Who Should Be in the Lokpal? Should It Represent the Whole Society?

[Yamaka]

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Hello ALL:

Please see this video and write your considered view on this very important matter.

Should an anti-graft body like Lokpal have reservation? - Videos - Politics - Politics News - IBNLive

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/213345/quota-in-lokpal-a-political-stunt.html

I am thinking of the views of M/s Rao and Krishnan:

There should be a mechanism of making the 80% of the total population FEEL that their views also matter and they are also the stakeholders in this Lokpal.

What say you?

I know there could be a firestorm brewing on this matter...Let's face it now!

LoL

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear y !
this is a tactics to derail the process of bringing LOKPAL bill. the upper class and lower class politician are skeptical about each other and there will be no solution till this mind setup is removed.

 

[Yamaka]

dear y !
this is a tactics to derail the process of bringing LOKPAL bill. the upper class and lower class politician are skeptical about each other and there will be no solution till this mind setup is removed.

Dear Guru:

Lokpal of some sort will be passed this month, it appears to me, unless the Opposition shuts down the Parliament.

Mrs. Sonia Gandhi has vowed to pass her version of Lokpal Bill this year.

It appears that the multi-Party Standing Commission has recommended for inclusion of SC,ST,BC and MBC in the Composition of the Lokpal High Command.

If all the UPA II like this version of the Lokpal, then it will be done.

Wait & watch.

ps. My position is whether it's Anna's Version, BJP's Version or Sonia Gandhi's Version, nothing will change the Status Quo, as far as Corruption is concerned. Because who's going to enforce it, when everyone is corrupt in some way or the other?

 

[sangom]

Y,

The demand for reservation in Lokpal seems to be in order for me. Without such an express proviso, there is the likelihood of the Lokpal becoming a body of high caste fellows and all cases against the SC/ST, dalits being pursued harshly. That will have the effect of wiping out the benefits so far derived by these people as a result of job reservations.

But the most important point is whether NGOs are in or out?

 

[ramanasukumar]

First of all the concept of reservation is to be reviewed seriously. who should be in reservation instead of who should be in Lokpal?

 

[Yamaka]

First of all the concept of reservation is to be reviewed seriously. who should be in reservation instead of who should be in Lokpal?

I thought the Concept of Reservation has been thoroughly reviewed by India's Supreme Court already.

They have to resolve the issues of "Creamy Layer" in the context of getting placements in colleges and jobs in the Govt.

But the same "Creamy Layer" may be useful in the inclusion in the Lokpal High Command.

Wait & watch.

 

[ramanasukumar]

But what about the implmentation by the Govt. In tamil Nadu the resevation is over and above the percentage prescribed by the Supreme Court. How many days we still continue reservation in the name of caste as the reservation is not reaching to the downtrodden who are really in need. The reservation is strictly followed only for the purpose of catching votes. When we are really secular what is the necessity in telling secular India. Telling India is enough.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

I think the following people should be in the Lokpal: SG, MM, PM, PC, Kursheed, Kabir, Karunanidhi, Kanimozhi, A Raja, and their host of sympathizers. For what? To save continuity! Both the above and the Anna group will be free ever and the Lokpal intact!

 

[Yamaka]

But what about the implmentation by the Govt. In tamil Nadu the resevation is over and above the percentage prescribed by the Supreme Court. How many days we still continue reservation in the name of caste as the reservation is not reaching to the downtrodden who are really in need. The reservation is strictly followed only for the purpose of catching votes. When we are really secular what is the necessity in telling secular India. Telling India is enough.

It appears that about 80% of the population is under SC, ST, BC and MBC who all have an aggregate Reservation of about a max of 70% of all seats.

This tells me that the remaining 30% of the seats are given to 20% of the population.. this is not that bad a deal for the so-called Upper Castes.

Yes, Secular Constitution understood the problems created by the Rigid Caste Hierarchy in the past 5000 years in India...it made some tangible ways to rectify this persistent problem.

How long will this go? Maybe for ever... as long as all the down-trodden are pushed up in par with the Upper Castes!

That's only logical.

Wait & watch.

 

[Nara]

...I am thinking of the views of M/s Rao and Krishnan:

Y, from what I was able to discern, four objections were raised.

#1. Only merit and integrity must be taken into account
We all know there is no litmus test that objectively ranks all possible candidates in the order of merit/integrity. Therefore, subjective judgement has to be an essential element of the selection process. Further, like Hanumantha Rao points out, people of high integrity and intellectual capacity can be found among all cross sections of society. So, it seems to me, a broad guideline to ensure proper representation from all sections of the nation is not antithetical to the notion that people of merit and integrity must be chosen.

