperament, envisioned an ideal society; which however (IMO) is too ideal to be true. Too ideal to have ever come to fruition.

The Bhagavad-Gita, some researchers contend, was added to the Mahabharat in the form of an imagined conversation (between Arjuna and 'Krishna' on a battlefield).

This book is useful WRT all info stated here (available for free on google books):
The Bhagavad-gítá: or, A discourse on divine matters between Krishna and Arjuna. A Sanskrit philosophical poem

Krishna, the son of Devaki, it seems (to me) found the best middle path -- he gave his army to duryodhana and served as a charioteer to Arjun.

The dynastic politics of kurus; as it existed, apparently required no egging by anybody.
 
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To the question why Krishna, and not Duryodhana, is likened to Hitler, my answer is that Duryodhana was not very wrong in staking his claim for the throne because his father was the king before him. The war and the wholesale massacre could have very well been avoided if only Krishna had not actively egged on Arjuna by means of BG, to fight and kill every one irrespective of whether the opponents were guru, pitamaha or jnaatis. In my view Krishna is as condemnable as Hitler and not Duryodhana, therefore.

The kingdom, those days, was given only to the able (and not physically disabled) candidate. Thus, in the words of DhridarAstra, SantAnu, Bhisma's father obtained the kingdom, bypassing his two elder brothers., and he advises Duryodhana to calm down and give atleast half of the share. [after the pandus came from 14 years exile and 1 year disguise]. Even vidura, Gandhari, Bhisma, Drona, everyone advised Duryodhana. But, he wanted war.

Excerpts from the Mahabharata (Sacred Texts):


Realising that he won't oblige, Krishna showed his extra-ordinary feats to incite fear. With no results, Finally Krishna's words to Duryodhana,"'Those heroes, the sons of Pandu, sacrificing their pride, will live in dependence on Dhritarashtra, Bhishma and Vidura. Let the kingdom be given to thee. Let them have no power. Let: it all be as the king (Dhritarashtra), as Ganga's son (Bhishma) and as Vidura say for thy good. Let the kingdom be thine. Relinquish but five villages (to the Pandavas). O best of kings, without doubt they deserve to be supported by thy father."

Then, Duryodhana provokes the pandavas for war, through the messenger Uluka. His words, "'Say once more unto Dhananjaya in the bearing of Vasudeva these words, viz.,--O hero, either vanquishing us rule thou this world, or vanquished by us lie thou down on the field (deprived of life)! Recalling to thy mind the sufferings occasioned by your banishment from the kingdom, the woes of your sojourn in the woods, and 'he affliction of Krishna, be a man, O son of Pandu! That for which a Kshatriya lady bringeth forth a son is now arrived! Displaying, therefore, in battle, thy might, energy, courage, manliness, and great dexterity and speed in the use of weapons, appease thy wrath! For twelve long years hadst thou been exiled from home into the woods, and one whole year hadst thou passed in Virata's service! Remembering the pangs of banishment from the kingdom and of thy sojourn in the woods, as also those which Krishna had suffered, be thou a man! From fear of Vasudeva, or from fear of thyself, O Falguni, I will not give up the kingdom! Fight with Kesava as thy ally! Neither deception, nor conjuror's tricks, nor jugglery, can terrify the armed man addressed for fight. On the other hand, these provoke only his wrath. A thousand Vasudevas, a hundred Falgunis, approaching me whose arms and weapons never go for nothing, will surely fly away in all directions. O thou of little understanding, how canst thou, O fool, venture to fight with me when stationed in the midst of my elephant-host? Fight, O Arjuna, without bragging! When having plunged into this surging ocean with its inexhaustible waves of weapons, thou wilt, from fatigue, be deprived of senses and have all thy relatives and friends slain, then will repentance possess thy heart! Then also will thy heart turn away from the thought of ruling the earth, like the heart of a person of impure deeds turning away from (hope of) heaven. Indeed, for thee to win a kingdom to rule is as impossible as for one not possessed of ascetic merit to obtain heaven!'"

