Why are vaishnavites better off than saivites?

[sankar100]

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When I first noticed this, i did not want to jump to that conclusion right away. But I kept noticing this.

The vishnu temples are richer and have more donations coming in than shiva temples.
If shiva temples do well, then there is almost always another diety there which draws in the crowd.

In a temple where there is vishnu and shiva, you can easily notice where the crowds, gradeur and everything goes.

Even as a community, one group is much better off than the other.

Some of the literature that is famous and well read is mostly sanskrit based (and almost always rooted in vaishnavism).

A large number of shiva temples lie in ruins or are not attended to at all.

I could go on and on.

Why is this?

 

[sangom]

When I first noticed this, i did not want to jump to that conclusion right away. But I kept noticing this.

The vishnu temples are richer and have more donations coming in than shiva temples.
If shiva temples do well, then there is almost always another diety there which draws in the crowd.

In a temple where there is vishnu and shiva, you can easily notice where the crowds, gradeur and everything goes.

Even as a community, one group is much better off than the other.

Some of the literature that is famous and well read is mostly sanskrit based (and almost always rooted in vaishnavism).

A large number of shiva temples lie in ruins or are not attended to at all.

I could go on and on.

Why is this?

Shri Sankar100,

Your post is a real bombshell; you are likely to revive the age-old schismatic enmity (whose embers are still capable of being blown into a raging fire) between Saivites and Vaishnavites within the Brahmin community.

Subject to the above caveat, I also observe that of late there is a concerted move to popularise Vishnu (and more specially, Krishna), Bhagavadgeeta, Bhagavatam (sreemad and not the devi brand)and so on. My own suspicion is that the Iskcon movement must be pouring foreign funds given by Xian sources (clandestinely, of course) for the specific purpose of projecting Krishna as the most popular, most worshipped, most powerful Godhead of Hinduism. Once this brand promotion crosses the critical mass, Hinduism will be more or less a "one-God religion" and it will be easier to lure away people to Christ from Crisna.

This is a topic in which the various sources promoting Krishnaism today have to come out and tell the truth. But I am pretty sure they won't because there are so many Gurujis, Acharyas, and others who have made their lakhs if not crores by simply repeating Bhagavata Saptaahams in this country and abroad.

People seem to be attracted to Krishna and his various amorous adventures right from his very young age, women are more so perhaps. In a way they probably get the same feeling as they would from viewing a cinema today; they have also the indoctrinated conviction that spending time listening to Bhagavatam is a meritorious deed (puNya kaaryam) which will ensure for them admission to heaven after their death.

In this process the erstwhile favourite brands like Ramayanam, Sundarakaandam, Devimahatmyam, etc., seem to have been given a go-by.

 

[subbudu1]

Shri Sankar100,

Your post is a real bombshell; you are likely to revive the age-old schismatic enmity (whose embers are still capable of being blown into a raging fire) between Saivites and Vaishnavites within the Brahmin community.

Subject to the above caveat, I also observe that of late there is a concerted move to popularise Vishnu (and more specially, Krishna), Bhagavadgeeta, Bhagavatam (sreemad and not the devi brand)and so on. My own suspicion is that the Iskcon movement must be pouring foreign funds given by Xian sources (clandestinely, of course) for the specific purpose of projecting Krishna as the most popular, most worshipped, most powerful Godhead of Hinduism. Once this brand promotion crosses the critical mass, Hinduism will be more or less a "one-God religion" and it will be easier to lure away people to Christ from Crisna.

This is a topic in which the various sources promoting Krishnaism today have to come out and tell the truth. But I am pretty sure they won't because there are so many Gurujis, Acharyas, and others who have made their lakhs if not crores by simply repeating Bhagavata Saptaahams in this country and abroad.

People seem to be attracted to Krishna and his various amorous adventures right from his very young age, women are more so perhaps. In a way they probably get the same feeling as they would from viewing a cinema today; they have also the indoctrinated conviction that spending time listening to Bhagavatam is a meritorious deed (puNya kaaryam) which will ensure for them admission to heaven after their death.

In this process the erstwhile favourite brands like Ramayanam, Sundarakaandam, Devimahatmyam, etc., seem to have been given a go-by.

