What would be the fate/kismet of Dharun Ravi? An Excellent Portrait in The New Yorker

[BostonSankara]

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Dear Yamaka!

It is a pleasure to meet you here as well. Thank you for sharing. As you identify as an Atheist I must recommend the you read Richard Dawkins book 'The Blind Watchmaker' you will love it (if you haven't already read it). Another brilliant and prominenbt atheist, physicist, and cosmologist you might enjoy is Prof. Lawrence Krauss. Here is one of his greatest talks giving on how a universe may emerge from nothing with heavy argument of the theory's feasibility based on math and physics....
'A Universe From Nothing' by Lawrence Krauss, AAI 2009 - YouTube

I hope you enjoy them both.

I am pretty devoutly Hindu myself though that term is quite ambiguous. I am a scholar first and foremost and I highly enjoy inspecting the interface of science, technology, and culture especially in regards to degrees of knowledge held and a culture's degree of religiosity and there "seemingly" inverse proportionality. I however find that withing Hinduisms many schools there is an agreeable interface between all the physics and chemistry (my own field) that I know and religion.

Thanks for your contributions and I look forward to many enjoyable debates/conversations.

-
Sankara

PS You must be so (rightfully) proud of your children's academic achievements!!!! How fantastic!

Dear Sankara:

Nice meeting you here.

Briefly, I am from a small hamlet called Panaikulam in the rural Ramnad Tk, District, TN and I married a TB from Trichy (I am not a B, but an Atheist) and we both came to US in 1979.

We are Naturalized US citizens for a long time.

A was born and raised in Houston, TX. He went to good Public Schools. His sister (27) went to Cornell, and then to Medical School in TX. Now she is an MD.

Ours is a Secular household. We are Progressives at heart on all the social and religious matters... and maybe bit Fiscal Conservatives.

For us, being "Rich" means nothing, and helping the "Poor" is very important. That's our life in the US. And we enjoy every bit of it everyday.

Cheers.

 

[Nara]

... I am torn between blaming the parents entirely and this boy's peers and as a friend remarked, this is just his individual nature.

..... But it could also be due to him sincerely, adamantly believing that he wasn't responsible for Clementi's suicide. Frankly I find that very hard to believe.

Hindsight is always golden.

Dear Amala, for whatever reason Dharun's parents refused to be interviewed. So we have nothing very much about them in the article. It is easy to speculate about their prejudices and biases and blame them. I find that very unfortunate. As Jesus would say, let those with no sin cast the first stone.

Most Indian parents have no clue what the youngsters go through in school. This is especially true when they reach teenage years. Most of us muddle through. It is easy to cast aspersions on somebody else, if it was my own son or daughter it would be totally different.

Those who have read the article will get a clear picture of what took place. Dharun was not homophobic by any stretch, he repeatedly says to his pal 'idc". He readily agreed to give Tyler the privacy he wanted. But he went too far with his curiosity.

To say I hate poor people, or to actually hate poor people, is stupid, and just that, stupid. To try to see his character through the window of this comment is not right. Once again, who among us have never said anything stupid in all their lives.

What drove Tyler over the edge is anybody's guess. What if he had an argument with his boyfriend and that was the tipping point. I am not saying that is what happened, but we don't know anything about what actually happened during those last moments of Tyler's life. Even the prosecutors are not holding Dharun responsible for Tyler's death. Tyler's death is a tragedy.

Before Tyler, there have been a spate of teen suicides brought on by serious bullying. Dharun, who didn't do any bullying at all, is paying the price for all those other bullies. I am not condoning what Dharun did, but to hold him even indirectly responsible for Tyler's death, or worse, accuse bad parenting, is a bit too much.

Cheers!

---

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

 

[Jaykay767]

I am pretty devoutly Hindu myself though that term is quite ambiguous. I am a scholar first and foremost and I highly enjoy inspecting the interface of science, technology, and culture especially in regards to degrees of knowledge held and a culture's degree of religiosity and there "seemingly" inverse proportionality. I however find that withing Hinduisms many schools there is an agreeable interface between all the physics and chemistry (my own field) that I know and religion.

