What would be the fate/kismet of Dharun Ravi? An Excellent Portrait in The New Yorker

[Yamaka]

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Dear ALL:

Perhaps, this would tear the Conscience of very many people apart.

Please read this Portrait of Dharun Ravi (a Tamil, probably a TB, I am not sure) and talk candidly on this very sensitive topic.

I will robustly participate on all arguments centering around what happened at Rutgers.

Tyler Clementi’s Suicide and Dharun Ravi’s Trial : The New Yorker


As many of you know, The New Yorker is a very prestigious source of information for millions of readers - it has a very Progressive slant on issues concerning the Society and its intractable problems.

Cheers.

 

[amala]

I had just read this article yesterday and was sharing the link with a friend as well. I feel very sad reading it. I can't understand what went wrong with this boy. He has ruined his future and being so bright as well!

Reading about his arrogant nature and so on I just hope if all ends well, he will repent and be a nicer human being.

 

[Yamaka]

I had just read this article yesterday and was sharing the link with a friend as well. I feel very sad reading it. I can't understand what went wrong with this boy. He has ruined his future and being so bright as well!

Reading about his arrogant nature and so on I just hope if all ends well, he will repent and be a nicer human being.

Hi Amala:

My wife felt the same way. She blames "poor parenting", which is another hot topic to talk about!

We feel that Dharun is not getting good advice from the lawyers and his parents. For he refuses to take the Plea offer from the Prosecutor: Plead guilty, do 600 hours of Probation (community service and good conduct) and no deportation to India after that.

We feel most probably (95% certainty) he will be found guilty if the trial proceeds as expected. This will be considered a "Hate Crime": He may be in jail for 5-10 years and then will be deported to India since he is a Green Card holder here, not a naturalized citizen.

A Shakesperian tragedy unfolding before our eyes. Very sad.

Cheers.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Yamaka,

This kid was 18 when this happened. I look back what I did when I was that age and I think, 'but for the grace of God, go I'. Kids at that age do the stupid things without thinking about the consequences.

Because a life is lost, he is going to be found guilty to get 'absolute' justice. If what you say is correct, don't know why he is fighting instead of taking the plea deal.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

....Please read this Portrait of Dharun Ravi (a Tamil, probably a TB, I am not sure) and talk candidly on this very sensitive topic.

Dear Y, thank you for posting this link, I read all the 14 pages, the poor reader that I am it took a while.

First, not that it matters any, Dharun is most probably not of TB lineage, his father's name Pazhani is a give away, but Tamil he sure is, again because of his father's name.

Y, with all due respects to your dear wife, it is unfair to blame the parents. It is just the luck of the draw, Dharun could be the son of any of us. The U.S. pop culture is only now slowly coming to terms with LGBT issues. Perhaps about the same time as Dharun was having these encounters there was a Captain of an aircraft carrier producing and distributing homophobic videos for his crew, click here for more details. At least Dharun was only curious about getting put out of his own room, clearly not homophobic.

Dharun is an easy scapegoat upon whom the self-righteous can unburden. If he is found guilty of anything more than "teen-age odiousness" it is an indictment of the American criminal justice system.

Having said that, from a purely pragmatic POV, I agree, he should take the 600 hours community service and get on with his life. What the hell is wrong with his lawyers, risking martyrdom for this young man.

Cheers!

---

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

 

[Jaykay767]

Clearly this is a parenting issue !!. No offence to anyone.

None of us (atleast i can refer my family) were ever allowed to insult someone else let alone abuse or fight !!. Infact raising the voice & fighting were discouraged.

In this case, the parents have just left him at the mercy of the american system where tough talk is considered normal & unfortunately this boy got carried away & gave way to hatred, abuse & bullying till it went too far & landed him in a soup.

Agree, it is pragmatic to plead guilty & get on with life ! even if he wins the case, it will not matter because a innocent life was lost in this whole mess & no one will ever forget this !!

 

[KRS]

Dear Jaykay767 Ji,

You said:

In this case, the parents have just left him at the mercy of the american system where tough talk is considered normal & unfortunately this boy got carried away & gave way to hatred, abuse & bullying till it went too far & landed him in a soup.

