Post #44 makes no sense. Moderator may atleast fix the post. Because the senseless post as it stands is attributed to my user ID.
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What aspects of TB culture is worth preserving and why?
- Thread starter a-TB
- Start date
In a public forum, one may not avoid suffering idiotic posts. But the moderator rushes to protect calling something out as idiotic but other name calling such as jalra etc stays. In light of this, is it wrong to atleast point to the problems with moderation?
Ok i get it. Moderator reacts only when someone reports. This abusive poster has taken advantage of this.. Abuses others but then runs crying to the moderator when he is paid back in the same coin...
I wish the moderator looks at the whole thread before unceremoniously editing only some posts selectively.
Ok i get it. Moderator reacts only when someone reports. This abusive poster has taken advantage of this.. Abuses others but then runs crying to the moderator when he is paid back in the same coin...
I wish the moderator looks at the whole thread before unceremoniously editing only some posts selectively.
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Dear Mr KB,
My understanding is that the moderator has no time to scan all the posts. He can only react to those brought to his attention. The best is to use the Report button to get his attention.
The poster you refer to is known to abuse the forum rules by calling names (unable to stick to a topic) , and write caustic comments (since he is unable to write a post cogently with content that shows understanding of a topic area).
Some people want attention and engagement and would go any length just to be noticed even if that notice is not complimentary. You did a favor by the act of engaging LOL My view - not worth the time.
Most do not engage with abusers of the rules of the forum
Dear Mr Brahmanyan,
Thank you for sharing your views and for two great references.
One seem to have a Vedantic message for leading one's life and the other is autobiography of a TB icon to serve as a role model.
Here is an issue for any group to maintain a culture of any sorts. This is especially difficult if one has to maintain and live by a Satvic culture.
Typically, a group of people live together in an area that helps promote upkeep of a culture. For example, I do not know if you have heard about the Amish culture. There about 20000 or so people still live in a life more closer to 14th century living than 21st century living. They live in many part of USA including near the state of Pennsylvania. They do not use electricity and any major gadgets. They travel by horse drawn carriage and use battery for turn signals. They do farming, build own homes and the entire community participates in building a house for their members.
Unless they lived in a reservation like place there is no way their strict life could be maintained.
Most TBs have left Tamil Nadu and are spread all over the globe. They are subjected to onslaught of the majority culture and values of the local society.
Maintaining a Satvic lifestyle in the midst of all of this is not easy and certainly not for the younger generation. I see many in their late 40s beginning to realize the wisdom in the TB cultural aspects of living.
Because the community is spread apart and will never go back to living in Agraharam style set up I do not know what solutions exist.
Thanks again for great references for one to learn and aspire for the values mentioned therein.
Regards
renuka
Well-known member
Has anyone thought that threads like this display some form of fear and self obsession?
Doesn't life just go on for everyone daily?
Does anyone actually get up in the morning to get anxious about their culture?
Its sounds a bit strange but if one visits Islamic sites run by Indians...you can see the same fear..the same anxiety that Islamic culture needs to be preserved etc..the same fear as I see in TB forum.
The fact is we can only be certain of death and nothing else in this world..holding on too much to anything in an obsessive mode is an ADDICTION.
Elsewhere in another thread there is a valid topic of addiction to internet games and Brahmanyan Ji has quoted the Geeta to beautifully link the risks of addictions.
Keeping that in mind those Geeta verses would also hold good for anyone obsessed with culture.
One does not have to give up culture and tradition but why the obsession?
Again the Bhagavad Geeta can come to the rescue here :
कर्मण्येवाधिकारस्ते मा फलेषु कदाचन ।
मा कर्मफलहेतुर्भुर्मा ते संगोऽस्त्वकर्मणि ॥
You are entitled to action but not to the fruits of it,
let not the fruits by thy motive and not to be attached to inaction.
This is the best shloka for anything we do.
Just replace the word action with culture.
"You are entitled to culture but not to the fruits of it,
let not the fruits be thy motive and not be attached to non-culture"
In my opinion..a person who preforms his duty without obsession lives, but one who is obsessed dies daily.
