What is your opinion on Fate?

[hariharan1972]

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we can go on and on about kalaignar's much famed "rationalism". apart from the examples quoted by shri pannvalan ji and shri rvr ji, kalaignar has never quite executed the challenge of taking oath during inauspicious time.

he had pulled up one of his functionaries for sporting 'kumkum' unmindful of the 'one rupee coin kumkum' worn by his wife, dayalu ammal.

in terms of purity, chennaites can confirm this, his rationalism is only inferior to the 'irresistible cooum'.

re : fate, an interesting discussion and perspectives.

i had a friend, a perfect teetotaller and a perfect gentleman who made significant sacrifices to enable his wife's career to flourish. he had a good career going poised for growth ;

he bought a nice big plot and constructed a beautiful house, with 2 coconut trees actually weaving into his roof ; glass topped roof et all.

he moved in after throwing a gala party, one of best i have attended.

though we worked in different departments, we continued to be in touch, sometimes the official shoulder to cry, gossip or bitch ; i often joined him during his drive back home.

and who would have thought that the day i declined his offer of driving me back home, he would suffer multiple heart attacks during driving and a few hours later, died.

he had no business to die, as far as i'm concerned. i've not been shaken by any other colleague's passing away as his.

certainly fate plays a role ;

having said that, i am quite on the same side as pannvalan ji of not using fate to explain away the failures.

using fate to explain something should be done very cautiously and after thoroughly establishing that we've done everything in our powers to succeed and beyond.

using fate to look inwards is something i would approve ; using fate to browbeat others for one's failure is not something i agree.

afterall 'vidhiyai madhiyaal vellalam'

 

[pannvalan]

Whatever is beyond the domain of human knowledge is called fate;

Whatever happens beyond the control of human beings is called fate;

Whatever begins will have an end too. All of those which began or were born at the same time will not end or die at the same time.

Even in a factory with 100% automation, all products of one particular batch - TV, Car, Mobile Phone etc. - will not last for an identical period of time. Such being the case, can any one predict or diagnose clearly what is inside a man's mind and body, at any time? (without the help of any investigative processes or equipments).

Death arouses fear in a man and shakes his self-confidence as well as arrogance. A person who doesn't think of death, does not fear it.

Accidents are also sudden, unexpected happenings usually producing harm and destruction. Can we call them a divine slip?

 

[kunjuppu]

having attended two funeral within days, i am increasingly confused between fate and faith. predestiny too.

the first funeral was for a white policeman, who burned himself to death, due to electric circuit failure (we suspect) in his home. he was a young 50, with a great career, a fiancee and everything good going for him. then poof, all gone.

just days later another dear friend went back. she was a sweet lady, great fun, trinidadian hindu of indian ancestrage. she would have been married 40 years this june.

for 7 years she had cancer, and kept it away but a few (we were not privy to this, and hence the utter shock). her only child, daughter, a doctor, took care of her mother lovingly the last months.

the husband did the funeral rites. the priest was a srilankan brahmin, and so in addition to the brief sanskrit chant, there was tamil hymns sung, which were refreshingly poignant. however, nothing could describe the sorrowful love of the husband, as he lovingly tendered the last rites to her. those eyes spoke a million!!

the truth of the matter is, that this couple had to wait for 5 years before his family permitted him to marry her, and he would not marry her without their approval.

if you guessed it right, then you would say yes, he must be a tamil brahmin. which he is, 65+ years or so young.

for those in the forum, not familiar with how death is dealt in the west, here we are not permitted to bring the loved one home. they take the remains directly to a funeral parlour. there are trained morticians who help prepare the body.

especially in the case of my burned policeman, i would have thought they would have opted for a closed casket (ie the body is not open). instead his family wanted an open viewing, and the morticians had done a good enough job on his face to mask the fire burns.

same with my lady friend. none of the ravages of cancer was visible. with a pattu sari and a fashionable wig, she looked very traditional tamil woman asleep.