That is a twist I wouldnt agree with. ISKCON is atleast poaching christians in the west. However there is some truth here. Some time back there was a lot of suspicion that some IKSCONites were actually acting as CIA agents in Bengal. It also seems that ISKCON seems to promote the brand name of Mayapur whereas the old land of Navadweep , which was supposed to be the heart of Bengali traditions, lies in a neglected state. In a recent trip to that region I was amazed by the contrast between Mayapur and Nabadweep. The latter which is a boat's journey from Mayapur bears no semblance to its earlier name of "the Kashi of Bengal". While all of Chaitanya's life seems evident in Nabadweep , Mayapur has now started taking credit.

 

[subbudu1]

When I first noticed this, i did not want to jump to that conclusion right away. But I kept noticing this.

The vishnu temples are richer and have more donations coming in than shiva temples.
If shiva temples do well, then there is almost always another diety there which draws in the crowd.

In a temple where there is vishnu and shiva, you can easily notice where the crowds, gradeur and everything goes.

Even as a community, one group is much better off than the other.

Some of the literature that is famous and well read is mostly sanskrit based (and almost always rooted in vaishnavism).

A large number of shiva temples lie in ruins or are not attended to at all.

I could go on and on.

Why is this?

What is the source of this news. I only think that the Government and the priests who are in control of things are doing nothing. I would assume that there are far many more saivaite shines in TN. Luckily in lands above the Vindhyas such obsession and differentiation between saivism and vaishnavism is less common.

 

[kriskrishnan]

The Shiva deity's 'linga' form offers little imagination to decorate (alangaaram) , whereas the Vaishna deities can be decorated in numerous ways. Shiva is the Lord of destruction, which is inevitable and is it a reason for being less popular?

 

[Govinda]

You started hijacking Vishnu's 'ShuklAm bharadharam' for eulogising Ganesh and made him popular with the Tilak's patriotic movement. just kidding
Bal Gangadhar Tilak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We have only 108 divyadesham easier to maintain, but a recent happening due to NRI vaishnavas realizing the value of our scriptures. There are 1000's of siva/amman temples, some are very famous, many of them not famous that are built and supported by the locals. I guess, with Kanchi Mutt's problem, saivites don't have a common organization to monitor. But still saivism flourishing under the hood of advaita, even most iyengars follow advaitic understanding/philosophy.

One has to do vaidika karma/gayathri/achamanam/ chanting vedas beginning with hari om, acyuta/ananta/govinda etc. So, why you may feel vishnu is worshipped most, whereas, there are more temples shiva/ganesha etc. are worshipped. BrahmOtsavam is the famous celebration of 10 days, Brahma arranged for such festivity to honor Vishnu, which attracts many devotees.

For that matter, recently, saibaba, nowhere in the vedic texts, is popular.

 

[sarang]

Simple question, but difficult to answer. It is more likely that the answer is also wrong.

Baranidaran in his 5 volume set of Tamilnadu temples, says that every village/ town has a siva temple and a vishnu temple; in some villages siva temple is well cared for and in some others vishnu temples are well maintained. Locals and support from emigrated locals, sometimes 'return of some to the roots' make a big impact on the renovation and maintenance of the temple.
The navathirupathi temples were in a bad shape twenty years ago, they became visitable only after Sri venu srinivasan of tvs helped with funds to renovate the temple and build accommodation for the priests. If the tamilnadu government spends a significant portion of the revenue collected on the renovation and upkeep of weak temples, more temples will benefit.
Vaishnavite Tirupathy and srirangam are popular and rich, so are shivite madurai and kanchipuram.
In today's organised temple tourism, it is also important for a temple to be in the tourist circuit.
Perhaps if we make a list of shivite and vashnavite temples and their perceived popularity and richness, we can analyse in detail.
Regarding other issues - literature in samskrit/tamil, and 'better off', it is for the community to put in more effort in supporting the cause. Both sects have extensive religious and secular literature; both groups have rich, successful and tradition respecting individuals and families. Both communities are vibrant despite imposed obstacles from the authority and same side goals of forgettable intellectuals.

When I first noticed this, i did not want to jump to that conclusion right away. But I kept noticing this.

The vishnu temples are richer and have more donations coming in than shiva temples.
If shiva temples do well, then there is almost always another diety there which draws in the crowd.

In a temple where there is vishnu and shiva, you can easily notice where the crowds, gradeur and everything goes.

Even as a community, one group is much better off than the other.

Some of the literature that is famous and well read is mostly sanskrit based (and almost always rooted in vaishnavism).

A large number of shiva temples lie in ruins or are not attended to at all.

I could go on and on.

