I am really surprised that you believe in these. Defeating in a debate does not mean physical killing; neither ramanuja or shankaracharya or vaishnavites or saivites would have done such deeds. Your intent to discredit ramanujacharya to gloss over christian and muslim mass murders is deplorable.
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what is the difference between non violence and weakness ?
- Thread starter niyengaar
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One view of such wild theories of mass killing of jains by tamil vaishnavites and saivites. There is a huge array of discussions on these topics; and many lead to the conclusion that these stories are false, motivated and mischievous. This excerpt takes a neutral and balanced stand.
"The Jains are said to have conducted a wholesale persecution of the Bauddhas under a king by name Himasitala at the instance of a Jain Acharya Akalanka. A similar story is told of Ramanuja of having persecuted the Jains by getting them ground in oil-mills. Vishnuvar-dhana, the Hoysala, who adopted Vaishnavism, is said to have perpetrated this atrocity. We have pointed out elsewhere that the chief queen of Vishnuvardhana died a Jain. His loyal and faithful commander-in-chief of all of his forces lived and died a Jain under him, and his son succeeded in the same persuasion. When late in life, a son was born to the king, the tutor for the son was a most respected Jain Acharya. It need hardly be added therefore that these stories of persecution as they are found current could hardly be regarded as historical, and one ought to look for satisfactory evidence in each separate case before accepting the historicity of any of these incidents of persecution, or even for postulating that no persecution took place. This does not necessarily involve the assumption that religious riots and excesses by parties of people were always non-existent. The Rashtrakutas, as already pointed out, were great patrons of the Jains and in the best days of Rashtrakuta Empire it was that Jainism did its best work in literature in the Southern Maharatta country and Mysore. These are the portions of South India that happen to be the great Jain centres even now, and in that region Jainism flourished even in the age of the great Cholas. One of the constant complaints of the destructive operations of the war carried on by the Cholas against the latter was that the Cholas destroyed these Jain monasteries and temples, without showing the usual consideration due to these holy places. Jainism continued to flourish under the Chalukyas and under the Hoysalas at a later time and even in the age of Vijayanagar."
Ramanuja. Continued
"The Jains are said to have conducted a wholesale persecution of the Bauddhas under a king by name Himasitala at the instance of a Jain Acharya Akalanka. A similar story is told of Ramanuja of having persecuted the Jains by getting them ground in oil-mills. Vishnuvar-dhana, the Hoysala, who adopted Vaishnavism, is said to have perpetrated this atrocity. We have pointed out elsewhere that the chief queen of Vishnuvardhana died a Jain. His loyal and faithful commander-in-chief of all of his forces lived and died a Jain under him, and his son succeeded in the same persuasion. When late in life, a son was born to the king, the tutor for the son was a most respected Jain Acharya. It need hardly be added therefore that these stories of persecution as they are found current could hardly be regarded as historical, and one ought to look for satisfactory evidence in each separate case before accepting the historicity of any of these incidents of persecution, or even for postulating that no persecution took place. This does not necessarily involve the assumption that religious riots and excesses by parties of people were always non-existent. The Rashtrakutas, as already pointed out, were great patrons of the Jains and in the best days of Rashtrakuta Empire it was that Jainism did its best work in literature in the Southern Maharatta country and Mysore. These are the portions of South India that happen to be the great Jain centres even now, and in that region Jainism flourished even in the age of the great Cholas. One of the constant complaints of the destructive operations of the war carried on by the Cholas against the latter was that the Cholas destroyed these Jain monasteries and temples, without showing the usual consideration due to these holy places. Jainism continued to flourish under the Chalukyas and under the Hoysalas at a later time and even in the age of Vijayanagar."
Ramanuja. Continued
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sarang, which parts of these texts must be believed, and which parts must be taken as allegorical? You say below, and elsewhere as well, there was mass murder of Brahmins and Hindus by Muslims and Christians, how much of that is allegorical, or is that literally true? If it is literally true could you please provide some evidence? If you want to go silent at this point, as is your norm when contested, I understand.
What is my intent is for me to know, it is not wise to speculate. I have repeatedly challenged how much the present day SVs, both lay and high acharyas, have betrayed the lofty ideals of Azhvars and early Acharyas, including Bhagavat Ramanuja. I think if there is any discrediting of Ramanuja taking place, it is by Braminical SVs (both B and NB) themselves.
Cheers!
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sarang, I couldn't have said this any better. This standard applies to all of us. So, your claim that there was mass murder of "Brahmins and Hindus" by Muslims and Christians must also be subjected to the same standard.
Under the Christian British, the Brahmins flourished like no other, so your claim about Christians is false.
