The times they are a changing :)

[kunjuppu]

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let me start with replies for both revathi and valli , which i feel i am owed.

as a preamble, i would request posters here to be polite. mastery of english is not a requirement but mastery of manners is a must.otherwise teacher praveen will be forced to use the perambu again

valli quote 'Very very true. But as far as the cases I know the boys didn't consider the wives as Trophies just because they were brahmins and also they didn't love the girls for the same reason. But yes, they consider their wives as trophies because not many boys happen to get to marry the love of their life and live a successful married life with her!! '

very true valli. my one close girl relative had a love marriage (iyer boy ofcourse, 30 years ago, but a dashing suave and fast talking bloke, who literally swept her off her feet). any time after the marriage, she would not brook any comment or what she perceived as criticism of her lover husband and the she-tiger in her would leap with fury. 30 years later, on the cusp of old age, it is so cute, to see them still so luvvy duvvy, and each other's eyes light up when they find themselves in a crowd. seldom have i found the zing and heart flutter that love marriages appear to invoke. over time.

valli quote 'I suppose that this question is intended for parents who seek alliance for their children. I am not one of those parents! I would expect my boy to find his own girl. I would also give him advice not to postpone it for too long. I don't want him to be one of those nerds (who know nothing but studying, getting A++ and landing in a high income job) who look down for many years into books only to look up and find that all the suitable girls are gone!! If he is unlucky enough not to get a girl/bride till he turns 30+ then I would have to take the help of matrimonial columns. And in that situation me or my boy who has turned 30+ CANNOT afford to be choosy!'

valli, my children have all told me that they will do their hunting. which is ok with me, after all it is their life, and no one wants to be self destructive. the marriage market is among the most darwinian of all transaction oriented activities. we are forever evaluating our 'worth' with what we will get for it. this is the same whether it be arranged or love type. what changes is the participants. but the essence of evaluation is the same: looks, earning capacity, prospects, character and compatibility. the last factor has more weightage in a love marriage for obvious reasons. where i live, social ostracism is non existent. in india, in urban chennai, i doubt if anyone cares. it may be different in the rural areas.

revathi quote 'I have seen both in kannadiga Smarthas' house and other friends house- who are brahmins various Northern states - not in the habit of following this.

This is just a simple example - where it involves day to day adjustment.

So I personally, if given a choice, would be hesitant to live in that atmosphere.As simple as that. This does not mean that they are superior and we are inferior and vice versa.Various fights between MIL and DIL originate from silly reasons on how to cut Brinjal! Why to bring in unwanted problems in life sir?'

revathi, at the start of any marriage, there is a period of discovery, i think. in arranged marriages, some aspects of the compatibility particularly socio cultural ones are considered. but no one knows the house habits, and many surprises invariably follow. usually it is the girl that gets hit with it, unless ofcourse thani kudhithanam, where it is the husband. the west solution is to have 'live in' ie set up a household without the benefit of formal marriage, which may or may not follow.

each one has its own merits.

also, i would like to comment on RVR's observations that indian marriages are among the best held together in the world. i agree that indian unions are the best glued together.

more than that, it is upto the individual to make an assessment. personally i am skeptical as to how many are 'successful' by modern definition of a partner, doing things together, sharing and having a zing in their marriage. when you have a mamiyar staring over your shoulders, there is no chance for an oodal and huddling into the bedroom only brings unwanted attention.

again, i am not putting any values to the above disparity or judging which is better. it is just that these are two different types of institutions and one cannot compare apples to oranges just because they are both fruits.

so to sum, we are talking of different terms of marriage unions.

furthermore, indian society is fast changing. if there are more divorces, i would not consider that we have abandoned a once golden formula. not at all. it is just that the terms of reference has changed. which i think is for the better. also it is inevitable. can anyone here figure out how to turn back the clock?

thank you.

 

[ganeshrev]

Shri Kunjuppu

revathi, at the start of any marriage, there is a period of discovery, i think. in arranged marriages, some aspects of the compatibility particularly socio cultural ones are considered. but no one knows the house habits, and many surprises invariably follow. usually it is the girl that gets hit with it, unless ofcourse thani kudhithanam, where it is the husband. the west solution is to have 'live in' ie set up a household without the benefit of formal marriage, which may or may not follow.

.

Thanks for your view.

The context of what I posted was basically when we look for alliances (Brahmins from anypart of India) through arranged marriages.

