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vadakalai vs thenkalai Iyengars and their on going fight

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It is indeed a matter of utter disgust and shame to
see learned and sometimes even revered Iyengars
exhibiting open resentment in such gatherings as offering
the Gadyams of Sri Ramanuja to the Lord at Sri rangam temple
during the panguni uthiram festivals.Iam a vadakalai iyengar
and I was present during this Gadyam offering to the and had the
misfortune of being told by the thenkalai goshti assembled there to
not to open my mouth during the goshti as they think it is they and
they alone who are ordained to do it.I consider it downright uncouth arrogance
on the part of those in the goshti who indulge in such senseless behaviour
It is here in sri rangam the Lord had accepted the poetic offerings of Thirupanazwar
Let these groups come to a compromise soon and leave all their resentments once in for all
and start a joint goshti in future to uphold the teachings of the great founders of vaishnavism
 
Where is the elephant??

I thought its the elephant story!

Good to know that you want Iyengars to unite Vadakalai Thenkalai and all but what about fostering unity for the entire mankind?


Differences in the world are bound to occurs as longs humans exist..so I do not thing there is any life threatening situation here that anyone need to worry about too much.

Was just seeing TV today witnessing 3rd degree burns wound caused by some petroleum jelly bombs in Syria and the pain and suffering of victims.

The world is suffering out there..I guess compared to acute suffering I feel this Vadakalai Vs Thenkalai so called differences is really nothing at all.

Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavantu.
 
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thanks for the reply;iam of course greatly concerned over violence unleashed in some part
or the other in the world but that is international.At our own level, should we not adopt restraint and
peace in praying to the Almighty soulfully that is what I wanted to convey nothing more nothing less please.

thank you once again
 
My understanding of the difference between Vadakalai and Thenkalai is from reading articles in internet sources. May not be adequate for scholarly discussions.

The differences are based on doctrinal interpretations. "The Vadakalai follow the doctrines of Vedanta Desika and Ramanuja, while the Thenkalai follow the doctrines of Manavalamamunigal and Ramanuja".

Vadakalais emphasize the need of Some positive gesture of the individual soul (Jeevathma) to deserve the grace of God and attain moksa. the Vadakalai holds that man has to win god's grace through his efforts and he has to cling on to god, like an infant monkey clinging on to its mother. Which is called "markata nyaya"

Tenkalais emphasize the greatness and overwhelming grace of the Lord to "save His own",He saves the soul on His own initiative; and the devotee should not try to force Him. Lord's grace is spontaneous and He can grant moksa to anyone He wishes.The Thenkalai holds that devotion is all that is necessary and that god will on his own initiative carry the devotee to salvation, like a cat carrying a kitten, which is called "marjara nyaya".

There are about 18 such points of differences (ashtadasa bhedas) with varying degrees of insignificance based purely on interpretation of scholars.

In fact, most people know only this difference regarding the application of the caste marks in the form of 'U' by the Vadakalai and 'Y' by the Thenkalai sects. This is an example of how over- enthusiastic fanatics could blow up insignificant and inconsequential distinctions to abnormal proportions to the level of transfering to animate and inanimate things and taking the dispute to highest Courts of Law.
 
That is the big difference between dharmic faiths and abrahamic faiths. All indic faith practitioners stop with verbal disagreements; no need to say about the rest. The world is watching pakistan, afganistan, egypt, nigeria, turkey, iraq and hundred other countries.

Vadakalai-thenkalai is a local issue and no one will get killed whether it is solved or not.

In our housing society, the board has bought wheel locks to immobilise cars parked without authority, and flouting society rules. Four incidents of murder over parking has been reported in newspapers in the past year in the national capital. Our society is satvik and the lock will be removed on payment of a fine of rs 200.

There is a demand to amend the rule and make the fine rs 200 per day to dissuade those who find the fine amount peanuts for secure parking.

Where is the elephant??

I thought its the elephant story!

Good to know that you want Iyengars to unite Vadakalai Thenkalai and all but what about fostering unity for the entire mankind?