the parlour itself is a big hall, with pews on both sides to seat about 100 guests (in both cases). people come to the front, do the viewing and wait for the mantras. the crematorium, in this case, was behind the parlour itself, and gas fired. so within 4 hours you are given an urn with the ashes.

with a few more suffering cancer, including my immediate loveable boss, i often wonder nowadays about fate. take my boss. he was a chubby healthy guy about 5 weeks ago. suddenly he developed a cough that he could not stop and lost 15 lbs within 2 weeks.

it took a week of testing to come to the ultimate diagnosis - bladder cancer. he has had radiation, which has left him very weak. if he is strong enough to undergo chemo, he can live for 1 1/2 to 2 years; otherwise a couple of months.

why do bad things happen to good people? have all the prayers gone unanswered?

i think every day is a gift. death, definitely, puts our petty stuff in perspective. maybe, this is fate.

 

[amala]

That was a very poignant post Kunjuppuji. I'm sorry for your two friends's demise. I'm sure your boss will recover. I totally agree that everyday is a gift -- thats why its called the "present" (no I didn't think of that on my own unfortunately )

 

[pannvalan]

We have to derive consolation from these two Thirukkurals.

1. Avviya Nenjathu Akkamum, Chevviyan
Kedum, Ninaikkap padum".

Progress and Prosperity of ill-natured persons and Degeneration and Obscurity
of the kind-natured ones deserve a careful and thorough analysis.

2. Azhukkaru idhuvenal vendaa; Sivigai
Poruththanodu Urndhan idai".

Do not bring the topic of fate before the person who carries the palanquin and
the other who rides on it.

 

[happyhindu]

renu,

i don't know if the post above was directed at me.

to clarify, am not an atheist. am very much a theist. but my god concept may be different from yours. also, i do not mix spiritualism with things like genetics, unless there is an appropriate basis to do so.

as far as astrology is concerned, i think there is no proof or disproof that it works or does not work. hard to say really.

and yes, to believe in astrology, one does not need to be a theist. there are many renowed buddhist astrologers.

according to one buddhist monk (dunno if he is an astrologer), just like extra terrestrial phenomenon (like gravitational pull that keeps planets in an elliptical orbit) affects things on earth like trigerring off earthquakes, they also affect the mind, behaviour and thus the fate of humans too.

obviously it is not a proven theory . but it was apparent that for him, astrology had nothing to do with god.

regards.

 

[nachi naga]

re

Fate is nothing but ,a figment of imaginations.And imagination occurs in the mind.Use the mind efficiently,fate becomes a figment of imagination again.Liberate the mind and end the bondage and become free,as the self is nothing but truth awareness joy eternally.

nachi naga.

 

[renuka]

Why not direct it to me dear Renu ?

Obviously, I can't speak for everyone who decline to go along with the god proposition. I am sure it is not a homogeneous group.

Pithru Karma could very well be just a means of respecting the memory of dear parents. Children getting married in the traditional Hindu way may come from compulsions of family members. Names are given by parents and one may very well not want to shed it. Being a nastika does not necessarily mean revulsion for Vedic origin names, does it? Same goes for cremation, it is not uncommon even in the west.

It is indeed strange that some of them believe in astrology. This is hard to explain. They have to come clean.

Screaming "God please help me" is probably just a deep seated cultural response. Going to temples, participating in pooja, etc. are cultural activities that one can engage in without subscribing to any of the supernatural beliefs.

Cheers!

My dearest NaraJi,

You know I will never direct this question to you because deep down inside I feel you are not really an atheist as you call yourself.
I am not saying you are not being truthful of your true nature but I have come to realise that those who love God the most dare to deny and find fault with Him.
For them God is personal and close enough to do so.
We only dare fight and argue with those we love the most because we know they are always there for us.

Dear Nara if I am wrong and you wish to "scold" me, please private message it becos i would be too embarrased if i were to get publically "scolded".

