Understanding the Vedas - Vedas 105 - A few key teachings of the Vedas

[a-TB]

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Thank you a-TB for your latest post and seeking further views of mine on those.

I shall respond as follows:

First, on Sayana: He studied Vedas under Sringeri Mutt Pontiffs, he was Prime Minister of Vijayanagara Empire and he used over 100s of scholars of Sanskrit and Veda and translated the meanings of all Veda Mantras into Sanskrit word meanings but used ONLY external or direct word meanings. Because over 100 scholars were in his team, the same word appearing in different Veda mantras are given different word meanings (by different scholars) so there is no unfiorm meaning for the same word of the Veda mantra across all Veda Mantras. I do not know whether he used Puranic stories to explain the Veda Mantras or not. It hardly matters – irrespective of whether Sayana used Puranic meanings or not, his translations do not help us understand the spirituality or wisdom in the Vedas because all our scriptural texts including Veda Samhitas and Upanishads require ‘spiritual or adhyathmic’ meanings for us to understand these texts correctly. All Sankara Mutts, Kanchi, Sringeri and others and all Veda Patashalas under the Mutts teaching Veda to students of the patashalas (and our future priests doing all Veda functions for all of us) hold Sayana and his work as the authority. And all our elites and progressives abandon the study of the Vedas as ritualistic and devoid of wisdom. Hence my efforts to highlight SA and RLK and their ‘spiritual meanings’ with an easier to understand book written by me.

Next on Madhvacharya: While you point out examples of his Kena Upanishad verse explanations and other cases to express your disagreements, I take a slightly different view with many of his pronouncements that run counter to my understandings. And that is to respect the ‘greatness’ of Madhvacharya and his vedic contributions & conclude that maybe I have not risen to his level of Vedic understanding and leave it at that. For example, Madhvacharya stated that there are 3 meanings to Veda Mantras: (i) the adhi-bhouthic or external/direct word meanings (ii) the adhi-daivic or related to the Gods and (iii) the ahdythmic or spiritual. In his Rig Bhashyam, where he has translated the first 40 suktas of Rig Veda, he has mainly used the adhi-daivic meanings, related to the Gods. Thus, the ‘tat ekam’ is referred by him as Maha Vishnu. Only in select places he has given the ahdythmic meanings. In that sense, he may still be justified to connect Veda Mantras explained with ‘adhi-daivic’ meanings (pertaining to the devas or Gods, the 2nd of his 3 meanings). Since the Gods in his time, the 13th century CE were Puranic Gods, the “adhi-daivic meanings” of the Rig Veda Mantras of first 40 suktas only (out of 1028 suktas in Rig veda). And the word, Vishnu, (“veveshti vyapnothi vishwam yah vishnuh”) – because he pervades over everything, inside and out, he is called Vishnu. Only at select places, Madhvacharya has given the adhyathmic or spiritual meanings. I have NOT used Madhvacharya’s Rig Bhashya or any of his translations including his “adhi-daivic” or whatever “adhyathmic” of his first 40 suktas. I have only quoted his conlusion of 3 meanings present for all Veda mantras including adhyathmic as being made as earky as 13th century CE which gave added justification of Sri Aurobindo’s justification of existence of such meanings by “direct vision” at first and later by study if the Veda mantras.

In my book and these posts, I have only used Sri Aurobindo’s works and Prof. R. L. Kashyap’s 26-vol translations of all Veda mantras, all using ‘adhyathmic and spiritual meanings’ exclusively for all Veda mantras (without the other 2 meanings stated by Madhvacharya). In that sense, even if I accept all objections raised by you about Madhvacharya & Sayana, no harm is done or no change is needed in the contents of my book or these postings because neither Madhvacharya’s nor Sayana’s meanings of Veda Mantras are used by SA, RLK or TVKS or me. I am convinced that SA, TVKS and RLK works are excellent way to introduce to all Sanatana Dharma followers the spirituality and wisdom of the Veda Samhitas. Since their works may appear as advanced and difficult to follow for many Sanatana Dharma followers who have not studied the Vedas, my book written in an easy readable style and providing overview of all scriptural texts that came out of the Vedas from its antiquated origin of 6000 BCE or earlier to the present days of 2020 CE (which are not covered in SA or RLK works), in my opinion, may provide a good textbook on the Vedas.

Hope these explanations answer your points and helpful.

Dear Mr Narayanaswami :

Thank you for your detailed response. I can readily see from your response that you are an erudite scholar. Upon digging further it is nice to know your scientific training and background.

Literal translations, European's views affecting the translations and commentaries, etc have given a bad name to Vedas in general.

While I am no expert , on digging a bit further the three fold views (Adhyatmic, Adhi-Bouthika, ADhi-Daivika) I got the sense that they have to present the same truth from different perspectives. They cannot be wildly off and contradict each other. There may be two views of a coin from both sides, but it is still the same coin. Same must hold true for three views of truth.

My friend tells me that Sri Sankara in his teaching maintained that consistency,

An attempt by a scientist such as you to clear such confusion is very useful to dispel the myths. I plan to get your book and thereby get a sense of what the Adhyatimic teaching is in the Vedas. Thank you

Regards

 

[renuka]

This reply is in response to an earlier question from Renuka how the RV (1.140.12) meaning includes birth.

