Untouchability

[goundamani]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

It is very widely known that MS was the daughter of Madurai Srinivasa Iyer. Her mother was Shanmugavadivu, a Veenai vidwan from the intermediate Vellalar caste. Dravidian politicians are very well known to use personal anecdotes and falsehood as communist propaganda to justify everything from quotas (without excluding affluent layer) to other anti-Brahmana acts. Feigning ignorance is hardly believable on the part of someone who is online, and the only explanation seems to be deliberate false propaganda.

MS subbulakshmi's mother is a vellala woman, who married a brahmin male.It's unfair on our part to call her either as a brahmin woman or vellala woman.

And political parties indeed spin many falsehoods. That's why they stay in power.

Ordinary people are free to marry whomever they like. However the conspiracy is exposed when politicians in power, some from parties specifically known to be anti-Brahmana and for "social justice", somehow prefer to marry the women from that community, instead of "social justice" communities, and then intensify their attacks against Brahmanas by agitating for more quotas for their caste *without excluding affluent layer* in jobs, education, govt contracts etc. It clearly brings out the fact that they are of course anti-Brahmana-men, but they sure covet Brahmana women! When exposed the truth will be cited as a conspiracy, but the truth in the end always comes out not withstanding the malicious propaganda.

I bet that already some people have started to believe this theory.:thumb:

 

[fire]

I hope you know in big,modern saloons other caste people also does it.I saw a report in NDTV there are so many aspirants to the sweeping job in UP from from brahmins. Actually,In south for doing these jobs caste alone is not a cause.Their economic situation , their lack of knowledge of other work are also the factors we need to concern.I hope if the salary is lucrative many people try for it.I believe I didn't say caste disappeared in city.caste based Discrimination is almost nonexistent ...Means when u stay with ur friend , or going to rent a house or inviting our friends to our house or party ,or giving some work or taking interviews etc caste doesnt matter.
In big companies contractors(i hope from various castes) are doing maintanence jobs.

I hope you also agree that its not a clear proof to say Vedas are culprit...Ofcourse if want to accept it you have to make some inference.Atleast you agree there is no mention of caste there.I have a question. Do u hav proof Vedas created Varnas? It might have existed even before it was created . It might have stated the then existing practice.Atleast one aspect all believe without asking authenticity of scriptures is the social orders they talked about. I dont think or imagine reciting them ever create problems in this society.The discrimination was atrocious.But I guess its not acceptable to accept whatever said on this without rational arguements.

Nobody will go and beg any common man to accept a job...( It can only happen in some political parties). I guess we speak with the opportunities we have today. If no proper education is availabe or affordable it will be easy way for a person to do his fathers job.Caste also I guess is a factor if they were prevented from attending gurukulas like akalaivan story. Even today some ppl are doing their fathers job for money ( in politics etc ), or without suitable economic condition to afford education or failure in academics(In villages they will take care of the lands while studying.If they are doing gud in academics they will take care of agriculture).

I asked the same questions to my friends .What is the percentage of people do you think will invite a toilet cleaner to his house and give coffee. One said "No one will give" .Another said "If he comes after taking bath ppl will". I think only a few people are doing it. No need to say about marriage.Again i guess ppl like you represent a small percentage only at this point of time.

The point underlined was most people want to preserve caste at present and they represent majority.Thats why politicians makes reservations on caste basis and not only for intercaste marriaged persons.

Again its a common story everywhere we can read...But your previous point was the most severe on calling names.But still discrimination exists lesser than now than it was previously. I agree.Hope education will play a major role in eliminating it.

Let us see..

What is the caste of barbers in towns?What is the caste of people who stitch chappels in town?What is the caste of people who clean government toilets and streets and ditches in metros?What is the caste of people who do poojas in temples in big towns?

I guess nothing much changed in these aspects.When we hear the names of these professions, 9 out of 10 times we can correctly guess the person's caste.But in professions like engineer, programmer,auditor, doctor , lawyer there is a marked difference.There is a change in this aspect alone.



