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why do we need religion in our lives

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Among Brahmins, religion is a nostalgic pastime and a means to allows them to socialize with more devout Indian communities, who are almost always non-Brahmin. As a US raised Indian, religion serves a far more practical role, in defining and shaping values for living a meaningful life. Do we need religion to live a life of value; most Brahmins do not have faith to understand.

the idea of God as a source of moral accountability is a Western understanding of religion, and that is why most people in America are religious to some extent or the other.
 
Regarding the OP:

Before talking about need for religion in our lives one has to know what religion is. Today's practitioners of a given religion know what rules they are governed by their religious edicts.

Rarely do they ask the need for a religion or what a religion is supposed to be. A good summary is in a book by Christopher Isherwood with the title "What religion is" based on select talks of Sri Vivekananda.

One may not agree with all the views of Sri Vivekananda but the topic area of 'what religion is' is covered with a broad spectrum of viewpoints in this book.


The reason many do not question 'what religion is' is because most human beings are indoctrinated in the religion they are raised in from a very young age. They may not follow the edicts religiously but their core beliefs remain with them until their death. Unless they are converted which has to include violence of some form since the one converted has to be told that all their forefathers are wrong and doomed.

There seem to be a predilection in ALL the religions of the world to portray God to be someone who talks to an intermediary, usually in their dreams. Such a person then works hard to have a huge followership as the chosen person by God. The followers over time then deify the person and make him/her synonymous with God himself.

One cannot assess the merits of a religious tradition by the number of followers it has. For the thinking population (and it does not include atheists who follow another belief system) it can be shown why they are all deluded in their beliefs.

Once a person is deified, it becomes inappropriate, insensitive and inconsiderate to talk about this person or the delusional practices. Besides any critique of such a person/leader/tradition can only invite a 'holy' war.

I find it hard to understand why the creator, if there is one, would make such an intelligent universe and then say 'oops, I forgot to teach these human idiots how to live, so let me pick my special messenger and tell them as to how I want these humans to act. In order to reach them I will enter the dreams of my chosen person and give my message'. If one views this whole idea from a distance it smacks of silliness.

Well I heard a joke - the person said he had a dream and God came in his dream and told him "I never tell you idiots any of my messages through anyone's dreams"

The reason religions exist and thrive is because it addresses the basic human need of inherent fear and greed. Many address this by feeding to their frenzy of fear ("You must fear this God only") and greed ("I will bestow you what you want, but you must worship me") etc.

In addition human beings want to live forever though they see death all the time. Therefore this God assures that if you follow me you will have a special place at heaven or you will be condemned to hell.

Indian hell and heaven is more reasonable since they are not eternal!

Those that follow religious edicts without ever bothering to understand them are likely to become agnostics, skeptics and atheists. Intellect is hard to get rid of.

Almost all religious people will continue to suffer since their God does not give them what they want and terrible things do happen to self proclaimed good people.

Those that do not care much about anything will also continue to suffer since life is about experiencing pairs of opposites. even ignorance does not turn out to be all that blissful.

There is a way out of this suffering without promise of heaven or hell. There is a final word on this that resolves all apparent contradictions of life. Because of interconnectedness of all the issues of life doubts and suffering will not go away until the resolution is complete.

This happens when Isvara is understood and Isvara Bhakti is understood properly.

No religions of today teach this because they only preach a belief.

There is a beautiful verse in Srimad Bhagavatam.

For religiosity oriented people and those of Bhakti-cults, Srimad Bhagavatam describing Bhagavan's leela is one that evokes emotions, often confused with Bhakti.

However those that want to know Isvara and understand what Ananya Bhakthi, Srimad Bhagavatam is a Vedantic text much like Yoga Vasishta.

भिद्यते हृदयग्रन्थिश्छिद्यन्ते सर्वसंशयाः
क्षीयन्ते चास्य कर्माणि दृष्टएवात्मनीश्वरे



Meaning:

The knot in the heart is pierced, all misunderstanding fully removed , and the chain of karmic actions is once and for all removed, all doubts clarified only when one sees the Supreme Lord everywhere, within all beings without difference.

This is a description of ananya-bhakthi.