Sri Aurobindo has established strict rules and protocols to develop spiritual meanings of Veda Mantras. These include but are not limited to the few shown here: (i) to study the full mantra, not to translate the four padas (parts) of the mantra as though they exist independently (ii) ‘spiritual meanings’ assigned to the same word of a mantra that appear in other mantras must ensure proper meanings for all those mantras and many other suggestions. The word ‘pArayAt’ has only one meaning, namely, ‘to cross over’ or go across or take across etc. The word ‘janAmscha’ has meanings of births from the word ‘ja’ for birth, as ‘jananam’ or ‘janani as mother’ etc. Additionally as we look at the whole mantra, the word ‘nithya’ in the second pada of the mantra, translated as ‘eternal’, with the meaning quoted as ‘eternal progress of motion’. Sri Aurobindo says (see his collected works, vol 14, published by Aurobindo Ashram, Pondicherry) we have infinite births. Even after we reach perfection (or fullness) over many births, it does not end; ‘tat ekam’ may send us back again so that we may with our fullness will be able to help others.

This is my understanding of this mantra from Study of Sri Aurobindo’s works and Prof RLK’s translations from his RV Mandala 1, Book 3, which I have quoted for the mantra in this post and in my book.

Hope this explanation is helpful.

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your reply.

रथा॑य॒ नाव॑मु॒त नो॑ गृ॒हाय॒ नित्या॑रित्रां प॒द्वतीं॑ रास्यग्ने। अ॒स्माकं॑ वी॒राँ उ॒त नो॑ म॒घोनो॒ जनाँ॑श्च॒ या पा॒रया॒च्छर्म॒ या च॑ ॥
rathāya nāvam uta no gṛhāya nityāritrām padvatīṁ rāsy agne | asmākaṁ vīrām̐ uta no maghono janām̐ś ca yā pārayāc charma yā ca ||


The word जनाँ॑श्च॒ as you have mentioned has meanings of births from the word ‘ja’ for birth, as ‘jananam’ or ‘janani as mother’

but if we note there is an candra bindu on the word,that is why I do not prefer transliterations because when we write janAmscha firstly the presence of the nasalization candra bindu isn't emphasized and pronunciation itself would take a different turn.

My concern is..when there is a presence of a candra bindu nasalization sound or symbol, it mostly denotes a sandhi rule and in this case it would be :
जना॑न् + च॒ = जनाँ॑श्च॒

It's rather clear the word जना॑न् is accusative plural for people/mankind and followed by च॒ which gives rise to जनाँ॑श्च॒ which makes sense keeping in mind that ancient seers prayed for general well being of mankind and mostly the plural is used.


In another verse from the Vedas Mandala 03|Sukta. 046|Rik 2

​

as follows:

म॒हाँ अ॑सि महिष॒ वृष्ण्ये॑भिर्धन॒स्पृदु॑ग्र॒ सह॑मानो अ॒न्यान् ।
एको॒ विश्व॑स्य॒ भुव॑नस्य॒ राजा॒ स यो॒धया॑ च क्ष॒यया॑ च॒ जना॑न् ॥

mahān ǀ asi ǀ mahiṣa ǀ vṛṣṇyebhiḥ ǀ dhana-spṛt ǀ ugra ǀ sahamānaḥ ǀ anyān ǀ
ekaḥ ǀ viśvasya ǀ bhuvanasya ǀ rājā ǀ saḥ ǀ yodhayā ǀ ca ǀ kṣayaya ǀ ca ǀ janān ǁ

Here too we see the word जना॑न् and the च॒ comes before the word च॒ and the meaning is translated as "and men" in the commentary of Sayanacharya.


Anyway, I guess here is where intellectualization ends and one has to belief in the word of God and His revelation to the Rishis and Seers...where the grammar of verse states " mankind crossing over" and the revelation given to the Rishis expanded on the "crossing over" word and giving the Adhyatmic meaning of which in this verse denotes crossing over the Bhava Sagara which is understood as crossing over the ocean of repeated lives and deaths.
Only by this the verse would do justice to BOTH the grammar and the revelation.
A revelation need NOT alter grammar to fit in the revealed message...the revelation would come under a separate catergory called a Bhashyam.

So I would have to believe that जनाँ॑श्च॒ means crossing over births.Anyway God knows best.

Summary:

janām̐ś ca yā pārayāc means" mankind crossing over"

Revelation of the Rishis/Seers ( Bhashyam) ..it denotes mankind crossing over Bhava Sagara of Punarapi Jananam Punarapi Maranam( Ocean of Existence and its repeated lives and deaths)

Regards
God Bless you.

 

[R. Narayanaswami]

Thanks very much for your taking time to share your knowledge and expertise of Sanskrit and the Vedas. Such exchanges expand our understanding. Thanks.

I would also encourage you to look at the full mantra. The first 2 padas: O Agni, you gave us a ship travelling with the "eternal" (nithya) progress of motion. And the 3rd pada: our strong spirits and our spirits of fullness (maghOnah). Sri Aurobindo, himself a great scholar of Sanskrit and one who had many "direct visions" (his Integral Yoga, the spiritual and psychological meanings and thedevas all came to him first as "direct vision" and then latter on by his study f the Veda mantras expanded and embellished these meanings). Taking all these and along with your above explanations, this Veda mantra is cited as Vedic authroity for rebirths.