Vedas created 4 varnas.Jathis then were created by people based on varnas. For example vedas created ksathriiya class and devar and vanniyar castes then were created by ksathriyas. Jathis can be traced back to varnas and varnas to vedas.




I cannot give the names of hundreds of thousands of castes along with their jobs.Can only give some examples.

Vannar - washing
Navithar - barber
aiyyar- priest.

Now dont argue that vedas never created aiyyars and vannars.Vedas created brahmins and sudhras. Aiyars are brahmins and vannars are sudhra.



Ok. Then let us assume that vannars willingly took up washing and rest of hindus went and begged them to become doctors and engineers, but vannars refused it and said that they will do no job except washing clothes and they are unwilling to become doctors and engineers.




That's not what i said. I am not talking about discriminating people based on job.Discrimination means unfair treatment.No..no way.

If a trash collector comes to our house, I dont see any reason why he shouldnt be given coffee or even the daughter of the house in marriage. I gave the example of the trash collectors son because I thought it simplifies matters, but now you have understood it as job based discrimination. So let me clarify, i dont see any reason why a trash collector should not be given coffee or daughter in marriage.

Let me give an example.senthil collects trash.He earns around 100 to 150 rs per day by collecting trash.He and a girl fall in love with each other.Senthil goes to her house to ask her hand.senthil's character and family are good.

In this case I would say that it is fair and ideal that senthil should be given both coffee and the girl.(Girl's family, income, caste, status doesnt matter here)



Why not?



If we actually say "100% jobs and college seats are reserved for people who do intercaste marriages", within 1 year castes will disappear.

Thats a great idea.



dalits do discriminate other dalits.For example a barber will consider himself to be higher than a toilet cleaner.



In many villages dalits are still not allowed to walk in streets and are even abused by upper caste kids.There are numerous villages which follow this practice.I cannot name all villages.If you want an example I can cite melavalavu in madurai.Many dalits were killed by villagers and a committee headed by sugumaran went there and found that dalits are treated like dogs in melavalavu and sorrounding villages.



casteism exists at all levels and at all communities.I never said only brahmins are casteist.



Same treatment to n number of people doesnt produce same results.Nobody argued like that.Talents differs from individual to individual .That is not because of his caste or 'birth'.Its because of environment.

Nadars are dalits.They were called as sanars earlier,but they came up very quickly and became rich in recent decades.



You yourself said govt is stupid to ban TV channels.I dont believe in censoring tv channels.As far as hotels are concerned, currently prostitution is illegal in india.So they have raids.In west in many countries prostitution isnt illegal.There are no raids there.In vedic india, prostitution was legal and there were no raids.People were much more tolerant in those days.(BTW, kamal movies certainly arent illegal)



Porn industry is legal in many countries. It is regulated , monitored and accepted as a profession.Even in india, before british, devadasis and prostitutes were tolerated by society.many of them were reputed dancers.




These people are outnumbered by a vast majority who go to movies, watch glamorous actors and actresses and dance for a 'dappanguthu' song.



I would say that todays youth are are far more educated,progressive and successful than the previous generation.They love to have fun and enjoy their life too, whats wrong in it?



Rowdies exist from time immemorial.AIDS can be prevented by sex education.



Only in india.Not in west.

 

[goundamani]

I hope you know in big,modern saloons other caste people also does it.I saw a report in NDTV there are so many aspirants to the sweeping job in UP from from brahmins. Actually,In south for doing these jobs caste alone is not a cause.Their economic situation , their lack of knowledge of other work are also the factors we need to concern.I hope if the salary is lucrative many people try for it.

You are talking about exceptions.Brahmins aspiring for sweeping jobs in UP shows that they suffer a lot there and are willing to come out of the chains of varnashrama.But to argue that economic situation casued dalits to keep on doing their family job is totally wrong.They were forced to do the job for thousands of years.Nobody was willing to teach them or touch them.They could have never got any other job other than their family job.

I believe I didn't say caste disappeared in city.caste based Discrimination is almost nonexistent ...Means when u stay with ur friend , or going to rent a house or inviting our friends to our house or party ,or giving some work or taking interviews etc caste doesnt matter.