Differences in the world are bound to occurs as longs humans exist..so I do not thing there is any life threatening situation here that anyone need to worry about too much.

Was just seeing TV today witnessing 3rd degree burns wound caused by some petroleum jelly bombs in Syria and the pain and suffering of victims.

The world is suffering out there..I guess compared to acute suffering I feel this Vadakalai Vs Thenkalai so called differences is really nothing at all.

Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavantu.
 
That is the big difference between dharmic faiths and abrahamic faiths. All indic faith practitioners stop with verbal disagreements; no need to say about the rest. .


I used to be under the same impression as you before but not anymore.

Sometime what seems like Inaction is actually Action and what seems like Action is actually Inaction!
 
Where is the elephant??
I thought its the elephant story!
Good to know that you want Iyengars to unite Vadakalai Thenkalai and all but what about fostering unity for the entire mankind?
Differences in the world are bound to occurs as longs humans exist..so I do not thing there is any life threatening situation here that anyone need to worry about too much.
Was just seeing TV today witnessing 3rd degree burns wound caused by some petroleum jelly bombs in Syria and the pain and suffering of victims.
The world is suffering out there..I guess compared to acute suffering I feel this Vadakalai Vs Thenkalai so called differences is really nothing at all.

Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavantu.

Dear Doctor,

"Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavantu"
When will we understand the meaning of the wonderful words or the words of Saint Thaymanavar
எல்லோரும் இன்புற்று இருக்க நினைப்பதுவே அல்லாமல் வேறொன்று அறியேன் பராபரமே
When ego swallows compassion there is no end for human atrocities. Unfortunately every thing is done in the name of Religion and other sectarian reasons, it offers the reason for the atrocities. It is said the dangerous animal in Creation is human being.
He will destroy his own race for no reason. The visual media shows this every day.

Best wishes,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
Does anyone know authoritatively why and when the "kalai" differences arose? Unless one goes into the history of their origin and the groups which formed the two "kalais", it may not be possible to analyze or understand the animosity/enmity between them. What manifested in the 'gadyam' matter in Srirangam seems to me to be more about materialistic matters like which group has sole ownership of and authority over the immense riches of that temple.

Perhaps Shri Nara will be the best person to explain.
 
There will always be devas, asuras, daivic asuras and asuric devas. Why manushyas be different?

Our strong faith in our dharma and unassailable conviction in our scriptures and way of life should drive us to protect our dharma from threats of any form.

Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavantu and எல்லோரும் இன்புற்று இருக்க நினைப்பதுவே அல்லாமல் வேறொன்று அறியேன் பராபரமே are more of wish, expectation, ashirvad and blessings like 'give birth to 16 children and live a great life'. In their TV face to face meet, srisri ravishankar was harping on conquest of ego, zakir naik was talking about infidels and inadmissibility of hindu scriptures and thought.

Fight arjuna, fight, is as relevant today as in mahabharata days. There is no ego concept in non indic religions.

Dear Doctor,

"Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavantu"
When will we understand the meaning of the wonderful words or the words of Saint Thaymanavar
எல்லோரும் இன்புற்று இருக்க நினைப்பதுவே அல்லாமல் வேறொன்று அறியேன் பராபரமே
When ego swallows compassion there is no end for human atrocities. Unfortunately every thing is done in the name of Religion and other sectarian reasons, it offers the reason for the atrocities. It is said the dangerous animal in Creation is human being.
He will destroy his own race for no reason. The visual media shows this every day.

Best wishes,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
Does anyone know authoritatively why and when the "kalai" differences arose? Unless one goes into the history of their origin and the groups which formed the two "kalais", it may not be possible to analyze or understand the animosity/enmity between them. What manifested in the 'gadyam' matter in Srirangam seems to me to be more about materialistic matters like which group has sole ownership of and authority over the immense riches of that temple.