While there are some accounts of Muslims invading the south and occupying temples some 700 years ago, by and large they left the "Brahmins and Hindus" alone. North Arcot has been under Muslim rule for a long time and yet there was no problem for "Brahmins and Hindus" to go on with their ways. To say there was mass murder you ought to provide "satisfactory evidence".
Cheers!
In the movie "Dasavatharam" the earlier scenes depict how a Vaishnu devotee was buried in the sea alive..and the Director/Producer/Script writer claims that the story was very realistic depicting what happened at that time of TN history....
All this just ILLUSIONS peddled by Kollywood?!!
I don't think so!
All this just ILLUSIONS peddled by Kollywood?!!
I don't think so!
Govinda
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Yamaka,
Response to your Post#72.
Oops! a great mis-understanding. Western religions are a great testimony for forceful conversion due to various tactics/methods:
Holocaust (Nazi on Jews), christian persecution by early Romans (how Jesus died),Inquisitions/Persecution (Catholic/Pope on others, esp. Goa Inquisition), Jihad.
He was a mongoloid first, he won the Baghdad war against Arabs, but he like the Romans, Persians, didnt massacre them but left them alone. But, only when his descendants became Turks and Islam, they obtained Triple bonus Genes for brutality. His decendent was Timur Lane, who attacked Delhi Sultanate, massaccred 100,000 hindu soldiers.
Genghis Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Timur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Persian Massacre:
Timur ordered the complete massacre of the city, killing a reported 70,000 citizens. An eye-witness counted more than 28 towers, each constructed of about 1,500 heads.
Indian Loot:
The alleged "Memoirs" of Timur, or Tuzk-e-Taimuri, relate the sack of Delhi:
When this order became known to the gházís of Islám, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. 100,000 infidels, impious idolaters, were on that day slain. According to Ruy Gonzáles de Clavijo, 90 captured elephants were employed merely to carry precious stones looted from his conquest, so as to erect a mosque at Samarkand – what historians today believe is the enormous Bibi-Khanym Mosque.
FYI, Moghul Babur , was a descendent of Chengis Khan and Timur Lane. All the Indian Khans may be from Chengiz Khan lineage.
Do you understand how prosperous we were then???!!!!!!!
So, the Yamaka's, Nara's Opinions that Brahmins or Indians flourished because of 'THEN' British or Moghuls are BLATANT LIES.!!! The SILK ROUTE was the aim of those uncivilized mobs, to squander the weath/prosperity,hard-work, intelligence of India/China exploiting their humble, honest exposition.
First, they need 3 decades to squander all our wealth, and kill all the soldiers built towers over their heads. Now, the conversion in their Rule would have been natural. The war widows were raped, imposed Jizya on all peasants, that's it. Easy Goals for the Barbarians!
Response to your Post#72.
Oops! a great mis-understanding. Western religions are a great testimony for forceful conversion due to various tactics/methods:
Holocaust (Nazi on Jews), christian persecution by early Romans (how Jesus died),Inquisitions/Persecution (Catholic/Pope on others, esp. Goa Inquisition), Jihad.
He was a mongoloid first, he won the Baghdad war against Arabs, but he like the Romans, Persians, didnt massacre them but left them alone. But, only when his descendants became Turks and Islam, they obtained Triple bonus Genes for brutality. His decendent was Timur Lane, who attacked Delhi Sultanate, massaccred 100,000 hindu soldiers.
Genghis Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Timur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Persian Massacre:
Timur ordered the complete massacre of the city, killing a reported 70,000 citizens. An eye-witness counted more than 28 towers, each constructed of about 1,500 heads.
Indian Loot:
The alleged "Memoirs" of Timur, or Tuzk-e-Taimuri, relate the sack of Delhi:
When this order became known to the gházís of Islám, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. 100,000 infidels, impious idolaters, were on that day slain. According to Ruy Gonzáles de Clavijo, 90 captured elephants were employed merely to carry precious stones looted from his conquest, so as to erect a mosque at Samarkand – what historians today believe is the enormous Bibi-Khanym Mosque.
FYI, Moghul Babur , was a descendent of Chengis Khan and Timur Lane. All the Indian Khans may be from Chengiz Khan lineage.
Do you understand how prosperous we were then???!!!!!!!
So, the Yamaka's, Nara's Opinions that Brahmins or Indians flourished because of 'THEN' British or Moghuls are BLATANT LIES.!!! The SILK ROUTE was the aim of those uncivilized mobs, to squander the weath/prosperity,hard-work, intelligence of India/China exploiting their humble, honest exposition.
First, they need 3 decades to squander all our wealth, and kill all the soldiers built towers over their heads. Now, the conversion in their Rule would have been natural. The war widows were raped, imposed Jizya on all peasants, that's it. Easy Goals for the Barbarians!