In another thread there is another description here:
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=24993&page=2&p=302790#post302790


PS: While my reference above is correct what I actually wanted to provide is this verse from Mundaka Upanishad which is very similar

भिद्यते हृदयग्रन्थिश्छिद्यन्ते सर्वसंशयाः ।
क्षीयन्ते चास्य कर्माणि तस्मिन्दृष्टे परावरे ॥
 
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Shri tks, I almost agree with most of what you say... let go...

:-) to each his own... and it doesnt really matter you know...
 
hi

generally all animals search for food....just food is final satisfaction for animals/birds....but human beings all not like that....

our human beings search more than food...sometimes future/mind are connected with our daily life....so we NEED RELIGION

AND GOD IN OUR LIVES....
 
Shri tks, I almost agree with most of what you say... let go...

:-) to each his own... and it doesnt really matter you know...

I have to hold onto something first before I can let go :-)

Today I had to take a day off, had some free Quadrant 4 time (not important, not urgent) you know. I browse few threads and read posts of some people.
If I write I want to think before I do and engage with anyone serious.

By the way, I was not implying any one religion in my post. There is one messenger in a well known religion who said 'I am the last messenger' . Human beings are funny indeed!

Not sure what part you disagreed, it may be in your next post .. will respond there.
 
we think we know until we see our end...

There can only be an end if there was a beginning :-)
I never had a beginning, you know!

If you mean, death of body/mind - we don't know what happens after. No one we know came back after death. If someone writes about 'after death' experience (and there are few best sellers on this topic) , then it means they never died in the first place based on definition of death.

There is no reason to think they will know.

Having said that, knowledge section of our teaching (which includes Isvara and Bhakthi etc) are subject to understanding with proof. The proof is very different from what we are used to in science :-)

So we dont have to wait until death to know , you know :-)

May I quote a very 'wise person' : "The validity of deep contemplation is often a sincere and meaningful debate..."
 
Dear Sri Sangom - I usually read your posts with interest. You have now shared your theory of Karma a few times at this forum in a few threads.

I have taken your considered views primarily as belief based. Given that no belief is better than another one (provided they do not cause harm to others) I have not commented on them.

Also, I do not want to intrude in your explanations of your views and beliefs.

If your theory is beyond just beliefs and is subject to discussion/debate/logic then I can offer some objections.

If you prefer I can share them over PM or post here or just keep quiet.

Regards

Dear Shri tks,

My statements are from my own thinking and so I do not claim any infallibility. You are welcome to offer your comments and objections. If I have any defence, I shall produce but otherwise, I may just keep silent.

Awaiting to hear, Sir!
 
Shri zebra Sir,

Here again I don't know whether the OP will feel we are going astray. Even so, my views are as follows.

I cannot say whether honesty and hard working are indoctrinated habits; if these are, then possibly we will have to agree that human nature is basically and naturally, to be dishonest and to be lazy. But you may agree that if this were true some unknown fellow in the misty past would not have bothered to invent the wheel or to build a hut, make a fire by rubbing two stone pieces, tend that fire suitably, cook his meat in that fire, and so on. Similarly, my experience has been that young children generally tend to be truthful to the extend of their knowledge (that is why the usual saying "enga appa kutirukkuLLE illai!") and so were our rural people, by and large, till post-Independence 'development' made them all progressive! I therefore feel that the default state of humans is honesty but dishonesty is a cultivated trait.

Regarding hard work, the primitive man could just not have been lazy because he had to spend much time and energy to kill a prey animal. This is true even now if you see the lifestyles of the completely uncivilized (and even naked) Amazon tribes in youtube videos. Our own people, two or three generations ago, had to do great amount of physical hard work in order to earn their livelihood. Of course, there might have been a few lucky people but they were the exceptions rather than the rule.
Therefore, hard working is not an acquired trait, as such. In the present technological era, hard work does not necessarily mean doing physical hard work but complete dedication to one's allotted duties and carrying out those duties without being corrupt.

Regarding karma, nations' fortunes, etc., I shall write another post, sir.

Sri Sangom Sir,

First of all thank you for taking the time and trouble to present your views.

In this post I will respond to your post regarding default state of honesty of a human being. Though the instances mentioned by you are true, there are also equally contradictory instances which do not align exactly with what you have said.

First I would like to start with what I have seen and experienced, and hope think you might have at least heard of it in case you do not have first hand experience.