What do you know about the american system? Have you lived in the USA?
Just wanting to make sure of the context.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear Jaykay767 Ji,

You said:


What do you know about the american system? Have you lived in the USA?
Just wanting to make sure of the context.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Sir,

yes, have lived & studied in US. you can moderate these comments as required.

Abusive language is very common in US schools & colleges - "yeoh you b**t**d wat ya doing tonight?. do u wanna r**e (which means date) a girl ?"

Cheers,
JK

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Sir,

yes, have lived & studied in US. you can moderate these comments as required.

Abusive language is very common in US schools & colleges - "yeoh you b**t**d wat ya doing tonight?. do u wanna r**e (which means date) a girl ?"

Cheers,
JK

Shri Jaykay,

In fact you have avoided hinting many more filthy expressions and behaviors/attitude/practices etc that all are quiet common among guys and girls, in US, right from their teenage. For them male and female are game tools for each other right from their teenagehood. I have couple of relatives in US, in different states. All of them have given the same feedback/info as much as I could hear from my clients for a long time.

Thus these Indian folks settled over their take the maximum efforts to mould their kids as best as possibile by closely associating among themselves, culturally, religiously & spiritually. They just want to make sure that their hard attempts could make their kids well mannered, desciplined etc though are prepared, as a matter of fact, for their kids marrying any one, as they chose. Just want them to be morally good and be pragmatic, maintaining their character, behaviour, attitude and positive perceptions.

 

[Jaykay767]

Hi Ravi,

Absolutely agree !!. yes a lot of Indian parents educate their kids at home on what they should & should not follow. explaining the consequences of their actions, & the cultural differences. they try their best to put them into bhajans, associate themselves with the temples there..

Also one of the reasons why we need to have our base/home back in India. Some of the people migrate & want to live there forever without thinking through the consequences in the long term. many original TB households have nothing in common with our culture now !!

Cheers,
JK

 

[C RAVI]

Hi Ravi,

Absolutely agree !!. yes a lot of Indian parents educate their kids at home on what they should & should not follow. explaining the consequences of their actions, & the cultural differences. they try their best to put them into bhajans, associate themselves with the temples there..

Also one of the reasons why we need to have our base/home back in India. Some of the people migrate & want to live there forever without thinking through the consequences in the long term. many original TB households have nothing in common with our culture now !!

Cheers,
JK

Yes Mr.Jaykay....

If not about TB culture , I can for sure say losing Indian culture.


I very much agreed with your post #6 much before I started exchangng my views with you - about "lapse in parenting by Indian parents", refereing to the case of Dharun Ravi. A preamble note to your post #6.

My cousins who all live in America make yearly visit to India or atleast twice a year. They conduct upanayanam for their kids, be closely attached with culture and traditions of India/TB as much as possible by all the ways and means maintaining relationships with their Indian friends & relatives, other than, celebrating all the festivials/nombu/Ammavaasai tharpanams etc.etc in their home and many cultural/tradition/religious/spiritual activities along with the community group in US.

They say, still they are scared as what the future holds, as their kids keep growing? They are just keeping their fingers crossed and hoping for the best, while instilling values as much as possible, monitoring their kids closely.

 

[amala]

I too read all 14 pages, albeit slowly as some parts were a difficult read for me personally. I am torn between blaming the parents entirely and this boy's peers and as a friend remarked, this is just his individual nature. However many slaps (i was advocating some slaps from childhood, thinking it may make a difference) won't change his core nature.

It is most unfortunate that a life is gone because of this boy, directly or indirectly, the bottomline still remains. A life is gone. I thought he is refusing the 600 hours os community service due to pride. But it could also be due to him sincerely, adamantly believing that he wasn't responsible for Clementi's suicide. Frankly I find that very hard to believe.

Hindsight is always golden. If he had only been less arrogant and not looked down on his roommate's working class roots, had been a tad more friendly, maybe just maybe things would never have turned out this way. I cannot imagine what must be going through his parents and sibling's minds now.

As YamakaJi said, a Shakespearen tragedy unfolding, indeed

 

[sarma-61]

I have not been able to read beyond 4 pages because the details are too much. But I think this is a case of unfortunate parenting and can happen to any parent/s in present day India also because, when it comes to copying or aping bad things from abroad, India and more particularly the upper class 'elites' are always very fast.