Thanks for sharing your expertise.

 

[R. Narayanaswami]

Dear Mr Narayanaswami :

Thank you for your detailed response. I can readily see from your response that you are an erudite scholar. Upon digging further it is nice to know your scientific training and background.

Literal translations, European's views affecting the translations and commentaries, etc have given a bad name to Vedas in general.

While I am no expert , on digging a bit further the three fold views (Adhyatmic, Adhi-Bouthika, ADhi-Daivika) I got the sense that they have to present the same truth from different perspectives. They cannot be wildly off and contradict each other. There may be two views of a coin from both sides, but it is still the same coin. Same must hold true for three views of truth.

My friend tells me that Sri Sankara in his teaching maintained that consistency,

An attempt by a scientist such as you to clear such confusion is very useful to dispel the myths. I plan to get your book and thereby get a sense of what the Adhyatimic teaching is in the Vedas. Thank you

Regards

Thanks a-TB for your kind and valuable viewpoints.

While your statement that the 3 meanings (i) adhi-bhouthic or direct or external word meanings (ii) adhi-daivic, meaning iof the Mantras as connected with devas and (iii) adhyathmic or inner or spiritual meanings "cannot be wildly off and contradict each other" is a nice requirement, our 'scriptural texts' contain symbols, symbolism and multiple meanings. Thus, the 'spiritual' meanings of Vedas and Upanishads differ so much from the other two meanings that I personally think that one of the main reasons for the negative messaging in the English translations of Mueller, Wilson & Griffith of the 19th century and the Indologists of 19th, 20th centuries is their inability or unwillingness to even consider spiritual meanings or the possibility of such meanings. Our original Rishis taught only inner and spiritual meanings and inner yajna to their initiated disciples, who in turn became Rishis and taught it to their initiate disciples etc. until the end of the Rishi period approached when the Rishis taught the outer meanings and outer yajna to commoners who were busy with other work etc. So, we may have to accept that we may not get the 'identicity' of meanings that we expect from all 3 meanings.

But my additional point is that, "Veda Samhitas explained by external or word meanings only by Sayana & Western authors" whereas Sankara, Ramanuja/Desika, Madhva all used "spiritual meanings for Upanishads" and established the 'jnana and spirituality' therein. I therefore want all Sanatana Dharma followers to properly understand that the Veda Samhitas also have "spiritual and inner meanings". After Veda practice for many years and after deep inquiry and search over many years, I have to conclude that it could ONLY be 'tat kam' or the Supreme who could have connected me with Prof Kashyap in a "by chance" meeting in 2012. And again by His and all our Acharyas' blessings and guidance, I have now written this book.

I am extremely appreciative of your email and to note that you plan to buy the book and read it. If I can make a request, I would like you, after completing reading the book, please do write a review and share it in Amazon and in this group and in any other groups you are part of. Our goal is for more people to read and understand the 'spirituality and wisdom' in the Vedas and be beneficiaries of the Vedic wisdom. I genuinely feel that my book provides lots of authentic information on our Vedas and all our scriptural texts - and all based on Sri Aurobindo, TVKS & RLK publications.

Thanks for all your support

I thank you for your kind words

 

[renuka]

Thanks very much for your taking time to share your knowledge and expertise of Sanskrit and the Vedas. Such exchanges expand our understanding. Thanks.

I would also encourage you to look at the full mantra. The first 2 padas: O Agni, you gave us a ship travelling with the "eternal" (nithya) progress of motion. And the 3rd pada: our strong spirits and our spirits of fullness (maghOnah). Sri Aurobindo, himself a great scholar of Sanskrit and one who had many "direct visions" (his Integral Yoga, the spiritual and psychological meanings and thedevas all came to him first as "direct vision" and then latter on by his study f the Veda mantras expanded and embellished these meanings). Taking all these and along with your above explanations, this Veda mantra is cited as Vedic authroity for rebirths.

Thanks for sharing your expertise.

Thank you sir...
I dont doubt any revelation by any Guruji/Swamiji/ Rishis/ Seers because I do understand that gnosis( art of knowing) is different from art of learning and a revelation is like a flash of messages in the brain and the Rishis etc would write a Bhashyam on that in a total " I am not the doer" format.

Sure..I would read up on what you wrote above.

Since I study the Quran too, i have come across verses which have more than one interpretation.
For eg there is a verse in the Quran which starts off with the word " by the passage of time verily humanity is in loss"

So many link it with a time of prayer and not to miss it but the deeper meaning is revealed when we look at the root word which means squeezed out essence ..so time here has been reduced to its essence which denotes the Present.( the eternal now)

Therefore the deeper meaning would be" by the essence of time(the present/the now) verily humanity is in loss "denoting that we only have the present time and if we do not utilize it verily we are at loss...so its actually asking us to be in the state of mindfulness.

I enjoy deciphering such meanings from my limited knowledge but surely like to read revelation by seers/rishis/gurus.

 

[R. Narayanaswami]

Thank you sir...
I dont doubt any revelation by any Guruji/Swamiji/ Rishis/ Seers because I do understand that gnosis( art of knowing) is different from art of learning and a revelation is like a flash of messages in the brain and the Rishis etc would write a Bhashyam on that in a total " I am not the doer" format.

