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who is a brahmin?
- Thread starter vivekam.vairagyam
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Agreed, when one sees the Brahman in all beings then caste, creed etc do not matter at all. But, everyone is not a "Gyani" of the highest order? Do the artists perform for spiritual gratification?
Though this topic about the artists does not pertain to the query of "who is a brahmin', it is pertinent that as a group one has to observe certain norms. Can one say that because Lord Krishna took away the clothes of the gopis and asked them to come before him as such, the act is justified even if we do it?
When the pope sings Krishna bhajans and the mullahs sing hyms of Rama, then it is true samathuvam (I think it is asking too much)... In the meantime, can we not stretch ourselves overtly to please the other? That is the question.
Regards,
Seshadri
The Least Expected of Brahmins .. according to mahaperiyavaa ...
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap7.htm
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap7.htm
VV-Ji,
The kamakoti website is so popular, am sure everyone on this forum has read it.
The whole point is this: it really is not possible for ppl to go back to old professions. And kids wud rather go to music class, abacus class, etc, rather than spend an hour every evening for 10 years committing the vedas to memory (esp when they do not have any other friend doing this). Even if they did memorize, there is no saying they will not be forgotten or overlooked once the person starts living a mainstream life as an adult (perhaps in some other country).
Practically speaking, it appears to me, the only way left is to support existing people and prevent them from quitting; by propagating the idea that it wud be nice if every hindu keeps aside 1% (or more) of his annual income for his dharma.
In Tamilnadu, it is really baffling how people of the past that were at the forefront of temple (re)contruction and related dharma activities, not only stopped spending there but instead diverted the money to some crank with a 'justice' raagam sung the apaswaram way [not sure abt this, but i heard that large scale spending on dharma stopped by the 1920s by most of the NBs (?) ]. Imho, all of them got utterly fooled in their desire to please the british, who they thought wud rule India forever. Some woke up just too late.
In most other states, people do not hesitate to spend on their faith. For all the richness of the temples that dot the tamilnad landscape (plus with all those websites on temples notwithstanding), i hear money for temples there is not forthcoming (meaning, it is not coming in from across various strata of the society and is very insufficient). Maybe there is someway to revive this tradition of keeping money aside for dharma; or the create the personal involvement space from everyone.
Aside from all this, vv-ji, please i request you to clarify
a) what is the surrender to the 'manana' of the shruthi that you mentioned in your earlier post, how is it done.
b) what is the metaphor in practice as regards brahmavarta.
c) without upanayanam since it possible to gain mantradrishti (like mahavtar babaji and other sanyasis), what would be the vedic stand on this.
d) shruthi and the smriti as final constitution:- is it an undefiable law ? What are the consequences of not following it as regards the concept that moksha can be sought by anyone?
e) how different is the 'vedic" way different from the "tantra" way? from what i have come across, the tantra way is not opposed to the vedic way, it just says all those 'ritual samskaras' are not necessary; hence the provision for that is not made. But if one does wish to follow it, there is no stopping him.
Regards.
The kamakoti website is so popular, am sure everyone on this forum has read it.
The whole point is this: it really is not possible for ppl to go back to old professions. And kids wud rather go to music class, abacus class, etc, rather than spend an hour every evening for 10 years committing the vedas to memory (esp when they do not have any other friend doing this). Even if they did memorize, there is no saying they will not be forgotten or overlooked once the person starts living a mainstream life as an adult (perhaps in some other country).
Practically speaking, it appears to me, the only way left is to support existing people and prevent them from quitting; by propagating the idea that it wud be nice if every hindu keeps aside 1% (or more) of his annual income for his dharma.
In Tamilnadu, it is really baffling how people of the past that were at the forefront of temple (re)contruction and related dharma activities, not only stopped spending there but instead diverted the money to some crank with a 'justice' raagam sung the apaswaram way [not sure abt this, but i heard that large scale spending on dharma stopped by the 1920s by most of the NBs (?) ]. Imho, all of them got utterly fooled in their desire to please the british, who they thought wud rule India forever. Some woke up just too late.