Doesn't life just go on for everyone daily?
Does anyone actually get up in the morning to get anxious about their culture?
Its sounds a bit strange but if one visits Islamic sites run by Indians...you can see the same fear..the same anxiety that Islamic culture needs to be preserved etc..the same fear as I see in TB forum.
The fact is we can only be certain of death and nothing else in this world..holding on too much to anything in an obsessive mode is an ADDICTION.
Elsewhere in another thread there is a valid topic of addiction to internet games and Brahmanyan Ji has quoted the Geeta to beautifully link the risks of addictions.
Keeping that in mind those Geeta verses would also hold good for anyone obsessed with culture.
One does not have to give up culture and tradition but why the obsession?
Again the Bhagavad Geeta can come to the rescue here :
कर्मण्येवाधिकारस्ते मा फलेषु कदाचन ।
मा कर्मफलहेतुर्भुर्मा ते संगोऽस्त्वकर्मणि ॥
You are entitled to action but not to the fruits of it,
let not the fruits by thy motive and not to be attached to inaction.
This is the best shloka for anything we do.
Just replace the word action with culture.
"You are entitled to culture but not to the fruits of it,
let not the fruits be thy motive and not be attached to non-culture"
In my opinion..a person who preforms his duty without obsession lives, but one who is obsessed dies daily.
Why would trying to know about our own culture and trying to pass it on to the next generation (if they deem it to be worth cultivating) be a display of some form of fear and self obsession?
I remember spending quite a bit of my formative years in learning multiplication tables. That skill became obsolete with the advent of calculators and later computers. No one had any idea that calculators will be invented and reduce the stress on memory. My parents (so also like millions or billions of others) thought it was a worthwhile thing to imbibe on young minds. That cant be construed as obsession.
Certainty of death has not stopped people from pursuing their lives till death.
So why deprive "adhikaram" of anyone who wants to pursue cultural continuity? After all, Lord Krishna will give him the "phalam" as Lord Krishna deigns fit.
Everyone who is born dies a bit each day irrespective of if he obsesses or not.
What has not come out in this thread about culture is about people's longing to connect to his/her (and logically extending to his progeny's) own roots. Otherwise there would not be a logical reason for you having a cosy life in M'sia to be interacting with members in TB forum.
The word "addiction" can also be extended to parents teaching mother-tongue to their children if they (the parents) normally reside outside the area where their mother tongue is used.
I have seen/heard fourth generation TB emigrants to the USA chanting "Gange cha Yamune chaiva Godavari Saraswati, Narmade Sindhu Kaveri, jalEsmin Sannidhim kuru" although they havent seen rivers other than Potomac or Mississippi and Saraswati has dried up more than 2000 years back.
prasad1
Active member
I agree with the post.
We carry a lot of baggage, some with understanding and others out of fear and call it culture.
It is different for each individual, there is nothing that you may call as TB culture.
We must try to inculcate intelligence, curiosity, good common sense, social skills, and love of all things good and beautiful.
We must not burden the next generation with useless and outdated practice, that has lost its value.
If the next generation wants intercaste marriage, intercountry marriage, or drink alcohol (sensibly), so be it.
renuka
Well-known member
Dear Zebraji,
I interact with many other sites too (other religions/languages)..not just TB forum.
That's why I made the comparison with the Indian Islamic sites where they too feel the constant insecurity to preserve Islamic culture and get the feeling they are being persecuted.
Anxiety has made shades of expression.
I can understand if a Muslim feels that way cos they strongly identify with the body as they believe that they would get back their body on day of Judgment..but for a Hindu the underlying belief system of Moksha and Kah Aham(Who am I)..I am NOT the body..I am not the mind..I am not the senses etc..yet the feeling of "I am CULTURE" is holding on so strong.
I am not saying culture adherence is wrong but just the obsession seems a bit bordering anxiety.
And to be honest..even though I interact with TB forum and many other sites of different religions too..I dont feel affinity with any one site..there is no such thing of me wanting to get back to any roots...My body is the Tree..the roots are right here....when the body dies..the tree dies.
prasad1
Active member
Each generation tries to pass on some of their own understandings and knowledge to the next generation.
