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There Are 2 Dimensions of Time, Theoretical Physicist States

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tks

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This is not a verified theory yet, but it is around over a decade.
There is no such thing as absolute time , the concept of absolute time is not possible. What we experience is relative time with respect to many factors.

This theory posits that Time is really not one dimension but has another dimension. In other words it has pairs of numbers to define time (like you would have x and y values in a graph paper to denote a point in a paper).

I did not post this in IT/ Tech section because it is strictly not technology. It is an interesting piece of development and written in a way most people could understand.

Source: Big Think
Date: May 9, 2017
Link
http://bigthink.com/philip-perry/th...cience&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=partner

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You can’t really enter into “another dimension” as science fiction would have you believe. Instead, dimensions are how we experience the world. But some aspects actually suggest to one expert, not one but two dimensions of time. If it were true, the theory could actually heal the most glaring rift in physics—between quantum mechanics and general relativity.


That’s according to Itzhak Bars of the University of Southern California, Los Angeles. The normal three dimensions including up-down, left-right, forward-back, and space-time. In Bars’s theory, time isn’t linear, but a 2D plane in curvature interwoven throughout these dimensions and more.


Dr. Bars has been crafting “two time physics” for over a decade now. It all started when he began questioning the role time plays in relation to gravity and other forces. Though the idea of more dimensions sounds bizarre, more and more physicists are considering the idea, because it could allow for the coveted unified theory of physics or "theory of everything" to take shape. This would bring together all the fundamental forces of the universe into one clean, mathematical equation.

Two-dimensions of time would make time travel possible. Instead of being linear, at some point time loops back on itself. In this way, you could travel back or forward in time. It also raises t1he specter of the “grandfather paradox.” This is killing your maternal grandfather, accidentally, before your mother is born, negating your own birth.


So if there are all these extra dimensions, how come we don’t experience them? In two time theory, they’re so infinitesimally small, we can’t see them. In this view, we move through these tiny, balled up dimensions all of the time, but never notice them.


If we were to fashion technology on the subatomic level, we might be able to detect these additional dimensions, Bars claims. Another aspect, the electrical charges associated with certain particles may in fact exist, due to their interaction with these other dimensions of space.


M-theory, first posited in 1995, has turned physics on its head. According to celebrity physicist Dr. Michio Kaku, this is a superstring theory, the only one which can heal the puzzling gulf now inhabiting physics. M-theory contains 10 dimensions of space and one of time, all told.

M-theory stands for “membrane theory.” Some call it the “mother of all theories.” This is a unified theory where the universe is made up of different membranes. With string theory, quarks—the tiniest particles in the universe, are actually made up of vibrating strings of energy. Each vibrate at a certain pitch, much like the strings on a harp.


Each vibration corresponds to a certain particle, a proton, an electron, and so forth. They also account for the four natural forces of the universe: gravity, electromagnetism, and the stronger and weaker nuclear forces. There are five possible string theories, and m-theory fits them all together.


Previous to this, physicists were working with a theory of super-gravity. In this model, the universe operates not as a series of strings but of membranes or “branes.” Mm…branes. M-theory adopted this as well. Today, we think of all of these as different aspects of a single framework, the superstructure of the universe. Basically, m-theory states that string and super-gravity theory can fit together mathematically.


Overall, the details of m-theory remain blurred. “Nobody has yet told us what the fundamental form of m-theory is,” Bars said. A smattering of clues is all that he and colleagues have to go on. The work of current and future physicists is likely to elucidate more. It was m-theory that got Bars thinking about an extra dimension of time. With his two dimensions of time and the 10 dimensions already in m-theory, that would mean that we inhabit a 13 dimension universe.

In two time theory, the four dimensions we are familiar with are just a “shadow” of the six we actually encounter. If this proves true, all of physics will need to be reexamined. Heisenberg’s principle states that you can measure a particle for momentum or position, but not both simultaneously. Why has been a mystery. Perhaps they’re in different times.1


According to Bars, the position and momentum behind a particle are indistinguishable in any particular instant. By interchanging momentum for position, the physics remains the same. Look at a wooden box. Whether you look at its right or left side, it’s symmetrical. Here, the same type of symmetry holds true.


To figure out velocity, we divide distance by time. But if we can swap position and momentum interchangeably that means that each may be given their own unique dimension of time. In this way, the universe may be hiding an extra dimension of time from us.


Bars insists that two time theory is more than just a mathematical sleight of hand. He told the New Scientist, "These extra dimensions are out there, as real as the three dimensions of space and one of time we experience directly." If proven true, it may even help us find out why, after an exhaustive search, we have failed to find axions—the supposed building blocks of dark matter. Bars believes experiments at CERN's Large Hadron Collider (LHC) near Geneva, Switzerland, may ultimately prove his theory correct.
 