Sure..I would read up on what you wrote above.

Since I study the Quran too, i have come across verses which have more than one interpretation.
For eg there is a verse in the Quran which starts off with the word " by the passage of time verily humanity is in loss"

So many link it with a time of prayer and not to miss it but the deeper meaning is revealed when we look at the root word which means squeezed out essence ..so time here has been reduced to its essence which denotes the Present.( the eternal now)

Therefore the deeper meaning would be" by the essence of time(the present/the now) verily humanity is in loss "denoting that we only have the present time and if we do not utilize it verily we are at loss...so its actually asking us to be in the state of mindfulness.

I enjoy deciphering such meanings from my limited knowledge but surely like to read revelation by seers/rishis/gurus.

Noted your interesting and thoughtful analysis. Very helpful and useful. My thanks and appreciation to you for your taking the time to share your expertise.

 

[renuka]

One more thing I noted by analysing tribal school of thoughts is they seem to be more aligned with the Universal Consciousness than non tribal humans.

For eg Native Americans have Non Dual Shamanism which describes what we know as " Brahman" in words so profound and lucid which I have not found in any text book so far.

A Native American explained it like this..
" Everything is One circle, its centre is everywhere and its circumference is nowhere"

Such lucid spot on words sans the need for extensive text..really amazing.

 

[R. Narayanaswami]

I agree. Thanks for sharing. I have read many of native American (Indian) writings. The similarity to Dharmic thoughts is amazing.

 

[renuka]

I agree. Thanks for sharing. I have read many of native American (Indian) writings. The similarity to Dharmic thoughts is amazing.

Here is one more...the Naan Yaar/Ko'aham in Native Shamanism...

Once, there was a woman who found herself lost in the desert. She wandered for days under a sky heavy with clouds. Folded in layers of darkness, she stumbled across the landscape, her hands empty and her skin cold. Finally, exhausted, she sank to her knees and turned her face to the heavens. There, she saw that the clouds had opened, revealing a wash of bright stars. She stared up at them. Each one, she thought, has sent its light to me. The glow of each star—even those that died millennia ago—is reaching me right now. But what has the light reached? What am I? What is the truth of me?

Ruiz, Don Miguel . Wisdom of the Shamans (pp. VII-VIII). Hierophant Publishing. Kindle Edition.

 

[renuka]

Personally I feel we imbibe the essence of every school of thought when we have no "thoughts"..it might sound like a paradox but just like the Sufis say , we must be an "idiot of God" to understand the Haqq(Truth)..as in we need to empty our minds of all our preconceived notions and then the "revelations" happen.

Mostly with an empty mind we can really see how much the Quilt of Existence has a thread from every school of thought be it from Vedic to Abrahamic to Shamanism to Tribal and so on.
It's "fluidity" that allows us to to take shape of each vessel yet have no shape of our own.

 

[R. Narayanaswami]

Thanks for all points in your response. My study and practice, teaching my friends and research are confined to the Vedas & hence I will limit myself to sharing my understandings on the Vedas. Your sharing your expertise by your study and research of other religions are, in my opinion, interesting and useful to many readers.

My principal objective is to encourage Sanatana Dharma followers to read and study about the Vedas using the works of SA, TVKS & RLK. If their works appear too advanced, they are encouraged to read my book, "Understanding the Vedas" published and sold by Amazon. They are also encouraged to read all the posts (about 10 to 12 or so) - some already posted with a few more to be posted - that provide the essence of the Vedas. While the book explains how the growth of the Vedas from days of origin of 6000 BCE or earlier to the present days of 2020 CE including the spirituality and the wisdom in the Vedas and our Yajna practices, the book also provides an overview of all other scriptural texts including the 'principal Upanishads, about 10 to 12' that came out of the Veda Samhitas.

 

[renuka]

Thanks for all points in your response. My study and practice, teaching my friends and research are confined to the Vedas & hence I will limit myself to sharing my understandings on the Vedas. Your sharing your expertise by your study and research of other religions are, in my opinion, interesting and useful to many readers.

My principal objective is to encourage Sanatana Dharma followers to read and study about the Vedas using the works of SA, TVKS & RLK. If their works appear too advanced, they are encouraged to read my book, "Understanding the Vedas" published and sold by Amazon. They are also encouraged to read all the posts (about 10 to 12 or so) - some already posted with a few more to be posted - that provide the essence of the Vedas. While the book explains how the growth of the Vedas from days of origin of 6000 BCE or earlier to the present days of 2020 CE including the spirituality and the wisdom in the Vedas and our Yajna practices, the book also provides an overview of all other scriptural texts including the 'principal Upanishads, about 10 to 12' that came out of the Veda Samhitas.

Sure..no problems..i just wanted to share a thought or two for some ideas before we embark on another understanding of your Vedic text.

Awaiting another post for you.
I have a question before I buy your book,..does your book have the Vedic verses written in Devanagari script?
Cos I like the idea of being able to study grammar and gain insight at the same time and could use your book as a text book for some of my students who wish to study more Sanskrit..so Devanagari script would be indeed be great.