Our parents tied to inculcate some of their wisdom, values, superstitions, fears to us. We accepted some but added some more depending on our circumstances. So we retained some but adapted some others, and sometimes added our own.
We try the same thing with the next generation.
Like Zebraji says some have become useless and should be modified.
Some values and practice get lost because we do not know how to explain it, or the geographic location makes it difficult.
We have indoor bathrooms (even in the temple) in the USA. We had a very difficult time getting the congregation to accept it.
Some kids in the USA had their shoulder branded with Vaishnava symbols, and the kids had to endure bullying. Probably it would have been better to get a tattoo instead.
A young girl was made to sit in the cold garage (due to periods), till the child protection agency showed up.
My friend an Iyyangar who grew up in front of Meenakshi Temple was never allowed to visit the temple,
now she laughs it off, and participates in all aspects of Shiva Temple.
Our parents tied to inculcate some of their wisdom, values, superstitions, fears to us. We accepted some but added some more depending on our circumstances. So we retained some but adapted some others, and sometimes added our own.
We try the same thing with the next generation.
Like Zebraji says some have become useless and should be modified.
Some values and practice get lost because we do not know how to explain it, or the geographic location makes it difficult.
We have indoor bathrooms (even in the temple) in the USA. We had a very difficult time getting the congregation to accept it.
Some kids in the USA had their shoulder branded with Vaishnava symbols, and the kids had to endure bullying. Probably it would have been better to get a tattoo instead.
A young girl was made to sit in the cold garage (due to periods), till the child protection agency showed up.
My friend an Iyyangar who grew up in front of Meenakshi Temple was never allowed to visit the temple,
now she laughs it off, and participates in all aspects of Shiva Temple.
Obsession is a judgement call. It is very normal to have a discussion of TB culture at least in this forum. What is the need for people to constantly rush to judge anyone, i do not know. Same thing happened when someone wrote a poem. Sometimes knowledge and adulation may get to one's head and there is a BG verse surely to guard against this temptation too...
I understand my post is a judgement as well.
I understand my post is a judgement as well.
The title of the thread "what aspects of tb culture is worth preserving" itself suggests some flexibility and not rigidity - the same thing that has come out in the last few posts. In light of this, were the many harsh interludes by usual suspects necessary?
We understand the future generation will retain only things that they deem rational and useful to them. But how we determine if something is rational? Based on data. Our ancestors' life experience is data to us. Therefore propagation of culture is rational and this is how societies make progress. Evolving culture does not mean that everything that our ancestors did is discarded.
We understand the future generation will retain only things that they deem rational and useful to them. But how we determine if something is rational? Based on data. Our ancestors' life experience is data to us. Therefore propagation of culture is rational and this is how societies make progress. Evolving culture does not mean that everything that our ancestors did is discarded.
Dear forum friends,
Let us not get distracted. There are a few who like to filibuster, and bring in extraneous items to somehow kill the flow of discussions.
You have to only guess the motivations behind such actions especially when done repeatedly (in other such threads though the focus here is diffferent) . On second thought trying to guess the motivations is not worthwhile since it may reveal an ugliness that is not worth dwelling upon.
It is one thing to show inability to comprehend what is being discussed which is all about broadmindedness aspects of the culture. It is another to come here to throw mud and try to sidetrack and kill the discussions.
Let us please get back to the topic
Thank you
Let us not get distracted. There are a few who like to filibuster, and bring in extraneous items to somehow kill the flow of discussions.
You have to only guess the motivations behind such actions especially when done repeatedly (in other such threads though the focus here is diffferent) . On second thought trying to guess the motivations is not worthwhile since it may reveal an ugliness that is not worth dwelling upon.
It is one thing to show inability to comprehend what is being discussed which is all about broadmindedness aspects of the culture. It is another to come here to throw mud and try to sidetrack and kill the discussions.
Let us please get back to the topic
Thank you
Getting back to the topic:
We are not talking about religious coversions, issuing fatwas or any violent things.