Basically , I want to cut down the culture/habit shocks and surprises apart from the tension of adjusting to moods and behaviour of the in-laws. Hence habits and custom become minimum common denominators!I know there may be difference - but when we know certain group follow different habits, we would not consider that as the first preference.(Unless people are in "love" with each other that they do not care about this.).Thats what I wanted to convey to remove any notion of superior/inferior talk which was posted by members.

BTW, have you read latest anantha vikatan where S.Ramakrishnan has writtten a beautiful story about the feelings of the girl after the love marriage between Veg NB girl and Non Veg NB.Unfortunately, I read in the printed versions I cannot quote the link.

Thanks
Revathi

 

[rajesh]

Dear Ganeshrev,
Yes..Thats a nice story. The following lines were really disturbing..Practical difficulties of icms...

அருண் டி.வி. பார்த்தபடியே ஆட்டுக் கால் சூப் குடித்துக்கொண்டு இருப்பான். அவனது அப்பா சமையல் அறைக்குள்ளாக ஸ்டூலைப் போட்டு உட்கார்ந்துகொண்டு, கறி வேகும்போதே கொஞ்சம் கொஞ்சமாகக் கரண்டியில் எடுத்துத் தின்று பார்த்தபடியே இருப்பார். தங்கை சாதத்தில் கறியைப் போட்டுப் புரட்டிச் சாப்பிடுவாள். ஜெயந்தியால், அந்தக் காட்சிகளைத் தாங்கிக்கொள்ள முடியவில்லை.

 

[kunjuppu]

hi revathi, rajesh,

i agree with you.

i grew up in a palghat house ie not even capsicum or cauliflower. and absolutely no garam masala. i could not get used to garam masala for two years and then slowly i came to like it. it is now part of my palette.

similar happened to my sister, whose hubby grew up all over india.

with meat, i would imagine, the ability to get over the smell would be much higher i would imagine. if not never.

i have not read this story as i dont get vikatan online. one thing though i cannot but observing - the girl made an incompatible marriage here. it is no different from any other marriage.

i have had my girl cousin, teeth broken and sent back home, for what was considered impetuous by the in laws.

also, i am not so sure, that we can generalize the concept of hygiene. i know of tambrams here in toronto whose kitchen i see, and i do not want to eat there. to me putting the spoon inside the pickle bottles so that riight through it is stained with the pickle and you cannot scoop the pickle without soiling your hands - is for starters a bad thing. next in line comes, folks washing their hands and shaking it so that water splurts all over.. and i can go on.

and also non veggies, i know of several, who maintain a great level of hygiene. it all depends on the family and particularly the wife, and not on the type of the food that is cooked.

i have found hygiene more in effect if the wife is the sole occupier of the kitchen. if there are others ie children or mil, the hygiene level goes down - simply because there are more hands leaving their imprints.

i just find it difficult to generalize there, but then that is my problem.

to sum up: i am not sure what the message of the story is: is it blatantly that all ic marriages are doomed on the girl? all non veggies have bad hygiene? or both? i wonder if vikatan got many letters or comments on it.

in any marriage, food habit compatibility, if it is not there, it is misery. something that we may not have been introduced to so far: is the concept of vegans and those that do not eat cooked food (just raw nuts and fruits). then there are jains who might consider our food smelly and obnoxious.

hopefully, we are also sensitive to these above, and accept that what may be fragrance to one may be smelly to another. the only smell that everyone might agree is unpleasant, is spoilt fish

thank you.

 

[amala]

the west solution is to have 'live in' ie set up a household without the benefit of formal marriage, which may or may not follow.
each one has its own merits.

Kunjuppu mama,

Please allow me your kind permission to hijack this thread to ValliJi and RevathiJi and digress.

I honestly don't understand what the benefits and advantages of cohabitation are, for women. For men its like eating their cake and having it too. All the trappings of marriage without the legal commitment. Who wouldn't want that. Walking out/breaking up is far easier than if one is married. I'm not even sure if alimony/maintenance is involved. I am going to generalise here and say men find it easier to move on after separation. Not so easy for the woman though. Possibly its changed now. Not too sure.

To me it seems like women are on the losing end with living in. I don't see any merit in it at all, unless i was a guy. I would like to hear your views on this mama.

Once again apologies for digressing from the main topic.