In most other states, people do not hesitate to spend on their faith. For all the richness of the temples that dot the tamilnad landscape (plus with all those websites on temples notwithstanding), i hear money for temples there is not forthcoming (meaning, it is not coming in from across various strata of the society and is very insufficient). Maybe there is someway to revive this tradition of keeping money aside for dharma; or the create the personal involvement space from everyone.
Aside from all this, vv-ji, please i request you to clarify
a) what is the surrender to the 'manana' of the shruthi that you mentioned in your earlier post, how is it done.
b) what is the metaphor in practice as regards brahmavarta.
c) without upanayanam since it possible to gain mantradrishti (like mahavtar babaji and other sanyasis), what would be the vedic stand on this.
d) shruthi and the smriti as final constitution:- is it an undefiable law ? What are the consequences of not following it as regards the concept that moksha can be sought by anyone?
e) how different is the 'vedic" way different from the "tantra" way? from what i have come across, the tantra way is not opposed to the vedic way, it just says all those 'ritual samskaras' are not necessary; hence the provision for that is not made. But if one does wish to follow it, there is no stopping him.
Regards.
Dear gopu ji,
Our religion teaches that all other major religions are as valid as our own path. We have no quarrels with other religions as long as they do not interfere with our own practice of our religion.
Unfortunately, today, we have a couple of minority religions in India, some of whose members are being influenced by forces outside India who do not have the best interests of India at heart. Hence we are in the middle of the the conversion issue and the Jihadi issue.
To make it worse, the party in power unfortunately is using these very religious groups for vote bank politics, while at the same time trying to divide the Hindus with the same type of politics.
Because of all this, and the problem with the mainstream media in general in not being fair and balanced towards the interests of the majority in a so called 'secular' country, we as Hindus feel that we are under attack, and justifiably so.
But the answer is not to become more militant like the members of the other religions do. If we do, then we will lose the great heritage of our religion which always taught us tolerance. Let us not hate other religions but let us fight the forces that interfere with our religion.
In this spirit, Carnatic music, with it's rich tradition of being used to worship God, should be used by anyone, regardless of the religion. Ours is a universal religion and I do not see any harm in others using our ragas to a good purpose. Do you know that the songs in most of the Indian movies borrow from our classical ragas?
Let us not be quick to condemn other fellow Hindus. I see in some people to define Hinduism on their own terms and condemn the teachings of the likes of Swami Vivekananda and the Mahatma. Hinduism encompasses a very big swath of all different philosophies. Even what the Abrahamic religions purport to teach, we have in Hinduism!
Please, let us not confuse Sanatana Dharma with these practices of religious censorship that these other religions follow. Ours is a grand civilizational religion and we do not stoop to such primitive levels.
Regards,
KRS
Our religion teaches that all other major religions are as valid as our own path. We have no quarrels with other religions as long as they do not interfere with our own practice of our religion.
Unfortunately, today, we have a couple of minority religions in India, some of whose members are being influenced by forces outside India who do not have the best interests of India at heart. Hence we are in the middle of the the conversion issue and the Jihadi issue.
To make it worse, the party in power unfortunately is using these very religious groups for vote bank politics, while at the same time trying to divide the Hindus with the same type of politics.
Because of all this, and the problem with the mainstream media in general in not being fair and balanced towards the interests of the majority in a so called 'secular' country, we as Hindus feel that we are under attack, and justifiably so.
But the answer is not to become more militant like the members of the other religions do. If we do, then we will lose the great heritage of our religion which always taught us tolerance. Let us not hate other religions but let us fight the forces that interfere with our religion.
In this spirit, Carnatic music, with it's rich tradition of being used to worship God, should be used by anyone, regardless of the religion. Ours is a universal religion and I do not see any harm in others using our ragas to a good purpose. Do you know that the songs in most of the Indian movies borrow from our classical ragas?
Let us not be quick to condemn other fellow Hindus. I see in some people to define Hinduism on their own terms and condemn the teachings of the likes of Swami Vivekananda and the Mahatma. Hinduism encompasses a very big swath of all different philosophies. Even what the Abrahamic religions purport to teach, we have in Hinduism!