Why is this?

 

[sankar100]

Simple question, but difficult to answer. It is more likely that the answer is also wrong.

Baranidaran in his 5 volume set of Tamilnadu temples, says that every village/ town has a siva temple and a vishnu temple; in some villages siva temple is well cared for and in some others vishnu temples are well maintained. Locals and support from emigrated locals, sometimes 'return of some to the roots' make a big impact on the renovation and maintenance of the temple.
The navathirupathi temples were in a bad shape twenty years ago, they became visitable only after Sri venu srinivasan of tvs helped with funds to renovate the temple and build accommodation for the priests. If the tamilnadu government spends a significant portion of the revenue collected on the renovation and upkeep of weak temples, more temples will benefit.
Vaishnavite Tirupathy and srirangam are popular and rich, so are shivite madurai and kanchipuram.
In today's organised temple tourism, it is also important for a temple to be in the tourist circuit.
Perhaps if we make a list of shivite and vashnavite temples and their perceived popularity and richness, we can analyse in detail.
Regarding other issues - literature in samskrit/tamil, and 'better off', it is for the community to put in more effort in supporting the cause. Both sects have extensive religious and secular literature; both groups have rich, successful and tradition respecting individuals and families. Both communities are vibrant despite imposed obstacles from the authority and same side goals of forgettable intellectuals.

1. Can you show me links / information about that 5 volume work? I would like to know more.

2. What actually happens to the money that is collected from the temples by the govt? I heard that this money is not returning to the temples but is going to subsiding hajj and bethlam pilgrims. Why is this happening? Why aren't we doing anything?

3. I am seeing a lot of persecution against hindus (the temples, the finances, the culture, the people etc) in so many ways. It is absolutely sick to watch.

 

[sarang]

Thiruthala Perumai - Branidaran 4 volumes; Published by Kalaignan Pathippagam, 10, Kannadasan sali, T nagar, chennai
Kerala aalayangal - Barnidaran; same publisher.\

HR & CE Dept., Govt. of Tamil NaduThis website of Hindu religious and charitable endowment department will give some details of temples under government control.

Please see that this thread is not mischievously converted into shiva-vaishnava conflict.

Let us work, at least wish for proper restoration and self sustaining environ for all temples, with all rituals and festivals in full splendour.

1. Can you show me links / information about that 5 volume work? I would like to know more.

2. What actually happens to the money that is collected from the temples by the govt? I heard that this money is not returning to the temples but is going to subsiding hajj and bethlam pilgrims. Why is this happening? Why aren't we doing anything?

3. I am seeing a lot of persecution against hindus (the temples, the finances, the culture, the people etc) in so many ways. It is absolutely sick to watch.

 

[itsmesiva]

Vishnu = Aabarana Alankara Piriyan
Shivan = Sudukaattil Urayum Piththan

I think the difference starts from there. Its amazing that Hinduism provides for functionality even in Gods. I am no expert in this matter as may other responders and posters are.

PS: if Shivan is adorned lavishly it might look like Rajinikanth playing a paal kaaran and sporting the latest model Nike shoes.

Anbudan,

Siva

 

[sankar100]

Not wanting to turn this into a shiva-vaishnava conflict. The deeper issue that I wanted to address is that...

Some of the funds that are acquired from temples are not sent back to the temples but are used for other religions.

 

[venkashok]

Brahma, Shiva or Vishnu are just one and the same. In Hinduism there is just one God and you can call by any name and give any shape. That is the freedom we have in our religion so that you can choose whichever form and name appeals most to you. Only those who have hardly any understanding of the religion can have concept such as one God is superior to another.

 

[talwan]

Sankar,
Vishnu is Kaakkum Kadavul,Sivan is Azhikkum Kadvul.So people who wanted to be protected pray to Vishnu than Siva.So they offer money,Gold etc to Vishnu temples and so they are more rich or so.
Alwan

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Sankar,
Vishnu is Kaakkum Kadavul,Sivan is Azhikkum Kadvul.So people who wanted to be protected pray to Vishnu than Siva.So they offer money,Gold etc to Vishnu temples and so they are more rich or so.
Alwan

Vishnu is supposed to give better life, luxury and pleasure in actual life. Corruption has its roots here, and if you give more to Vishnu and he would return to you ten times more. And thus it swells. There were uncared for Vishnu temples in many places in Thanjavur districts and around. Whereas people go to Shiva for moksha and your attitude to moksha helps you shed all the pompous. The idea of prasadam in Vishnu temples is to partake and in a Shiva temple you get only vibhoothi. The choice is yours and according to your lights.