Perhaps Shri Nara will be the best person to explain.
Dear Sangom, there is no clear or authoritative account of how kalai bhedam started. But one thing is clear, even though there was no unanimity of doctrinal view even during Ramanuja's time, they all got along just fine. The originator of one of the illustrious Thenkalai lineage, one to which the famous or infamous Thenkalai shining star Prativati Bhayankaram Anna belonged, was an ardent and devoted pupil of Vedanta Desika. Desikan himself addressed his main ideological opponent, Pillai Lokacharya, in very respectful terms never mentioning him by name and only using the term abhyuktar which means the revered one. The same is the case with Manavala Maamuni and he always addressed Desikan as abhyuktar.

One possible point in time when scholarly disputes turned into irreconcilable schism is when the tradition of Vadakalai Munitraiyam started roughly 300 years -- this is just my guess.

As you trace the acharya lineage up from today, the lineage of Sri Ahobila Matam, a staunch Vadakalai Matam, and that of Thenkalais merge more than 100 years south of Ramanuja and is identical from then on. Thenkalai vidwans insist that Desikan himself was only Thenkalai, and they say that the latter Vadakalai pretenders hijacked him away from them. In turn, the Vadakalais complain the Thenkalais never accord proper reverence to Desikan.

As you have rightly observed, the temple squabbles are all about power and control. When it comes to temples the Thenkalais have the upperhand -- if I am allowed a guess I would say 90% of SV temples are controlled by the Thenkalais and nobody can accuse them of being soft when it comes to exercising that control. Vadakalais are no slouches in the temples they control. Take for instance the one in Thiruvindrapuram. There is a Manavala Mamuni sannidhi outside the temple. When they have MM on purappadu and when they cross the main door of the temple the Vadakalais will shut the door with a loud thump. All this is so ironic because among the basic tenets of SV is that Sriman Narayana will tolerate Bhagavat Apacharam, but will never forgive Bhaagavata apacharam. But, SVs of both kalais just don't care, so much for their unshakable faith!!
 
Dear Sangom, there is no clear or authoritative account of how kalai bhedam started. But one thing is clear, even though there was no unanimity of doctrinal view even during Ramanuja's time, they all got along just fine. The originator of one of the illustrious Thenkalai lineage, one to which the famous or infamous Thenkalai shining star Prativati Bhayankaram Anna belonged, was an ardent and devoted pupil of Vedanta Desika. Desikan himself addressed his main ideological opponent, Pillai Lokacharya, in very respectful terms never mentioning him by name and only using the term abhyuktar which means the revered one. The same is the case with Manavala Maamuni and he always addressed Desikan as abhyuktar.

One possible point in time when scholarly disputes turned into irreconcilable schism is when the tradition of Vadakalai Munitraiyam started roughly 300 years -- this is just my guess.

As you trace the acharya lineage up from today, the lineage of Sri Ahobila Matam, a staunch Vadakalai Matam, and that of Thenkalais merge more than 100 years south of Ramanuja and is identical from then on. Thenkalai vidwans insist that Desikan himself was only Thenkalai, and they say that the latter Vadakalai pretenders hijacked him away from them. In turn, the Vadakalais complain the Thenkalais never accord proper reverence to Desikan.

As you have rightly observed, the temple squabbles are all about power and control. When it comes to temples the Thenkalais have the upperhand -- if I am allowed a guess I would say 90% of SV temples are controlled by the Thenkalais and nobody can accuse them of being soft when it comes to exercising that control. Vadakalais are no slouches in the temples they control. Take for instance the one in Thiruvindrapuram. There is a Manavala Mamuni sannidhi outside the temple. When they have MM on purappadu and when they cross the main door of the temple the Vadakalais will shut the door with a loud thump. All this is so ironic because among the basic tenets of SV is that Sriman Narayana will tolerate Bhagavat Apacharam, but will never forgive Bhaagavata apacharam. But, SVs of both kalais just don't care, so much for their unshakable faith!!