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Govinda
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Yamaka,
In an example, Saint Sambhandar converted the Jain King ParAnkusa MAravarman into Saivism.
Sita Ram Goel's Conclusions:
“It is nobody’s case that there was never any conflict between the sects and sub-sects of Sanatana Dharma. Some instances of persecution were indeed there.
Our plea is that they should be seen in a proper perspective, and not exaggerated in order to whitewash or counterbalance the record of Islamic intolerance.
Firstly, the instances are few and far between when compared to those listed in Muslim annals.
Secondly, those instances are spread over several millennia (…)
Thirdly, none of those instances were inspired by a theology (…) [meaning mostly upon authority/ego of the ruler]
Fourthly, Jains were not always the victims of persecution; they were persecutors as well once in a while.
Lastly, no king or commander or saint who showed intolerance has been a Hindu hero, while Islam has hailed as heroes only those characters who excelled in intolerance.”
Govinda
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This shows that you and the non-brahmins are equally brain-washed by the British Propaganda,
Potrayal of Brahmins and upper castes as oppressors « Latasinha’s Weblog
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The subtitle of this weblog given by the author's themselves is "Just another WordPress.com weblog".
Govinda
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So what, that is the title for all of her 100 blogs.
The author is not smart enough to publicize the facts in the blog, like you guys are smart enough to propagandize your pre-judices on Hinduism.
Anyway, I would like to present some of the imp. points/facts:
In 1879, the Collector of Tanjore wrote to James Courd, a Member of the Famine Commission, “There was no class except Brahmins, which was so hostile to English (rule)” In the words of an observer, “If any community could claim the British out of the country, it was the Brahmin community 70% of those, who were felled by British bullets, were Brahmins.”
Rowlett Report (1880) also confirmed that the British regarded Brahmins as the main force behind all terrorist movements and agitation leading to violence in almost all the provinces.
Non-Brahmins were not unrepresented in learning. In Malabar, out of 1,588 scholars of Theology, Law, Astronomy, Metaphysics, Ethics and Medical Science, only 639 were Brahmins, 23 Vaishyas, 254 Shudras and 672 “other castes”.
Brahmins had a near-monopoly only in the Vedas and Theology.
Sir Alfred Croft, Director of Public Instruction in Bengal wrote to Rev. J. Johnston in 1881, "Half the students live from hand to mouth…." According to statistics, 76% of the Brahmins guarantors belonged to the low or medium income groups.
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Govinda, most blogs are opinions, offering them for further reading is fine, but they establish nothing. This is a very simple principle yet many people don't seem to understand it.
...... gratuitous silly comment ignored ......
I have been pleading with you guys to refrain from such unwanted barbs, but no avail. IMHO, this only reveals a character weakness.
You guys routinely rile against British propaganda but wish to cite a report by an obscure British official the veracity of which is unverifiable. There is supposed to be a British collector's report that Rama and Lakshmana literally came and saved Maduranthagam from floods. Such is the validity of these reports.
For more authentic and verifiable information we need to turn to bonafide historians of repute. Sometime back I uploaded couple of Tables from a book by one such historian and readers can browse them here and here.
It is true that many Brahmins participated in the freedom struggle. It is also true that Brahmin caste in general did very well under the British rule.
Cheers!
sangom
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IMO, when the British came here as the British East India Company, they found the brahmins (in and around Calcutta) to be the highest respected social class, next only to whoever wielded the temporal power. So, as traders, the Company tried to befriend the Brahmins and work their progress through that route. But, as things turned out, when the British were first exposed to Sanskrit, its Grammar and structure, they were taken aback by its close similarities to their classical languages; from that exposure were born the Aryan, Indo-aryan and the Proto-Indo-aryan ideas.
As the foreigners learnt more and more about our scriptures, religion, social set-up, etc., through their acquired Sanskrit scholarship, they discovered the pivotal role of the brahmins in India in everything from God Almighty to the most mundane social norms down here on this earth. Overawed by the influence which brahmins enjoyed in the then Indian social set-up, the Britishers developed a love-hate relationship towards the brahmins; in fact the britishers longed (probably, imho) to replace the brahmins so that they will be the new Manus and Law-makers here. But this was not as smooth as they thought. So the Britishers resorted to the tactics which goes ஆடற மாட்டை ஆடிக்கற...; they killed brahmans when they were not cooperative, befriended others, until Macaulay came out with his plan which, in effect, aimed at "if we cannot become brahmins, then let us make the brahmins into britishers" as the saying goes.
I think the above will explain all that is being discussed here.