Please, let us not confuse Sanatana Dharma with these practices of religious censorship that these other religions follow. Ours is a grand civilizational religion and we do not stoop to such primitive levels.
Regards,
KRS
Last edited:
Dear Sri Seshadri Subramanim Ji,
There are various stages of the state of being clothed, from nudity to a full 'burkha' for a woman. What do you think is appropriate for a Hindu woman? Are skirts that flow in to the ankles okay? Are not wearing any blouses that till recently our Kerala sisters did and our own ancients did okay today? It used to be in my boyhood that wearing a 'ravik' (blouse without covering from the top of the arms) was scandelous. Did this practice violate our standard of modesty?
How come in every religion, the men seem to define the standards for what a woman should wear? Your allusion to the Bhagavan's act perfectly illustrates this (by the way, what He did has a spiritual connotation, not anything vulgar).
So, please let me know the name of this person in our religion who is in charge of judging what is modest in terms of a woman's clothing. I am sure he has the exact details of a blouse's allowed measurements as well as any other details about a Hindu woman's other clothing.
Regards,
KRS
There are various stages of the state of being clothed, from nudity to a full 'burkha' for a woman. What do you think is appropriate for a Hindu woman? Are skirts that flow in to the ankles okay? Are not wearing any blouses that till recently our Kerala sisters did and our own ancients did okay today? It used to be in my boyhood that wearing a 'ravik' (blouse without covering from the top of the arms) was scandelous. Did this practice violate our standard of modesty?
How come in every religion, the men seem to define the standards for what a woman should wear? Your allusion to the Bhagavan's act perfectly illustrates this (by the way, what He did has a spiritual connotation, not anything vulgar).
So, please let me know the name of this person in our religion who is in charge of judging what is modest in terms of a woman's clothing. I am sure he has the exact details of a blouse's allowed measurements as well as any other details about a Hindu woman's other clothing.
Regards,
KRS
Vv-ji,
Again, I dunno if my post above sounded desperately impatient...am sorry if i have sounded anything negative.
My trouble is that am not able to get answers from anywhere else on this and am therefore depending on you. Neither did i get any answers from google, nor do i know from where i can get answers (about the vedic side of such things) from anywhere else. Thence, my ardent hopes on you that you wud answer. Did not mean to sound anything negative at all.
Regards.
Again, I dunno if my post above sounded desperately impatient...am sorry if i have sounded anything negative.
My trouble is that am not able to get answers from anywhere else on this and am therefore depending on you. Neither did i get any answers from google, nor do i know from where i can get answers (about the vedic side of such things) from anywhere else. Thence, my ardent hopes on you that you wud answer. Did not mean to sound anything negative at all.
Regards.
KRS-ji,
Reg the involvement of Gasperraj: if anyone else had been involved, i don't think i wud hv felt the same...not meaning to sound offensive to any Christian.
Reg the involvement of Gasperraj: if anyone else had been involved, i don't think i wud hv felt the same...not meaning to sound offensive to any Christian.
Dear KRS ji,
It is quite amusing to read your barrage of questions aimed at a sentence in my earlier post.
I believe that it is pointless and a waste of energy to conduct a discussion if one does not grasp the intent of a post; however, perceptions differ and I would be glad to clarify my post and its intent.
Before that,
Pray tell me kindly about your inference to my sentence - "Can one say that because Lord Krishna took away the clothes of the gopis and asked them to come before him as such, the act is justified even if we do it?"
Thanks,
Seshadri
It is quite amusing to read your barrage of questions aimed at a sentence in my earlier post.
I believe that it is pointless and a waste of energy to conduct a discussion if one does not grasp the intent of a post; however, perceptions differ and I would be glad to clarify my post and its intent.
Before that,
Pray tell me kindly about your inference to my sentence - "Can one say that because Lord Krishna took away the clothes of the gopis and asked them to come before him as such, the act is justified even if we do it?"
Thanks,
Seshadri
My intent was not about modesty in dressing or about dress code for women in different religions. Your inference to the above from my post is stray and completely off the mark.