 

[rishikesan]

Dear friends,
It is well known that all villages have temples Saivite &Vaishnavite & not to speak of Amman Koils, . Brahmins do pray to their own Kula Deivam ,in their villages, which happen to be Amman Koils only. It is a fact that Vishnu is the Protector of Humanity & no conflict with shiva, who is assigned Destruction of evil. No doubt, Vishu amsam seen in tens of forms in all temples do exhibit enormous Beauty of Vigrahas, which are of small & very big , and obviously, when alankaram is done by deft hands of Archakas, can a human being whoever he may be including theevra saivaites will have very pleasing darsan. Ultimately, all hindus including saivaites, represented by Aadhi SSkara, have vouchsafed that It is only NARAYANA--who can grant Moksha to all when they leave this world.
We are born as Brahmins. Hindu religion is liberal Naam -ellavatraiyum Potruvom

A.Srinvasan

 

[sadasivam.sridharan]

sivaya Vishnu roopaya siva roopaya vishnave.sivasya hrudhayam Vishnu vishnucha hrudhayam sivaha.This is what Yujur Vedam says.

 

[sangom]

sivaya Vishnu roopaya siva roopaya vishnave.sivasya hrudhayam Vishnu vishnucha hrudhayam sivaha.This is what Yujur Vedam says.

Will you kindly give the Chapter & verse details? I feel what you have written is some sloka of a subsequent period.

 

[suraju06]

Not wanting to turn this into a shiva-vaishnava conflict. The deeper issue that I wanted to address is that...

Some of the funds that are acquired from temples are not sent back to the temples but are used for other religions.

Dear Sankar,

In Tamilnadu the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowment Board is a Government Department. The employees working in this department are Govt. Employees. This Department manages all except a few private temples in Tamilnadu. If there is property endowed to the temple it is taken over by this HR&CE Board. The properties are in the form of offerings in the hundis kept in temples, lands donated by devotees, building properties donated by devotees etc. This department like any other Govt. dept. functions in its own world where things move at snails pace. Dog-eared files are pushed back and forth and a pretense of management of properties is played out. Govt being secular the department is also secular and employees are from all religions,even religions which are critical of Hindu religion and throws a net far and wide to catch as many sheep to its fold as possible because they think they have a better shepherd in their God. There are atheists too in these department working as employees who come to manage these temples. There is rampant corruption and political nepotism in the management of endoment properties. Tenents of lands and building never pay their dues regularly. So whatever income is earned by these temples due to the sheer magnitude of the assets is used to pay salaries, DA other allowances etc to the employees and to provide cars to the commissioners of this dept. There may not be any direct use of funds by this department for financing Haj or Bethlehem pilgrimage as you have mentioned. But being a Govt dept all the collections go into the kitty of the Govt. There is no way anything can be done about this because theists are non-violent and do not organize themselves well like the minorities.

Cheers.

 

[sankar100]

Dear Sankar,

In Tamilnadu the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowment Board is a Government Department. The employees working in this department are Govt. Employees. This Department manages all except a few private temples in Tamilnadu. If there is property endowed to the temple it is taken over by this HR&CE Board. The properties are in the form of offerings in the hundis kept in temples, lands donated by devotees, building properties donated by devotees etc. This department like any other Govt. dept. functions in its own world where things move at snails pace. Dog-eared files are pushed back and forth and a pretense of management of properties is played out. Govt being secular the department is also secular and employees are from all religions,even religions which are critical of Hindu religion and throws a net far and wide to catch as many sheep to its fold as possible because they think they have a better shepherd in their God. There are atheists too in these department working as employees who come to manage these temples. There is rampant corruption and political nepotism in the management of endoment properties. Tenents of lands and building never pay their dues regularly. So whatever income is earned by these temples due to the sheer magnitude of the assets is used to pay salaries, DA other allowances etc to the employees and to provide cars to the commissioners of this dept. There may not be any direct use of funds by this department for financing Haj or Bethlehem pilgrimage as you have mentioned. But being a Govt dept all the collections go into the kitty of the Govt. There is no way anything can be done about this because theists are non-violent and do not organize themselves well like the minorities.

Cheers.

Don't you think it is about time that changed?
It is best that we start now before it is too late and there is no way we can do anything.