As the foreigners learnt more and more about our scriptures, religion, social set-up, etc., through their acquired Sanskrit scholarship, they discovered the pivotal role of the brahmins in India in everything from God Almighty to the most mundane social norms down here on this earth. Overawed by the influence which brahmins enjoyed in the then Indian social set-up, the Britishers developed a love-hate relationship towards the brahmins; in fact the britishers longed (probably, imho) to replace the brahmins so that they will be the new Manus and Law-makers here. But this was not as smooth as they thought. So the Britishers resorted to the tactics which goes ஆடற மாட்டை ஆடிக்கற...; they killed brahmans when they were not cooperative, befriended others, until Macaulay came out with his plan which, in effect, aimed at "if we cannot become brahmins, then let us make the brahmins into britishers" as the saying goes.
I think the above will explain all that is being discussed here.
Mr. Govinda,
What you say may all be true. However who do we blame if we cannot defend ourselves? I agree that Gandhi's non-violence movement would not have worked against the Muslims, because it requires an iota of conscience to remain in the oppressor. That is why it worked against the British, but is not working in current day Libya, Syria and Yemen.
What you say may all be true. However who do we blame if we cannot defend ourselves? I agree that Gandhi's non-violence movement would not have worked against the Muslims, because it requires an iota of conscience to remain in the oppressor. That is why it worked against the British, but is not working in current day Libya, Syria and Yemen.
"I agree that Gandhi's non-violence movement would not have worked against the Muslims, because it requires an iota of conscience to remain in the oppressor" - post 88.
Hi Biswa:
So, you concluded that British had MORE conscience than the Muslims!
This is the genesis of bias/prejudice on certain groups!
My view is Indians were weaker and divided which paved the way for the Invaders to take advantage of... the rest was history..
The same time that the British East India came to India, they came to North America... what happened later? Americans fought tooth and nail against the well oiled Military of the Red Coats and drove them out in shame!
But Indians just cowed down and took the assault and subjugation for about 300 years. The same thing was true with the Muslim invaders since 900 AD.
That was a serious flaw of the Indian psyche, I contend.
All Invaders had corrupted Conscience, including the Colonial Power of the Buckingham Palace!
More later...
ps. Whether Gandhijis Non-Violent Movement worked or not is hard to decipher... because soon after WW II, British were really beaten up by the War and were mortally wounded and were not willing to hold on to a distant land, India with her inclement weather - they had already looted as much as they can in terms of natural resources to feed their industrialization... some people believe that it was the WW II that forced Britain to give up on India... and not because of what Gandhiji did... he could not do that with the Afrikanars in South Africa, to recall!
Hi Biswa:
So, you concluded that British had MORE conscience than the Muslims!
This is the genesis of bias/prejudice on certain groups!
My view is Indians were weaker and divided which paved the way for the Invaders to take advantage of... the rest was history..
The same time that the British East India came to India, they came to North America... what happened later? Americans fought tooth and nail against the well oiled Military of the Red Coats and drove them out in shame!
But Indians just cowed down and took the assault and subjugation for about 300 years. The same thing was true with the Muslim invaders since 900 AD.
That was a serious flaw of the Indian psyche, I contend.
All Invaders had corrupted Conscience, including the Colonial Power of the Buckingham Palace!
More later...
ps. Whether Gandhijis Non-Violent Movement worked or not is hard to decipher... because soon after WW II, British were really beaten up by the War and were mortally wounded and were not willing to hold on to a distant land, India with her inclement weather - they had already looted as much as they can in terms of natural resources to feed their industrialization... some people believe that it was the WW II that forced Britain to give up on India... and not because of what Gandhiji did... he could not do that with the Afrikanars in South Africa, to recall!
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Govinda
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Though your conclusion was mostly correct! India did not cow down, every rajput and brahmin fought them, be it sultanates, mughals or British. In case of America, the earlier colonies were from Spain, France etc., who genocided the original mexican/american indians and then dared to fight the British for paying taxes. So, the Americans and teh British were kith and Kin, had the same vile.
Whereas millions of Indian Warriors/Brahmins were killed by Mughals already, and the latter became the rulers, after squandering all the wealth and transferring to MECCA and building mosques. Indians, infact fought the British but for the Mughal Armies. British, not in a position to fight the Mughals, started trading with them [followed the same tactics of the Arabs/Mughals before occupying India], then British fought the 'BATTLE OF PLASSEY' with the Nawab of Bengal and won over them. The same Brahmins and Rajputs in the Nawab's Army joined the British, thus British slowely drove the Mughals out.
So, you were comparing Color with B&W!
