• Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Was the Taj Mahal a Vedic Temple?

Status
Not open for further replies.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]We have all heard how the Taj Mahal, which is considered one of the great wonders of the world, was built as the preeminent expression of a man's love for a wife. That it was built by emperor Shah Jahan in commemoration of his wife Mumtaz. However, in our continuous effort to get to the truth, we have recently acquired some very important documents and information. There is evidence that the Taj Mahal was never built by Shah Jahan. Some say the Taj Mahal pre-dates Shah Jahan by several centuries and was originally built as a Hindu or Vedic temple/palace complex. Shah Jahan merely acquired it from its previous owner, the Hindu King Jai Singh.

and moreee........

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_taj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htm
[/FONT]
 
Much heat was generated over this topic in another forum, rather, in several forums in the past. I hope we are not once again starting off a flame-war.

In general, Stephen Knapp and P.N.Oak are looked down upon as pseudo-historians when they say that Taj Mahal was Tej-O-Mahalaya, a temple of Agreshwar Mahadev (Shiva). More concrete reasoning in favour of the theory that Taj Mahal was a pre-Shahjahan structure (not necessarily a temple) comes from two published papers. These are:

1.) Bhat & Athawale's research paper published in Itihas Patrika (mind you, this is again seen as a "Hindu right wing journal" by some). The reasoning provided therein appears to be very solid, and indisputable. Bhat & Athawale even quote from Shahjahan's Badshahnama (court chronicle), and from Aurangjeb's letters to Shahjahan, to assert that Taj was a pre-Shahjahan structure known as Raja Man Singh Palace that was converted and modified by Shahjahan.

2.) Marvin Mills, a distinguished scholar in Historical Architecture, and presently a faculty in Pratt Institute, published a paper looking at the recorded historical events immediately preceding and succeeding Mumtaj Begum's death & construction of Taj, and analysing them from an architect's / civil engineer's view point. Marvin Mills was also the person who smuggled out a piece from Taj Mahal's wooden door, and Radio-Carbon dated it. The results pre-dated the wooden piece with respect to Shahjahan by about 200 years. When Marvin Mills wanted the co-operation of Archeological Survey of India for further radio-dating, the request was immediately turned down (you see, we are a "secular" country).

The story presently in circulation about the "love" between Mumtaz Begum and Shahjahan, is actually said to have been invented by a (muslim) care-taker of Taj in the early 1900s to supply some "masala" to the visiting tourists.

I suggest you do a Google search with the key words, "Marvin Mills" & "Bhat and Athawale", read their papers, and decide for yourself.
 
Last edited:
Was Kaaba a Hindu temple?

Sir, Recently I read an article that Kaaba was actulally a Hindu temple in the time of Vikramadithya. Is this true?

Nandriyudan,
Bagya.
 
it is true according to French Historian Alain Danielou

Sir, Recently I read an article that Kaaba was actulally a Hindu temple in the time of Vikramadithya. Is this true?

Nandriyudan,
Bagya.

According to Alain Danielou, the city of Macca derives its name from the ancient city of Makheshwara ( ie Maheshwara). It wa s a major pilgrimage centre with the famous shiva temple. Mohammaed , Alain says, might have belonged to the priestly family there. If so, what an irony ?
This is mentioned in the book called "A brief History of India" by Alain.
Also he says that at that time arabs had innumerable deities and used to fight amomg themselves because of this. Allah was the deity for the qureshi clan to which Mahmood belonged to. It also had a form. mahmood was influenced by the jews living nearby. Jews had introduced the concept of montheism and formless God Yahweh. This was new to the arabs.
(In reality the first monotheist religion in the world was Zorastrianism which is an offshoot of hinduism becuase it has so much similarity with hinduism and fire worship)
So mahmood was influenced by jewish thoughts on religion including montheism, formless god, growing beard, skull cap, circumcision, Sabbath on saturday (which he turned to worship on friday --which ironically is a hindu auspicious day).
Even now people going to macca on haj will shave their head, take bath and
circumambulate (pradakshin) the gabba which is nothing but a temple containing deities which was shut close to disallow people from seeing inside.
The pradakshin is again ironically done in the reverse unlike in hindu temples.