 

[kunjuppu]

Thank you amala. You are indeed a delight and ofcourse no issue at all telling you what I think.

First of all, to the rest of the forum, I am not peddling any form of marriage or live in arrangement. But as a human who over the years have seen a few things, I cannot but comment on my observations. If this topic is anathema please skip this post or this thread altogether. Thank you. if you still here, be polite and write polite.

Amla, first of all, in Canada, after 3 years of cohabitation, the couple is considered legally united. Ie married without the ceremony or the papers. The partners, both have a right of the share of earnings, pensions and any other assets accrued during the three years and after. Ok? so that answers one question.

Now to the part: the guy having the cake and eating it too – you know amla, I had an arranged marriage and am the last one who can talk about this from experience.

But I know several, including tambrams of the next generation who have adopted this. suffice to say that they live either in the usa or Canada. Suffice to say, that what I know of these couples, they are very highly educated (for whatever that is worth), and to me sufficiently mature, to agree upon the next stage of a relationship. Short of marriage, but to manage a household.

Sometime this is due to economic circumstances – one household is close to 50% of the expenses, and money could be saved to buy a home. Another is desire and closeness and a pre amble to a formal wedded contract. It also provides opportunities for each other to ensure that they really are compatible – a well dolled up chick or rooster indeed looks different with morning breath and overnight shadows and bags in the eyes – if you pardon the humour.

To a critical eye, coming from india, yes I would say, the guy has everything in a cohabitation. But then, if it is sex you mean, you don’t need to cohabit to indulge in that. youngsters today, in the west or even in india, I believe can indulge in sex by renting a room by the hour or so I was told. Or even in their own homes when their parents are away. It is available free, cheap and easy. Even in Islamic countries let alone the rest of the world including india.

To me, Cohabitation means cooking, cleaning, washing clothes, dishes, shopping, maintaining the household, paying rent together, phone bills , tv and so many mundane chores. Maybe there is something in it to do all these ordinary stuff together. It is all the responsibilities of running a household, but together. A dress rehearsal to reality? Maybe it is a good lesson in life?

From a moral and social viewpoint, india I think, is not ready for it. As a society, our woman have still ways to go, re handling the responsibilities of living alone – they are in most cases well cared for by their parents and I think they should desist from co-habitation, unless they are in their late 30s or so, when age and experience would give them a better perspectives of lives. Our traditional values, though changing, have not yet changed to accepting cohabitation, though I don’t know what would happen if a cohabiting couple rented a flat and moved in next door to any of us here. Will we invite them to our house? Will we be civil? Will we change our behaviour once we know that they are not married per formal process? I don’t know.

Again this is my opinion, and am not peddling any wares here.

In the west, it is a cultural thing, initially born out of protest in 1960s, but today a norm and nobody cares. I hope, to sum up, based on what details I have given above, it is upto the public to judge, whether it is ‘have the cake and eat it’ for the man; or a noose round his nose to husbandry without the fanfare of ceremony.

Amla, thank you again, and gives me great pleasure to answer you.

ps. Finally amla, I know scores of tambrams over the years used to condemn forthrightly stuff such as ic marriages or live ins.till their own son or daughter did it. Overnight their messages changes. I think only that before we condemn anything outright, we should think through a bit, and conclude whether ‘it is for me or not’. if it is not for me, then let it go. many a things we have no control. such is life.

 

[ganeshrev]

Hi Rajesh

Yes the whole story was disturbing.

Shri Kunjuppu,

Yes hygiene standards differ.But when there are certain common principles we agree with in family, it becomes easier.

BTW, I will just share my experience:

Last year I happened to be living in UK for about three months,sharing a room in a house with common Kitchen.I had booked the room through Web ad and I know that the owner of the house(a girl) is Gujarathi whom I assumed as vegetarian (her surname said so).Till I reached and settled in the house, I did not realize that in the other room in the same house, Saudi Couple were staying who will be sharing the kitchen .I realized this when I had come back from office and entered the kitchen and saw the Saudi girl cutting some kind of meat loaf.Immediately I retracted- but the girl got me into conversation.The next minutes were like hell to me - I had to answer her question politely, avoid looking at what she had in hand and what not.I had travelled from India the previous day and had not consumed any proper food and I wanted to cook.

Then I told her that I am a vegetarian and cannot even bear to look at the meat and I will come back and cook once she finishes.(I had my own vessels and cooker).She asked me - "Wont you see meat on Indian shops in Indian roads?".I answered her that I will avoid going through those roads.