It didnt mean We Indians were favoring the British either, we were fighting them from within British Army and outside the Army. So, the goal of the Indians were Patriotism and Freedom! and just used all the chances to pursue that. Indian Rebellion of 1857 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Govinda
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That was the story of the Eri kAtha RAmar, seems the collector wanted to fix the breaches of the dam with the temple stones, but during floods he saw the gods guarding the lake, and decided to become the benefactor the new sannidhi for Sita. : Eri Katha Ramar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaWhen Hindus can become atheists, someone from outside may be qualified to know our gods. Why not?
That is exactly why I gave the facts of the blog. According to the data in Adam report [the director of British Education, has got nothing to lie!!! with their keen interest in demography of India!!], out of the total number of 175,089 students, both male and female, elementary and advanced, only 25% Brahmins/upper-caste(with 7% Muslims); 11% vaishyas 50% sudras; and still 15% others, pariyahs. [I dont see how EVR's Reservation policy is anything new or different! other than including Brahmin Bashing/Demeaning!]
Coming to your two tables, I agree Brahmins were the topmost positions in Law (judges, Collectors) and Indian Civil Services, because they wanted to take over, establish different Civil Codes and eliminate the British all-together. They were not part of Sciences like Astonomy, Medicine etc..
Not just that, When Moghuls squandered our temples and driven the artisans, craftsmen, priests, to poverty, most learned brahmins flee to kashmir, Bengal (from where they contributed to education, when all our universities became Arabic). British banned any cultural activity in temples, so the Brahmins were the ones left to revive the carnatic music/dances through separate sabhAs. So, they took those fields of education that focusses on preserving the religion, culture, nation and citizens.
Alberuni [polymath and gen. of Mhd. Ghazni/Caliphate] worte this about India in 970A.D, "during his 30 years ruined the prosperity of the country, and performed those wonderful exploits, by which the Hindus became like atoms of dust scattered in all directions". One should also see their advancements in Math/Science here:
India as Alberuni saw it
Our Generous Kings from Bharata to Rama to Maurya to Gupta, could have easily gifted their thrones to the Rishis or Saints or Learned Brahmins. But the Brahmins never wanted to rule the people, except to follow their scriptures/religion/education.
During British rule, Wisdom was the only one left after all the possibilities for war/fighting/revolt are lost and the enormous no. of famines resulted in the deaths of millions and sheer poverty. After the Queens's takeover of East India Company, there was not other possibility to join them in improving the lives of the dying and desperate public. I feel pity for all our ancestors, be it any varna. And any fallibility in reasoning about their sacrifices, is a dis-grace to our Nationality and Patriotism.
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It is not only the invaders who were corrupt. The Hindu rulers were corrupt as well. They could not look beyond their own taluk or tiny kingdom and so could not band together to resist the outsider. There was no concept of India in any case (all the way back to Ramayana and Mahabharata). It is a miracle that India exists today. We probably have to thank the Brits for that.
After all, we are using their language to communicate in this forum!
After all, we are using their language to communicate in this forum!
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biswa, I didn't expect this from you. On one level I agree that religion as a whole and on balance is a bane to humanity, but I reject this broad brush that Muslims are free of even an iota of conscience.
Human history is littered with untold atrocities, some come to light, some don't. Hitler's atrocities, we know, and we are told not to let it happen ever again. But what about other atrocities, like the ones Israel commits with impunity? Well, they have a pass to whatever they want because (i) holocaust and (ii) USA is Israel's lap dog.
What about the Catholic Church that made a deal with Hitler, how much of a conscience they had at that time, and still have, with the pedophile scandal and their reaction to it?
What about the good old US of A, dropping not one, but two atomic bombs upon heavily populated cities, all for the sake of saving American lives, how much of a conscience they had at that time, and still have with the ongoing wars with death raining down from the sky, directed at civilians and combatants alike -- mostly civilians -- by weekday 9 to 5 warriors sitting some 10K miles away in an air-conditioned bunker?
The world is full of people engaging in and rationalizing monstrous acts, some of these people have the political and economic power to cover it up and even whitewash their atrocities, like the U.S. Others are made out to be irredeemable monsters just because they don't have the megaphone.
So, I submit to you, stereotyping is mean, it affects people negatively and the negative effects are long lasting, please don't do it.
Starting from Balfour Declaration to the establishment of the state of Israel, and on to the 1967 war and the subsequent behavior of Israel, all need to be studied and understood in the proper context. Israel had all the advantages when they came in and occupied a land that belonged to somebody else. They were able to drive out any opposition by force.
Now, all the Palestinians want is much less than what they had before 1967, but Israel wants it all. It wants all the resources, it wants veto power over the Palestinian's affairs, it wants to place its military forces on the eastern border of West Bank -- a demand similar to Pakistan demanding to put its forces along Indian/Bangaladesh border. Yet, it is the Palestinians who are blamed.