In the present case the boy committed suicide because his room mate was a bully, sort of and he found out the suicidee (?) boy's homosexuality. In India this, or even much worse fate could happen in the name of "ragging". That however is only a difference in name.

I feel the accused boy is not a TB and has been brought up with skin-deep western culture; he was thus like the crow in the fable which had forgotten the crow's walk (Indian ethos) but failed to learn the peacock's walk (here, the good culture from the US. Parents should have been responsible for this fundamental fault, imo.

I will say this boy should get maximum punishment under the US law for driving another young boy to suicide, because such fellows will never improve however much platitudes we may give here. The aim of the Law should be to ensure that he is not able to perpetrate such heinous crime a second time; may be 50 years in prison will do him and the dead boy adequate justice.

 

[BostonSankara]

Dear Members,

There is so much to be considered here. Firstly, I am in agreement with Sri KRS in that the things I did at 18 were not always indicative of the 'adult' status my age conferred upon me. Also, in a nation where a Civil war occurred which was greatly inspired by issues of discrimination and inequality and a land where women voting, removal of state control from the institution of marriage, continuing guilt for the Japanese internment lingers, and yet still a land free enough to grant zealots the right to protest near funerals of soldiers passed in war and blame their deaths as god's punishment for homosexuality no less you must understand the climate is harsh to anyone considered engaging in bigoted behavior. I make an assumption here but for the most part the Indians of New Jersey are quite well established and a generally wealthy community. Dharun was more than aware of the wrongness of his actions. He was more than aware of the nation's history and furthermore had agreed to his University's code of conduct prohibiting such behavior. It is heartbreaking to say this but Dharun may well be safer in jail than anywhere else because the repercussions of his actions have certainly turned him into an American Pariah and one who if their identity were openly known and were known to be in a US city would probably be in great danger. People who kill themselves are unstable and no person makes another commit suicide through ridicule. In that Dharun is not guilty of murder as such or responsible for the death itself but he is fully guilty of ridiculing and taunting someone who he did not agree with because he thought it was fun to torment them. One stop by student services expressing his dislike for his roomate's lifestyle would've gotten him a new dorm room (it also would've identified him as a bigot but alas at least one with integrity). I am sorry that you all have to see a young Indian go through this but we must eradicate discriminatory behavior by any and all in this nation BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY. It really is a heartbreaking story.

-
Sankara

 

[renuka]

I feel its just like how like Gossip spoils reputation of anyone knowingly or unknowingly.
Many of us have indulged in "gossiping" and sharing "juicy details" in sometime of our life without actually thinking how it will affect us or the other person.

So in this case it consider "online public gossiping" and a life was lost in that process.

Good eye opener for everyone I guess that as parents may be we should not talk about others in front of our children cos they will grow up to think that its Ok to harshly judge anyone and this might take place in cyberspace as children grow older.

 

[BostonSankara]

It also deserves mention that Dharun is being made an example of here. Just before this occurred a young teenage girl took her own life due to online bullying (facebook etc.) All of her tormentors were minors and couldn't really be charged with much. The public outrage was immense and a silent witch-hunt began. When this occurred and the culprits were all adults the stage was set for retribution and vengeance. It should be understood that Dharun is paying for both his own crimes and those of a group of minors in an unrelated incident.

 

[sarma-61]

Dear Members,

There is so much to be considered here. Firstly, I am in agreement with Sri KRS in that the things I did at 18 were not always indicative of the 'adult' status my age conferred upon me. Also, in a nation where a Civil war occurred which was greatly inspired by issues of discrimination and inequality and a land where women voting, removal of state control from the institution of marriage, continuing guilt for the Japanese internment lingers, and yet still a land free enough to grant zealots the right to protest near funerals of soldiers passed in war and blame their deaths as god's punishment for homosexuality no less you must understand the climate is harsh to anyone considered engaging in bigoted behavior. I make an assumption here but for the most part the Indians of New Jersey are quite well established and a generally wealthy community. Dharun was more than aware of the wrongness of his actions. He was more than aware of the nation's history and furthermore had agreed to his University's code of conduct prohibiting such behavior. It is heartbreaking to say this but Dharun may well be safer in jail than anywhere else because the repercussions of his actions have certainly turned him into an American Pariah and one who if their identity were openly known and were known to be in a US city would probably be in great danger. People who kill themselves are unstable and no person makes another commit suicide through ridicule. In that Dharun is not guilty of murder as such or responsible for the death itself but he is fully guilty of ridiculing and taunting someone who he did not agree with because he thought it was fun to torment them. One stop by student services expressing his dislike for his roomate's lifestyle would've gotten him a new dorm room (it also would've identified him as a bigot but alas at least one with integrity). I am sorry that you all have to see a young Indian go through this but we must eradicate discriminatory behavior by any and all in this nation BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY. It really is a heartbreaking story.