What is the community of the majority of employees working in the hindu, TVS, India cements, vikatan and kumudham?In any christian colleges they hire only christians as professors. For example in a deemed university in coimbatore,they only hire nadar christians from south tamilnadu. In many gounder, vanniyar,devar companies they only hire people from their caste. Then how can we say that castes dont matter in interviews?

castes dont matter in renting houses and Inviting friends?Just now in your post you said "I asked the same questions to my friends .What is the percentage of people do you think will invite a toilet cleaner to his house and give coffee. One said "No one will give" .Another said "If he comes after taking bath ppl will". I think only a few people are doing it"

Then how can we say castes disappeared in inviting friends?

If castes disappeared in renting houses how do we still have certain castes living in certain locations?Even in cities dalits still live in slums,muslims live in seperate colonies,brahmins live in certain areas(mayilapore,triplicane), fishermen live in kuppams.Just by hearing names of places and streets in chennai we can more or less correctly guess the caste of a person.

I hope you also agree that its not a clear proof to say Vedas are culprit...Ofcourse if want to accept it you have to make some inference.Atleast you agree there is no mention of caste there.I have a question. Do u hav proof Vedas created Varnas? It might have existed even before it was created .

I thought vedas were uncreated and eternal.Now it seems that castes were created even before vedas.

Even though taking the rationalistic percpective and accepting that vedas came into existence after castes came into existence,can we refuse that vedas gave a religious sanction for castes?can we refuse that citing vedas for thousands of years dalits were oppressed?How does this relieve vedas from the sufferings of dalits?

You say vedas created varnas and not jathis.That's a clever argument.Vedas did not create sakkilian and paraiyan.But they indeed created sudhras who then later became sakkilian and paraiyan.

It might have stated the then existing practice.Atleast one aspect all believe without asking authenticity of scriptures is the social orders they talked about. I dont think or imagine reciting them ever create problems in this society.The discrimination was atrocious.But I guess its not acceptable to accept whatever said on this without rational arguements.

what rational arguments? All I need to do is to cite authoratitive hindu texts written by great hindu saints. All the proof needed about varnashrama, jathis, dalits are given in those books. What i say is just a tip of the iceberg.what was written and what was done was too horrible to beleive.

Nobody will go and beg any common man to accept a job...( It can only happen in some political parties). I guess we speak with the opportunities we have today. If no proper education is availabe or affordable it will be easy way for a person to do his fathers job.Caste also I guess is a factor if they were prevented from attending gurukulas like akalaivan story.

ekalaivan was lucky.He escaped by losing just his thumb.

It's not even dalits being refused education.They were prevented from walking in streets,entering temples.They were forced to do the jobs of their ancestors by kings and panjchayaths.Other than their parents job, they could have never got any other job.Nobody will give them education, water,food.Nobody will allow them inside theri shops and houses.How will then they come out of their castes?

What was done to dalits was nothing but apartheid and genocide in name of god and religion.

Even today some ppl are doing their fathers job for money ( in politics etc ), or without suitable economic condition to afford education or failure in academics(In villages they will take care of the lands while studying.If they are doing gud in academics they will take care of agriculture).

The most wellpaying and powerful jobs will be done by uppercastes.They will the tell dalits "see, I am also doing my father's job.So you also do yours"
even though dalits did not want to do those jobs, they had no option.Either do the job or die from starvation.

I asked the same questions to my friends .What is the percentage of people do you think will invite a toilet cleaner to his house and give coffee. One said "No one will give" .Another said "If he comes after taking bath ppl will". I think only a few people are doing it. No need to say about marriage.Again i guess ppl like you represent a small percentage only at this point of time.

And in the first paragraph you said that caste based discrimination has died down in cities.Now you say nobody will allow toilet cleaners inside their houses.

The point underlined was most people want to preserve caste at present and they represent majority.Thats why politicians makes reservations on caste basis and not only for intercaste marriaged persons.

Forget politicians.I am not defending them.But if they field a candidate, who doesnt belong to the majority community of a constituency,people defeat that candidate.JJ fielded a hindu in vaniyambadi and a muslim in south chennai.What happened?