All the above are written in the book of brief hsitory of India by Alain Danielou. I do not know how true they are.
History indeed is strange .

Alain's web page http://www.alaindanielou.org/anglais/accueil.htm
entry in wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Dani%C3%A9lou
 
Last edited:
Bagya,

As for the "Hindu temple" thing, we are again going back to P.N.Oak and Stephen Knapp's line (who also made several other claims such as Pyramids being Hindu temples, ancient Egyptians and Greeks being Hindus etc. which are highly controversial and debatable: I would not dare go into the discussion here!)

What is known from the Quran, is that at the time of Prophet Mohammad, his tribe, the Quraysh, was in charge of the Kaaba, and Kaaba itself was a shrine to numerous "gods of the infidels" (= not necessarily Hindu). It was reported that there were about 360 idols around the Kaabah (= and there is no historical evidence available today that some of them were indeed Hindu). Mohammad earned the enmity of his own tribe, Quraysh (who were guarding the shrine), by wanting that only his teachings (Islam) be preached at the shrine, and he be accepted as God's messenger. He also wanted all the other statues from Kaaba to be evicted.

The Quraysh chased him away, and Prophet Mohammed and his followers ran away to Madina (=the event is known as "Hijra") in 622 CE to escape the persecution. In 630 CE, Mohammad and his followers returned to Mecca as conquerors. The Kaaba, which got ransacked in the process, was later rebuilt and got re-dedicated as an Islamic house of worship. The annual pilgrimage or the Hajj started from that point. It is said that the initial timber for the reconstruction of the Kaaba came from a Greek ship that had been wrecked on the Red Sea coast.

What does the Kaaba actually consist of?

A Black Stone!

The black stone (Al-Hajar al-Aswad) is built into the Kaaba wall at about 5 feet from the ground level, not very far from the door of the Kaaba, towards one corner. It now consists of 3 large pieces and several small fragments (into which it was formerly broken), stuck together and surrounded by a large ring of stone, which in turn is held together by a silver band. The material of the Black Stone has not been precisely determined. It is sometimes classified as lava and sometimes as basalt. The reason for this difficulty is that its visible surface is worn smooth by hand-touching, etc. (and taking a piece out for analysis is ruled out because of its sacrosanct status). Its estimated diameter is approximately 12″. Its colour is reddish black with red and yellow particles.

From a physical perspective, therefore, the Black Stone does not have any special significance or importance. Umar, who was the second Caliph of Islam, said that he fully realized that the Black Stone was merely a stone and thus had no power of its own to harm or benefit anyone.

As for the reasons as to why we have the Black Stone in the wall of the Kaaba, the following reasons are given:

(a) it symbolizes the starting-point during the circumambulation (=Pradakshina) of the Kaaba, thus facilitating the remembrance of the number of circumambulations.

(b) It is taken as a symbolic expression as the hand of God. During the circumambulations, those who are standing close to the Kaaba touch the stone, and those who are away from it raise their hands towards it, symbolizing the renewal of their pledge of allegiance with the Lord of the Kaaba (=Allah).

This is how it looks:



Now, don't say that it looks like the base of a Shivalingam, or the Yoni image of some Hindu temples (by the way, Lingam / Yoni worship existed in other religions too)! That requires a lot of historical evidence!!

As for the "Hindu like" idols etc. discovered at various regions of the middle-east, Mediterranian, Balkans etc., there can be two possibilities:

1.) Traders from India moved in all directions even in 3000 B.C. It is possible that these trader colonies had constructed some temples for their own community-use in distant parts of the world. In countries of south-east Asia, there were even Hindu migrants who established kingdoms in ancient times, and constructed huge temple complexes (Borobodur, Angkor Vat etc.)

2.) There had been (and have been) religions all over the world, where Sun, Moon and the stars, and also several kinds of animals were / are worshipped. Some of these religions also had / have rich accompanying mythologies (Holmer's Odyssey etc.). There can be similarities between these mythologies and the Hindu mythology. There may even be some borrowing here and there! But to say that every body was a Hindu in the ancient times requires lot of historical evidence, which is simply unavailable at this point of time.
 