Dear Shri Nara,

Apart from the doctrinal differences between the two "kalais", there is a rather widespread view that one of the two Kalais represents, people from the lower castes who converted to vaishnavism as also brahmin status whereas the other kalai represents original (smartha) brahmins who converted to vaishnavism and visishtadvaita. I have heard this from one Iyengar source itself. Though you had, on an earlier occasion, rebutted the legend of Ramanuja climbing the gopuram and calling upon all and sundry to convert, etc., my point is, is there any possibility of lower castes having gained acceptance into the vaishnavite brahmin group?

Looking at the differences even now practised among christians, muslims etc., based on pre-conversion caste status, it looks to me that the reason for such deep-rooted differences between the two "kalais" could not have been simple philosophical disputes but has to be one of caste-based prejudices.
 


Dear Shri Nara,

Apart from the doctrinal differences between the two "kalais", there is a rather widespread view that one of the two Kalais represents, people from the lower castes who converted to vaishnavism as also brahmin status whereas the other kalai represents original (smartha) brahmins who converted to vaishnavism and visishtadvaita. I have heard this from one Iyengar source itself. Though you had, on an earlier occasion, rebutted the legend of Ramanuja climbing the gopuram and calling upon all and sundry to convert, etc., my point is, is there any possibility of lower castes having gained acceptance into the vaishnavite brahmin group?

Looking at the differences even now practised among christians, muslims etc., based on pre-conversion caste status, it looks to me that the reason for such deep-rooted differences between the two "kalais" could not have been simple philosophical disputes but has to be one of caste-based prejudices.

sangom,

in support of that, i have heard that the thenkalais are converts from 'lower castes' while the vadakalais are converts from smarthas.

a proof that is offered, is that, thenkalais, generally are dark while the vadakalais are 'fair'. though P.A.Krishnan, one of my favourite authors, an atheist, well versed in sri vaishnavism, a thenkalai, is fair and tall.
 
sangom,

in support of that, i have heard that the thenkalais are converts from 'lower castes' while the vadakalais are converts from smarthas.

a proof that is offered, is that, thenkalais, generally are dark while the vadakalais are 'fair'. though P.A.Krishnan, one of my favourite authors, an atheist, well versed in sri vaishnavism, a thenkalai, is fair and tall.

A colleague - both husband & wife vadakalai - and his wife's murai pillai (athan) were both working and staying in adjacent floors. It seems the wife's athai was, for some reasons not known to us, married to a thenkalai man and so the athan became thenkalai. The girl's father being a very orthodox vadakalai refused the murai pillai and chose a groom from his own vadakalai group. Once I enquired why so much emotions that one's sister could be married to a Thenkalai but not one's daughter? There was no convincing reply but by bits and pieces it became evident that the more orthodox vadakalai's used to consider the thenkalais as low caste converts only; exceptions could be made if the complexion and facial features did not have marked thenkalai characteristics!!
 
Sri Vasudev of OP will now be both confused and bemused. We have experts here who have a treasure trove of anecdotes, experiences, neighbours, aunts and sisters from calcutta, delhi, perceptions, inferences, lies and what not, to say nonsense, repeat, utter nonsense (rahul as guru).

Basic fact is every sect - vadakalai or thenkalai, komutti chetti or nattukottai chetti and thousand others, thinks itself different and superior from all others because of the respect they have for the inherited tradition, values, culture. Twisting it to mean others are inferior is a vicious practice started by the divide and rule white kings. The right term is 'different' not 'superior/inferior'.

Differences are not prejudices. Instead of using english words, use of native words - sampradayam, karma, kulam, anushtanam, paribhasha etc will enable one to get a proper perspective sanctified by tradition. Trivialization is tolerated and condoned by us only.


Looking at the differences even now practised among christians, muslims etc., based on pre-conversion caste status, it looks to me that the reason for such deep-rooted differences between the two "kalais" could not have been simple philosophical disputes but has to be one of caste-based prejudices.
 
I was wondering why there is still no response from the Vasudeva ji.

I hope he is reading all responses here and shares his thoughts with everyone.
 