 

[R. Narayanaswami]

Thanks Renuka for your post.
As I had said, your post provides valuable info on what you find as similarities in all religious books and is useful and valuable for many readers. I only made the point that I have studied only the Vedas in detail & so will limit my comments to the Vedas only, that's all.

Reg your question: My book is "about the Vedas". It does not contain Veda Mantras at all. Parts of Veda Mantras as needed to explain the points about the Vedas made in the book as needed, that's all. The book provides details of: What are Veda Mantras, who are Rishis, how/when we got the Mantras, post-Rishi and post-Vedic period, Vedangas, Upangas, Upavedas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanishads, dasopanishads (the 10 prinicipal Upanishads and an overview of each of the 10, yajnas, spirituality and wisdom in the Vedas, the organization of Rig, Krishna Yajur, Shukla Yajur, Sama & Atharva Vedas etc. To get the readers to invite Agni, I give the 9 mantras of the 1st Sukta of Rig Veda with devangari script and transliteration in English and the spiritual meaning of the 9 mantras. As the Deva of Divine Will-power, we need Agni's psychological powers to complete tasks with higher levels of perfection. These are the only Veda Mantras (9 out of over 27000 total Veda Mantras) in my book.

I encourage you to purchase the 26-vol Veda Translations of Prof. R. L. Kashyap - which discusses all the Veda Mantras in all the above 5 Vedas - over 27,000 Mantras - with Devanagiri script, spiritual meanings etc. The whole set costs about Indian Rupees 7,500 or so + shipping costs (whether price is increased since I checked last is not known). Please send email with all your questions to: "[email protected]" for further info. You can also write to Dr. R. V. Jahagirdar, Exec Trustee, SAKSHI Trust, Bengaluru at the above email address. This would be a valuable addition to your school library to have all the 27,000 Veda Mantras in Devanagari script and spiritual meanings of all these Mantras in English. To beginning Sanatana Dharma readers, these books may be too advanced, so I wrote the book for them to understand about the Vedas, the power of Mantras, and as the various posts in this site show a general overview of spirituality and wisdom in the Vedas etc. Once they get such a good idea of the Vedas by reading my book , they can then go to an Acharya or priest in their city to learn the Vedas and also purchase additional books as needed from SAKSHI. That is the idea with which I wrote the book. Because, I feel the Vedas, considered as the "original book of wisdom mankind has seen", has come to our generation. It is my opinion that we must take time to understand the Vedas and hand it over to the next generation and ensure that the Vedas are available to posterity.

Hope this answers your questions.

 

[renuka]

Thanks Renuka for your post.
As I had said, your post provides valuable info on what you find as similarities in all religious books and is useful and valuable for many readers. I only made the point that I have studied only the Vedas in detail & so will limit my comments to the Vedas only, that's all.

Reg your question: My book is "about the Vedas". It does not contain Veda Mantras at all. Parts of Veda Mantras as needed to explain the points about the Vedas made in the book as needed, that's all. The book provides details of: What are Veda Mantras, who are Rishis, how/when we got the Mantras, post-Rishi and post-Vedic period, Vedangas, Upangas, Upavedas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanishads, dasopanishads (the 10 prinicipal Upanishads and an overview of each of the 10, yajnas, spirituality and wisdom in the Vedas, the organization of Rig, Krishna Yajur, Shukla Yajur, Sama & Atharva Vedas etc. To get the readers to invite Agni, I give the 9 mantras of the 1st Sukta of Rig Veda with devangari script and transliteration in English and the spiritual meaning of the 9 mantras. As the Deva of Divine Will-power, we need Agni's psychological powers to complete tasks with higher levels of perfection. These are the only Veda Mantras (9 out of over 27000 total Veda Mantras) in my book.

I encourage you to purchase the 26-vol Veda Translations of Prof. R. L. Kashyap - which discusses all the Veda Mantras in all the above 5 Vedas - over 27,000 Mantras - with Devanagiri script, spiritual meanings etc. The whole set costs about Indian Rupees 7,500 or so + shipping costs (whether price is increased since I checked last is not known). Please send email with all your questions to: "[email protected]" for further info. You can also write to Dr. R. V. Jahagirdar, Exec Trustee, SAKSHI Trust, Bengaluru at the above email address. This would be a valuable addition to your school library to have all the 27,000 Veda Mantras in Devanagari script and spiritual meanings of all these Mantras in English. To beginning Sanatana Dharma readers, these books may be too advanced, so I wrote the book for them to understand about the Vedas, the power of Mantras, and as the various posts in this site show a general overview of spirituality and wisdom in the Vedas etc. Once they get such a good idea of the Vedas by reading my book , they can then go to an Acharya or priest in their city to learn the Vedas and also purchase additional books as needed from SAKSHI. That is the idea with which I wrote the book. Because, I feel the Vedas, considered as the "original book of wisdom mankind has seen", has come to our generation. It is my opinion that we must take time to understand the Vedas and hand it over to the next generation and ensure that the Vedas are available to posterity.

Hope this answers your questions.

Thanks Sir.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sir,

Have you read Veda saara Ratnavali by Uppuluri Ganapathi Shastry?

I heard that he knew every shade of expression of all veda mantras.

I havent read it yet...I am not too sure if there is an English translation as he usually wrote Bhashyam in Sanskrit and Telugu.