The act of Radha and Gopis coming out nude from the water can be viewed in different ways:
The real spiritualists need no show and neither do they need to prove their spirituality… Normally when a person attains the level where he does not see any discrimination in beings, it would be felt by those around him and also by his lifestyle. Commercial artists generally perform for one or more of the following:
I think you may well have drawn some atrocious conclusions from my post, and have asked questions as if your interpretation is unquestionable.
Please read the example with reference to the subject being discussed!
Regards,
Seshadri
The act of Radha and Gopis coming out nude from the water can be viewed in different ways:
- People who are Bhakthi oriented would see this as a complete act of surrender before the Supreme
- Those who look beyond the obvious (the thinkers) may allude this as a symbolic reference that innocence (i.e., shedding all inhibitions of the mind and the body) is the way to realize the Supreme
- Those whose mind is predominantly preoccupied by Sringara Rasa may infer this as a game between loved ones
The real spiritualists need no show and neither do they need to prove their spirituality… Normally when a person attains the level where he does not see any discrimination in beings, it would be felt by those around him and also by his lifestyle. Commercial artists generally perform for one or more of the following:
- Fame/Societal Status
- Wealth
- Devotion/Spiritual Gratification
I think you may well have drawn some atrocious conclusions from my post, and have asked questions as if your interpretation is unquestionable.
Please read the example with reference to the subject being discussed!
Regards,
Seshadri
hmm....going back to the main topic - who is a brahmin: Shiva is brahmin, Krishna is brahmin, Rama is brahmin...all epitomize that brahman..i think everyone is a brahmin..plants are brahmin, oceans are brahmin, animals are brahmin, space is brahmin, planets are brahmin, sun is brahmin, all are part of that brahman, so all are brahmin..
have so many questions to ask, but dunno where and whom to approach.
i hope vv-ji will reply.
i hope vv-ji will reply.
Dear Sri Seshadri Subramaniam Ji,
My intent was never to hurt your feelings. I am sorry I did not see this posting earlier; I was pre occupied with mudane work.
My intent was not to attack your ideas; it is rather to pose certain questions.
You stated: Though this topic about the artists does not pertain to the query of "who is a brahmin', it is pertinent that as a group one has to observe certain norms. Can one say that because Lord Krishna took away the clothes of the gopis and asked them to come before him as such, the act is justified even if we do it?
So, you were talking about artistic norms. In this context you talked about what is acceptable. My question to you was, who sets these norms? You have cited an extreme example of nudity here. But what about norms in between? Who decides? On whose sensibilities?
Problems with censorship is that it places onus on the supply side - never on the demand side. If one does not approve of a naked art, please do not look at it. But please do not rob the rest of the population, who may have the sensibility to appreciate it as an art and not look at it as anything vulgar.
This is what I was trying to convey. Please let me know where and how I have hurt your feelings, so that I won't repeat my mistake.
Regards,
KRS
My intent was never to hurt your feelings. I am sorry I did not see this posting earlier; I was pre occupied with mudane work.
My intent was not to attack your ideas; it is rather to pose certain questions.
You stated: Though this topic about the artists does not pertain to the query of "who is a brahmin', it is pertinent that as a group one has to observe certain norms. Can one say that because Lord Krishna took away the clothes of the gopis and asked them to come before him as such, the act is justified even if we do it?
So, you were talking about artistic norms. In this context you talked about what is acceptable. My question to you was, who sets these norms? You have cited an extreme example of nudity here. But what about norms in between? Who decides? On whose sensibilities?
Problems with censorship is that it places onus on the supply side - never on the demand side. If one does not approve of a naked art, please do not look at it. But please do not rob the rest of the population, who may have the sensibility to appreciate it as an art and not look at it as anything vulgar.
This is what I was trying to convey. Please let me know where and how I have hurt your feelings, so that I won't repeat my mistake.
Regards,
KRS
Thanks Sri KRS ji for your clarifications,
A norm is a characteristic of groups. It is not a law to be followed rigidly; rather the spirit is to be observed. Maybe a law is a norm that is to be observed rigidly…
Do the common majority have the maturity of mind to differentiate between art and vulgarity? It is debatable.
I have no more comments on this.
Regards.