#2. Constitutional bodies cannot have reservation
What is constitution but a set of rules we have made ourselves for the purpose of self-governance? Further, even the inerrant words of the Aupureshaya get interpreted in widely differing ways, so, but for SC, nobody can categorically claim reservation in Lokpal is unconstitutional.

In any case, this Lokpal is obviously not mandated in the constitution as it today. It is being set up only now. So, it can be set up through a constitutional amendment or legislation. If it is former, reservation in Lokpal will be automatically constitutional. If it is later, then SC will be final arbiter as to its constitutionality.

#3. Reservation is impractical in a nine member body
It is lame indeed to argue reservation in a small board cannot be implemented as it would result in ridiculous situation of one and half members being Dalit etc. Thennali Raman is supposed to have divided the odd number of elephants among three sons based on what seemed an impossible ratio. I am sure we have pretty bright people in Indian government to work this out very well.

#4. This is a tactic to derail Lokpal
If this is so, so much the better. Please read the sort of Op-Ed by Manu Joseph posted by mskmoorthy -- click here for it. With NGOs and MNCs practically exempt, this Lokpal is a vicious attempt to have the cake and eat it too. For every taker of bribe there is a giver. What we now have is a frenzied mob mentality, sort of like let us go and get these SOBs who have been taking bribes. When sober thoughts return one would find they are worse off with Lokpal than without. The rich and powerful will always find a way, and the ordinary working stiff will find the only easy way to get things done no longer available.

Anyway, if it is a tactic to derail Lokpal, then I say, call the bluff, let them have reservation and you have your Lokpal, a kind of compromise.

Cheers!

 

[vvinjamur]

I really dont think reservations should continue forever, there has to be a way to stop to this. I agree that the so called upper castes (who were economically forward) were ruling by virtue of their legacy, but things have changed quite a bit and it is true that reservation has played a big role in this. The law making authority must be in the hands of able and should not depend on where he is "born". I sometimes wonder what the people who already enjoyed the reservation have done to help to eradicate this so called "downtrodden ness"? who measures it? How fair it is to give a job in government just because a person is from a different caste and discard another person just because he is from an upper caste and after all the so called "caste" is a classification which people (govt) has come up with. If a person born in backward caste is provided a place in Sankara Mutt we can say we have matured as a country. It is high time we rethink about a way for stopping this or "at least" stop increasing the reservations.

 

[sarang]

There should be no reservation for high level posts including legislation/ parliament. Following excerpts from S J Sorabjee, former solicitor general, make an interesting reading. The politicians are keeping the problem alive and boiling by frequently amending the constitution whenever there is a negative judgement.

"The Constitution of India provides for reservation of seats for scheduled castes and scheduled tribes (dalits) in the Lower House of Parliament and in the state legislatures (Article 330 and Article 332 respectively). When the Constitution was enacted in 1950, the reservations were to cease after 10 years. However, having regard to the conditions of scheduled castes and scheduled tribes, the Constitution has been amended from time to time, and the period of 10 years has been extended to 20 years, then to 30 years, then to 40 years and then to 50 years. At present it provides that the reservation will cease after 60 years, i.e., after 2010 (see 79th Amendment Act, 1999 in Article 334).

"The Supreme Court of India ruled that as a general rule reservation should not exceed 50%. The court also held that whilst there can be reservation up to 50% in the case of initial recruitment there should be no reservation in respect of promotions.

"In order to further advance the rights and claims of the dalits there has been a constitutional amendment, viz. 82nd Amendment Act, 2000 which provides for ‘relaxation in qualifying marks in any examination or lowering the standards of evaluation’ for reservation in matters of promotion for dalits.

"In India, dalits are not excluded from such offices and positions. The Indian Constitution provides for ample reservation for them in educational institutions and in public employment [see Article 15(4); Article 16(4)]. There is no country in the world which has such extensive and positive affirmative action provisions as India. Dalits have been appointed as judges of the Supreme Court and the High Court. The President of India, the highest post under the Constitution, is graced by a dalit. Ministers in the central and state cabinets have been and are dalits. The future Chief Justice of India in the year 2004/5 will be a dalit.

508 Soli J. Sorabjee, The official position

 

[vvinjamur]

I agree completely. The purpose of reservation is improve the conditions of certain sections of society but as long as you have them named or classified as "dalit" "sc/st" they will remain socially backward and will be a source for votes and nothing more...

 

[guruvayurappan]

all politician will speak about reservation in all department .but they will prefer education,health care,legal etc. from private concerns /establishments. we are lucky that they are not demanding quota for participating in international sport events.

 

[Yamaka]

Reservation: How long should it continue?