Last edited:
A Movie For You!

For more information, I suggest you watch the critically acclaimed movie, "The Message", about the life and times of Prophet Mohammad, which is based on Islamic writings. The DVD is very much available in Bangalore (and must be so in Chennai).

 
Yeoman's service ...

kspv,
I could'nt thank you enough for your post. It is time that we took our history into our own hands. I am sick and tired of "Indophiles" and "New Age" nuts who co-opt our lore, our traditions, and our history. They publish all this cock-and-bull and do great damage to our civilization while claiming to praise/popularize it.
People who propagate falsehood (no matter how flattering the falsehood) do disservice to our society in the long-term.
I believe that we bear a responsibility to filter our right-wing propaganda and historical fiction - otherwise this site is going to lose credibility and stature.
For my part I find Alain Danielou's version of comparative religion (as represented in Kashyap's post above) very thin and flimsy.
I firmly believe in what Santayana phrased so elegantly (even if it sounds 'retro' in the 21st century!):
"Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer. There is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness."
I refer readers back to my earlier post where I questioned the "neutrality" of "Western sociologists (read: Indologists/Indophiles/historians etc etc)"
 
Thanks

Dear Kashyap ji and Kspv ji
Thanks for all the info you gave on Kaaba temple. I live in Melbourne. I don't know if the movie you mentioned will be available here. Let me try.
I read all the articles written by AMRajagopaln ji of Kumudam Jothidam. He once wrote that Baghdad is the place where naragasura was killed by Lord Krishna and that place was originally called as Bagathjyothikam. When the first Deepavali was celebrated there by Bagadhaththan(son of naragasuran), Krishna named the city after him and hence Baghdad. Could I have more news on this?
AMR ji also mentioned once that California could be Kabilaranyam(of Kabila munivar). Could someone explain more about this too, please?
Nandriyudan
Bagya
 
BAAM,

I would be better off remembering that Santayana's quote. Thank you very much!

Bagya,

I do not intend to question the scholarship of Thiru A.M.Rajagopalan. Without criticizing or contradicting anybody, I am putting down here the following information available with me:

There exists a city in India with the name, "Prag Jyothishya Pura" (Prag = eastern, Jyothishya=astrology, Pura=town), which till date very proudly advertises its legacy of Narakasura and Bhagadatta. This beautiful city located on the banks of the River Brahmaputra (which in itself is spectacular), is a state capital and the headquarters of a District called Kamarupa, and is also the gateway to the north-eastern India.

While being a concrete jungle like any other city in India with its pubs, restaurants, discos, shopping malls, medical & engineering colleges including an IIT, and apartment-complexes, the city also lodges 14 hillocks, 11 dense forests, and three wetlands (out of which, one, Deepar Bil, happens to be a Ramsar Site). The city's 12 lakh people share space with about 1,500 wildlife species including rare birds, the highest for any urban centre across the globe.

Amongst the 14 hillocks of the city is the Nilachal Hill (= Indraneela Parvatha of the Narakasura story). A neighbouring hillock, Narakasura Hill, has the remnants of a fort, which the locals say was the fort of Narakasura.

The hillock, however, is more famous for Kamakhya, a Shakthi Peetham (=where Shiva's consort Sati's private part is said to have fallen after the Daksha Yajna). It is a site for Tantric worship for both Hindus and Buddhists (Vajrayana). Kamakhya, dated to 2nd / 3rd Century A.D., contains a Yoni image (covered with a cloth and flowers since it is a private part), worshipped with meat and alcohol. The sacrifices are carried out by the Pandas (=Brahmins) of the temple. Human sacrifice was in vogue till the 1920s, whereupon the British Collectors of the area took stringent measures to stop it. Not withstanding this, even now people dread to venture into the temple during the night. Incidentally, B.B.C. covered the practice of 'Nara Bali' at Kamakhya in one of its programs.