1. When the young kids of our generation were being admitted to school, the State had taken over the role of administration of education and there was a rule that the children should have completed at least five years before seeking admission. But the school authorities were not insisting upon any birth certificate etc. and would take the declaration of the date of birth of child by the parent as true and valid and record the same as so in their records which later on became immutable birth record of the person till his death.

What I found was (mine included) that the parents gave the date of birth of child which was considered most convenient to them (the parents) and/or to the child. This was an open secret because the children would distribute chocolates to their fellow students and teachers on their actual birthday which was seldom in agreement with the records maintained by the school authorities.

In today's rather strict interpretation of laws and rules it would amount to falsification of records etc. and attract some penal provisions of Law, but back about 50 years people didnt think it would hurt anyone if the date of birth was deliberately and erroneously given to the school authorities to give a head start to their children.

2. We have seen (whether actually watched or seen on the TV) that lions, tigers, leopards etc. walk carelessly and aimlessly when it has no intention to attack herbivorous animals like deer, goat etc. for its prey. But once the aim of the big cats is to catch prey for its food, then it hides itself behind bushes and ambushes its intended prey. Assuming humans are on the higher scale of evolution, I would tend to think that we mostly retain these basic characteristics and this is erased or overwritten by higher values like truth and honesty etc. which is the result of indoctrination.

3. I had said about tiny tots fibbing. In fact, if I remember correctly, I had posted a video link of this when I was engaged with Sri Nara. But I cant readily lay my hand on that now.

I give here below a link to topic of "fibbing" published in "The Independent" which says " Four-year-olds not only deceive, but anticipate others' deception" http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/children--the-development-of-mindreading-fibbing-means-a-child-knows-others-have-minds--and-a-crucial-part-of-the-brain-has-switched-on-says-karen-gold-1474321.html

Taking into account what you have said and what I have gathered from elsewhere, honesty is a learned thing, which humans as a whole race let go when the interests more close to their heart are at stake.
 
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Sri Sangom Sir,

First of all thank you for taking the time and trouble to present your views.

In this post I will respond to your post regarding default state of honesty of a human being. Though the instances mentioned by you are true, there are also equally contradictory instances which do not align exactly with what you have said.

First I would like to start with what I have seen and experienced, and hope think you might have at least heard of it in case you do not have first hand experience.

1. When the young kids of our generation were being admitted to school, the State had taken over the role of administration of education and there was a rule that the children should have completed at least five years before seeking admission. But the school authorities were not insisting upon any birth certificate etc. and would take the declaration of the date of birth of child by the parent as true and valid and record the same as so in their records which later on became immutable birth record of the person till his death.

What I found was (mine included) that the parents gave the date of birth of child which was considered most convenient to them (the parents) and/or to the child. This was an open secret because the children would distribute chocolates to their fellow students and teachers on their actual birthday which was seldom in agreement with the records maintained by the school authorities.

In today's rather strict interpretation of laws and rules it would amount to falsification of records etc. and attract some penal provisions of Law, but back about 50 years people didnt think it would hurt anyone if the date of birth was deliberately and erroneously given to the school authorities to give a head start to their children.

2. We have seen (whether actually watched or seen on the TV) that lions, tigers, leopards etc. walk carelessly and aimlessly when it has no intention to attack herbivorous animals like deer, goat etc. for its prey. But once the aim of the big cats is to catch prey for its food, then it hides itself behind bushes and ambushes its intended prey. Assuming humans are on the higher scale of evolution, I would tend to think that we mostly retain these basic characteristics and this is erased or overwritten by higher values like truth and honesty etc. which is the result of indoctrination.

3. I had said about tiny tots fibbing. In fact, if I remember correctly, I had posted a video link of this when I was engaged with Sri Nara. But I cant readily lay my hand on that now.

I give here below a link to topic of "fibbing" published in "The Independent" which says " Four-year-olds not only deceive, but anticipate others' deception" http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/children--the-development-of-mindreading-fibbing-means-a-child-knows-others-have-minds--and-a-crucial-part-of-the-brain-has-switched-on-says-karen-gold-1474321.html

Taking into account what you have said and what I have gathered from elsewhere, honesty is a learned thing, which humans as a whole race let go when the interests more close to their heart are at stake.

Shri zebra sir,

You have given solid evidence to support your pov. I therefore have to agree with you!