The right-wing parties of Israel is so right-wing that they make Netanyahu look like a moderate. If the current trend of building illegal settlement continue, a two-state solution will become infeasible. Then, only two possibilities remain, (i) a one-state solution with Arab majority, or (ii) Israel establishing apartheid laws and become neo South Africa.
Thankfully, this will never happen. With all the economic and military cooperation between India and Israel, India will never abandon its political support for Palestinians. If a day comes when they do this, that is the day when India loses its soul.
Cheers!
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Unfortunately Govinda, you have missed the point, which is, these reports by obscure British officials that cannot be verified are worthless, same as blogposts.
Please see above.
This tells me we are living in two different planets. Thank you for responding to my posts ......
peace ...
Govinda
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Are you serious? British's imperialism (princely states and census) was driven by different reasons, for control, missionary activity, to score profits etc. Even in ancient days, our ancients had Olai/Patra, white boards/ink, by 200BC china had known paper making, whereas Europe knew it only by 1300AD. And the introduction of Printing Press and early newspapers around 1780's, people were always up-to-date about local/national events, which also helped the National Movements/Migrations. The Princes of various states annexed with the British, to achieve some mutual benefits, else they would have been annexed without any representations. Most of those kings became the pramukhs then governors, then diplomats, [also educated in various colleges even during British Times), then became later politicians. So does the Singhs, Scindias, vermas, Gowdas, Reddys, naiks, takurs, oh! forgot the khans/nawabs etc.
So, go thru the list of Princely States, the current heirs/pretenders, who are all mostly politicians. List of Indian princely states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Is Karunanidhi and family or Gandhi and family any different than the kings' hierarchical systems.? So, We all still diverse just ruled by a Parliament and have news to connect us.
The biggest disadvantage also comes with Central Ruling, their corruption will afect all states.
English was globally promoted by British through their colonial power. Actually the origin of all languages is Sanskrit, all ancient empires have Vedic/Sankrit origination. The early languages Greek, Germany, slavic, Russian, Hebrew/Abrabic (with Al/El- prefixed to sanskrit) are different dialects/changes to Sanskrit. With more linguistics scholarship in Europe during Renaissance Period, many greeks/germans/French refined French/Latin to English. Those old empires like Hittite(Isreal), Arabs, Zorasters, Salvic, Egypt, Germany, Greek were all poly-theistic and pagans. [They even practised that Burning Torch/Agnihotra and most of them had tufts.] I am beginning to relate, the various races were those of the 7 rishis.
I will discuss this later with more references. !!!!
With the British education, and Renaissance of Europe in Language and Science, English and Science in the way of English, have become standards. Pity, Our ancients didn't have Patents!!!!
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If you really are serious, you can find the proof yourself; but no one can help if you refuse to acknowledge what is available. Many of the so called academic experts who deposed in the ayodhya case, have been admonished by the judge for giving false, misleading, and outright hypocritical evidence.
Item 1: Recent there was a panel discussion in a prominent tv channel on the topic of attack on bhushan. Two of the panelists were aditya, a kashmiri pundit refugee and yasin malik, a separatist and the moderator was rajdeep sardesai. When sardeasai asked aditya whether he approved the violence against bhushan, aditya's answer was eloquent. In brief, his answer collated from the different intervals he got is as follows: "I will not answer this and refuse to fall into a trap. Rajdeep, you have to answer this. About eighty thousand pundits were driven out, their property looted, many killed and raped, and even today more than fifteen thousand are living in refugee camps in dismal conditions. The terrorist who was responsible for the murder and loot and our exodus is sitting in the panel and I was not told about this. Rajdeep, you have to answer what you and the media have done to expose the misdeeds and murder of our community?
Yasin malik, kept accusing hindu goondas who disrupted the seminar he was to attend in delhi.
item 2:
Keoenraad elst:
"The Nazi Holocaust killed the majority of European Jewry (an estimated 5.1 million according to Raul Hilberg, 5.27 million according to the Munich-based Institut für Zeitgeschichte) and about 30% of the Jewish people worldwide. How many victim groups can say as much? The Partition pogroms killed hardly 0.3% of the Hindus, and though it annihilated the Hindu presence in all the provinces of Pakistan except for parts of Sindh and East Bengal, it did so mostly by putting the Hindus to flight (at least seven million) rather than by killing them (probably half a million). Likewise, the ethnic cleansing of a quarter million Hindus from Kashmir in 1990 followed the strategy of "killing one to expel a hundred",
Item 3: Ten thousand iyengars were killed in srirangam by malik kafur and the temple was closed for about 40 years. In recent times, about 1000 mandyam iyengars were killed by tippu sultan.