Kamkhya Temple:



South Indians visiting the temple usually get put off by the gore (=Vamachara, or the "left-handed worship"), and also get dissatisfied because they could not get a glimpse of "the diety" (not knowing that there is really no "diety" there; only an image of the Yoni, which is covered up).

Sri Sri Jayendra Saraswathi was here in 1997-98 for about 15 days. During his stay, he also inaugurated and consecrated a Kamakoti Peetham owned temple-complex called Purva Thirupathi Balaji Mandir in the same city, which later became quite popular. Purva Thirupathi Balaji Mandir's affairs today are being looked after by Mr.Subramanyam, who happens to be a Tambram who retired as the DGP of the state.

Holiest of the days in Kamakhya is the Ambuvasi Amavasya, which is supposed to be the period of the Goddess menstruating. The temple pond becomes red, and so does the cloth covering the Yoni image (I personally think this is because of the blood from the animal sacrifices). Tantrics from all over India converge on these days at Kamakhya, and every cave, nook and corner on the hill-top is filled with intoxicated Tantrics with their matted hair and Trishuls. The stained cloth becomes a prized possession, and its pieces are distributed amongst officials, politicians, V.V.I.P.s etc.

Tantrics at Kamakhya:





In general, the District of Kamarupa carries a reputation for witchcraft. There is also a rival to the Kamakhya temple in the same District known as Madana Kamadev, where phallus-worship is practiced. There also exists an area called Mayang (Maya + Ang) in Kamarupa where, even in these modern times, people are hesitant to venture because of the fear of witchcraft.

Madana Kamadev:



Most temples in Kamarupa are of the 'Bila' type (underground caves) including Kamakhya, Umananda, etc. The Gopuram which you are seeing in one of the above pictures, is actually an entrance to the underground cave of the Kamakhya, which is quite dark & damp inside and may scare you if you are claustrophobic (you will find eerie characters sitting inside by dozens). You also find Goddesses such as Ugra Tara, who are not usually worshipped in Satvic Hinduism, being worshipped in these parts. Even in malls, shopping complexes, and residences of its denizens, Yoni image gets worshipped (which is actually awkward to get used to in the beginning for an outsider). You would usually notice an Old Monk rum bottle infront of the image, and on auspicious days, some animal meat kept in a plantain leaf.

The city also contains the earliest seat of astrology (=hence "Jyothishyapura"), the Navagraha Temple, on the top of another hillock, the Chitrachal. A Vaishnavite (=Satvic) shrine, the Ashram of Vasistha (pronounced as 'Bosistha', as 'v'-s become 'b'-s, and 'a'-s become 'o'-s in the east Indian languages), which presents very serene surroundings, is also in the city.

Since the said city contains a big betelnut ("Guwa") market ("Haat"), it has come to be called in modern times as Guwahati (= betelnut market). The most recent National Games (33rd - 2007) were held there! You would find the names "Prag" and "Pragjyothish" everywhere in the city, and the two Assam Tourism Department's river cruisers which are used for taking around the tourists over the River Brahmaputra are named as "Narakasura" and "Bhagadatta."

If you deny this rich folklore of an Indian State, and instead place Pragjyothishyapura in Iraq, I am sure you would be causing huge resentment in Assam ;-). I hope no Assamese Brahmin visits this forum!

Please visit Assam when you come next time to India. I promise that the trip will be worthwhile! For more information, visit the following link.

[SIZE=-1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guwahati

As far as Kapila's Ashram is concerned, it is said to be near Thirupathi at Kapilatheertham on the way to Thirumala. As for California, it derives its name from the mythological queen of Black Amazonians, Queen Califia, and certainly not from the sage Kapila.
[/SIZE]
 
Last edited:
thanks

dear kspv, thanks to such a new (to me ) and great article.

And we are in India, Land of myth. So we don't need to get angry on this.

sreeni
 
By the way, north Indians reckon that Kapilastaan near Haridwar is the place where Kapila had his hermitage. So there are several possibilities such as:

1.) Kapila had more than one hermitage, considering that most sages and saints, including those of Sikhism, Jainism and Buddhism, travelled widely by foot, and established multiple Ashrams, Gurudwaras and Monastries at different places.