You say reservations should be given only to people who do intercaste marriages.In previous paragraph you said "nobody will give their daughters to toilet cleaners".How will then intercaste marriages happen? How will then castes disappear? How will then reservations be given to dalits who do intercaste marriage?

I dont think any dalit will refuse intercaste marriages. How many FC/OBC/MBC families are ready to accept dalit son's-in-law and daughter's-in-law?

Again its a common story everywhere we can read...But your previous point was the most severe on calling names.But still discrimination exists lesser than now than it was previously. I agree.Hope education will play a major role in eliminating it.

I never indulged in name calling.If you point out where I did so,I would like to take back my words and apologize.

BTW,Education will play no role in destrying castes.

Daniel pearl the reporter of wall street journal was beheaded by a london school of economis graduate.The hijackers of flights that crashed in WTC were highly educated and rich.

Castes can be killed only by change of heart and continuous propoganda. To give up caste,one doesnt need education.To call a spade as a spade, we dont need a doctorate degree.

 

[fire]

Brahmins need money there .They think they can earn more if they do that job rather than sitting idle or doing the current job.Thats a ground reality. U can say whatever u want apart from it. Do they suffer from varnashrama there? come on. How many brahmins do u think are doing the job of learning vedas and teaching it or advising the govt as a minister?Strictly speaking there is no varna called brahmin as described by vedas.

I think thats not the exceptions.Thats how money is attracting others. I guess many people from India are doing such kind of jobs also in abroad because they offer more money. For a discussion purpose assume the situation where Eng or Doctors are getting less salary and unskilled jobs ( i dont know its a correct word.Plz correct me ) are given some 10k or 20k a month. You will see an enormous number of aspirants for most of the jobs.I cannot ignore the economy factor when one is pursuing one's fathers job. Many people cannot run their family if only one guy is earning.Then how come they can educate their children? They are taking their help and indulge them in their job.I cannot agree that many people doing low end jobs were rich still they were denied education. My point is to put things in perspective.I am not arguing that is gud or correct. U can find intelligence anywhere.Even a single guy is ignored for any reason thats a loss to the country. Nobody were to touch ->It was more unfortunate. Nobody was there to teach -> Ofcourse the failure of the govts. But everybody is selfish . Today also there are so many people doing low end jobs.Many Common men are moving without concerning about them.THere is a govt providing education for all. But who is concerned whether their children are getting education or do they have enough money send their children to school?If such people are given a fixed amount that enables their life going and free seats in any CBSC schools right from the beginning there is a chance to change their life.


I think your arguement is the presence caste based discrimination in jobs.Do you mean to say in the interviews of hindu , vikatan,kumutam,tvs,India cements they will ask ur caste before recruiting people so that really deserving candidates are getting suffered? If yes it should be proved (may be hidden camera ...We hav to take their job)and
legal actions also should be considered.Christian deemed university ( Karunya??) has the minority status and its guareenteed according to law i guess to recruit Christians.I dont know if they are discriminating based on caste. But I guess there are so many well educated ppl in Nadar community and I think thats the most advanced in Tam Christians.Caste doesnt matter if u and I ,or any guy with common sense open a company he will look for profitability.It needs skills. If one finds skill in anyperson he is going to recruit anyone without asking the caste .If he denies a job based on caste its a shame for the company .In that sense i can say there are numerous companies providing thousands of jobs without discriminating on caste basis .

I posted some interactions with my friends to explain there are still job based discrimination. Please dont read toilet cleaner as people belonging to a particular caste.They are not synonymous. There are so many people staying with their classmates in hostels in PGs , rooms even without knowing their caste.If there is a function like marriage or Diwali they are all invited . There is no discrimination at all within the friends.

If the same toilet cleaner would have done some other job ( say electrician or a teacher) ..he can come to our house .We are not interested in his caste . Here We are interested only in our aim.So education certainly gives power to all people doing lower end jobs.