My doubt, as an ignoramus, is how come the levels of corruption are low in progressive countries? If dishonesty and laziness are basic human traits, what factors work in favour of some countries which progress well?
 
Very nice and informative discussion between Shri Zebra sir and Shri Sangom Sir.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India lists some causes for the corruption levels in India (quoted from that wiki page) It may be as simple power corrupts human beings.

"The causes of corruption in India include excessive regulations, complicated taxes and licensing systems, numerous government departments each with opaque bureaucracy and discretionary powers, monopoly by government controlled institutions on certain goods and services delivery, and the lack of transparent laws and processes.[SUP][12][/SUP][SUP][13][/SUP] There are significant variations in level of corruption as well as in state government efforts to reduce corruption across India."



This page gives the lowest and highest( 20) countries in the perceived level of corruption over a period of time (India does not appear in the highest perceived level of corruption).

When we were graduate students in India, we (a group of friends) rebelled against corruption - if we did not get something in a straight forward manner, we did not get it - It worked at least while we were students in the mid 70's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
 
Dear Shri tks,

My statements are from my own thinking and so I do not claim any infallibility. You are welcome to offer your comments and objections. If I have any defence, I shall produce but otherwise, I may just keep silent.

Awaiting to hear, Sir!

Dear Sri Sangom

Since you took time to write your views in detail more than once in the forum, I thought I will offer some comments.

Let me first quote part of your post #73

As the BG says, "karmaṇyevādhikāraste mā phaleṣu kadācana". Hence, we all do Karmas but their phalas are not within our control. The Karmas and their phalas are like debit and credit entries in an account. When a person dies, there will be some outstanding entries and these represents the karmas left behind by that person. The responding entries for these outstandings (phalas) will have to happen "in future" in the linear time dimension in which we humans live.

The karma is not a notion alone; karmas are, possibly, entities having their own micro- or nano- dimensions, most likely in the scale of the genes. Since the outstanding karmas left behind one person will represent some aspects of the personality and traits of that person while alive, all such karma particles will normally form one kernel; some small parts from one kernel may get added on to another and vice versa. When a new birth occurs, one of these kernels will get attached to the Universal Life Force which would have already started activating that embryo. Together with the kernel, the new physical body is formed and the kernel firmly attached to the Life Force, makes us feel the "aham" feeling. On death (which happens when all the karmas in the kernel have been experienced in the present life) the Life Force gets detached from both the kernel and the body. A new kernel is now formed, and so on.

Hence, there is no jīvātmā as we call. Each new birth comes with its own load of unexpiated karmas, the phalas of which are experienced in the current birth. That was why, possibly, Gaudapadacharya states,_

न निरोधो नचोत्पत्तिर्न बद्धो न च साधकः ।
न मुमुक्षुर्न वै मुक्तः इत्येषा परमार्थता ॥

na nirodho nacotpattirna baddho na ca sādhakaḥ |
na mumukṣurna vai muktaḥ ityeṣā paramārthatā ||

(There is no disappearance, nor origination; no one in bondage, no one who aims at sādhana; no one who is desirous of salvation, no one who is liberated — This is the highest truth.)

Just as one individual's karma load left behind determines what kind of a birth will be necessary in the next entity to be born, the collective character of the karma loads of all the people within a group, country, etc., will also determine the characteristics of the respective group, country, etc., in which the succeeding new entities will have to be born in order to facilitate their experiencing the phalas of the karma loads with which they are born. This is what I call the collective karma.
It seems the main summary of your view/belief is that there need not be a notion of an individual carrying their Karmic balance through ongoing births but collective Karmic balance of entire universe itself creates ongoing birth and death of living entities. There is only a feeling of individuality (I ness) but no one is bound by anything. To assert this you have quoted a verse of Gaudapadacharya and have incorporated something called Universal force. I am not able to know if it has a parallel to any concept in vedanta, hence I am not commenting on this part.


1. Gaudapada's verse refers to Paramarthika reality (absolute reality) while concepts like Karma apply to relative truths (Vyavaharika reality) applicable in a given context (like birth or death etc). As a metaphor, concept of hot and cold is applicable only from a standpoint of a given temperature (like our body or a room etc). At absolute scale the concept of hot and cold do not arise, for example. So a verse that attempts to describe absolute level reality cannot be used to support a theory of relative reality.