2.) There were more than one sage Kapila.

3.) One or both the places are mere local folklore without any historical backing.
 
Last edited:
That tells the truth!

BAAM,

I would be better off remembering that Santayana's quote. Thank you very much!

Bagya,

I do not intend to question the scholarship of Thiru A.M.Rajagopalan. Without criticizing or contradicting anybody, I am putting down here the following information available with me:

There exists a city in India with the name, "Prag Jyothishya Pura" (Prag = eastern, Jyothishya=astrology, Pura=town), which till date very proudly advertises its legacy of Narakasura and Bhagadatta. This beautiful city located on the banks of the River Brahmaputra (which in itself is spectacular), is a state capital and the headquarters of a District called Kamarupa, and is also the gateway to the north-eastern India.

While being a concrete jungle like any other city in India with its pubs, restaurants, discos, shopping malls, medical & engineering colleges including an IIT, and apartment-complexes, the city also lodges 14 hillocks, 11 dense forests, and three wetlands (out of which, one, Deepar Bil, happens to be a Ramsar Site). The city's 12 lakh people share space with about 1,500 wildlife species including rare birds, the highest for any urban centre across the globe.

Amongst the 14 hillocks of the city is the Nilachal Hill (= Indraneela Parvatha of the Narakasura story). A neighbouring hillock, Narakasura Hill, has the remnants of a fort, which the locals say was the fort of Narakasura.

The hillock, however, is more famous for Kamakhya, a Shakthi Peetham (=where Shiva's consort Sati's private part is said to have fallen after the Daksha Yajna). It is a site for Tantric worship for both Hindus and Buddhists (Vajrayana). Kamakhya, dated to 2nd / 3rd Century A.D., contains a Yoni image (covered with a cloth and flowers since it is a private part), worshipped with meat and alcohol. The sacrifices are carried out by the Pandas (=Brahmins) of the temple. Human sacrifice was in vogue till the 1920s, whereupon the British Collectors of the area took stringent measures to stop it. Not withstanding this, even now people dread to venture into the temple during the night. Incidentally, B.B.C. covered the practice of 'Nara Bali' at Kamakhya in one of its programs.

Kamkhya Temple:



South Indians visiting the temple usually get put off by the gore (=Vamachara, or the "left-handed worship"), and also get dissatisfied because they could not get a glimpse of "the diety" (not knowing that there is really no "diety" there; only an image of the Yoni, which is covered up).

Sri Sri Jayendra Saraswathi was here in 1997-98 for about 15 days. During his stay, he also inaugurated and consecrated a Kamakoti Peetham owned temple-complex called Purva Thirupathi Balaji Mandir in the same city, which later became quite popular. Purva Thirupathi Balaji Mandir's affairs today are being looked after by Mr.Subramanyam, who happens to be a Tambram who retired as the DGP of the state.

Holiest of the days in Kamakhya is the Ambuvasi Amavasya, which is supposed to be the period of the Goddess menstruating. The temple pond becomes red, and so does the cloth covering the Yoni image (I personally think this is because of the blood from the animal sacrifices). Tantrics from all over India converge on these days at Kamakhya, and every cave, nook and corner on the hill-top is filled with intoxicated Tantrics with their matted hair and Trishuls. The stained cloth becomes a prized possession, and its pieces are distributed amongst officials, politicians, V.V.I.P.s etc.

Tantrics at Kamakhya:





In general, the District of Kamarupa carries a reputation for witchcraft. There is also a rival to the Kamakhya temple in the same District known as Madana Kamadev, where phallus-worship is practiced. There also exists an area called Mayang (Maya + Ang) in Kamarupa where, even in these modern times, people are hesitant to venture because of the fear of witchcraft.

Madana Kamadev:



Most temples in Kamarupa are of the 'Bila' type (underground caves) including Kamakhya, Umananda, etc. The Gopuram which you are seeing in one of the above pictures, is actually an entrance to the underground cave of the Kamakhya, which is quite dark & damp inside and may scare you if you are claustrophobic (you will find eerie characters sitting inside by dozens). You also find Goddesses such as Ugra Tara, who are not usually worshipped in Satvic Hinduism, being worshipped in these parts. Even in malls, shopping complexes, and residences of its denizens, Yoni image gets worshipped (which is actually awkward to get used to in the beginning for an outsider). You would usually notice an Old Monk rum bottle infront of the image, and on auspicious days, some animal meat kept in a plantain leaf.