-
Sankara

Shri Sankara sir,

I fully appreciate your above post, except the line in bold font (made by me). I agree that adults in the true sense cannot be ridiculed, ordinarily, to the point of commiting suicide. But there have been cases, isolated may be, when entire families have committed suicide for fear of society's taunts especially when it relates to sexual aspects of the housewife (mother of the family) or s grown-up daughter.

When we deal with college students of the age group 18 or thereabout, it is easier to make fun and drive them to suicide, particularly if the victim finds no hope of legal remedy - the usual scenario in most of India where the police will be pliable to rich and/or politically influential students who will bully in the name of ragging. There was even a case of the son of a Vice-chancellor being punished by the Chennai High Court for such murder in the name of ragging.

You hae yourself said, earlier in the post, "Firstly, I am in agreement with Sri KRS in that the things I did at 18 were not always indicative of the 'adult' status my age conferred upon me." But permit me to tell you thatat age 18+,I was searching for a job and earn something to supplement my father's meagre income so that the family could afford the basic needs in a better way. My brahmin upbringing helped me in not doing anything which did any harm to the reputation of myself or of my family. Many of my friends also had similar growing up. May be the US culture is different.

But today, we have the unmistakable influence of the western culture and most of the things detailed in the NY article are either already affecting the teenagers' lives here, or such evils are fast catching the society in their grip. So sad, that seems to be the price we pay for becoming a global power!

 

[renuka]

On a personal note..I would not like to point finger at any one specific culture for decline in morals,ethics or code of conduct.
After all crimes like murder,rape etc do take place in all societies both east and west.

If we want to reject anything western in that case none of us should be wearing any western attire or even swallow any western medication or drive a western made car.

I feel we just try to look at everyone as a human being and decide how to instill human values in all.

I have yet to meet an Asian man who holds a door for a woman with a smile.

 

[BostonSankara]

Dear Sri Sarma,

... there have been cases, isolated may be, when entire families have committed suicide for fear of society's taunts especially when it relates to sexual aspects of the housewife (mother of the family) or s grown-up daughter....

I realize that this occurs (because of news stories etc.) but it is so very very different from the culture in which I was raised I ask that you give me time to absorb and understand such a concept. I will be looking into cases of this in the near future. Cultural anthropology and social development is a subject very dear to my heart and I really do try my best to understand things even if they are completely alien to me.

But today, we have the unmistakable influence of the western culture and most of the things detailed in the NY article are either already affecting the teenagers' lives here, or such evils are fast catching the society in their grip. So sad, that seems to be the price we pay for becoming a global power!

With heightened power comes heightened responsibility. It may be more important now than ever for Indians to embrace this fact of life in this inspirational time of development and change for the sub-continent.

-
Shankar

 

[saarangam]

The report is dated February 6, 2012 which is still two days away.

 

[BostonSankara]

The print release date most likely.

The report is dated February 6, 2012 which is still two days away.

 

[Yamaka]

I too read all 14 pages, albeit slowly as some parts were a difficult read for me personally. I am torn between blaming the parents entirely and this boy's peers and as a friend remarked, this is just his individual nature. However many slaps (i was advocating some slaps from childhood, thinking it may make a difference) won't change his core nature.

It is most unfortunate that a life is gone because of this boy, directly or indirectly, the bottomline still remains. A life is gone. I thought he is refusing the 600 hours os community service due to pride. But it could also be due to him sincerely, adamantly believing that he wasn't responsible for Clementi's suicide. Frankly I find that very hard to believe.

Hindsight is always golden. If he had only been less arrogant and not looked down on his roommate's working class roots, had been a tad more friendly, maybe just maybe things would never have turned out this way. I cannot imagine what must be going through his parents and sibling's minds now.