 

[R. Narayanaswami]

Reply to Renuka:
No. I have not read his works. I know Tamil & Malayalam but mot Telugu.

I learnt the Veda Mantras immediately after my deekshaa before I turned eleven years old. I was taught to conduct the family Shiva Puja soon thereafter. All teaching by my father. And swadhyaya later. I had conducted, and participated in, many major yajnas in my middle life. Having studied Veda Samhitas, sections of Brahmanas, Aranyakas and Upanishads, and BG and Puranas and teaching most of these to my friends, I was still not able to find the wisdom (even though Upanishads are considered 'Jnana texts'). My emphasis was to find the 'spirituality & wisdom' in the Vedas and after deep search and inquiry spread over many years, my "by chance" meeting with RLK in 2012 who in 30 minutes really opened my eyes (probably because of my years of prior practice, study, teaching and deep inquiry within myself). And I am into the study and research of SA, TVKS, RLK works since then. Many open questions seem to get resolved, though the Vedas and all our scriptures show you more things the deeper you look.

My desire to share with vast majority of SD followers, who may have not studied the Vedas due to the 'negative branding' but perhaps tried the positively branded 'Jnana' texts of Upanishads and if they are also searching for the wisdom (like me), I wrote this book, "Understanding the Vedas" that contains lot of information about how the Vedas from early days to present evolved and the various meanings, roight an wrong etc. I thoink my book provides an authentic status of the Vedas from 6000 BCE or earlier ti present 2020 CE.

And trying to post a few essential aspects in these posts (if many have not purchased the book or read the book due to lack of time or whatever other reasons). All my effort is to get as many SD followers to first know that the Veda Samhitas are books of wisdom so that they will then study the Veda Samhitas, through a teacher in their neighborhood, and benefit by Vedic wisdom. While I have read various works by many scholars, Jaimini, Sayana, Dayanada Saraswathi and others, I am now settled on the SA, TVKS & RLK works - and my book which will help them as the book prividing the pre-requisite info and knowledge for them to be able to read those Masters' works little bit easier.

Hope these explanations help.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sir,

You wrote this..."My desire to share with vast majority of SD followers, who may have not studied the Vedas due to the 'negative branding' but perhaps tried the positively branded 'Jnana' texts of Upanishads"

I am surprised to read this...i dont think people have this negative or positive branding feeling.

Its just that Vedas is in Chandas( Vedic Sanskrit) and Upanishads are in Classical Sanskrit..hence Upanishad has a user friendly format because many do understand Classical Sanskrit and also its seldom lost in translation.

Vedic Sanskrit on the other hand is not understood by many..many who do yagnas themselves might not always understand the meanings of the mantras and also Vedas is still very much well guarded and still a very much birth based transmission and also at times gender based transmission.

So naturally people gravitate towards what is available to all types of people regardles of varna or gender or nation or religion, hence Upanishads seem to be " favored"

So its not really about positive or negative..its about what is available to everyone.

Also one more factor, Upanishads dont talk about Devas/Dasyus..so its sort caters to those who prefer Oneness as a school of thought instead of Multiplicity of Devatas.


Btw I have a question..What is the Vedic view on Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva?

 

[R. Narayanaswami]

The negative branding of Vedas as "vedas for rituals, for the superstitious etc." and Vedanta is for "jnana and the educated and the elite" etc. were generally used by a few. The English translations of 19th century whenever the 'direct or external meanings' did not make sense to them attributed the Rishis as illiterate, wandering, nature-worshippers etc. the spiritual meanings is needed to understand the spirituality & wisdom in the Vedas. Many SD followers abandoned the study of the Veda Samhitas.

RV (1.22.16) to (1.22.21) are the 'sahd-vaishnava Mantras. there are many mantras for Vishnu. Similarly there are mantras for Rudra. The famous 'thryambaka mantra' is in RV, 7th mandala. Brhamanspati is also another deva. Vishnu, Rudra, Brahmanaspati are all RV devas. 'tat ekam" (That One) is considered the Supreme (along with all devas Agni, Indra, ...., ensure things move with precision) are immanent and transcendent and permeates all existence.

Hope this helps.

 

[renuka]

The negative branding of Vedas as "vedas for rituals, for the superstitious etc." and Vedanta is for "jnana and the educated and the elite" etc. were generally used by a few. The English translations of 19th century whenever the 'direct or external meanings' did not make sense to them attributed the Rishis as illiterate, wandering, nature-worshippers etc. the spiritual meanings is needed to understand the spirituality & wisdom in the Vedas. Many SD followers abandoned the study of the Veda Samhitas.

RV (1.22.16) to (1.22.21) are the 'sahd-vaishnava Mantras. there are many mantras for Vishnu. Similarly there are mantras for Rudra. The famous 'thryambaka mantra' is in RV, 7th mandala. Brhamanspati is also another deva. Vishnu, Rudra, Brahmanaspati are all RV devas. 'tat ekam" (That One) is considered the Supreme (along with all devas Agni, Indra, ...., ensure things move with precision) are immanent and transcendent and permeates all existence.

Hope this helps.

Thanks.

Then how did Lord Shiva as in Yogesvara, Lingam, Nataraja and also part of Trimurti come about?

Also how did Lord Vishnu as Supreme come about?