Again one is renting a house or selling a house in a city . One guy from gud economic background is coming forward to offer a gud rent. Do u think he will think " we hav given only 40 lak to this house ....we can loose 8k everymonth till we get our caste people"? Atleast I will not.I guess many wont do it in cities. But i hav to mention there is a discrimination based on religion. I dont know how serious it is esp against Muslims.I saw an add for rent that says 'Only for Hindus' that too in a company.


Even in many villages if you take a street there is a mix of caste people living. In a flat , in a compoud etc do u think only some caste people will be living? I guess only ppl who know chennai well can support / negate the arguement. Is it not possible to go there and stay or buy flats in the areas u mentioned? Will they ask us the caste and drive us away?What about other areas in Chennai?

If fishermen are given a bank job and flats in Ashok Nagar with cars they wont be living in kuppams.I guess kuppam is an area near to sea shore.Thats convenient for them to do job. Again they can face job based discrimination. If they start a gud company no one will feel he is from this caste and we shud not work for them.

What do u mean by "eternal and uncreated"? There is a belief and there is a proven fact. There is some credible ,non biased ,even scientific evidence required to convert belief to fact.I have no comments on ur belief.

If one rationalist claim ' Vedas are brudas.Scriptures are false. There is so much unbelievable things existing in Vedas and scriptures. Its full of exaggerations or false things.Even if i write gr8 abt me and saying that I was existing from the beginning of the earth after 300 years future generation is going to believe it ' How will u counter it ? Has anybody proved Rama existed here hit seven trees at a single shot?Ravana had 10 heads? D.Rastra had 100 children ( B.T.W is it for single wife??) ? Is it the selective acceptability of people to accept what it serves for their political purpose??If authenticity ,proofs are required for above things ,why not for arguements of discriminations. I guess if its said again and again everywhere we will accept it and its very easy to point the fingers to the past. I dont say severe discriminations existed in the past or not. But how ppl put a figure like 'thousands of years'...'From eternal'......'Even b4 eternal'.......

About the wellpaying jobs are u talking of the present or of the unknown past?

If something is pointed out wrongly is it wrong with ppl or wrong with the book?If some body looted money in the name of fund collection for Gujrat earthquake or Sunami victims can we hold Sunami responsible for that looting...Those kind of ppl will loot money in someother way if that wud not hav happened. If somebody is collecting money in the name of his leader (though he didn't order it) who is responsible for it?Who will get arrested? If one book , may it be vedas or kuran or bible if its misused by others certainly it cannot take responsibility.

'Do the job u get or starvation'->exactly......If they are economically empowered this can change. I guess its the present status of India also .Do some work and get money. If u wnt to do research u wont get paid much.U hav to keep ur family happy. So many ppl are kuppai kotting in s/w or bpo or any other industry.We are reacting to environment and its mostly set by economic factors.


Its not because she fielded a muslim & Hindu she got defeated. I guess she fielded a candidate against Nakoor meeran and he won in a by-election.
Even she placed a respective community candidate she wud hav lost. This is nothing to do with caste based discrimination .
I am not saying people are not voting based on their caste...Yes they do. Based on religion muslims and christians do vote. Its because of the political promises they make . Its out of selfishness. If there is a law preventing both this will disappear. Im talking about hindus or muslims or christians and writing for them. How many beggars are Hindus? Muslims?Christians? Why dont we rehabiliate them from our money ?Many wont do it .Many wnt more money with less work . Who offers it will get the votes. Some votes are out of fear and anger that somebody is targetting their community and the same situation may happen to them also.

I dont they castes will disappear. I dont say castes will not disappear also. Only time will tell the answer. What I said for discrimination will certainly disappear.

Its an arguement to emphasise that many people want to preserve their caste atleast at this time. I dont think in ur arguement (All)Dalits will accept intercaste marriages.There are so many castes in Dalits and i guess many people there also preserving it . (Ex . Do u think pallars wedding Kuravars ? Or vannars wedding oddars ? Paraiyars wedding sakliars etc and there is no opposition for that ) ..

You once said which appeared exagerated to me . 'In villages a Dalit will not be called by his name but by using some caste name'. I didnt accuse u of name calling me.Might be i hav to make my statements more clearer.