Immediately she apologized (there was no need to) and from next day she would cook only after I finish cooking.She left within 10 days of my arrival.During those 10 days, once I locked the room I never came out because the smell was unbearable.

Thanks
Revathi

 

[suresoo]

Dear Amala Ji,

I'm not even sure if alimony/maintenance is involved. I am going to generalise here and say men find it easier to move on after separation. Not so easy for the woman though. Possibly its changed now. Not too sure.

According to recent SC judgement, there is no alimony/maintenance.

"The Supreme Court had on Thursday held that a woman in a live-in relationship would not be entitled to maintenance unless she fulfilled certain parameters."

Live-in partner not a 'keep': Govt protests - India News - IBNLive

Infact the SC judges upset 'Women's Group' by equating Living-In to Keeps.

thanks,

 

[amala]

Dear K mama,

I'm very glad to note that Canada recognises it as a legal union after 3 years. I am still in awe of arranged marriages of your time, my parents etc. Morning breath, bag under the eyes or not you just get on and live with it and actually grow to love your spouse unconditionally beyond superficial physical appearance and all. Doesn't this show South Asians having this amazing ability to love their spouse, whatever the flaws and shows them as deeply responsible, duty-bound men. This kind of culture actually protects women very much more than then Western culture, where if you're not careful/ready, you're thrown in the deep see.

I totally agree with you that many people, TB and others have condemned icm and living in until their kids do it. Then they change but I feel very sorry for them. Think about the predicament their in. They have to change their opinion because their kids thrusted it upon them. A bit like "kari poosu". But like you say, we don't have control of some things and one of the hardest things is to accept something that we have been vehemently opposing, especially when you're chronologically advanced! My heart goes out to parents in that position. All i can say is, it will get better.

Sureshji I can understand living in women not being entitled to alimony in India. I guess they don't want to encourage the practice.

 

[kunjuppu]

Hi Rajesh

Yes the whole story was disturbing.

Shri Kunjuppu,

Yes hygiene standards differ.But when there are certain common principles we agree with in family, it becomes easier.

BTW, I will just share my experience:

Last year I happened to be living in UK for about three months,sharing a room in a house with common Kitchen.I had booked the room through Web ad and I know that the owner of the house(a girl) is Gujarathi whom I assumed as vegetarian (her surname said so).Till I reached and settled in the house, I did not realize that in the other room in the same house, Saudi Couple were staying who will be sharing the kitchen .I realized this when I had come back from office and entered the kitchen and saw the Saudi girl cutting some kind of meat loaf.Immediately I retracted- but the girl got me into conversation.The next minutes were like hell to me - I had to answer her question politely, avoid looking at what she had in hand and what not.I had travelled from India the previous day and had not consumed any proper food and I wanted to cook.

Then I told her that I am a vegetarian and cannot even bear to look at the meat and I will come back and cook once she finishes.(I had my own vessels and cooker).She asked me - "Wont you see meat on Indian shops in Indian roads?".I answered her that I will avoid going through those roads.

Immediately she apologized (there was no need to) and from next day she would cook only after I finish cooking.She left within 10 days of my arrival.During those 10 days, once I locked the room I never came out because the smell was unbearable.

Thanks
Revathi

reva,

must have been awful.

i know of my friends who had similar experience in calgary canada, except that it was a bangla deshi family with whom they were sharing the apt. also to add injury to insult, they had a baby and used to hang the diapers.

fortunately my friends were able to move to another place within a month or so.... one has always to be careful re accommodation when one comes to a new place. caveat is the word of the day.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear K mama,

I'm very glad to note that Canada recognises it as a legal union after 3 years. I am still in awe of arranged marriages of your time, my parents etc. Morning breath, bag under the eyes or not you just get on and live with it and actually grow to love your spouse unconditionally beyond superficial physical appearance and all. Doesn't this show South Asians having this amazing ability to love their spouse, whatever the flaws and shows them as deeply responsible, duty-bound men. This kind of culture actually protects women very much more than then Western culture, where if you're not careful/ready, you're thrown in the deep see..