TB culture is based on time honored practices to uphold the following teachings of Gita.
As mentioned earlier the essence of Brahmin life style per Gita is "Austerity, purity, patience, integrity, knowledge, wisdom, and belief in a hereafter—these are the intrinsic qualities of work for Brahmins. "
Now the cultural aspects of celebrating festivals or even daily living (like offering food to God first and then eat as Prasadam) or praying for welfare of all is really rooted in a broadminded thinking. It is not exclusionary
Today with the influence of glitter of western culture and due to being spread across the globe it is harder to keep these values intact via cultural elements.
I wanted to know if members have concrete suggestions for the above issues.
Now books that are excellent reading could be useful but for many living in cities in various countries how do they keep the best aspects of the culture intact so the values mentioned above are maintained.
We are not talking about religious coversions, issuing fatwas or any violent things.
TB culture is based on time honored practices to uphold the following teachings of Gita.
As mentioned earlier the essence of Brahmin life style per Gita is "Austerity, purity, patience, integrity, knowledge, wisdom, and belief in a hereafter—these are the intrinsic qualities of work for Brahmins. "
Now the cultural aspects of celebrating festivals or even daily living (like offering food to God first and then eat as Prasadam) or praying for welfare of all is really rooted in a broadminded thinking. It is not exclusionary
Today with the influence of glitter of western culture and due to being spread across the globe it is harder to keep these values intact via cultural elements.
I wanted to know if members have concrete suggestions for the above issues.
Now books that are excellent reading could be useful but for many living in cities in various countries how do they keep the best aspects of the culture intact so the values mentioned above are maintained.
prasad1
Active member
My guru always used to say that "when you point finger at others, remember three fingers are pointing at you".
If you present your point clearly and are open to counterpoint the discussion can continue.
But if you single out people by caste or individual, there will be a protest.
Brahmanyanji and Renukaji made this thread little more interesting by substantiating because the original poster could not.
Going by the OP (not the moderated version), the thread was obnoxious and bigoted.
When I asked for an explanation, all I got was insults and personal attacks.
For getting back to the thread the OP still has not mentioned one special exclusive Tamil Brahmin Trait that he wants us to maintain.
We all want and try to inculcate our children with all the best values we know. But that is universal.
I lead by example, and not by decree.
I am vegetarian, my children are vegetarian.
I go to Temple weekly, my children go to Temple off and on.
One of my nephews is Vegan, so I bring my own Milk.
He is married to a White American, so I know my limits.
I would rather compromise with whatever they decide, and however, they decide to lead their life.
Am I worried that he married outside the TB group? Yes and No.
A friend of mine has broken off all relationships with his daughter because she married somebody from outside the group. I am still trying to mediate between the father and daughter.
The relationship is more important than any "Culture".
In our temple, we have incorporated every aspect of Hinduism.
We have navagraham and Puri Jugganath. In addition to Traditional Shiva, Vishnu, Lakshmi, Durga, Ganesh, and Hanuman.
Yes some vert strong TB family refuse to join, I think it is their loss.
Similarly, we have a separate community hall, where even a shoke Shaba (meeting and prayers after death in the family) is allowed.
Because North Indian Hindus do not observe a taboo on visiting the temple after death in the family.
Compromise is the word, and it is unique to the individual, it may or may not work for all.
Brahmanyan
Active member
Agreed my friend.
Again I wish to stress that human life is precious gift of God. Let us try this opportunity to live as a good human being. Which is easy if we radiate Compassion, love and companionship with others.
I am not interested giving a sermon, but wish to think aloud.
Each day is a new beginning in life. No one can anticipate what is in store for us on that day. All living beings , trees, animals, or humans are part of the creation. All religions and religious leaders try to help us to lead a happy life in the society. Let us not waste our life and energy quarreling on petty issues. We understand this truth at the fag end of our existence when we face the gate of no return.
Culture is "refinement". Changes are inevitable, no one can stop it. We cannot reverse it either.
It is my understanding that Caste is a generic name for a group of people who follow and discharge a particular "karma" . Incidentally they follow a particular way of life. No one is high or low in birth, all are same.