WTC attacks i dont know this is related to caste...But i guess u r saying education wont change the cruelty inside a man...But education will earn them more money,independence,confidence so it wil help them avoiding job based discriminations.

 

[goundamani]

Brahmins need money there .They think they can earn more if they do that job rather than sitting idle or doing the current job.Thats a ground reality. U can say whatever u want apart from it. Do they suffer from varnashrama there? come on. How many brahmins do u think are doing the job of learning vedas and teaching it or advising the govt as a minister?Strictly speaking there is no varna called brahmin as described by vedas.

Only brahmins work as priests in temples for a meagre salary.Their earnings and family income are horrible, to say the least.I call them as victims of varnashrama.

I think thats not the exceptions.Thats how money is attracting others. I guess many people from India are doing such kind of jobs also in abroad because they offer more money. For a discussion purpose assume the situation where Eng or Doctors are getting less salary and unskilled jobs ( i dont know its a correct word.Plz correct me ) are given some 10k or 20k a month. You will see an enormous number of aspirants for most of the jobs.I cannot ignore the economy factor when one is pursuing one's fathers job.

Indians doing blue collar jobs in abroad is because of money.Nobody forced them to do the job.Nobody refused them education.even if they quit those jobs, nobody is going to care.

But in varnashrama based caste system, nobody did those jobs because of money.Dalits did not sweep streets because they get $10K per month from it.They were forced to do it.If they left that job,nobody will give them any other job because of their caste.They will be outcasted.

Both are not equal.

Many people cannot run their family if only one guy is earning.Then how come they can educate their children? They are taking their help and indulge them in their job.I cannot agree that many people doing low end jobs were rich still they were denied education.

None of them had any chance of becoming rich.Even if very few had become rich, they wouldnt have been educated. Parasurama denied education to karna, only because of his caste. Same was the case with ekalaiva and drona.

My point is to put things in perspective.I am not arguing that is gud or correct. U can find intelligence anywhere.Even a single guy is ignored for any reason thats a loss to the country. Nobody were to touch ->It was more unfortunate. Nobody was there to teach -> Ofcourse the failure of the govts.

Its not just failure of government.It was a disaster for our entire hindu society.It was a system which destroyed one-fourth of the population in India.

If such people are given a fixed amount that enables their life going and free seats in any CBSC schools right from the beginning there is a chance to change their life.

Good idea.

I think your arguement is the presence caste based discrimination in jobs.Do you mean to say in the interviews of hindu , vikatan,kumutam,tvs,India cements they will ask ur caste before recruiting people so that really deserving candidates are getting suffered? If yes it should be proved (may be hidden camera ...We hav to take their job)and
legal actions also should be considered.

I dont know whether they ask for caste names in interviews,but I certainly can say that it's not a coincidence that a vast majority of employees in these companies belong to a certain caste. How else do you explain this amazing feet whereby exactly nadar christians flock in nadar christian colleges and devars flock in devar colleges and brahmins flock in brahmin companies?Some amazing coincidence in work, I Guess.

BTW, I dont think one has to ask for caste's name directly to find out his caste. No need at all. People are really intelligent these days.If we go to villages they will directly ask "what is your caste".In cities it is done more polishedly 'what is your grand father's name? what is your native place? will you eat X,Y,Z?"

Caste doesnt matter if u and I ,or any guy with common sense open a company he will look for profitability.It needs skills. If one finds skill in anyperson he is going to recruit anyone without asking the caste .If he denies a job based on caste its a shame for the company .In that sense i can say there are numerous companies providing thousands of jobs without discriminating on caste basis .

Companies which discriminate and companies which dont discriminate-both exist.I dont know the actual percentage.No survey was taken in private sector employment by caste.I dont know how many skeletons will tumble out of the cupboard if such a survey is taken.

I posted some interactions with my friends to explain there are still job based discrimination. Please dont read toilet cleaner as people belonging to a particular caste.They are not synonymous.

If one takes a survey of all toilet cleaners in india, what will be the percentage of dalits in it?