Did the Rishis get a revelation that Shiva and Vishnu are not just Devatas but Ishvara concept of part of a trinity?

Surely Vedas allowed updates isnt it?

 

[R. Narayanaswami]

Thanks Renuka for your questions.

These are valid questions. Many more good questions, similar to these, are there as we study ALL our scriptural texts. As you and most SD followers will agree, our scriptural texts themselves are vast and detailed. On top of this, if you look at the various scholarly works on these texts - be it on the Vedas, Puranas, Upanishads or shad Darshanas or the very many regional language versions, it is mind-boggling. All our ancestors, just like we the present generation folks, are always questioning to understand. When someone provides what they consider to be a good answer that they are comfortable with, that answer raises more follow-up questions to the questioner and are raised, answered etc. This applies to not only you as the questioner but I include me also in this category meaning whenever I have questions and some one provides me a good answer etc. I may get follow-up questions etc. Perhaps this is how all of us learn. I have no problem with questions at all & I shall try to answer as best as I know.

That said, I shall ty to briefly respond to your main question(s).

As you well know, we have Vedic devas (devas strictly mean, as you know, powers of light, from the word 'div' to shine, though English translation uses 'gods' as meaning for devas) and Puranic gods.

In the Rig Veda, there is 'tat ekam' (That One) who is transcendent and immanent. Devas with names Agni, Indra, Soma, Surya, ..., Vishnu, Rudra, Brahmanaspati, ... help 'tat ekam' run the manifestation. These 'devas', each and all of them, have 'specific psychological powers' and at the same time have "all the overall powers" of 'tat ekam'. Though in many mantras, Rishis seek specific powers of Agni & Indra etc.

The 'tat ekam' of the Vedas became the 'brahman' of the later Yoga & Upanishads.

'tat ekam' or 'brahman' is defined only as "That One", or as 'neti, neti' (not this, not this). 'tat ekam' is always 'nirguna', always defined as 'That One'. The concept of 'nirguna brahman' to refer to the immanent. transcendent, brahman the Yogis or Vedantins meditate on etc. was used. The concept of Ishwara or 'saguna brahman' to make it easy to visualize and to do 'external worship' for many commoners was defied with Ishvaras for 'srishti, 'sthihi' and 'laya' (the Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva concept of Trinity) was devised. As worship progressed, 'shakthi' or Goddess worship as "Sri Vidya' also was promoted. Then came Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shakthisim. Then the other gods and goddesses etc. etc.

I can go on and on but prefer to stop here.

Please read Vedas 106 where I discuss 'tat ekam' and 'devas' lot more.

I also encourage you, and all readers to read all my posts Vedas 101 to Vedas 110. The first 3 posts were not numbered but are intended to be Vedas 101, Vedas 102, Vedas 103. Vedas 104 onwards are numbered. I will post one more posting as Vedas 111 in the next 2 days which will end this series of postings.

While I am happy and thankful to you and to a-TB to have initiated discussions on my post Veda 105, I also note that all my other posts from Vedas 101 to Vedas 110 have recieved only scant attention and following. Even on Vedas 105, most discussions have revolved around the 6th and last teaching on 'rebirth'. I am ok with that. But I am also wondering whether by these discussions, all my efforts on the other posts Vedas 101 thru Vedas 110, and the yet to be added Veda 111 as the last posting in this series are not receiving their due attention. I am writing these posts so that if readers do not have time to buy and read my book, I can at least provide a few key aspects from the book, absolutely worth understanding by all SD followers, which will help them to spend more study of the Vedas. Spreading the understanding, and therefore study and practice of the Veda Samhitas, so that all will benefit from the Vedic wisdom and the dharma enshrined therein is the purpose.

My purpose will also be achieved if all readers read my book, "Understanding the Vedas'. Lots of information on the Veda Samhitas from 6000 BCE or earlier to present days of 2020 CE, how various scriptural texts and understandings came about and have evolved etc., how we are where we are now etc. are available in my book. Reading all these posts will get a start. Then my book. Then the works of SA, TVKS, RLK etc. The sequence shown is a suggestion. People may neither have the interest nor the time to do all these. But the minimum if they have the time and read the posts, they will get a good start to the Vedas.

Hope this helps.

 

[renuka]

Thanks Renuka for your questions.

These are valid questions. Many more good questions, similar to these, are there as we study ALL our scriptural texts. As you and most SD followers will agree, our scriptural texts themselves are vast and detailed. On top of this, if you look at the various scholarly works on these texts - be it on the Vedas, Puranas, Upanishads or shad Darshanas or the very many regional language versions, it is mind-boggling. All our ancestors, just like we the present generation folks, are always questioning to understand. When someone provides what they consider to be a good answer that they are comfortable with, that answer raises more follow-up questions to the questioner and are raised, answered etc. This applies to not only you as the questioner but I include me also in this category meaning whenever I have questions and some one provides me a good answer etc. I may get follow-up questions etc. Perhaps this is how all of us learn. I have no problem with questions at all & I shall try to answer as best as I know.

That said, I shall ty to briefly respond to your main question(s).

As you well know, we have Vedic devas (devas strictly mean, as you know, powers of light, from the word 'div' to shine, though English translation uses 'gods' as meaning for devas) and Puranic gods.