amla, my mother pointed me this girl and i married her. because i knew this trait of my mother: she was an unsurpassed judge of character, and she knew me, her son with all the warts and faults. it worked for me, without much adjusting as i had no objection to my wife having the freedom to maximize her potential here in canada, which even now she says, would not have been possible in india of those times. she came to canada with hopes and ambitions, and as i consider myself a liberated 'man' i had no problem for many things that someone else might object to. but a working wife is a person in itself and sooner or later commands respect if not for anything else, due to her paycheck. day to day living is mundane often, and tense at times, but one should have a faith in the future.

i do not know how much india has changed for tambram women, re many freedoms. in a joint family this is impossible, atleast i feel so. in thani kudithanam it is possible. this i say, solely due to the structural set up, and i suspect i would never get an honest feedback on this from this forum. the fil/mil would deny it and so would the dil, both for different reasons.i am not peddling one system over the other, except to state it as i see it. i also agree that i may be completely offbase.

of all the tambram families i know in canada, i suspect about ten percent are unhappy couples but stay together for children's sake, financial security, gauravam or they feel they have spent too much time with the same partner, to muster the energy to leave. does this mean all south asian marriages are successes? i leave that judgement to the public.

how much it protects the woman? i should say there is hundred percent guarantee though the nature of that protection could vary as vast as a jail to that of a free bird; protection, but whether it comes from good to bad, again it is a toss up. a husband lets a wife go out with her friends, travel with friends and enjoy certain pastimes or sports that he does not partake - and does not feel threatened with the wife's openness - is a gem, hard to come by and greatly appreciated. one has to let go - if it is yours, it will come back with greater love; otherwise it never was. our men, i think, due to their upbringing, will have a hard time understanding this concept.

on the other hand, we have had killings over the wife supposedly asserting herself by wearing lipstick. her income is needed, but her assertion is not. the vast majority lie somewhere in between. everyone has their point when it feels like the proverbial straw on the camel's back, and then they leave their husband. the poor guy has no clue..

it is very difficult to generalize. i would not give though, south asians that much credit to sensibility, particularly the men. these are spoilt by their mothers and often have no clue as to how the woman they married feels. this is the most common complaint i hear from tambram wives that i know and we have all had very similar values when growing up.

I totally agree with you that many people, TB and others have condemned icm and living in until their kids do it. Then they change but I feel very sorry for them. Think about the predicament their in. They have to change their opinion because their kids thrusted it upon them. A bit like "kari poosu". But like you say, we don't have control of some things and one of the hardest things is to accept something that we have been vehemently opposing, especially when you're chronologically advanced! My heart goes out to parents in that position. All i can say is, it will get better..

amala, my heart goes out to them. i know a very remarkable person whose son married a foreigner, and this one blessed them out of love for the son and when realized that the couple were inseparable no matter what. a fait accompli. yet this one is at the forefront of against ic marriages and such like. i cannot help so sorry for them - what a conflict with an public stand against a practice at home. a constant reminder of a lost love? i don't know. one cannot live on conflict and sorrow. one has to move on, accept the inevitable and find peace. that is my take on such things. one should never be so harsh on oneself to consider anything as 'kari poosu'

as i grow older, i am only fascinated by the world in all its manifestations, and try to appreciate each of it for its own values. in these days of facts at fingertips, i think that wisdom and age do not necessarily go together. the 20 year old with data facts at his fingertips any day speaks louder than the old man who based on long ago experience and rapidly fading memory, insists on being an 'authority'. i feel that again, in my appreciation of chronology, that before i make committed statements, to verify the facts, for of all fools there is nothing like old fools. n'est pas?

 

[Raghy]

Dear Ganeshrev,
Yes..Thats a nice story. The following lines were really disturbing..Practical difficulties of icms...

அருண் டி.வி. பார்த்தபடியே ஆட்டுக் கால் சூப் குடித்துக்கொண்டு இருப்பான். அவனது அப்பா சமையல் அறைக்குள்ளாக ஸ்டூலைப் போட்டு உட்கார்ந்துகொண்டு, கறி வேகும்போதே கொஞ்சம் கொஞ்சமாகக் கரண்டியில் எடுத்துத் தின்று பார்த்தபடியே இருப்பார். தங்கை சாதத்தில் கறியைப் போட்டுப் புரட்டிச் சாப்பிடுவாள். ஜெயந்தியால், அந்தக் காட்சிகளைத் தாங்கிக்கொள்ள முடியவில்லை.