How many ksathriya,vaisya and brahmin community people can you find in that list?(I know 50 sulabh toilets in delhi are run by brahmins

If a similar survey is taken among street cleaners, cobblers, vettiyans, kothanar etc what will be the result?

There are so many people staying with their classmates in hostels in PGs , rooms even without knowing their caste.If there is a function like marriage or Diwali they are all invited.There is no discrimination at all within the friends.

In the very next paragraph you contradict this by saying "If the same toilet cleaner would have done some other job ( say electrician or a teacher) ..he can come to our house"

After saying this you also say "if there is a function like marriage or Diwali they are all invited.There is no discrimination at all within the friends"

Again one is renting a house or selling a house in a city . One guy from gud economic background is coming forward to offer a gud rent. Do u think he will think " we hav given only 40 lak to this house ....we can loose 8k everymonth till we get our caste people"? Atleast I will not.

Again this is what you said in the previous paragraph.

If the same toilet cleaner would have done some other job ( say electrician or a teacher) ..he can come to our house .We are not interested in his caste . Here We are interested only in our aim.

When you wont allow toilet cleaners inside your house, how will you rent your house to them? In this same thread one member said that meat eaters are not allowed into houses because they are full of 'rajasa energy'.

If fishermen are given a bank job and flats in Ashok Nagar with cars they wont be living in kuppams.I guess kuppam is an area near to sea shore.Thats convenient for them to do job. Again they can face job based discrimination. If they start a gud company no one will feel he is from this caste and we shud not work for them.

So why do dalits still live in slums in all metros?They work all over the city.Why is it that low income,upper caste people somehow manage to find houses in the city while dalits are unable to do so?

What do u mean by "eternal and uncreated"? There is a belief and there is a proven fact. There is some credible ,non biased ,even scientific evidence required to convert belief to fact.I have no comments on ur belief.

That's not my belief.People who support varnashrama do so because they argue that the eternal and uncreated vedas said so.If you are not defending varnashrama then it's fine.

I dont say severe discriminations existed in the past or not. But how ppl put a figure like 'thousands of years'...'From eternal'......'Even b4 eternal'.......

castes are mentioned in the oldest and oldest books of ancient india.Starting from tamil's first book tolkappiyam castes are mentioned.mahabharat, ramayan,vedas,arthashastra all are thousands of years old.castes are mentioned in all these books.Thats why people say 'thousands of years..'

If something is pointed out wrongly is it wrong with ppl or wrong with the book?If some body looted money in the name of fund collection for Gujrat earthquake or Sunami victims can we hold Sunami responsible for that looting...Those kind of ppl will loot money in someother way if that wud not hav happened. If somebody is collecting money in the name of his leader (though he didn't order it) who is responsible for it?Who will get arrested? If one book , may it be vedas or kuran or bible if its misused by others certainly it cannot take responsibility.

Nobody misused anything.People who treated dalits as slaves based on vedas, were not wrong.They did exactly as those books asked them to behave.People who murdered kafirs in name of quran did not go against quran.They acted exactly as quran asked them to do.Christians who burnt witches and stoned adultresses to death exactly followed the command of god as given in Bible.

It is the modern day's apolegetics who try to twist the meaning of these books by trying to give it a more 'reformed secular' look.These books are very clear and explicit in their meaning and intention.

 

[NARAS]

sir - UNTOUCHABILITY was not started by brahmins, but by non brahmins that too against brahmins.brahmins were thus victims of untouchability. during days of parasurama, non brahmins tortured brahmins so much that, parasurama took a vow to eliminate all kshatriyas from the world.this was probably the modern beginning of untouchability. to repent for atrocities commited on brahmins and to protect brahmins in future from these sort of vandalism, non brahmins themselves proposed varasharam. manu who introduced his smrithi bestowing primacy for brahmins was also a kshatriya. varnasharama was thus introduced by non brahmins to protect brahmins & prevent clashes between brahmins & non brahmins. brahmins were the single largest community in those days.
Dronacharya punished ekalavya because he was a non veggie and meat eating was considered blasphemous in those days. a meat eater defeating veggie arjuna would have sent wrong signals to the people. had a brahmin consumed meat, even he would have been punished in the same manner!