 

[renuka]

renu,

i don't know if the post above was directed at me.

to clarify, am not an atheist. am very much a theist. but my god concept may be different from yours. also, i do not mix spiritualism with things like genetics, unless there is an appropriate basis to do so.

as far as astrology is concerned, i think there is no proof or disproof that it works or does not work. hard to say really.

and yes, to believe in astrology, one does not need to be a theist. there are many renowed buddhist astrologers.

according to one buddhist monk (dunno if he is an astrologer), just like extra terrestrial phenomenon (like gravitational pull that keeps planets in an elliptical orbit) affects things on earth like trigerring off earthquakes, they also affect the mind, behaviour and thus the fate of humans too.

obviously it is not a proven theory . but it was apparent that for him, astrology had nothing to do with god.

regards.

Dear Happy Hindu,

I did not direct this to anyone in specific as i said.
i know you are not an atheist as you had mentioned this several times in other post.
This question was a general question from what i had observed all my life.

Dont worry about our differences.As I had mentiond in another post "the pairs of opposites is the middle name of our very mundane existence "
renu

 

[RVR]

My dearest NaraJi,

You know I will never direct this question to you because deep down inside I feel you are not really an atheist as you call yourself.
I am not saying you are not being truthful of your true nature but I have come to realise that those who love God the most dare to deny and find fault with Him.
For them God is personal and close enough to do so.
We only dare fight and argue with those we love the most because we know they are always there for us.

Dear Nara if I am wrong and you wish to "scold" me, please private message it becos i would be too embarrased if i were to get publically "scolded".

Dr Renuka,

Don't worry. Prof Nara may disagree with your views but will not scold you either in public or private.

all the best

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

Respected members.

This discussion about 'fate' is interesting. When I said there is fate, it was not for using that as an excuse to explain failures. I have seen too many incidents in life.

I am with you here ,in this , Sri Raghy.

At the early part of discussions, one writer has said that it is the unsuccessful who talk about fate. While in general it is so, many times, thank is given to FATE by many for certain positive outcomes.

One personal example. Myself and family planned to visit Kanyakumari,Tiruchendur etc on 26th Dec2004. The trip was meticulously planned. A holiday home room at Kanyakumari was booked for 26 th with great 'influence',as it was peak season on those days. The itinerary was planned to the last detail. But alas! just before starting from home ,I got a message from my 'influence" regretting that due to unavoidable circumstances, the booked room is not available. Though we lost our mood, we started .We rented a hotel room at Nagercoil on 25th Dec afternoon, and planned to go to Kanyakumai early next morning , and go to Vivekananda Rock memorial with the first ferry, as planned .

We hired an auto to have a local tour of Nagercoil.The elderly driver , with his clever manners,extracted our whole plan ,and prevailed upon us to visit Knayakumari, same day as next day roads will be crowded due to Suchindram festival.We engaged him as our driver and guide.We completed Kanyakumari ,and Vivekananda Rock same day, on a grossly tossing ferry.

Next day the autodriver was waiting to take us to the bus stand to send us to Tiruchnedur. We were at Murugan's sannidhanam when Tsunami hit Kanyakumari. What should I say other than thank fate ? Otherwise if my planning was meticulously executed, I shudder to imagine...


There is something that is beyond our control. Shall I call it 'fate', please? Thank you.
It is easy to be judgemental about others. although one may argue that the examples I cited are isolated, unfortunately all the examples had been witnessed by me.

I concur with you Sri Raghy,

In mathematics, when equations ( both sides) do not tally an unknown variable "x", is introduced, and the value of "x' is then calculated with inputs and relatioships. In life, when inputs and outputs do not tally , the unknown factor is FATE or GOD.

" பூஜியதுக்குள்ளே ஒரு ராஜ்யத்தை ஆண்டுகொண்டு
புரியாமலே இருப்பான் ஒருவன்அவனை புரிந்துகொண்டால்
அதுவே இறைவன் "
Thanks to Kavinjar.