[FONT="]Seshadri[/FONT]
A norm is a characteristic of groups. It is not a law to be followed rigidly; rather the spirit is to be observed. Maybe a law is a norm that is to be observed rigidly…
Do the common majority have the maturity of mind to differentiate between art and vulgarity? It is debatable.
I have no more comments on this.
Regards.
[FONT="]Seshadri[/FONT]
Dear Sri Seshadri Subramaniam,
I think the majority of people know the difference between esoteric art and vulgarity. You do not normally find folks leering at all the near naked figures within our temples. Why? Because they know the difference.
I would argue that because of censorship, vulgarity creeps in. Look at our movies (Tamil in particular), where a normal human activity as kissing is not allowed to be shown. Now, then instead, all the vulgar scenes as a heroine standing in rain wearing flimsy clothes, and songs with vulgar double meanings abound. So what is the 'norm'? I refuse to accept that the artistic culture of Tamil people stoops so low. They do not have a choice, because in the name of upholding our cultural virtues, we promote vulgarity through censorship.
I am posting this for the readership - I know you have spoken your last words on this topic.
Regards,
KRS
I think the majority of people know the difference between esoteric art and vulgarity. You do not normally find folks leering at all the near naked figures within our temples. Why? Because they know the difference.
I would argue that because of censorship, vulgarity creeps in. Look at our movies (Tamil in particular), where a normal human activity as kissing is not allowed to be shown. Now, then instead, all the vulgar scenes as a heroine standing in rain wearing flimsy clothes, and songs with vulgar double meanings abound. So what is the 'norm'? I refuse to accept that the artistic culture of Tamil people stoops so low. They do not have a choice, because in the name of upholding our cultural virtues, we promote vulgarity through censorship.
I am posting this for the readership - I know you have spoken your last words on this topic.
Regards,
KRS
who is a brahmin? .....
to answer this ..... one needs to keep asking oneself the question ... who is the "I" that is asking this question ? .... in short ,, who am I? .... the answer will tell who a brahmin is .
pranams.
Very beautiful answer indeed vv-ji. Thankyou.
Brahmin-Brahmana-Brahman
Reading all these posts here, I would also like to share my thoughts and views but in just a few words to keep it simple.
Brahmin is a person of Brahmana family lineage. Brahmana family is one which has a gothram named after an ancestor who was one with Brahman.
So essentially what is Brahman is let to be realized and not just explained. Either way it is all about a spiritual way of life - Sanatana Dharma. Life for the objective of realizing ones' self and delving deeper into the ocean of spirituality.
Reading all these posts here, I would also like to share my thoughts and views but in just a few words to keep it simple.
Brahmin is a person of Brahmana family lineage. Brahmana family is one which has a gothram named after an ancestor who was one with Brahman.
So essentially what is Brahman is let to be realized and not just explained. Either way it is all about a spiritual way of life - Sanatana Dharma. Life for the objective of realizing ones' self and delving deeper into the ocean of spirituality.
tbs
0
hi all,
Namaskarams........about who is brahman.......we can say....
in Sanskrit....BRAHMANAM JNAYATE ATHAVA JNATHUM ARHATI
SAHA BRAHMANAHA ITI........means ONE WHO KNOWS BRAHMAN
(ULTIMATE REALITY) OR TO KNOW THE BRAHMAN IS CALLED
BRAHMIN.......now nobody really eligible for this..but we follow the
rules of family lineage/caste based for brahmin. this is my
humbly opinion about brahmin.
Regards
tbs
Namaskarams........about who is brahman.......we can say....
in Sanskrit....BRAHMANAM JNAYATE ATHAVA JNATHUM ARHATI
SAHA BRAHMANAHA ITI........means ONE WHO KNOWS BRAHMAN
(ULTIMATE REALITY) OR TO KNOW THE BRAHMAN IS CALLED
BRAHMIN.......now nobody really eligible for this..but we follow the
rules of family lineage/caste based for brahmin. this is my
humbly opinion about brahmin.
Regards
tbs
M
malgova.mango
Guest
sri tbs!
One only need to know, there are many who knew in current times too.