Arjuna's words through Uluka, 'Go, O Uluka, and say unto Duryodhana, that ungrateful, wicked-minded embodiment of hostilities, that infamous wretch of his race, these words, viz.,--O sinful wretch, thou always behavest with crookedness towards the Pandavas! O sinful fool, he that displayeth his prowess relying on his own might and summoneth his foes (to battle) and fulfilleth his own words, even he is a man of the Kshatriya order! Be thou a Kshatriya, O sinful wretch, and summon us to battle! O infamous one of thy race, do not come to battle, placing at thy head others for whom we profess respect! O Kaurava, relying on thy own might and on that of thy servants, summon the sons of Pritha to battle! Be Kshatriya in every way! He, who summoneth his foes, relying on the might of others, and incapable of receiving them himself is, indeed, a eunuch! Thou, however, thinkest highly of thyself, relying on the might of others! Being weak and unable thyself, why then dost thou roar so (in words) at us?'

"Krishna said, 'My words also, O gambler's son, should be communicated unto Suyodhana. Let that morrow come to thee on which the battle is to take place. O thou of wicked soul, be a man! O fool, thou thinkest Janardana will not fight, since he hath been chosen by the Pandavas to act only as a charioteer, so thou art not alarmed. That, however, will not be, even for a moment. If my wrath is excited, I may then consume all the kings (assembled by thee) like a fire consuming a heap of straw. At Yudhishthira's command, however, I shall only discharge the functions of charioteer to the high-souled Falguni, of senses under complete control and who alone, (amongst us two) will fight! If thou fliest beyond the limits of the three worlds, if thou sinkest into the depths of the earth, thou shalt, even at these places, behold Arjuna's car tomorrow morning. Thou thinkest that Bhima's words have been spoken in vain! But know that Dussasana's blood hath already been quaffed. Know this also that although thou hast uttered such cross and perverse words, yet neither Partha, nor king Yudhishthira, nor Bhimasena, nor any of the twins, regardeth thee as straw!'"


P.S: Enjoy the dialogue!
 
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Many members have disagreed with my view that Krishna of Mahabharata can be equated with Hitler. In my view, both were humans and both contrived in one way or the other to get a very large number of people killed. May be Gengis Khan also comes in the same category, imo. This is because, unlike most of you here, I do not allow any superhuman or godly status to Krishna; my mind and intellect works that way and the only drawback with me may be that I speak the truth.

To the question why Krishna, and not Duryodhana, is likened to Hitler, my answer is that Duryodhana was not very wrong in staking his claim for the throne because his father was the king before him. The war and the wholesale massacre could have very well been avoided if only Krishna had not actively egged on Arjuna by means of BG, to fight and kill every one irrespective of whether the opponents were guru, pitamaha or jnaatis. In my view Krishna is as condemnable as Hitler and not Duryodhana, therefore.

I do not find any convincing reason to believe that Pandavas symbolized the "good" whatever that may mean and that Kauravas symbolized all that was "bad" and only that. Only minds indoctrinated by religious opiate will be able to take that sort of narrow-minded view.

One need not take Sri Krishna as a Bhagavan just like one does not have to believe about any of the magical things described. However the way the story is presented your equation of Krishna to Hitler even taking Krishna to be just another historical figure reveals your religious bias and belief system in my view. LoL

If it is not bias then the position is due to completely missing the essence of the story which I tend to think is unlikely ...
 
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Dear Sri Sangom,

Many members have disagreed with my view that Krishna of Mahabharata can be equated with Hitler. In my view, both were humans and both contrived in one way or the other to get a very large number of people killed. May be Gengis Khan also comes in the same category, imo. This is because, unlike most of you here, I do not allow any superhuman or godly status to Krishna; my mind and intellect works that way and the only drawback with me may be that I speak the truth.

This appears to be a self congratulatory point. Others do not become less truthful because they believe in divinity of Krishna or you do not become more trutfhful just because you would consider as an ordinary human or a king.

But for your theory that Krishna was just an ordinary king from neighburing area to hold water, you have rather unconvincing hypothesis to explain whether orginary kings from neighbourhood states did indeed join the battle as sArathIs or chariot-drivers and that too to the princeling and whether they fought the wars unarmed against their own soliders who were pledged to support the opposing king, in this case the kauravas.

To the question why Krishna, and not Duryodhana, is likened to Hitler, my answer is that Duryodhana was not very wrong in staking his claim for the throne because his father was the king before him. The war and the wholesale massacre could have very well been avoided if only Krishna had not actively egged on Arjuna by means of BG, to fight and kill every one irrespective of whether the opponents were guru, pitamaha or jnaatis. In my view Krishna is as condemnable as Hitler and not Duryodhana, therefore.