Renuka,

Stock market is about to open. May be I will get some insight here. will get back in the afternoon.
 
Renuka,

Did not get any fresh insight about the nature of time though making some quick money.

My point is scientists are beating to death the concepts of quantum mechanics and relativity. There really needs to be injection of refreshing ideas.
 
The Opening Post was about a serious topic area and hence posted in the General Section. It is not an opportunity to chit-chat this to death over imaginations..

It is best to be quiet if there is nothing to add to the discussion based on knowledge. If it is hijacked by chit-chat it only make the forum less useful to a reader. There is a chit-chat section for all kinds of items including imaginations about spirituality (let us not bring that here, please).

One does not have to have serious science background to contribute. But one needs curiosity to learn and be willing to read science related progress from books written for laymen. The so called modern physics was developed about 100 years ago and the field has been doubling every 10 to 15 years. That is exponential growth and real understanding are validated by actual applications that have now come to everyday life.

Even if one need not respect this thread or the forum, let us be grateful the enormous number of inventions we all enjoy as a result of progress in fundamental science.

If one wants to talk about reality from Hindu scriptural teaching (which can belong in this thread) then it is best done by learning the existing teaching properly. Minimally one needs working level knowledge of Sanskrit.

To imagine things and attributing to Sir Sankara or the Vedas or some scriptures is a form of displaying disrespect to the subjects in a very public manner.

It is not necessary that what one writes here has to be exactly right but there has to be an attitude to want to say something that is based on understanding and not imagination. That is the best way to show respect to the field of knowledge and to this forum.

The topic area is about a theory that is waiting to be experimentally verified. These experimental verification often takes years and decades. If a theory is discarded because it did not meet the test of verification then it does not mean there is no progress.

The negative result of Michaleson-Morely experiment proved a pivotal point for major discoveries.

Let us get back to content oriented postings please. If there is none that is fine
 
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Of course TKSji your post is above my pay-grade.
[FONT=q_serif]As special relativity explained, time is relative to each object in the universe. That is why time near a black hole goes slower than the time on a distant planet because since black holes have an immense amount of gravity(therefore, higher acceleration), the rate of time slows down more significantly for the black hole than for the distant planet(This is called gravitational time dilation).

[/FONT]

Gravitational time dilation is a form of time dilation, an actual difference of elapsed time between two events as measured by observers situated at varying distances from a gravitating mass. The weaker the gravitational potential (the farther the clock is from the source of gravitation), the faster time passes. Albert Einstein originally predicted this effect in his theory of relativity and it has since been confirmed by tests of general relativity.
This has been demonstrated by noting that atomic clocks at differing altitudes (and thus different gravitational potential) will eventually show different times. The effects detected in such Earth-bound experiments are extremely small, with differences being measured in nanoseconds. Relative to the earth's age in billion of years, the earth's core is effectively 2.5 years younger than the surface leading to a paradox of alignment with the celestial sphere due to the rotation of the earth. Demonstrating larger effects would require greater distances from the Earth or a larger gravitational source.
Gravitational time dilation was first described by Albert Einstein in 1907 as a consequence of special relativity in accelerated frames of reference. In general relativity, it is considered to be a difference in the passage of proper time at different positions as described by a metric tensor of spacetime. The existence of gravitational time dilation was first confirmed directly by the Pound–Rebka experiment in 1959.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation
 
[FONT=Garamond, Book Antiqua, Footlight MT Light, Times New Roman]Surprising as it may be to most non-scientists and even to some scientists, Albert Einstein concluded in his later years that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously. In 1952, in his book Relativity, in discussing Minkowski's Space World interpretation of his theory of relativity, Einstein writes:[/FONT]
Since there exists in this four dimensional structure [space-time] no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence.
[FONT=Garamond, Book Antiqua, Footlight MT Light, Times New Roman]Einstein's belief in an undivided solid reality was clear to him, so much so that he completely rejected the separation we experience as the moment of now. He believed there is no true division between past and future, there is rather a single existence. His most descriptive testimony to this faith came when his lifelong friend Besso died. Einstein wrote a letter to Besso's family, saying that although Besso had preceded him in death it was of no consequence, "...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one."

http://everythingforever.com/einstein.htm[/FONT]
 
Dr. Bars ideas were published on October 2007. So they are nothing new. It did not get any traction in the scientific community.


Julian Barbour's solution to the problem of time in physics and cosmology is as simply stated as it is radical: there is no such thing as time.