Greetings. My post is not essentially directed to Sri. Rajesh. What is wrong in the scenario? Why Jayanthy could not tolerate it? If someone decides to plunge in a ICM, he/she would be expected to weigh such scenarios, wouldn't one? Jayanthy should have anticipated such scenarios. (or did Jayanthy plan to change her husband after marriage?). I feel this is a bit narrow-minded.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sow. Revathi said -

.....in the other room in the same house, Saudi Couple were staying who will be sharing the kitchen.......Immediately she apologized (there was no need to) and from next day she would cook only after I finish cooking.....

Greetings. In my opinion, considering the girl was from Saudi, she was extremely magnonimous to you. I do not know her religion; if she was a muslim from Saudi, I might even say, it was remarkable! She was there before you; but moved away to accomadate you. I think she was very generous.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sow. Amala asked -

I honestly don't understand what the benefits and advantages of cohabitation are, for women.

Sow. Amala, Greetings. In a co-habitation, women in co-habitation is known as 'defacto'. A defacto has all the rights as any lawfully wedded wife. That means, in a dispute situation, (3 out of 5 is the case anyway) if there are children, the possibly she gets the house (and the car); plus he is obliged to pay expenses for the children, and support money for her if she was not employed.

Just sharing accomadation and expenses is not termed as 'living together'.

Cheers!

 

[ganeshrev]

Greetings. My post is not essentially directed to Sri. Rajesh.
Cheers!

Shri Raghy

I may not be able communicate the essence of what the writer conveys (Then I would have been a writer !!).If others can communicate the story, it would be good!

I request you to read it .

Yes the girl did not think about this scenario before marriage and also she is not considering leaving the relationship - a typical Indian Girl looking to put up with her husband for next 40 years or so.

Thanks
Revathi

 

[ganeshrev]

Sow. Revathi said -



She was there before you; but moved away to accomadate you. I think she was very generous.

Cheers!

She is a muslim.

Just a clarification- Her leaving the apartment after 10 days was planned one though (Although Letting me to cook first in the kitchen was such a good gesture)

She used to ask about India - She had come to England to learn English(Sponsored by Saudi Government!) along with her husband!


Regards
Revathi

 

[Brahmanyan]

This is a different story, but true. My friend S, a Muslim from a Town called Ranni in Pathanamthitta district of old Travancore State on the way to Sabarimala, was working as a Product Manager in Muscat along with me in the same Company. A very good person. He used to say that he was a Rowther Muslim from Tamil Nadu whose families migrated long ago. He married a girl from his own village and brought her to Muscat. We invited S and his wife for dinner. To our surprise she told that she was a strict Vegetarian and had no problem in taking food in a Brahmin's house. She further confirmed all members of her family were Vegetarians, there were many such vegetarians among Muslims in that area. Her logic was simple. When so much of vegetables and fruits were available around them to eat why should animals be killed for food. My friend who was a non-vegetarian, told me jocularly that he had also became a vegetarian by compulsion, because he wife did not know non-veg cooking.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[kunjuppu]

If one thing shows the extent of changing times, is the influence of non whites into the world stage.

Take Barack Obama for instance. In India of today we will shrug it off if a Muslim or Christian or Dalit becomes a PM. Primarily due to our plurality, and the absence of a dominant caste anymore nationally (I would consider the Brahmins as a nationwide dominant class of yesteryears but no longer), the fragmentation of our political representation has ensured leadership emerging from all corners of India.

But not so in the USA where the white population, even though heterogeneous within itself, acts close to monolithic, when it comes to politics or rather, small monolithics. In this context the rise of Obama or several Black or Asian person of distinction to position of influence is nothing short of a miracle.

Below is a rather interesting article focussed on Obama and the development of his political philosophy. It makes very interesting reading, not because of the subject (who demands a read in his own right), but because of how the American process of introspection and curiosity at work in the hands of Prof Kloppenberg. I feel as long as the US continues this tradition of welcoming constant change while at the same time trying to relate it to its roots and founding fathers, it will remain a pre eminent nation in the world.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/28/books/28klopp.html?src=me&ref=general

We had a similar analysis of our early leaders. Nehru was influenced by the best of British thinking and he evolved as a brown Englishman, who I suspect, was often at odds with his love of India, along with his contempt of everything essentially Indian. Gandhi became what he was, due to his experience in South Africa. MK is the last of the Dravidian stalwarts who remembers what it was before and the struggle to reach here and now.