Hi,

my earlier post may be of interest to you - "Vedic texts & Religion are being proved correct by Science" in this section "General Discussions" in page 2.

you can also refer to my blog - http://dravidiansegyptians.blogspot.in/

Cheers,
JK

 

[BostonSankara]

Dear Sri Jaykay,

I'll check it out. Thanks for the share!

-
Sankara

Hi,

my earlier post may be of interest to you - "Vedic texts & Religion are being proved correct by Science" in this section "General Discussions" in page 2.

you can also refer to my blog - Hi, My First Blog : Dravidians are the descendants of the famed Egyptians !!

Cheers,
JK

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Amala, for whatever reason Dharun's parents refused to be interviewed. So we have nothing very much about them in the article. It is easy to speculate about their prejudices and biases and blame them. I find that very unfortunate. As Jesus would say, let those with no sin cast the first stone.

Most Indian parents have no clue what the youngsters go through in school. This is especially true when they reach teenage years. Most of us muddle through. It is easy to cast aspersions on somebody else, if it was my own son or daughter it would be totally different.

Those who have read the article will get a clear picture of what took place. Dharun was not homophobic by any stretch, he repeatedly says to his pal 'idc". He readily agreed to give Tyler the privacy he wanted. But he went too far with his curiosity.

To say I hate poor people, or to actually hate poor people, is stupid, and just that, stupid. To try to see his character through the window of this comment is not right. Once again, who among us have never said anything stupid in all their lives.

What drove Tyler over the edge is anybody's guess. What if he had an argument with his boyfriend and that was the tipping point. I am not saying that is what happened, but we don't know anything about what actually happened during those last moments of Tyler's life. Even the prosecutors are not holding Dharun responsible for Tyler's death. Tyler's death is a tragedy.

Before Tyler, there have been a spate of teen suicides brought on by serious bullying. Dharun, who didn't do any bullying at all, is paying the price for all those other bullies. I am not condoning what Dharun did, but to hold him even indirectly responsible for Tyler's death, or worse, accuse bad parenting, is a bit too much.

Cheers!

---

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

Dear N:

While I agree mostly with dear Amala, your point is also well taken: We don't know anything about Ravis as of now. Maybe, something will come out sooner or later.

Also, as per the NY article, Dharun got 2.88 GPA from his high school, and his parents have been praising him sky high in their Facebook.

As a parent, I see this very odd...

If my kids had 2.88 GPA, I will be kicking myself for being negligent (for not forcing them to be good diligent students).

I get the feeling poor Dharun was wasting lot of his time in all sorts of extra-curricular activities and BSing with a total discard for serious studies.

Maybe, he was also into some "smoking" (weed) problem????!!!! I may be reading too much here.

If he was, then everything makes sense to me: He was not a good student and his mind was acting in weird ways - a problem many high school students in the US (and in any big cities in India and elsewhere) go thru everyday.

More later...

Cheers.

 

[BostonSankara]

Ha Ha! Somebody had to say it!

Indeed. This is a low B!

The language of the article implies that he was regularly using marijuana for what it's worth.

-
Sankara

If my kids had 2.88 GPA, I will be kicking myself for being negligent (for not forcing them to be good diligent students).

 

[Nara]

..., as per the NY article, Dharun got 2.88 GPA from his high school, and his parents have been praising him sky high in their Facebook.

......

Maybe, he was also into some "smoking" (weed) problem????!!!! I may be reading too much here.

Y, all I wanted was people to not make speculative judgements and you are doubling down. Alright, have it your way.

BTW, what is wrong with 2.88 GPA? I know a lot of straight A students getting into lot of trouble. If Dharun is snobbish about money to you, your disdain for average GPA comes across as a kind of GPA snobbish on your part, sorry!

Whatever you and I may think of GWB, he was a C student and got regularly hammered in his youth and yet made it to the top office of the land. His challenger in 2004 was also a C student.

Put aside all this self promotion, have a little humanity for this kid, don't dump the tragedy of Tyler's death and the homophobia of half the nation on this kid's head.

Cheers!

---

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

 

[amala]

Yes i do take you point that Dharun's parents cannot be blamed per se. But i feel the contempt he had for poor people, looking down on Tyler for being "uncool", looking down on Tyler for not being as tech savvy as he (Dharun) is, learned behaviour that children absorb from their family/parents/relatives/peers. If we note his conversations with his Asian friend some Tam guy or other, his friend Tam was also contemptous of Tyler.