The hero inside the zero is the fate or God


Greetings

 

[Nara]

....... if I am wrong and you wish to "scold" me, please private message it becos i would be too embarrased if i were to get publically "scolded".

Dear Renu, Of course I won't scold you, how dare you think I will

(Just in case I get misunderstood, this is just a joke, agreeing with her by saying something that proves the opposite, you know, the irony thing,..... well, forget it....)

 

[pannvalan]

Several events do happen which are beyond human comprehension and beyond our control too.

When they produce good results, we call them miracles.

When they produce negative results or cause harm and hurt, we call them fate.

 

[renuka]

OUR ILLS AND THE DIVINE WILL​

In a small village there once lived a man to whom God had bestowed a special talent — even when he had still been a child he could heal anyone who came to him for help.
In his boyhood itself he was interested in medicine and medical herbs, and he studied much literature especially those belonging to ancient times to enhance his knowledge about the treatment of physical as well as spiritual ailments. He asked God to help him in this endeavour as well as in his service. God loved him dearly and completely supported his noble work.
As days passed by, the number of people who came to him to regain health only increased. The young doctor’s fame spread throughout the region, and soon there came a time when people waited for days together, without a murmur of complain, to receive his advice and medicines. Spending days and nights under the open sky in the doctor's yard did not bother them, for they knew that God had blessed this man and the Lord indeed was working through him.

The kind doctor patiently and dutifully saw his patients, day after day. Each time he didn't know how to help a patient, he asked God for advice, and he was guided by Him to learn new methods of healing. He saw all - children, adults and the elderly, men and women, religious or an atheist. As his wish to heal everyone who came to him grew stronger so did his despair too, for, the more he healed, the more joined the ever growing queues.
The good man really wanted to help everyone who came, but his house was small, and the day held only 24 hours. “Something must change to enable me to serve all these needy people”, he said to himself, and one day turned to God with a request:
“Dear God! Thank You for Your help, Your Love and blessing! Thank You for the skills and the knowledge You have given me. But dear Lord, so many people in this world are suffering from pain, illness and misfortune. They are indeed too many, and I am only one. I need a hospital where I can accommodate all these patients in comfort. Please help me build it!”
God loved the noble desire of the doctor very much, and He promised He would help him and directed him to start the construction right away. Early in the morning the doctor started to prepare everything he needed for the building works.

Everything in this world there is a time and place; one only has to be patient in their waiting and decisive when the time for action finally comes.​

He devoted the first half of the day to the construction and the other part to healing people. He slept only a few hours a night, because he wanted to see as many patients he could till he was completely tired everyday.
And so, both construction and the healing service progressed but slowly. The doctor now once again turned to God for help:
“Dear God! Thank You for the knowledge and the skills You have given me! Thank You for Your love! But everyday I have such an important job to do — to heal the sick — that I don’t have the time for building the hospital. You are almighty; everything is in Your power. Please take mercy on me and on all the people in the yard waiting for me to help them, and by an instance of your Divine will just create the hospital building tonight!”
God was silent for a moment, and then He said in a soft but emphatic tone:

“Dear one, I love you very much. Your heart is pure and your intentions are noble, therefore I will fulfil your request. But before that I want you to know that at the moment there are hundred men heading here from different places to help you build the hospital.
“Twenty of them, on having completed this noble task, would get a chance to become fathers once they return to their families — something they had wanted for many years but which had been impossible because of their karma.
“Twenty more would regain their belief in friendship, co-operation and trust among men, which they could not experience because of their inappropriate actions in previous births, and were therefore often deceived, beaten and humiliated.
“Another twenty men would meet their future wives they had been looking for so long, but which they could not find because for many lives they had not honoured and appreciated family values and had therefore accumulated a heavy karmic load.
“Twenty more of the helpers would be miraculously cured from different illnesses that had made their physical body suffer for the most part of their current lives, because for many lives they had led a libertine lifestyle.