If we shed the blinkers that we put in the name of Caste, community, high or low and come out of the cucoon of false thinking, we will see the real world of happiness.
Regards,
Brahmanyan
Bangalore.
In my very limited understanding (and I could be quite erroneous) what we intend to pass on to the future generations is what we think are the "Values" of our culture.
It is quite likely the same "values" are valued in all religions and is also very possible that some or many TBs may have given up on those values or they may be only mentally giving impact to those values (a sort of mAnasa pujA) without showing any outward actions.
I am not entering into any dialogue on inter-faith comparison as to how our culture and practices and values are comparing or contrasting with other religions, nor trying to give cooked up (and mostly after-thoughts after centuries) scientific rationale.
Per my very limited intellect, Hinduism believes that each birth is due to (rUN - sanskrit word pronounced as ruuN) meaning "debt" accumulated in previous janmAs and we clear out as much accumulated debt as possible in this janmA (also having enjoyment when others who owe it to us in the previous janmAs return their debts).
We owe our debt basically to our mAtA, pitA (combinedly called as pitRs - without offending the anti-patriarchy activists), guru (teacher or preceptor) and deivam (God or Almighty or Brahman or whatever name is assigned). It is not difficult to know why we owe to these four entities, as parents bring us into this world, the unknown God or Brahman or whatever gives us food, water, sunlight etc. for us to sustain and the Guru or teacher or preceptor who teaches us from his experience as also from the experiences shared with him by his Gurus etc (possibly extending to many many generations called Guru parampara). Most ideally he teaches us 'viveka "discrimination/discretion" of mind showing us the limitations of our capacity and capability to create, modify or change the things we can and also the things we can not conceivably change. His teachings enable us to cut short time wastage on those things we cant possibly change without going into numerous trial and error methods.
It is quite possible for one to live out without being under the aforesaid debt or thanking by treating the God as non-existant (charavaka and pUrva meemAmsa philosophies), treating Him as non-interfering Brahman entity (advaita philosophy) or an active paripUrNam entity capable and interceding on behalf of BhaktAs, sAdhus (more appropriately for "innocents" (Vishist-advaitin, dwaitin philosophies) etc. Also it is possible to think of no obligation to parents taking the line that we did not come out into this world with our express willingness or the nourishment they provided was a parental obligation etc.). Also it is possible to dismiss the role of a Guru having made the obligatory payment of his fees or substituting a Guru with books and other modes knowledge.
Traditional TB values as per my understanding finds the compensation or thought process enumerated in the aforesaid para (beginning with "It is quite possible......") as inadequate to discharge the debt owed by us to pitRs or devAs.
I will contribute further if there is more interest...
prasad1
Active member
Thank you Zebraji,
Your post#66 makes sense. And please continue with it either here or in a separate thread.
Value is very individualistic.
No two person will have identical value.
There is a value difference between my wife and me.
So when we share it with our children, they notice it.
So then we have to resolve it.
I studied in India and my methods of solving a problem clashes with what is taught here in The USA.
So the next generation gets mixed messages.
Ultimately they too have to synthesis their own value system.
I am active in the Indian community here in the USA.
When we celebrate Indian Independence or Indian republic day here In the USA, American born children do not share our passion.
When we get excited about Cricket, it is not the same to them.
Do we feel a little nostalgic? YES.
But that does not mean that I can enforce my views.
So we have to learn to live with the changes, we can lament on the loss of OUR value, but it is not universal value or group value.
Your post#66 makes sense. And please continue with it either here or in a separate thread.
Value is very individualistic.
No two person will have identical value.
There is a value difference between my wife and me.
So when we share it with our children, they notice it.
So then we have to resolve it.
I studied in India and my methods of solving a problem clashes with what is taught here in The USA.
So the next generation gets mixed messages.
Ultimately they too have to synthesis their own value system.
I am active in the Indian community here in the USA.
When we celebrate Indian Independence or Indian republic day here In the USA, American born children do not share our passion.
When we get excited about Cricket, it is not the same to them.
Do we feel a little nostalgic? YES.
But that does not mean that I can enforce my views.