you should remember that even religions like christianity, islam who have one common god have failed miserably to enforce equality. in christianity black christians had to face untouchability and apartheid which was many, many times worse than what happened in india! in islam, followers of various sects always go after each other's throat, even though they have common god! in india even brahmins do not have a common god. there are different gods for different sects, castes & so differences were inevitable. magnifying these things will only help enemies of brahmins, hinduism and india. even the constitution and law which ban untouchability, do not define clearly as to what is untouchability!
from days of parasurama, brahmins & non brahmins attacking each other, converting places of worship of each other to their own, have led to mutual opposition. non brahmins trying to enter brahmin places of worship on the pretext that the brahmin temple was non brahmin place of worship once upon a time and was forcibly converted, have only led to more bitterness.basically the culture of brahmins & non brahmins are different. brahmins are pure veggies, where as nonbrahmins are rabid meat lovers. but if places of worship of both communities are allowed to maintain their individuality, with no community trying to claim ownership control over places of worship of other community, that will ensure peace and tranquility. even now anti brahmins like dmk, try to impose non brahmin practices like tamil worship in brahmin temples. whereas even brahmin gods & brahmin priests of rival brahmin sects are not allowed beyond a point into temples of each other, non brahmins controlling these temples and imposing their own rituals is highly objectionable. tolerance, not even respect or acceptance is important if an atmosphere of peace should gather momentum. but this is absent in people like dmk.

REMEMBER TEMPLES IS LIKE A COUNTRY. A FOREIGNER WHO WANTS TO COME INTO A COUNTRY CANNOT CLAIM THE SAME RIGHTS AS THAT OF A CITIZEN OF THAT COUNTRY. LIKEWISE NO COMMUNITY SHOULD CLAIM EQUAL RIGHTS IN PLACES OF WORSHIP OF OTHER COMMUNITIES. IT IS BECAUSE OF THESE SORT OF CLAIMS THAT PROBLEMS LIKE UNTOUCHABILITY ARISE.
IN A POOR COUNTRY IT BECOMES EASY FOR POLITICIANS LIKE DMK TO EXPLOIT THE GULLIBLES AND THUS THESE SORT OF PROBLEMS GET SERIOUS. POVERTY IS THE MAIN PROBLEM IN INDIA. HAD INDIA BEEN A RICH COUNTRY LIKE USA, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IMPOSSIBLE FOR POLITICAL PARTIES LIKE DMK TO EXPLOIT THIS PROBLEM AND MAGNIFY IT. REMEMBER IN US EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS APARTHEID EVEN A FEW YEARS AGO, THE PRESENT CONDITION IS NOT AS BAD AS IN INDIA!!

apart from being a M.A. History student, i have also read, seen, heard lot of history!

 

[murali]

suresh sir,
neenga oru remarkable person!mrifan oru IIT graduate.foreignla pattichurakkar.ava mathiri pattichavana oru mariyadai. enakku oru prejudice undu.history padikaravaalam makku.ongale meet pannanam.mudincha frienda aanumnu aasai.bhagavat sankalpam eppidio.konjam bayama irukku.

 

[hariharan1972]

Great Group

suresh sir,
neenga oru remarkable person!mrifan oru IIT graduate.foreignla pattichurakkar.ava mathiri pattichavana oru mariyadai.

I want to generalise the view. Despite several dis-agreements, i am generally very very impressed with the quality of the discussions in the forum. The general decorum maintained has been of a high order. The standard of writing is remarkable indeed & has significantly added to my own vocabulary.

Hats off & My Salaam to all of you. :hail:

I am pleasantly surprised about the level of knowledge about the finer aspects of Hinduism be it - vedas, practices, tradition, history of brahmins, history of hinduism, movers & shakers in Hinduism -

Very Glad to be part of this group & learn.

I sincerely wish that we go from strength to strength, uniting all members of the community & be a "community portal" in the years to come.

Also i wish that our dream of giving back to the community ( & society too as we go forward) becomes a reality shortly.