Bhagavan Baba says the best way to be happy is to always believe sincerely that whatever happens is for our own good. Every pain has an expiry date and so it is with pleasure too. But when we surrender every moment of our life to Him and accept every event of our life as His gift as He knows best, there would never be a moment of despair or anxiety. Everyday we would start witnessing miracles in our life, some simple and sweet and others magnificent and mind-boggling. Let us give the reins of our life to the Supreme One! ​

"Another twenty of the men come to help you would regain the knowledge they had acquired over many lives about man’s physical body and soul, they would gain skills similar to yours and would stay with you as trusted helpers.
“But dear one, I love you very much, so you only have to say ‘God, let there be a building!’ and I will create it - but in doing so these 100 men which are on their way to you and thousands more that are connected to them — families, friends, patients — would be robbed of the opportunity to be relieved from the weight of their karma.
“You only have to say out loud: ‘Let there be a building! That is all!”
The man sat for a moment with his head bent low. And then he looked od in the eye and said:




“Thank You God for loving me so much and for letting me choose! Also, I am ever grateful to you for this lesson. Now I know healing is not about building a hospital, it is this whole process that heals.
“Dear Lord, I will now leave as I grasp Your supreme wisdom. I have lots of things to do! I have to duly prepare everything for the arrival of those 100 men that You are sending me.”
God now smiled and seemed very satisfied. For, His dear instrument had realised that for everything in this world there is a time and place; one only has to be patient in their waiting and decisive when the time for action finally comes.
Bhagavan Baba says the best way to be happy is to always believe sincerely that whatever happens is for our own good. Every pain has an expiry date and so it is with pleasure too. But when we surrender every moment of our life to Him and accept every event of our life as His gift as He knows best, there would never be a moment of despair or anxiety. Everyday we would start witnessing miracles in our life, some simple and sweet and others magnificent and mind-boggling. Let us give the reins of our life to the Supreme One!

Courtesy: Rita Ivanova, Latvia​

Illustration: Mrs. Lyn, New Zealand​

Dear Reader, did this article inspire you in any way? Do you have a similar story to share? Please tell us your reflections about this article by writing to [email protected] mentioning your name and country. Thank you for your time. - Heart2Heart Team
​

 

[kr subramanian]

TYhank u renuji for the story. It is very good. expects from you more

 

[S.Sankaranarayanan]

Mr. Ranganathan has mentioned about the clarification about fate by Jagadguru Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati Mahaswamigal of Sringeri. The Jagadguru defines fate as "past exercise of our free will." He also states that if our present exercise of free will is more powerful than our past exercise of free will (in previous births), fate can be overcome.We want to pluck out a nail from wall. We don't know how long is it and with what power it was hammered with how many blows. This is akin to fate. But if we want to pluck it out our present hammering should be more powerful than the past blows and so is the number of blows. Till the nail comes out, we should go on hammering. In the same way we should go on performing good deeds till we reap the final result. This is akin to present exercise of free will.

 

[nachi naga]

SS,

Jagadguru Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati Mahaswamigal of Sringeri,super explanation motivates one to work harder than usual to acheive goals.

nachi naga.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Sir,
Recently I had an opportunity to hear the lecture of a Swamiji.
According to him one can rewrite his horoscope and his destiny(Fate)
if he follows scrupulously the following.

1.One's intention should always be sincere.
2.One should follow the path of TRUTH
3.One should be NON-JUDGEMENTAL
4.One should always be GRATEFUL.
5.One should be "FORGIVE &FORGET"
6.One should give UNCONDITIONAL LOVE TO SELF,OTHERS.
7.One should avoid 'CURSES' from others.
8.One should take'BLESSINGS' of ELDERS.
HIS WEBSITE IS'www.shivyog.com
B.K.



.

 

[sangom]

Is there Fate?