As YamakaJi said, a Shakespearen tragedy unfolding, indeed

Dear Amala:

I like your analysis of the situation and the whole tragedy.

When this happened in 2010, I asked my son A about his experience at Stanford (A graduated in 2011, thus he is a few years older than Dharun/Tyler)

A's first year roommate was like Tyler. When both of them had a first "Frank Talk", the roommate confided that he was a gay, and he needed the help and support of A, for which A pledged to help him out whichever way possible.

A's fourth year roommate was also a gay. The same thing happened. Now, these boys are thick friends that they will do anything to each other all their life. They all admire of A's achievement and A always talks good and high of his friends. He never lets down his roommates, classmates both girls and boys. They have a network that they will keep for their life.

A feels Dharun is the opposite of him... perhaps due to how his parents viewed the whole LGBT issue. If they had made "bad comments" at home innocently or otherwise, young Dharun picks it up and elaborates in his mind.

Also, another thing this NY Report highlights is that Dharun "Hates Poor People" and Tyler is "Poor".

Again, what was the perspective of Dharun's parents on the Social Justice of Poor and Rich... and who is Rich, who is Poor and the whole economic and Sociology of it...

Granted not knowing Ravis at all, it is premature to blame the parents at this point in time.

If, a big if, Ravis hated LGBT and are very proud of their being "Rich", they sowed the seed of hatred and bigotry in the young and mischievous mind of Dharun, which paved the way for this Shakespearen Tragedy, I dare say.

They were the Authors...if they were bigots.

Yes, hindsight is perfect 20/20.

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

my friend, you made many of us to feel embarrassed.

my friend, i am calling 108 now, if they dont pick up, i will call 100. if you are in US, its 911.i mean, im referring this to moderator.

kindly dont resort to personal attacks..thank you

Hello Shiv:

Please allow dear ashwin to express his views. He has the Right to say what he wants to say.

I don't want Praveen/Moderator remove or edit his views.

I want him to know that I have questioned the very basic of Islam long time ago in this Forum:

That Prophet Muhammed never visited Jerusalem anytime in his life time, and the "Holy Journey" (during the Holiest of Ramadan) could not have occurred overnight.

I say this as an Atheist and a history buff.. How will this make me a "Fanatic Muslim", Ashwin?

Cheers.

 

[BostonSankara]

Dear Yamaka,

May I ask where "A" spent his teenage years? Was it in the states? There is something that must be said for the fact that American media and, I am sure, Dharune's peers exacerbated the glorification of riches and general culture of ridiculing others. I can attest to you it is -sadly- a very well known fact that our culture of movies and television glorify affluence. I am sure that these factors effected Dharun to some degree to an extent that his parents would've had little control over. I am not pardoning them of their responsibility to raise wise and well-rounded children but I find it difficult to lay the blame onto them as well. "A" may be the result of excellent parenting and therefore able to avoid such pitfalls of this culture but many kids with good parenting fall astray as well.

-
Sankara

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Yamaka,

May I ask where "A" spent his teenage years? Was it in the states? There is something that must be said for the fact that American media and, I am sure, Dharune's peers exacerbated the glorification of riches and general culture of ridiculing others. I can attest to you it is -sadly- a very well known fact that our culture of movies and television glorify affluence. I am sure that these factors effected Dharun to some degree to an extent that his parents would've had little control over. I am not pardoning them of their responsibility to raise wise and well-rounded children but I find it difficult to lay the blame onto them as well. "A" may be the result of excellent parenting and therefore able to avoid such pitfalls of this culture but many kids with good parenting fall astray as well.

-
Sankara

Dear Sankara:

Nice meeting you here.

Briefly, I am from a small hamlet called Panaikulam in the rural Ramnad Tk, District, TN and I married a TB from Trichy (I am not a B, but an Atheist) and we both came to US in 1979.

We are Naturalized US citizens for a long time.

A was born and raised in Houston, TX. He went to good Public Schools. His sister (27) went to Cornell, and then to Medical School in TX. Now she is an MD.

Ours is a Secular household. We are Progressives at heart on all the social and religious matters... and maybe bit Fiscal Conservatives.

For us, being "Rich" means nothing, and helping the "Poor" is very important. That's our life in the US. And we enjoy every bit of it everyday.

Cheers.