Item 1: Recent there was a panel discussion in a prominent tv channel on the topic of attack on bhushan. Two of the panelists were aditya, a kashmiri pundit refugee and yasin malik, a separatist and the moderator was rajdeep sardesai. When sardeasai asked aditya whether he approved the violence against bhushan, aditya's answer was eloquent. In brief, his answer collated from the different intervals he got is as follows: "I will not answer this and refuse to fall into a trap. Rajdeep, you have to answer this. About eighty thousand pundits were driven out, their property looted, many killed and raped, and even today more than fifteen thousand are living in refugee camps in dismal conditions. The terrorist who was responsible for the murder and loot and our exodus is sitting in the panel and I was not told about this. Rajdeep, you have to answer what you and the media have done to expose the misdeeds and murder of our community?
Yasin malik, kept accusing hindu goondas who disrupted the seminar he was to attend in delhi.
item 2:
Keoenraad elst:
"The Nazi Holocaust killed the majority of European Jewry (an estimated 5.1 million according to Raul Hilberg, 5.27 million according to the Munich-based Institut für Zeitgeschichte) and about 30% of the Jewish people worldwide. How many victim groups can say as much? The Partition pogroms killed hardly 0.3% of the Hindus, and though it annihilated the Hindu presence in all the provinces of Pakistan except for parts of Sindh and East Bengal, it did so mostly by putting the Hindus to flight (at least seven million) rather than by killing them (probably half a million). Likewise, the ethnic cleansing of a quarter million Hindus from Kashmir in 1990 followed the strategy of "killing one to expel a hundred",
Item 3: Ten thousand iyengars were killed in srirangam by malik kafur and the temple was closed for about 40 years. In recent times, about 1000 mandyam iyengars were killed by tippu sultan.
N
Nara
Guest
sarang, this is unnecessary! In reverse I can ask you whether you are serious about a critical examination of the available evidence, this kind of back and forth can never be resolved and will never add value. Please present your case without such comments.
Now, let me examine the evidence you have provided for your claim that there was mass murder of "Brahmins and Hindus" by Muslims and Christians.
A TV panel discussion is an exchange of views, this cannot be accepted as evidence of anything.
The violence that ensued partition was perpetrated by both sides and both sides suffered. The reasons for the carnage are complex. If this is mass murder of "Brahmins and Hindus" then it is also mass murder of Muslims by Hindus and Sikhs.
Malik Kafur was a Hindu convert doing the bidding of his masters. He did lead an invading army and killed a lot of people. How many were civilians and how many were "Iyengars" is anybody's guess.
The present population of Sri Rangam is 50,000, not all of whom are Iyengars. If we retrace back some 1000 years ago, the population of Sri Rangam would have been only few hundred, and could not have exceeded a couple of thousand at most. Even if Malk Kafur killed all of them, still your estimate of 10,000 Iyengars is simply untenable, apparently you have just plucked the number of 10,000 Iyengars from ether. What sort of evidence is this for your expansive claim?
Theer have been many wars in our history, many get killed. All sides engaging in wars must be condemned. Condemn Muslim invaders, no problem, but condemn Hindu kings as well who kept fighting internecine wars all the time causing untold misery to ordinary people. Condemn Narasimha Pallavan who sacked and burnt Vathapi. Condemn the Chola kings who ruled with iron fist, how many civilians did they kill?
BTW, a few years later Malik Kafur and his army were driven out of Sri Rangam.
Tippu was a freedom fighter during the first war of independence, aka "Sippoy Mutiny". He is known to have been virulently anti-Christian. There is no record of this 1000 mandayam iyengar killed by Tippu, give some verifiable reference from reputable sources.
Cheers!
Govinda
0
The one thing I agree with you about British, they were like the Mediatrix between Moghuls and Freedom. By the time of British, our intellectuals were robbed into Mecca/Hajj, lost warriors, Money, Indian universities lost to Arabic, vaishyAs/artisans lost to poverty/famines, Without some external powerful force like British, we wouldn't have escaped those moghuls. But British isn't cool and had much conscience either, read about the deadly famines while they tried to re-organize our Agriculture Model.
In our ancient model of ruling, the famines were ecological and were local. With the Mughals and the taxes, India encountered more famines. With British, other than taxes and profits utilized for war reasons, they also re-organized our complete agricultural model and ended up millions of famine deaths. Only in 1770, there were 20 million deaths from famines. Famine in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia One Journalist wrote, " when Mughals had laws of leather, British had laws of iron during famines". The British famines in Ireland, India , Africa made them 3rd world nations [also resulted in AIDS] .
There was no increase in the per capita income of Indian from 1757 to 1947. The glorious Imperial half century - 1872 to 1921 - life expectancy of an Indian fell by staggering 20%. Poverty of India is not due to lack of modernization, but due to its plundering by Moghuls and famines by British.