The city also contains the earliest seat of astrology (=hence "Jyothishyapura"), the Navagraha Temple, on the top of another hillock, the Chitrachal. A Vaishnavite (=Satvic) shrine, the Ashram of Vasistha (pronounced as 'Bosistha', as 'v'-s become 'b'-s, and 'a'-s become 'o'-s in the east Indian languages), which presents very serene surroundings, is also in the city.

Since the said city contains a big betelnut ("Guwa") market ("Haat"), it has come to be called in modern times as Guwahati (= betelnut market). The most recent National Games (33rd - 2007) were held there! You would find the names "Prag" and "Pragjyothish" everywhere in the city, and the two Assam Tourism Department's river cruisers which are used for taking around the tourists over the River Brahmaputra are named as "Narakasura" and "Bhagadatta."

If you deny this rich folklore of an Indian State, and instead place Pragjyothishyapura in Iraq, I am sure you would be causing huge resentment in Assam ;-). I hope no Assamese Brahmin visits this forum!

Please visit Assam when you come next time to India. I promise that the trip will be worthwhile! For more information, visit the following link.

[SIZE=-1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guwahati[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]As far as Kapila's Ashram is concerned, it is said to be near Thirupathi at Kapilatheertham on the way to Thirumala. As for California, it derives its name from the mythological queen of Black Amazonians, Queen Califia, and certainly not from the sage Kapila.[/SIZE]
Dear KSPV ji
That was good enough to clear my doubts. These days one has to verify about history or sometimes it could be just 'his story'.
Thanks very much for the details. I have the habit of not accepting things unless I get clear explanation (like why ashtami/navami days are inauspicious, for example). Ofcourse anything and everything cannot be explained, but we get to know the answer from somewhere or the other. Happy to be here,
Nandriyudan
Bagya
 
Can you pls share the explanation ?

I have the habit of not accepting things unless I get clear explanation (like why ashtami/navami days are inauspicious, for example).

Even i don't know this. Can you share the explanation ?

In my younger days, even the sequence i didn't know. I thought it was Ashtami-Navami-Dashami & "Gowthami" till someone corrected it as Ekadashi !!!
 
sirs - i think this doubt has been addressed already. ashtami is birthday of Lord krishna. Lord rama was born on a navami. since both rama and krishan suffered throughout their lives, devotees consider asthami & navami as inauspicious- though they do celebrate rama navami & gokulashtami.

BTW, happy SARVAJIT tamil new years day!!
 
What I heard!

Even i don't know this. Can you share the explanation ?

In my younger days, even the sequence i didn't know. I thought it was Ashtami-Navami-Dashami & "Gowthami" till someone corrected it as Ekadashi !!!
Dear Hari
Ashtami and navami thithis were not given importance(by Devas) as they were arrogant. When they realised their mistake and surrendered to Mahavishnu, He said that two days in a year will be given importance to these thithis, as Rama Navami and Krishna Janmashtami, though neglected on other months.
I also read that there are negative energy from the Sun and the Moon during these days.
Nandriyudan
Bagya
 
This topic ignores the obvious differnce between Islamic and Hindu architechutre. Islamic architechture is the architecture of the skyline - the dome and minaret - born of its desert origins, whereas the richly carved Hindu temple is the architecture of the forest and jungle, inspired by our natural environment. The taj mahal is the most beautiful building in all islam, comissioned by a king whose mother was a rathore princess, and all Indians regardless of faith can be justly proud of it without inventing fictional histories to claim it for one religious group.
 
in this connection its better if our writer refd to threcent happenings in lalith kala academy last fotnight
taj had been said to hav inscriptions of vedas way of life etc
similar to that of aurangzip.shajahan too hav taken us for a ride
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest ads

Back
Top