1. It's very good that India's Constitution acknowledges the sufferings of SC,ST & others and it paved a way for a fair SOLUTION thru Reservation in schools and jobs in Govt.

2. Initially, it envisioned that in about 10 years PARITY would be achieved. But, did we achieve it?

3. Supreme Court said the Reservation may not exceed 50%. What will you do if the SC, ST & others constitute 80% of the total population?

What's the logic that 20% of the people in the Upper Castes enjoying 50% of the total seats? Very illogical.

4. The current Reservation gives as much as 30% of the seats to the 20% of the people in the Upper Castes, which sounds very reasonable to me.

5. Therefore, the current practice of Reservation must continue till a PARITY is reached.

How will you measure a Parity?

The Political Parties (NDA or UPA Coalitions) must declare a Dalit as a Prime Minister candidate for the forthcoming National Election, then people must vote for that Coalition and elect this Dalit as the Prime Minister.

This is the true test of Parity, IMO. PM is the Chief Executive of India, as is the Presidency of the US.

Barack Hussein Obama was Nominated by a major political Party, and people finally elected him as the President of the USA.

This is what's expected in India for a Dalit...

Till that time arrives, the Reservation should continue... with a Reform of the Creamy Layer problems.

More later...

 

[sangom]

Reservation: How long should it continue?


How will you measure a Parity?

The Political Parties (NDA or UPA Coalitions) must declare a Dalit as a Prime Minister candidate for the forthcoming National Election, then people must vote for that Coalition and elect this Dalit as the Prime Minister.

This is the true test of Parity, IMO. PM is the Chief Executive of India, as is the Presidency of the US.

Barack Hussein Obama was Nominated by a major political Party, and people finally elected him as the President of the USA.

This is what's expected in India for a Dalit...

Till that time arrives, the Reservation should continue... with a Reform of the Creamy Layer problems.

More later...

Y,

By making one Dalit PM or one Dalit President, we will not achieve any improvement in any parity, nor will that PM be able to do anything worthwhile in 5 years' time because the government is a machinery which will roll at its own will and pace.

What is required, ideally, is eradication of poverty, illiteracy and unemployment in a real, honest way. Even the massive rural employment programme seems to have got degraded to a farce with all the budget allocations being siphoned off to contractors and implementing officials.

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear yamaka !
what is the reaction for a sex scandal in US and in India ! their the head of IMF and GOVT resign when the news is published where as in India we are saying he is not guilty till the charges are proved . what is your opinion on that ?
cheers
guruvayurappan

 

[Yamaka]

dear yamaka !
what is the reaction for a sex scandal in US and in India ! their the head of IMF and GOVT resign when the news is published where as in India we are saying he is not guilty till the charges are proved . what is your opinion on that ?
cheers
guruvayurappan

Dear Guru:

Regarding Dominique S Kahn (DSK): He is known to indulge in sexual harassment. There has been many complaints even in France. I believe that he attacked that poor woman in the Manhattan Hotel. She immediately complained to the Manager and to the Police.

There was a Grand Jury Hearing (this does not happen in India, I suppose) as to what really happened, and the Grand Jury recommended a prosecution by the District Attorney. Thus, he was arrested on Probable Cause of Sexual Misconduct.

He resigned his position as the Chief of IMF. The decisions of the Grand Jury, the action of the Police & Prosecutor and the decision of DSK to resign all are correct up until this point.

What baffles me is, why the District Attorney agreed to drop the case at the end?

He should have taken the case to trial and ask the Jury to render a verdict:

Whether DSK attempted a rape or it was all a consensual sex. DA did not do his duty!

What happens in India on SEX matters is not clear to me...you may have to give me an example..

On political matters, expecting a Central Minister (like PC) to resign on some allegations is NOT proper, IMO.

Cheers.

 

[vvinjamur]

3. Supreme Court said the Reservation may not exceed 50%. What will you do if the SC, ST & others constitute 80% of the total population?

If there SC & ST are 80% of population then where is the need for reservation!!!

What's the logic that 20% of the people in the Upper Castes enjoying 50% of the total seats? Very illogical.

I am surprised!!! 20% of people in upper castes are enjoying 50% of seats????...I have not heard of any reservations for upper castes...THESE ARE OPEN TO ALL...

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear yamaha !
this in response to post#18
i am not talking about mr .PC.hot debate is going on about his role in 2G,GUPTA case ,ramdev arrest etc he is having many enemies inside his party as well as in opposition because of his versatile role..i was talking about sex scandal involving MP and ministers.recently a Gujarath min has to be sacked after a lot of protest in media.
cheers,
guruvayurappan