I dont get this..if the darker hued Thenkalais are supposed to be converted Non Brahmins than what about the dark skinned Iyers? not every Iyer is fair.... Were they also some NB converts?

Somehow this skin color theory does not really hold good anymore..these days any caste can be ranging from fair to dark and any shade in between.

Dalits of North India are relatively fairer compared to some "higher caste" South Indians.

I feel skin color has got nothing to do with caste.
 
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Division and merging is inbuilt in sanatana dharma. Modern arm chair theories are only generalizations derived from isolated instances.

It is futile to argue which is superior - whether thenkalais doing sarvanga namaskaram once or the vadakalais doing it two or four times.

There may be priority and exclusive preference for vadakalais or thenkalais in some temples and on specific occasions for the goshtis; there are also occasions when veda parayanam is done by all - iyengars and iyers. Once it is accepted that domain specific rights and privileges exist (in all areas and fields) there will be less heart burn.

There have been many vadkalai-thenkalai marriages to my knowledge in our families since 1900 and earlier. The girls after marriage followed the customs of the groom. This transition has been smooth and accepted for ages - both iyengar V-T or iyer iyengar.

I dont get this..if the darker hued Thenkalais are supposed to be converted Non Brahmins than what about the dark skinned Iyers? not every Iyer is fair.... Were they also some NB converts?

Somehow this skin color theory does not really hold good anymore..these days any caste can be ranging from fair to dark and any shade in between.

Dalits of North India are relatively fairer compared to some "higher caste" South Indians.

I feel skin color has got nothing to do with caste.
 
.... there is a rather widespread view that one of the two Kalais represents, people from the lower castes who converted to vaishnavism as also brahmin status whereas the other kalai represents original (smartha) brahmins who converted to vaishnavism and visishtadvaita. I have heard this from one Iyengar source itself.


[...]


......, it looks to me that the reason for such deep-rooted differences between the two "kalais" could not have been simple philosophical disputes but has to be one of caste-based prejudices.
Dear Sangom, yes, lots of Iyengars think Thenkalais are NB converts, especially the Vadakalai kind, but this view is simply untrue. I have studied this issue and written about it for a long time and in various forums, including this one. There is absolutely no textual evidence that supports this view. For every fair-skinned Vadakalai there are as many dark-skinned Vadakalai and there are as many fair-skinned Thenkalai. So, these anecdotal observations have no validity at all as well.

Most NB SVs are indeed Thenkalais, but not all, there are some Vadakalai NBs as well, i.e. using Vadakalai thiruman and associating with Vadakalai acharyas. If NB converts to SV are Thenkalais Brahmins, then why are there still NB Thenkalais? They must all be Brahmin Thenkalai Iyengars, isn't?

There are no conclusive written record that shows when exactly the final break into two kalais took place. But the doctrinal differences can be seen in the texts starting from, some say, even as early as Ramanuja's period itself. Even less of a record exists who converted to SV when. One famous episode of conversion recorded is one in which Parasara Bhattar (second Acharya after Ramanuja) converted a Brahmin from Karnataka into SV, and he latter became the next Acharya called Nanjeeyar. He is a prominent acharya in the Thenkalai lineage as well as Ahobila Matam lineage. So, the one known case of conversion was a Brahmin to Thenkalai.

Right from the very start SV tradition deemphasized jAti and emphasized bhakti and service. There are Azhvar pasurams that boldly declare that any devotee of Sriman Narayana must be treated as one's master even if he belongs to the lowliest of low jAti, and those who think low of the jAti of a devotee are the real lowly creatures, etc., etc. Periya Nambi before Ramanuja performed the last rites to a Dalit schoolmate and for this reason he faced excommunication from his Brahmin cohorts. There are stories about Ramanuja opening up temples for Dalits. He called them திருக்குலத்தோர் -- sounds like Harijan of Gandhi doesn't, but this was more than 1000 years ago?