Except for the fact that this contradicts your own theory of karma which you attributed as the cause in your very post in this thread. If indeed the karma had ripened and fell due for happening whether Krishna was good or Duryodhana was good, the war was bound to happen and blaming Krishna for the war is like blaming the crow for the fall of the tree branch that it was perching on.

I do not find any convincing reason to believe that Pandavas symbolized the "good" whatever that may mean and that Kauravas symbolized all that was "bad" and only that. Only minds indoctrinated by religious opiate will be able to take that sort of narrow-minded view.

Paradoxically as it may sound, all the founders of new religions said the same thing, viz. that the existing populace was indoctrinated with religious opate and they (the new religious leaders) formed a new religion to redeem the populace from this opium.

Regards,
 
Dear Sangom ji,

When I first read the Mahabharat only 2 characters stood out...Lord Krishna and Karna.

The rest were desire filled as anyone else.

Karna was even better than Yudhisthira I feel.

Almost everyone in Mahabharat was filled with Kama,Krodha,Lobha,Moha, Mada and Matsarya.

That is why Paramahansa Yogananda has described the Mahabharat as the Battle of the Senses.

I do not see any valid reason to blame Lord Krishna for the whole war.

Duryodhana had his choice to choose Lord Krishna or the army.

He chose the army instead and Arjuna chose Lord Krishna.

All I can say is Pandavas had faith..something that the Kauravas lacked.

On that point alone Pandavas won the war cos faith can work wonders.
 
Democracy, it is said, is the tyranny of the majority. I now find here a religious democracy !!

My opinion or view has not been imposed on anyone and, according to the rules of this forum, as long as I express my view only, there should ordinarily not be any counters which sort of compel a change in my view or find fault with my view or try to justify the majority view; if anyone agrees with my view, take it otherwise leave it. That should be the principle.

I feel (once again this is my personal view and I don't need any counters etc.) that this sort of "mass hysteria" to just cow down someone with a non-conformist view is indicative of the deep trust deficit that you people all have in your own set of beliefs and the mere writing of an opposite view makes you all behave as if a common enemy has come up to destroy your pet belief system.

Otherwise why should the behaviour be like this? What benefit you are going to gain by this?

There was one point raised by Shri Zebra re. Karma theory and he tries to justify Krishna's actions in terms of the inevitability of Karma. If this is accepted, it will once again corroborate the fact that Krishna was just a mere mortal acting according to the effects of all his past karmas. If he were a superhuman being, he would have been unaffected by karma (such a hollow claim is made by him in his expansive - i.e., Marked by exaggerated feelings of euphoria and delusions of grandeur - in the Bhagavadgeeta) but your own statement negates that. Secondly, this rule can equally well be applied to Hitler and a view can be taken and we can comfort ourselves saying "indeed the karma had ripened and fell due for happening whether Hitler was good or the Jews were good, the holocaust and the war were bound to happen and blaming Hitler for the war is like blaming the crow for the fall of the tree branch that it was perching on."

Regarding Palindrome's post, I will request a look at "Phulgenda Sinha" and "The Gita As It Was:
Rediscovering the Original Bhagavadgita." through googling.
I think even if Isvara Krishna wrote the BG, it was revised, probably more than once, because whatever plus points of Samkhya was written has been nullified by subsequent adhyayas and specific slokas. I shall carefully go through the google book suggested by you, please.
To Shri Govinda, I will humbly refer to the fact that the M. Bh. itself contains a scene in which Arjuna suspects Krishna of playing the Pandavas against the Kauravas in order to swallow the Kuru empire into the Vrishni empire. In fact Arjuna attempts to kill Krishna but he is prevented by Yudhishtira. I understand ( but have not verified) that Villibharatam also gives this scene. Hence, it is one more proof that even Arjuna was not always trustful of Krishna.
 
Dear Sri. Sangom, Greetings.

Most members love to address your messages. Nothing really personal. It is always nice to engage a knowledgable person. For example, personally I did not object due to any religious reasons. In my opinion, since the soldiers of Mahabharata had a choice to leave, they could not be equated to any holocaust or genocide victims. That was all.

I would look at each situation separately. Granted, second world war caused millions of death. But we can not be equating persons on that alone, in my humble opinion. Nature also caused tens of thousands of death....... We can not be equating Hitler to nature, can we?

If we look at the story more deeply, it was Sakuni who took an oath to wipe out kuru dynasty. Droyodhana followed Sakunis advice. Sakuni lead them to that situation. I am wondering why Sakuni is not blamed for the war?

Cheers!
 
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