Apart from my GURU - I would say Swami Dayananda Sarawati is a remarkable teacher of our times. He is hailed as "Teacher of Teachers" please try this website www.avgsatsang.org
Regards
One only need to know, there are many who knew in current times too.
Apart from my GURU - I would say Swami Dayananda Sarawati is a remarkable teacher of our times. He is hailed as "Teacher of Teachers" please try this website www.avgsatsang.org
Regards
S
s007bala
Guest
Shri VV
The person who is able to comprehend "Brahman" whether its Saguna or Nirguna,is to be designated as Brahmin.Of course,there is an entire set of procedures,to acheive this.Like how fro Pre-School to Phd level,there is a slow gradation of teachings as well as understanding.
Its my observation,those people who are born as " Brahmin Families " have a better chance of attaining,the Brahman,due to their genetic orientation as well as the spiritual consciouness which evidently gets transferred from the Male Sperm alongwith Female Egg.Science has conclusively proved,that its the Male Sperm,which decides the gender of the human species.
sb
The person who is able to comprehend "Brahman" whether its Saguna or Nirguna,is to be designated as Brahmin.Of course,there is an entire set of procedures,to acheive this.Like how fro Pre-School to Phd level,there is a slow gradation of teachings as well as understanding.
Its my observation,those people who are born as " Brahmin Families " have a better chance of attaining,the Brahman,due to their genetic orientation as well as the spiritual consciouness which evidently gets transferred from the Male Sperm alongwith Female Egg.Science has conclusively proved,that its the Male Sperm,which decides the gender of the human species.
sb
Dear S Bala-ji,
Are you saying that genetic orientation as well as the spiritual consciouness gets transferred from the Male Sperm to the Female Egg? Cud you explain please? What wud "genetic orientation" mean in this context?
Regards.
Are you saying that genetic orientation as well as the spiritual consciouness gets transferred from the Male Sperm to the Female Egg? Cud you explain please? What wud "genetic orientation" mean in this context?
Regards.
Shri VV
The person who is able to comprehend "Brahman" whether its Saguna or Nirguna,is to be designated as Brahmin.Of course,there is an entire set of procedures,to acheive this.Like how fro Pre-School to Phd level,there is a slow gradation of teachings as well as understanding.
Its my observation,those people who are born as " Brahmin Families " have a better chance of attaining,the Brahman,due to their genetic orientation as well as the spiritual consciouness which evidently gets transferred from the Male Sperm alongwith Female Egg.Science has conclusively proved,that its the Male Sperm,which decides the gender of the human species.
sb
sb,
please explain. are you implying something that could be termed as 'racial memory'?
studies have shown, that all people of south india share the same DNA structure. in that context, how does being born into 'Brahmin Families' gives one a better chance of attaining Brahman?
thank you.
S
s007bala
Guest
Genes
Shri HH
While Science has still gray areas to cover with conclusive proofs,our Saints,Sages,Sidhars,Avatars...have given us clues to realise certain truths.What i experiance as Spiritual Science,i am grappling within myself as to how to verbalise it and explain.Untill i am able to reach such a stage within myself,i request you to search and proceed,on a spiritual quest all by yourself,which is the ultimate,of ways.Though of course,a Guru like HH Jayendra Saraswathi or HH Vijayendra Saraswathi or Bhagavan Sathya Sai Baba or Parama Sathguru Ammachi or who so ever you will choose or vice versa,is appropriate,Guru to guide you.
I will still attempt to write,if you want.
sb
Shri HH
While Science has still gray areas to cover with conclusive proofs,our Saints,Sages,Sidhars,Avatars...have given us clues to realise certain truths.What i experiance as Spiritual Science,i am grappling within myself as to how to verbalise it and explain.Untill i am able to reach such a stage within myself,i request you to search and proceed,on a spiritual quest all by yourself,which is the ultimate,of ways.Though of course,a Guru like HH Jayendra Saraswathi or HH Vijayendra Saraswathi or Bhagavan Sathya Sai Baba or Parama Sathguru Ammachi or who so ever you will choose or vice versa,is appropriate,Guru to guide you.
I will still attempt to write,if you want.
sb
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