But i agree that Dharun was probably not a homophobe. But he did gossip about spying on Tyler in his public twitter (anyone/everyone could have read it) and make some very unkind remarks. He humiliated Tyler in cyberspace, as public as it could have got. How is this not considered bullying, i don't understand. The only thing he didn't do was to video the whole thing and upload it online.

 

[Nara]

.... He humiliated Tyler in cyberspace, as public as it could have got. How is this not considered bullying, i don't understand. The only thing he didn't do was to video the whole thing and upload it online.

Dear amala, He did wrong, but he is being made out to be a scapegoat for lot more than what he did, everything bad about internet, youth, pop-culture etc., is being placed on his head and his parents, that is too bad, that is what I think. I have said all I have to say.

Cheers!

---

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

 

[Yamaka]

Y, all I wanted was people to not make speculative judgements and you are doubling down. Alright, have it your way.

BTW, what is wrong with 2.88 GPA? I know a lot of straight A students getting into lot of trouble. If Dharun is snobbish about money to you, your disdain for average GPA comes across as a kind of GPA snobbish on your part, sorry!

Whatever you and I may think of GWB, he was a C student and got regularly hammered in his youth and yet made it to the top office of the land. His challenger in 2004 was also a C student.

Put aside all this self promotion, have a little humanity for this kid, don't dump the tragedy of Tyler's death and the homophobia of half the nation on this kid's head.

Cheers!

---

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

Dear N:

Very nice post... to tell you the least!

1. Nothing wrong with getting GPA 2.88. But his parents praising him sky high is little odd definitely to me! You may call me by whatever name: A Weirdo.. a Loony... whatever.

2. Smoking Weed & BSing as a student is a NO, NO, No to me. Call me old fashioned, or whatever.

3. I cry for poor Tyler, the Innocent Victim. And you want to defend the Villain Dharun & his "Rich" "bombastic" parents!!! (I know I am rubbing you on the wrong side!! hhaa haa )

4. Remember, there is probably a "Suicide Note" that Tyler left behind. That will most probably mention of what Dharun did to him, and the mental stress and desperation he went thru etc.

5. There are multiple counts of felonies that Villain Dharun did (I know he is only 18 years old, I feel for him too - that's why most people are torn apart by this incident).

If the trial proceeds starting Feb 21 as planned, and if he is convicted even by 2 or 3 counts, Villain Dharun will learn the REAL good lessons of life.

Tyler's parents also need some support, please remember.

Take it easy, dear N.

Cheers.

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

I also read the whole story carefully. These are my conclusions, based on what I read:

1. Seems to me that Sri Dharun was a jerk (he might have changed now). Seemed to want to be accepted by others from a rich community. Looks to be very immature. Definitely made a huge mistake, by organizing for a party on the second time.

2. Tyler, I think was passive aggressive. Did not know how to express himself. One thing struck me. Even though blessed with a talent that to some was of getting in to Julliard type of talent, he seemed to be not really attuned to that. His open requests for the room also tells a lot about his not caring who would know what he was doing. I really think it is very likely that he used the incident to get angry and kill himself, but there are hints in the story about his relationship with his mother. He knew about the twitters about him by Dharun even before he came to the school, yet did not confront him.

3. I do not think that the case against Dharun is strong - otherwise they would not have offered the last plea bargain knowing the backlash they would get from all the gay rights orgs and the public. I think it is wrong to call Dharun 'villain'. An immature kid, with wrong values who seemed to have odious friends. His friend Tam is a piece of work. But there are no laws against for being a jerk.

4. I feel sorry for both parents. Just an unfortunate situation.

Regards,
KRS

 

[sarma-61]

On a personal note..I would not like to point finger at any one specific culture for decline in morals,ethics or code of conduct.
After all crimes like murder,rape etc do take place in all societies both east and west.

If we want to reject anything western in that case none of us should be wearing any western attire or even swallow any western medication or drive a western made car.

I feel we just try to look at everyone as a human being and decide how to instill human values in all.

I have yet to meet an Asian man who holds a door for a woman with a smile.

Smt. Renuka,

As your personal opinion (I would not like...) you are fully entitled to any view whatsoever. But when that personal view is written in a post in a public forum like this, I feel it is no longer confined within the boundaries of "personal view" but becomes an opinion expressed publicly for others to either support and defend, or differ.