"If you try to get your hands on time, it's always slipping through your fingers," says Barbour. "People are sure time is there, but they can't get hold of it. My feeling is that they can't get hold of it because it isn't there at all." Barbour speaks with a disarming English charm that belies an iron resolve and confidence in his science. His extreme perspective comes from years of looking into the heart of both classical and quantum physics. Isaac Newton thought of time as a river flowing at the same rate everywhere. Einstein changed this picture by unifying space and time into a single 4-D entity. But even Einstein failed to challenge the concept of time as a measure of change. In Barbour's view, the question must be turned on its head. It is change that provides the illusion of time. Channeling the ghost of Parmenides, Barbour sees each individual moment as a whole, complete and existing in its own right. He calls these moments "Nows."

"As we live, we seem to move through a succession of Nows," says Barbour, "and the question is, what are they?" For Barbour each Now is an arrangement of everything in the universe. "We have the strong impression that things have definite positions relative to each other. I aim to abstract away everything we cannot see (directly or indirectly) and simply keep this idea of many different things coexisting at once. There are simply the Nows, nothing more, nothing less."


Barbour's Nows can be imagined as pages of a novel ripped from the book's spine and tossed randomly onto the floor. Each page is a separate entity existing without time, existing outside of time. Arranging the pages in some special order and moving through them in a step-by-step fashion makes a story unfold. Still, no matter how we arrange the sheets, each page is complete and independent. As Barbour says, "The cat that jumps is not the same cat that lands." The physics of reality for Barbour is the physics of these Nows taken together as a whole. There is no past moment that flows into a future moment. Instead all the different possible configurations of the universe, every possible location of every atom throughout all of creation, exist simultaneously. Barbour's Nows all exist at once in a vast Platonic realm that stands completely and absolutely without time.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-09/book-excerpt-there-no-such-thing-time
 
Dear Shri TKS,

I agree there has been enormous progress in science over the last few decades. My intention is to not put it down but I do think at some point there needs to be a shift in philosophy of science to not end in an impasse.

I do believe quantum mechanics and relativity are great leaps of mind but I also believe it is time for another leap.

Space and Time is an interesting area of study and they have yet to be studied in depth. My own beliefs about space and time are aligned with that of our scriptures. I believe they are energies which one perceives till one exists in the physical world.


Our body perceives space and mind perceives time. Whereas by perceiving space one perceives data and pieces of information , one perceives knowledge by perceiving time. Th depth of knowledge depends on how deeply one perceives time.

I do not believe we can physically move to and fro in time because future exists only as a spiritual reality and the past is an illusion.
 
Dear Shri TKS,

I agree there has been enormous progress in science over the last few decades. My intention is to not put it down but I do think at some point there needs to be a shift in philosophy of science to not end in an impasse.

I do believe quantum mechanics and relativity are great leaps of mind but I also believe it is time for another leap.

Space and Time is an interesting area of study and they have yet to be studied in depth. My own beliefs about space and time are aligned with that of our scriptures. I believe they are energies which one perceives till one exists in the physical world.


Our body perceives space and mind perceives time. Whereas by perceiving space one perceives data and pieces of information , one perceives knowledge by perceiving time. Th depth of knowledge depends on how deeply one perceives time.

I do not believe we can physically move to and fro in time because future exists only as a spiritual reality and the past is an illusion.

Sravana,

You are fully entitled to your beliefs. However I do not want to engage in discussing your beliefs.

Individual beliefs or even collective beliefs do not belong in the study of Science. There are models in science but they are not beliefs. All theories and models are subject to verification and can change if the measurements warrant a change. The subject has to be understood by rigorous study. A layman of Science can make progress in their appreciation but they need the right attitude to study properly rather than glibly make comments and reach conclusions.

Same is the case with the teachings of our knowledge scriptures which is validated by direct understanding. The only difference is that unlike science there is a final word that is NOT subject to change. This has to be understood by not imagining but going through proper studies as prescribed in our shastras.

Domain of knowledge scriptures *do NOT* include Science and anyone that confuses the two has not understood either areas. They are all knowledge and are not mutually contradictory.

In all these, religion, pet-beliefs and theology do not have a role because all that is taught is subject to verification of some sort or the other.

No one can put down any knowledge area. If they do they are only exhibiting their ignorance and unwillingness to learn the subject matter.
Glad to know you were not trying put anything down.

However, it is a flippant comment to say that you are going to divine some ideas while doing some other activity. These kinds of comments do not belong in this thread (you can open a thread in the Chit-chat section where you can have you students supporting you). When such comments are entered you are bringing your pet beliefs into other discussions while shifting the focus to you as a person while devaluing the thread for all the readers. That is a form of putting down the forum by being disrespectful. My point is not to attack you but explain so that this point is communicated.

With that said if you do not know something you are welcome to ask questions. If you have something to contribute (not connected to your beliefs) please do.
 