But when I look at the rulers in New Delhi and potential Tamil Nadu rulers, I really wonder what it is that made them? What makes Sonia? Or Manmohan for that matter? Bureacrats have such bland and uninteresting resume, either of life or career, that one can use their biodata as a soporific. But may it not proper to write these guys off because they lack charisma. If we take China as an example, those bland and faceless bureaucrats are sure hurling their country to among the top of the lists, all in a brief period of time.

Who will be our vanguards of change to the mid century and where will they come from?

 

[RVR]

Kunjuppu ji,

Cricket was once an elite game. Even after British left India, it was dominated by Maharajas and other elite people. Nawab of Pataudi was captain of Indian team long back.

India was not winning test series those days.

Now things have changed totally.

An ordinary person from Jharkand has made India really proud. Mahendra Singh Dhoni is definitely an envy of the entire cricket playing nations. He is termed as captain cool by the media.

Australians athletes didn't had even sporting spirit and vandalised washing machines.

Cricket loss makes Oz athletes take it out on washing machine - The Times of India

Australian Captain Ricky Ponting may be replaced for the forthcoming Ashes series against England.

Everything is because one person from a backward state of Jharkand.

The same thing may be repeated in politics also.

All the best

 

[[email protected]]

To: Brhmanyan sir, When I was a 10 year old and one day a Rat was catched in the rat trap and the rat long tail was circuled in the springs and it is very difficult to get out from the trap so I was used a blade and just cut the tail near the spring and the rat just jumped and runaway to nearby detch my muslim friend who is next door seeing the blood from the rats tail and startes crying and started vomiting, from that day onwards he stoped eating nonveg and today his whole family was strickt veg and living in Gulf, I have seen so many satsangies from RSSB are muslims are Veg only. sr.k.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu Ji,

You said:

But not so in the USA where the white population, even though heterogeneous within itself, acts close to monolithic, when it comes to politics or rather, small monolithics. In this context the rise of Obama or several Black or Asian person of distinction to position of influence is nothing short of a miracle.

This is not quite correct. If you look at the voting composition, without the support of the whites, he would not have been elected. His election has created a new term in American politics, 'post racial president'. At the time he was sworn in, nearly 70% of the Americans wished him well, wanting him to succeed.

Regards,
KRS

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu Ji,

You said:



This is not quite correct. If you look at the voting composition, without the support of the whites, he would not have been elected. His election has created a new term in American politics, 'post racial president'. At the time he was sworn in, nearly 70% of the Americans wished him well, wanting him to succeed.

Regards,
KRS

dear KRS,

maybe i should have emphasized on the 'small' monolithics... you have the southern whites still a bloc, the working class of midwest and the yuppie whites of pacific northwest.. is it not because of these group identities that some states are forever republican or democrat?

i agree, that when obama was elected, there was an apparent breakdown of vote banks, except the blacks, and that was a big achievement for him. not sure if he can repeat that in 1912, but if the polls are correct, the next two years, he will be a very different president.

actually we canadians are affected by his restrictive policies. no longer can we cross the border, get a job on TN visa or even get H1B. this was confirmed by someone i met last weekend, whose two daughters had to return to canada, because they lost their jobs, and the US would not approve for issuing new visas.

waiting for Obama's replacement

 

[valli]

Dear Mr Kunjuppu

Thank you very much for starting a thread addressing to me. I feel really indebted to you and Mr Nara. (Mr. Nara - I thought your name to be something as Narayanan or something similar to that but now I should declare that your name is Mr. Naradhar! Naradhar Kalagam Nanmayil Mudiyum!! I sincerely hope your kalagam in most of the threads will end in GOOD!) I haven't participated for so long due to three reasons
1. The thread I first participated was closed
2. My son had appendix operation on Thursday
3. I am not very well versed in Vedas, Smrithis, Shrutis or genetics apart from my real life experience.

Thank you once again Mr Kunjuppu

 

[Nara]

(Mr. Nara - I thought your name to be something as Narayanan or something similar to that but now I should declare that your name is Mr. Naradhar!

Yes Valli, Nara stands for Narayanan, the name given to me at the time of my supposed second birth. You are kind to say what you said, but I think my efforts to provoke some critical thinking has earned me more enemies than have made any difference. Kind words from a few like yourself keep me going.

best regards ...

 

[Raghy]

Sow. Sri. Valli,

Greetings. Welcome to the forum. I hope your son is recovering well.

Cheers!