Hence, may I take the freedom to differ from your pov and say that in this world many things do not fall under "entire or nothing"? For example take food items; we use a number of leafy vegetables but nobody is insisting that man should, therefore, eat each and every leaf. Same holds good for grains, and many other things.

I therefore feel that each culture should pick and chose whatever will be healthy and beneficial for it, from other cultures and should avoid hundred percent aping, mindlessly. Perhaps, you will agree as a Medical Doctor, that people should preferably chose what they eat, depending on their inherent health condition and should not just go on eating whatever is served/available.

As to asian man holding the door for a woman (is the "with smile" attached to the woman or holds?) that is not in our Tabra culture a very negative thing; (I cannot talk for all asian men, obviously.) Simply saying "vAngO" or "vArungO" if the door is open (this is the case in most Indian homes) is enough respect even for my grandmother or lady teacher. I suppose we had woman's equality as our aim and not subservience to woman.

 

[C RAVI]

Smt. Renuka,

As your personal opinion (I would not like...) you are fully entitled to any view whatsoever. But when that personal view is written in a post in a public forum like this, I feel it is no longer confined within the boundaries of "personal view" but becomes an opinion expressed publicly for others to either support and defend, or differ.

Hence, may I take the freedom to differ from your pov and say that in this world many things do not fall under "entire or nothing"? For example take food items; we use a number of leafy vegetables but nobody is insisting that man should, therefore, eat each and every leaf. Same holds good for grains, and many other things.

I therefore feel that each culture should pick and chose whatever will be healthy and beneficial for it, from other cultures and should avoid hundred percent aping, mindlessly. Perhaps, you will agree as a Medical Doctor, that people should preferably chose what they eat, depending on their inherent health condition and should not just go on eating whatever is served/available.

As to asian man holding the door for a woman (is the "with smile" attached to the woman or holds?) that is not in our Tabra culture a very negative thing; (I cannot talk for all asian men, obviously.) Simply saying "vAngO" or "vArungO" if the door is open (this is the case in most Indian homes) is enough respect even for my grandmother or lady teacher. I suppose we had woman's equality as our aim and not subservience to woman.

Very well said Shri Sarma-61...

 

[renuka]

Smt. Renuka,

As your personal opinion (I would not like...) you are fully entitled to any view whatsoever. But when that personal view is written in a post in a public forum like this, I feel it is no longer confined within the boundaries of "personal view" but becomes an opinion expressed publicly for others to either support and defend, or differ.

Hence, may I take the freedom to differ from your pov and say that in this world many things do not fall under "entire or nothing"? For example take food items; we use a number of leafy vegetables but nobody is insisting that man should, therefore, eat each and every leaf. Same holds good for grains, and many other things.

I therefore feel that each culture should pick and chose whatever will be healthy and beneficial for it, from other cultures and should avoid hundred percent aping, mindlessly. Perhaps, you will agree as a Medical Doctor, that people should preferably chose what they eat, depending on their inherent health condition and should not just go on eating whatever is served/available.

As to asian man holding the door for a woman (is the "with smile" attached to the woman or holds?) that is not in our Tabra culture a very negative thing; (I cannot talk for all asian men, obviously.) Simply saying "vAngO" or "vArungO" if the door is open (this is the case in most Indian homes) is enough respect even for my grandmother or lady teacher. I suppose we had woman's equality as our aim and not subservience to woman.

Dear sir,

Dont get me wrong..I was talking about doors in public places and not house doors.
What I meant to say is we Asians also have to learn from Westerners some good stuff just like how they can learn from us too finer stuff.

Its not being being subservient to a woman or a man for that matter but just being polite so that the door doesnt slam on anyones face.

Yes sir..you are right about equality..thats why I have even held the door for men with a smile too.

 

[amala]

Its not subservience. I believe its called chivalry, an unfamiliar and alien concept to our menfolk in the subcontinent

 

[prasad1]

Its not subservience. I believe its called chivalry, an unfamiliar and alien concept to our menfolk in the subcontinent

Dear Amala, you are painting all the menfolks here with a broad brush, and you are doing a disservice to us.