I do not believe we can physically move to and fro in time because future exists only as a spiritual reality and the past is an illusion.

Dear Sravna,

Why should past alone be an illusion and future a so called spiritual reality?

After all logically the past,present and the future are on the same axis of Time.

The mind experiences the present by making references to the past.

Even human body stores cognitive function and memory in the brain and also skeleto-muscular system too has memory.

I have not been playing my piano regularly and recently tried to play some old music pieces I played as a teen and to my surprise I was not really reading the notes on the pages as much..my fingers were moving more from memory of having played the piece before and the notes were mainly a trigger to let the stored memory flow.

Hard to say if everything is an illusion.

Transient and subject to change may be..but even the past did exists for the present to be possible.
 
Dear Sravna,

Why should past alone be an illusion and future a so called spiritual reality?

After all logically the past,present and the future are on the same axis of Time.

The mind experiences the present by making references to the past.

Even human body stores cognitive function and memory in the brain and also skeleto-muscular system too has memory.

I have not been playing my piano regularly and recently tried to play some old music pieces I played as a teen and to my surprise I was not really reading the notes on the pages as much..my fingers were moving more from memory of having played the piece before and the notes were mainly a trigger to let the stored memory flow.

Hard to say if everything is an illusion.

Transient and subject to change may be..but even the past did exists for the present to be possible.
Dear Renuka,

I am not sure if Shri. TKS would welcome this to be discussed here. It just occurred to me that past is an illusion. You may want to start a new thread and I will try to give my views.
 
Dear Renuka,

I am not sure if Shri. TKS would welcome this to be discussed here. It just occurred to me that past is an illusion. You may want to start a new thread and I will try to give my views.

Sravna..use one of your threads in chit chat section.

BTW my point is valid..cos memory is stored in the brain and body.

So that is an evidence of past being a reality.

Anyway redirect my question to one of your threads.
 
Dear Shri TKS,

Thank you for your views. Personally I prefer discussing beliefs because I find discussing what is not properly understood more interesting and also more valuable with respect to increasing knowledge. But as you say each is entitled to his views.
 
Post #9 : My intent was to share articles that could be read by someone who is not an expert. If it is above 'pay grade' of anyone interested to know, it means the original article did not do its job and my estimation about its usefulness is incorrect.

I wanted to respond to this after the no-value-add-chit-chat-message-storm is over. Similar storm happened in the Astrology thread as well. There is no content moderation here so abuse is easy. By calling attention I am hoping this kind of self centered acts are minimized.

---------------------Back to the topic -------------------------------------

There is a lot that is known about nature of time and space in the last 100 years. All these are validated by experiments and operation of many devices. The Mars probe would not have made its way if precise corrections predicted by space time curvature was not accounted for.

Though there is validation of our understanding already why is there a need for newer models of Time as stated in the OP.

The reason is that a unique problem of Physics has eluded many over 100 years.

It is about finding a 'Theory of Everything' that explains fundamental forces from a unified beginning.

Without getting technical and staying at a layman level, a question that comes up often is that how is this so called Brahman which cannot be expressed by thoughts and words result in 'creating' this universe (or parallel universes) with such diversity.

Similarly, by working backwards in Time using what is known today there is a model that says that the universe was born from an 'explosion' of some sort of a single point and termed it by someone as the 'Big Bang'

The same question arises in Science too: How could a single explosion of primordial kind result in such diversity of forces that all seem to be fundamental. Fundamental means something that cannot be further reduced to anything known. Then there is an effort to unification to understand how all these came from single reality. Let me explain the process of unification by an example.

Prior to all these theories there was discovery of magnetism and static electricity long ago ( observed perhaps even by cave men and women) . A set of theories unified these two to say they all arise from same set of fundamental natural laws of Electromagnetism. Light itself was later found to be intermingled waves of electromagnetism. Who would have thought light is related to electricity or magnetism. This kind of establishing a clear understanding is called unification where fundamental forces observed are unified to a higher order reality.

The challenge that has eluded all these years is that the Gravity which is only attractive is not easily unified with other fundamental forces of nature. There are parallel theories of space/time/gravity and Quantum Mechanics describing reality that is not all unified except using mathematical constructs in a theory called String Theory. However that unification seemed strange requiring basic unit of reality being a string vibrating in a 11 dimensions space.

In this effort to unify, there is a theory that is gaining some traction which is that the Time which is an illusion and an experience may be two dimensional. There are proposed experiments to validate or rule this out.

In closing I want to say that lot is known but what is unknown is fascinating. Therefore new models are being proposed with associated ideas for possible experimental verification. In some cases some models can never be verified by any experiments due to limitations of nature itself arising due to other laws of physics.
 
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