So we have to learn to live with the changes, we can lament on the loss of OUR value, but it is not universal value or group value.
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Please continue with your post.
My opinion is that by culture we mean the values and also the means with which we can adhere to the values. The activities we talk about - the rituals, the nityakarmas, learning of art, participation in festivities etc are the means. Over time, people tend to focus on the means without fully understanding the underlying value system. This is because values may be hard to grasp or focus on but activities can be made "fun". However without understanding of the underlying values, the activities erode over time. Our values also come in clash with values of other civilisations - not necessarily physical clash but also clash of ideas. This is what is happening to our culture. For the sustenance of a culture, may be both the values and means are important.
I will say your post is a very good summary of the value part of our traditional culture. My humble request for you to is touch upon the "means" as well if you will - although here i agree that there could be some differences among different sects of brahmins etc
There were a series of posts on Vedas by another member Vikrama long time back. People had some differences with it but it was one of the most useful threads in this forum. I hope your posts here are equally enlightening.
Thank you for the very thoughtful post.
prasad1
Active member
Excellent post.
prasad1
Active member
The Holy Bible, Authorized King James Version (1611), “The Gospel According to John”, chapter 8, verses 3–7
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Dear Mr Brahmanyan,
As always thank you for sharing your thoughts.
There are no quarrels. There will be always some noise in any discussion forum but the aim of the discussion here is really one based on broadness of mind. Let us not even get drawn into who is low or high because they do not apply here in my understanding. Those are not part of the subject of the thread. The real issue is the practices that have led to the upkeep of the values you helped articulate using the Gita verse.
Now if you were to reflect on your own life, my assumption is that you evolved to be a wise person and was not born that way. You can correct me if my assumption is wrong. This evolution is based on three distinct factors - Nature like genese etc, Nurture like family values and cutural norms, and life experience.
The focus here is on the nurture aspects. Are there cultural norms that is found in TB families that contributed to upkeep of the values and promote wisdom? If so what are they?
Thanks and Regards
Dear Mr Zebra,
Nice flowing post and waiting for Part 2
I remember seeing this word ruuN as you write it elsewhere. I think it was used at least once earlier in the Sandhyavandanam thread in the Philosophy section. In fact the case for doing Srardham is to discharge those debts.
Is it true doing Pitru Srardham the way it is done is one of the aspects of TB culture? It may not be limited to only TB world but it is considered important the way it is done.
Looking forward to the continuation along the lines suggested by Mr KB
Thank you Mr KB for providing the right interpretations and keeping the thread from going astray with your thoughtful comments.
prasad1
Active member
This one member is too new to the forum that this kind of group-ism was voted and banned by the community.
Please read the post by Zebraji in the following thread.
and a post by Renukaji and Sangomji.
The present-day group, in particular, the original poster implied as such before it was moderated.
The OP never mentioned one single trait that is unique to all TB, and exclusive only to TBs. In addition, OP conveniently broke every one of the "commandment" that would be desirable in any civilized society (he admitted to some).
Under such circumstance, how can this person desire or preach to future generations?
Would that be like the fox guarding the chicken coup?
I sorry to other members, as it may seem personal disagreement, but this member is indulging in subtle personal attack and ignores pointed question about the thread topic.
Please read the post by Zebraji in the following thread.
and a post by Renukaji and Sangomji.
The present-day group, in particular, the original poster implied as such before it was moderated.
The OP never mentioned one single trait that is unique to all TB, and exclusive only to TBs. In addition, OP conveniently broke every one of the "commandment" that would be desirable in any civilized society (he admitted to some).
Under such circumstance, how can this person desire or preach to future generations?
Would that be like the fox guarding the chicken coup?
I sorry to other members, as it may seem personal disagreement, but this member is indulging in subtle personal attack and ignores pointed question about the thread topic.
GNANA SUNYAM
Active member
Please read my reply to your posts in the other thread titled, "The Tamil Brahmin Culture - One Opinion (Borrowed)".
The only thing common is our capacity to dexterously mingle with people who belong to our state of domicility, with people to whom our state of domicility belongs.
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