Isn't this kind of apathy and fatalism that is working against us?

There comes a time, when we need to take a strong stance and some serious action. We may not be well organized, but that is no reason to stay that way forever and accept that as our fate.

 

[Nara]

Will you kindly give the Chapter & verse details? I feel what you have written is some sloka of a subsequent period.

I was surprised too that this is from Yajur veda. Will the poster respond?

 

[sangom]

Don't you think it is about time that changed?
It is best that we start now before it is too late and there is no way we can do anything.

Isn't this kind of apathy and fatalism that is working against us?

There comes a time, when we need to take a strong stance and some serious action. We may not be well organized, but that is no reason to stay that way forever and accept that as our fate.

Shri Sankar,

I have tried to give some background about how the Hindu Temples went under state control, even when we had no Kazhagam, no Communism, no Democracy etc. Pl.see this post.

In view of hundreds of years of experience about Temple managements being generally very corrupt, greedy and power-hungry, at least now we all can pose as if the Govt. Dept is inefficient and corrupt, thereby feeling a sense of satisfaction that we the complainants are made of nobler stuff. Your post also appears to stem from such feelings.

But if, by a miracle, the Temples are given back to the devotees, just imagine about whom we will complain and to whom? The net result may be innumerable court cases, stay orders etc., and the corruption continuing merrily. It is bas(e)ic human nature to lick one's finger once it is inserted in the jar of honey, is it not?

Even TTD which is a Government supervised Board of Trustees is not free from stains. Recently, it was flashed in the media that some epigraphic evidence revealed that Krishnadeva Raya, the Vijayanagar king, had donated stone-studded gold ornaments like chains, "arai-paTTai" (belt), etc., of which there is no record in the Devasthanam records, nor the actual ornaments; no one knows anything about these. The executive officer of TTD when interviewed by media when the news was hot and fresh did a great "mazhuppu" circus saying that the gold might have been melted along with other gold deposited by devotees Offerings by the then ruling emperor treated so casually? Can we believe that explanation?

 

[happyhindu]

Even TTD which is a Government supervised Board of Trustees is not free from stains. Recently, it was flashed in the media that some epigraphic evidence revealed that Krishnadeva Raya, the Vijayanagar king, had donated stone-studded gold ornaments like chains, "arai-paTTai" (belt), etc., of which there is no record in the Devasthanam records, nor the actual ornaments; no one knows anything about these. The executive officer of TTD when interviewed by media when the news was hot and fresh did a great "mazhuppu" circus saying that the gold might have been melted along with other gold deposited by devotees Offerings by the then ruling emperor treated so casually? Can we believe that explanation?

Before TTD was formed, the temple was under the administration of the British colonial government; with one mutt overseeing / taking care of religious requirements. Maybe some ornaments went missing during that time. But the TTD officer giving such a dubious answer is suspicious - maybe he is trying to cover up :juggle:

 

[venkashok]

Useless topics and meaningless arguments

This is a hopeless website. I quit

 

[suraju06]

Don't you think it is about time that changed?
It is best that we start now before it is too late and there is no way we can do anything.

Isn't this kind of apathy and fatalism that is working against us?

There comes a time, when we need to take a strong stance and some serious action. We may not be well organized, but that is no reason to stay that way forever and accept that as our fate.

Dear Sankar,

We have ways of working with the Govt of the day. When you can not get things changed your way we manage the situation in such a way that we achieve our goal working with the existing system instead of coming into a conflict with the system. I can give you an example of what we are doing in our village. We, the members who hail from that village have formed a Bhaktha Sabha with a set of byelaws and are doing everything we want to the temple. We have constructed a community centre also so that the people of the village (there is not a single brahmin family living in that village) need not go to nearby town to celebrate marriages. But for everything we do we take the written permission of HR&CE Board Commissioner. If the commissioner drags his feet we take it up at higher levels in the secretariat at Chennai. The assets created are in the custody and control of the sabha. We never hand them over to HR&CE Board. The sabha is governed by the byelaws and the control is in the hands of office holders who are elected once in 5 years. If you are keen about replecating this model you can try this.

Cheers.

 

[sadasivam.sridharan]

Will you kindly give the Chapter & verse details? I feel what you have written is some sloka of a subsequent period.

This verse appears in Yajurveda sandhayavandhanam.That's the reason why it was posted to be from Yajurveda.If it is not so, I may Pl.be corrected and informed about the correct source.