In the Rig Veda, there is 'tat ekam' (That One) who is transcendent and immanent. Devas with names Agni, Indra, Soma, Surya, ..., Vishnu, Rudra, Brahmanaspati, ... help 'tat ekam' run the manifestation. These 'devas', each and all of them, have 'specific psychological powers' and at the same time have "all the overall powers" of 'tat ekam'. Though in many mantras, Rishis seek specific powers of Agni & Indra etc.

The 'tat ekam' of the Vedas became the 'brahman' of the later Yoga & Upanishads.

'tat ekam' or 'brahman' is defined only as "That One", or as 'neti, neti' (not this, not this). 'tat ekam' is always 'nirguna', always defined as 'That One'. The concept of 'nirguna brahman' to refer to the immanent. transcendent, brahman the Yogis or Vedantins meditate on etc. was used. The concept of Ishwara or 'saguna brahman' to make it easy to visualize and to do 'external worship' for many commoners was defied with Ishvaras for 'srishti, 'sthihi' and 'laya' (the Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva concept of Trinity) was devised. As worship progressed, 'shakthi' or Goddess worship as "Sri Vidya' also was promoted. Then came Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shakthisim. Then the other gods and goddesses etc. etc.

I can go on and on but prefer to stop here.

Please read Vedas 106 where I discuss 'tat ekam' and 'devas' lot more.

I also encourage you, and all readers to read all my posts Vedas 101 to Vedas 110. The first 3 posts were not numbered but are intended to be Vedas 101, Vedas 102, Vedas 103. Vedas 104 onwards are numbered. I will post one more posting as Vedas 111 in the next 2 days which will end this series of postings.

While I am happy and thankful to you and to a-TB to have initiated discussions on my post Veda 105, I also note that all my other posts from Vedas 101 to Vedas 110 have recieved only scant attention and following. Even on Vedas 105, most discussions have revolved around the 6th and last teaching on 'rebirth'. I am ok with that. But I am also wondering whether by these discussions, all my efforts on the other posts Vedas 101 thru Vedas 110, and the yet to be added Veda 111 as the last posting in this series are not receiving their due attention. I am writing these posts so that if readers do not have time to buy and read my book, I can at least provide a few key aspects from the book, absolutely worth understanding by all SD followers, which will help them to spend more study of the Vedas. Spreading the understanding, and therefore study and practice of the Veda Samhitas, so that all will benefit from the Vedic wisdom and the dharma enshrined therein is the purpose.

My purpose will also be achieved if all readers read my book, "Understanding the Vedas'. Lots of information on the Veda Samhitas from 6000 BCE or earlier to present days of 2020 CE, how various scriptural texts and understandings came about and have evolved etc., how we are where we are now etc. are available in my book. Reading all these posts will get a start. Then my book. Then the works of SA, TVKS, RLK etc. The sequence shown is a suggestion. People may neither have the interest nor the time to do all these. But the minimum if they have the time and read the posts, they will get a good start to the Vedas.

Hope this helps.

Thanks a lot for the explanation.

Regarding the post receiving less "attention", I used to write extensively elsewhere on some topics before and at times there would be some who respond and at times no response..it makes one wonder at times but then I realized that its part of sadhana to not be attached to the fruits of our action.

Sometimes what we write might not be read or even appreciated by anyone BUT may be many years later it would become useful to even just one person.
That is not in our hands.

So whenever we do anything its best we try to detach ourselves from response or feedback.

Just submit your work to God and keep writing..Its Him who decides on illuminating anyone and not us.


This verse always reminds me that nothing is in my hands...

"God. There is none worthy of worship˺ except Him, the Ever-Living, All-Sustaining. Neither drowsiness nor sleep overtakes Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who could possibly intercede with Him without His permission? He fully knows what is ahead of them and what is behind them, but no one can grasp any of His knowledge—except what He wills to reveal. His Seat
encompasses the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of both does not tire Him. For He is the Most High, the Greatest"

 

[R. Narayanaswami]

Thanks Renuka for your email. I write 2 points in reply as follows:

1. I am glad that my explanations answered your question.

2. If there was any perception, in my earlier response, of any difficulty or disappointment on my part due to less attention on all my posts, except the "Vedas 105 post", I wish to state that any such perception was NOT intended at all. It was a simple "factual observation". If some readers get more motivated to read those posts based on my "factual observation", that is fine too. While I noted your quotes "that it is part of sadhana to not be attached to the fruits of our action", I wish to state that I have been teaching my friends "precisely that " for the past 40+ years, the famous BG (2.47) verse of Lord Krishna to Arjuna, "karmaNyEvAdhikArasthey, ma phaleshu kadachana, ...". Just like 'tat ekam" connected me with Prof RLk in June 2012, so will 'tat ekam' connect those who must read my posts or my book at the appropriate time. Again, as stated in the "Vedas 109 post" on 'Human beings and Work', in all human activities, the devas do most of the work and the human contribution though crucial and essential is marginal. So I have been teaching and trying to practice all those points stated by you in your reply. Thanks anyway for your time to reply.

I am writing these posts as part of my mission to spread the meaning of the Veda Mantras. And to disseminate the Vedas. Swadhyaya, preservation and dissemination of the Vedas are our tasks so that we hand over the treasures we have received to the next generation. That is all what we are all trying to do.