 

[amala]

My humble apologies PrasadJi. Ok just the menfolk who think chivalry = subservience then! . Better?

 

[BostonSankara]

This custom (the American form of it) was and is still practiced in the south where I am from. As many of you can tell by my screen name I now live in the north. This custom is controversial. Simply because EVERYTHING has to be controversial these days it seems! Down south it is customary for a man to open a door FOR ANYONE (please take not of that) this courtesy is not only meant for women. Anytime a group is entering a building the custom is for the first man to reach the door to open AND HOLD IT for the entire party. He then meets back with his lady etc after entering last. THe custom is such in the southern states than not opening a door for a woman you are with will earn you cross looks from other men if witnessed.

Now for the other 3/4 of America this is not so. In fact I have been request NOT to open doors by women as they feel it is a separatist treatment that undermines their independence. This is an extreme view of course but one worth recognizing nonetheless.

The idea behind this is not subservience but protection and courtesy. As the first to open a door you are the first to be subject to a room (possibly unknown contents) first. Opening a door is also considered lifting an obstacle. Men down south do not let women lift heavy things if at all possible. For example the taking out of garbage is relegated to a man's housework for this reason.

I hope that adds some scope for you all in looking at our funny custom of door opening.

Its not subservience. I believe its called chivalry, an unfamiliar and alien concept to our menfolk in the subcontinent

 

[prasad1]

Taking the other side of the equation.
We were on a cruise, being subservient or chivalrous I was carrying 2 cups of coffee.
I had to open a door that swung in and not out, i was struggling, lot of ladies passed me without any offer of help till a kid realized my predicament, and held the door open for me.

There is something to do with empathy i guess.

 

[Yamaka]

Hello ALL:

On different styles of parenting, probably you might have heard of the Tiger Mom /Parent (I guess her name is Amy Chua - an American of Chinese origin).

Here is about French Style: Why French Parents are Superior?

Why French Parents Are Superior by Pamela Druckerman - WSJ.com

I know there will be very controversial remarks and observations from our Indian Parents.

Please give your well considered views on this topic.

Thanks

Y

 

[prasad1]

Going back to the thread.
Would this case be prosecuted if the person committing the suicide was NON-White and Mr. Dharun Ravi was Mr. David Smith a rich WASP boy?

 

[biswa]

Dear Sir,

yes, have lived & studied in US. you can moderate these comments as required.

Abusive language is very common in US schools & colleges - "yeoh you b**t**d wat ya doing tonight?. do u wanna r**e (which means date) a girl ?"

Cheers,
JK

This sounds veeerry far-fetched. I admit that I have never attended a US school, but I have attended a US college. And I have never heard such language. People seem to have the misguided notion that the US is the land of promiscuity. Whatever is happening in the US is happening in India as well.

BTW my son is​ attending a school in the US and he gets reprimanded even if he uses the word "dude".

 

[renuka]

Whatever is happening in the US is happening in India as well.

Biswa... I strongly disagree and would like you to rephrase that statement.
Why are you leaving the rest of the world out?

You should rewrite it as Whatever is happening in the US is happening all around the world as well.

 

[C RAVI]

Whatever is happening in the US is happening all around the world as well.

Offcourse...This is what is the impact of western culture's infiltration. As biswa has indicated, and if thats what is happening in majority, probably US society has started working towards social betterment for a safe and healthy society to prevail.

Descipline in schools not enough for shapping the kids personality. Good parenting and socially pacticing culture/behaviour/attitude/perceptions etc etc.. makes the absolute difference for the better.

 

[renuka]

Offcourse...This is what is the impact of western culture's infiltration. As biswa has indicated, and if thats what is happening in majority, probably US society has started working towards social betterment for a safe and healthy society to prevail.

Descipline in schools not enough for shapping the kids personality. Good parenting and socially pacticing culture/behaviour/attitude/perceptions etc etc.. makes the absolute difference for the better.

Dear Ravi,

Sometimes even the best of parents have worst of kids..nothing really works sometimes.
My mum had tried so hard to instill certain stuff in me which I never really picked up cos I grew up thinking I will do what I feel is right to me.I never fought back but was just waiting for adulthood so that I can do what I felt is right to me.

So I would not want to shift some of the blame to parents..its not fair also cos some of them do a real good job its just that some kids just dont change.