Life itself is the greatest mystery for mankind and it has not been understood clearly even after so much of philosophies and scientific progress. We are born without our knowledge and death is unconquerable. Between these two points we do many things and we do not know what exactly happens after death. When conditions in the present lifetime becomes unfavorable, we usually blame it on Fate; the same reason is adduced when someone else gets very fortunate and that is done to indirectly convey the sense that he (the fortunate person) is not really worthy of all that!

Only one thing is certain: there is some force controlling everything and Man is not the greatest. What that force decrees for each one of us is the ultimate. We can do our duty/ duties sincerely and leave the rest to that power. This has been lucidly brought out by the famous Sloka in Bhagavadgeetha, "karmaNyEva adhikAraha thE mA phalEshu kadA cha naha".

The karma theory of Hinduism very nicely makes the individual responsible for all the minuses but prohibits him from taking credit for the pluses by branding it as ego, boast, daivanindai, lack of humility, etc.

 

[kr subramanian]

Dear Friends,
If there is a controlling power above us and all our deeds are according to his/her wish then where is the question of praying and changing our fate? If all our deeds from a to z is previously programmed where is the question of changing it. If by prayer we can change it then the controlling power is not in full command. Anybody can change his fate according to prayer (when extended can change the destiny of others also by praying for good or bad) then no body will do anything and willbe simply praying.
My school of thought: Jeeva is like battery. We all are toys. The controlling power when puts battery into any of the toy that acts/reacts as per the wish of the controlling power. When the battery is removed (that means death occurs) the toy is of no use. The only difference is that in cases of toys battery can be put in the same toy whereas in real life it is not possible. The controlling power (CP) according to wish changes the course of direction some times up or some times down. The mass death is due the sudden pulling out of battery by the CP from many toys. How else can we explain the mass death due to Sunami/plane crashwhere all Raasi people die whether with SUKKARA DASAI OR SANI DASAI.
Who is CP what will be his next move? As a toy cannot judge the move of its master same is the case with us. From this angle if you look at life it is not in your hand and need not worry. Take it as it is and wait for next move. In this thread I could write so much only because of CP

 

[Nara]

... Anybody can change his fate according to prayer (when extended can change the destiny of others also by praying for good or bad) then no body will do anything and willbe simply praying.

Good one krs

But why do we need think of this CP in anthropomorphic terms, i.e. one with intentions. This CP could very well be just the natural forces, with no intent or purpose. In this case, your prescription for life,

"From this angle if you look at life it is not in your hand and need not worry. Take it as it is and wait for next move."
​

makes a lot of sense.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

....The karma theory of Hinduism very nicely makes the individual responsible for all the minuses but prohibits him from taking credit for the pluses by branding it as ego, boast, daivanindai, lack of humility, etc.

Dear sangom, Greetings!

I am a little less sanguine about this karma theory. On a personal level, it may help an individual face life's challenges with equanimity, but it also serves to keep a large section of the society pinned down with the burden of this imaginary karma from poorva janma.

I am game with the kind of karma in the adage, முற்பகல் செய்யின் பிற்பகல் தாமே விளையும். But the karma theory of Hinduism and its corollary, the cycle of birth, death, rebirth called samshara, is at the root of many our society's ills.

Cheers!

 

[anandb]

Actually the Law of Karma is a wonderful law but has to be understood properly. I think this attachment explains it beautifully.

 

[sangom]

Dear Nara,

Thanks for your greetings.

My views about the Karma theory are the same as yours. But it seems to me that our ancient Law-givers opted for this as the second best. My personal views about Karma and its fall-out are very different. If you are interested I can send a direct e-mail on the subject to you, but I do not want to publicize it.

 

[murali_dharans]

Vidhiyin payane payan

ஆழ அமுக்கி முகக்கினும் ஆழ்கடல்நீர்
நாழி முகவாது நால்நாழி - தோழி
நிதியும் கணவனும் நேர்படினும் தத்தம்
விதியின் பயனே பயன்
- ஒளவையார்