But we still have not learned the lessons, like British promoted Cotton/Cash crops [even Opium in Bengal!] our govt. promotes GM crops and cash crops for exports/revenue which already resulted in Farmer Suicides and might end up in famines. We are boasting in English about Science education, forgetting to promote agriculture, how dumb!!
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N
Nara
Guest
Understanding past is important to fashion a future that is more just, more peaceful, more progressive, for which we should try to understand what causes conflict and think of ways to avoid them. Sometime back there was a post in this same thread that stated the following:
"But you don't hear this from the abrahamic religions (christianity and islam). We have been through so much for such a long time. Being subject to mass murder, pluder, looting, chased away from our own land, raping, oppression by both religions."
It drew several "Likes" from the usual suspects. This was really disheartening to me when I first read it. There has been more looking back with the express purpose of pinning as much blame on Muslims and Christians as possible. (Aside: the same people bemoan that Brahmins are deliberately bashed for wrongdoings of the past!).
This blame game can be debated and I welcome such a debate if we can gain a critical understanding of the factors, and develop ways to mitigate past injustice and build a more just tomorrow. But, at the same time, we need to also consider the present realities, and to what extent these minorities are a threat and are waiting to subject the pious Hindus to mass murder and plunder. Here are some facts about Muslims in India.
Well, in summary, I urge readers to go beyond mere parochial outlook and see all Indians as human beings first and foremost. Let us not isolate a marginalized minority and make them into monsters, which can end up as a self-fulfilling prophesy, a result that is detrimental to all.
strive for solidarity with all ....
"But you don't hear this from the abrahamic religions (christianity and islam). We have been through so much for such a long time. Being subject to mass murder, pluder, looting, chased away from our own land, raping, oppression by both religions."
This blame game can be debated and I welcome such a debate if we can gain a critical understanding of the factors, and develop ways to mitigate past injustice and build a more just tomorrow. But, at the same time, we need to also consider the present realities, and to what extent these minorities are a threat and are waiting to subject the pious Hindus to mass murder and plunder. Here are some facts about Muslims in India.
- Muslims constitute about 13% of Indian population, yet their representations is 3% in the Indian Civil Service, 1.8% in foreign service and only 4% in the Indian Police Service.
- 31% of Muslims are below the country's poverty line, slightly better than Dalits at 32%, the national average is 20.8%, and for Brahmins it is 13%.
- The literacy rate for Hindus is 65.1%, for Muslims it is 59.1%. Muslims lag behind Hindus in a range of educational measures like enrollment and completion at various levels of elementary and secondary level schools.
- A 2007 study reveals that if you have a Muslim name, you are 33% less likely to be called for a job interview compared to a person of same qualification with a Hindu sounding name.
Well, in summary, I urge readers to go beyond mere parochial outlook and see all Indians as human beings first and foremost. Let us not isolate a marginalized minority and make them into monsters, which can end up as a self-fulfilling prophesy, a result that is detrimental to all.
strive for solidarity with all ....
sangom
0
Dear Shri Nara,
Excuse me for some anecdotal info. I went to Kanpur (from Bombay) in 1965 and was surprised to find the anti-Muslim mentality amongst almost all the cross-sections of the Hindu society there. In public, you would find great camaraderie and even a good level of mutual understanding of the religions, culture and customs, literature and all that, but once the Hindus find themselves together, their attitude towards Muslims would be condescending, at best or open ill-will and hostility at worst.
Having been not exposed to such an attitude towards Muslims in my native Travancore, nor during the busy Bombay life, I was struck very much by this love-hate relationship that I witnessed in Kanpur. Then came the Indo-Pak war. We had compulsory black-outs but from the predominantly Muslim neighbourhoods, we could see everyday powerful searchlights beaming all 360 degrees across the sky, in the hope of aiding the enemy aircraft. Soon the Indian military put an end to this exercise but that incident did tell me that there must be something deeper in the psyches of both the communities.
This aspect of Muslims feeling alienated and claiming to be distinct from India, is an endemic for India. The Hindutva-based parties do try to make capital out of this, in North India and also in Mumbai. The spread of these parties to the southern states have brought in this anti-muslim mentality also here, just as we find many unwanted customs like processions of the Ganesh festival with idols being worshipped in street corners and trying their best to make these processions to start Hindu-Muslim riots, dressing up innumerable kids as Krishnas and parading them through the streets on Gokulashtami day and so on. (Actually Tilak gave birth to the Ganesh festivals of Mumbai to serve his motive of a provocative type of patriotism and he was in Manadalay jail on murder charge, I was told.)
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