But, Ramanuja didn't reject the Varna system outright. On the contrary, he accepted the Dharmashasthre as as the distilled essence of Vedic teachings. All he wanted to do was to be inclusive in SV worship. He still maintained Brahmin exclusivity in temple aradhanai inside the sannidhi which included touching the archa moorthees and preparing food in the kitchen. But, he allocated various other tasks of temple management to other NB castes. He also wanted the NB SVs to be treated with equal respect. There is a document called கோவிலொழுகு that describes who does what when. These NB SVs involved in temple activities came to be known as சாத்தாத ஐயங்கார் apparently a reference to the lack of பூனூல். There is even a recorded instance of a Brahmin SV joining the ranks of சாத்தாத ஐயங்கார் by apparently removing his பூனூல்.

This kind of progressive, and even revolutionary for the their time, thinking continued for another 100 to 150 years. However, there was some rumbling from the Vadama converts right from Ramanuja's time about the diminished focus on Varna. One glimpse of this can be seen with the objection some raised that Ramanuja's retinue included NBs and that he placed his hand on the shoulders of NB returning from bath in river Kaveri. This strain of jAti thinking must have continued as a subcurrent waiting for the arrival of Desikan. When he arrived in the scene he firmly rejected the idea that NBs can be treated as equal. He compared devout and learned NB SVs to temple cow, one may give respect to these individuals, but in the final analysis they are not Brahmin and therefore unfit to be treated as equal.

The division was firmly established. One faction was firmly committed to Varna dharma (vadakalai) and the other (thenkalai) somewhat permissive. But they didn't fight with each other openly as they do today. Under both kalais, when people joined their ranks they didn't get rid of their jAti, just that within Thenkalai tradition they were treated a little bit better. This must be the reason why most NB SVs are thenkalais.

In summary, the kalai difference is strictly doctrinal, the kalai fights in temples are about control and not doctrinal, Thenkalai Brahmins are not NB converts.

regards ...
 
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I dont get this..if the darker hued Thenkalais are supposed to be converted Non Brahmins than what about the dark skinned Iyers? not every Iyer is fair.... Were they also some NB converts?

Somehow this skin color theory does not really hold good anymore..these days any caste can be ranging from fair to dark and any shade in between.

Dalits of North India are relatively fairer compared to some "higher caste" South Indians.

I feel skin color has got nothing to do with caste.

"Conversion" is not the only reason for diversity of skin color. Others could be climate, "intermixing", local mutation etc etc. No race or caste is 100% pure whether in India, US or Malaysia.
 
"Conversion" is not the only reason for diversity of skin color. Others could be climate, "intermixing", local mutation etc etc. No race or caste is 100% pure whether in India, US or Malaysia.
Agreed. Let's face it. We are all mongrels really, no?. Some more so than others perhaps?!...ok..i couldn't resist that one! :D
 
How can one be more or less of mongrel? As the purists would say, adding even one drop of ink to a bucket of water would colour the water.

Of course there is no easy way to get "pure" water naturally, unless it is "killed" via distillation.
 
"Conversion" is not the only reason for diversity of skin color. Others could be climate, "intermixing", local mutation etc etc. No race or caste is 100% pure whether in India, US or Malaysia.

Yes you are right...BTW nice choice of countries ..India..US..Malaysia.

I think the it should be India..US and (Malaysia x2)!LOL
 
100% pure gold is useless; it has no strength. Some alloying or impurities is necessary to make it useful, strong and desirable. But if alloyed beyond a limit, it loses its sheen and value.

This is another topic - both for and against will be attacked in no small measure.

Agreed. Let's face it. We are all mongrels really, no?. Some more so than others perhaps?!...ok..i couldn't resist that one! :D
 
100% pure gold is useless; it has no strength. Some alloying or impurities is necessary to make it useful, strong and desirable. But if alloyed beyond a limit, it loses its sheen and value.

This is another topic - both for and against will be attacked in no small measure.


Technically the same Atma pervades everyone/everything....so everyone is of the same value..it is just that some have better marketing skills and project themselves as valuable!
 
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