2. Karma is considered Jadam (insentient/inanimate) as described in our scriptures. Therefore the description of karma as a sentient entity implies it is a different beast from whatever is described in our scriptures, and so let me call it Karmaa. If so, then Universal force, Karmaa are new entities of a new theory. For a theory to be applicable it has to explain all phenomena and still be useful without creating contradictions.

Dianetics has a theory about rebirth also. Someone I know talked to them many years ago in California and was asked to undergo evaluation to know what his past births were. The fellow had pain in his groin area and the diagnosis was that 4 births earlier he was a rodent and bit the genitals of a dying man who was kind soul. Now this fellow did not know what to do with that information :-)

3. If Karmaa was sentient in this theory and is pervasive across the universe then universal force would have to cancel it at some point. If it has to interact with it in a cooperating manner for births and deaths, then a higher level unifying and supervising force is needed for Karmaa and Universal force to cooperatively interact. In addition many of Sri Ramanuja's untenables against Advita/avidya will apply here also and there will not be a way out of those objections.


I will stop here. My intent is to not criticize new views but to convey that the teachings of our scriptures have gone through extensive evaluation over centuries and they hang together totally and completely.

I will write another post elaborating what I mean.

Thanks for being open for comments.
 
Follow on to Post #87

The teaching conveyed in our scriptures have gone through extensive evaluation over centuries and they hang together totally and completely. They include words mostly subtle that do not have a parallel in our lives such as Avidya, Karma, Dharma, Punya, Papa, Brahman, Maya etc

These words have very precise meanings and are used to teach & point to truth that cannot be expressed in words.

Interestingly any of the words if fully understood will serve as a pointer towards the total truth.

If we take Avidya - ignorance for example, the question that arise naturally would be: why should I have Avidya, and who has Avidya for starters.
There are schools of thoughts that reject this altogether without fully understanding what is implied by the term.

We seem to find that we have a body/mind (sense, emotion, thought, intellect) etc. All these are like instruments and cannot have ignorance. Besides they were 'created' by Isvara (supposedly the all knowing entity and representing all truths). It cannot be Atma which cannot be ignorant if Tatvam Asi is true. Again schools of thoughts that convoluted this MahaVakya exist but they fail in explaining other areas.

So even a simple item like Avidya cannot be understood easily.

Let us take the word Karma which was basis of discussion in post #87.
This again is an often used term but not understood at all. Karma and Akarma are very involved topics, and understanding them correctly will tantamount to getting one step towards self realization.

This is not my view but the view expressed by Sri Krishna and expanded further by Sri Sanakara in his commentary. The verse occurs in Chapter 4.
It says even poets (and Sri Sankara says including Medhavis) are confused and deluded by the term as to 'what is action' and 'what is actionlessness'. Akarma cannot be about performing no action. If one can understand such terms fully , that itself is equated to direction for liberation from Samsara.


किंकर्मकिमकर्मेतिकवयोऽप्यत्रमोहिताः।
तत्तेकर्मप्रवक्ष्यामियज्ज्ञात्वामोक्ष्यसेऽशुभात्॥४-



The point I wanted to convey is that terms used in our scriptures have to be fully understood in order to use them effectively. Understanding any one of the terms fully leads to the same truth and in that instance all doubts disappear. Until the full understanding is achieved, doubts will always remain which is the idea conveyed by that verse from Srimad Bhagavatam and Mundaka Upanishad provided in post #77

When the doubts disappear, they all do at the same time. This is like a person dreaming and finding himself in a jungle. There are multiple animals looking at him to attack and it is raining with lightning. He is afraid of dying by a falling tree or the lightning or any of the beasts. Just then a tiger jumps on the person and he wakes up. As soon as he wakes up from this dream all items of his dream like the tiger, tree, lightning, rain etc all disappear at once.

Therefore attempts to understand any of the concepts fully will lead towards the ultimate truth.
 
Shri tks, if I may interpose,

1. Gaudapada's verse refers to Paramarthika reality (absolute reality) while concepts like Karma apply to relative truths (Vyavaharika reality) applicable in a given context (like birth or death etc). As a metaphor, concept of hot and cold is applicable only from a standpoint of a given temperature (like our body or a room etc). At absolute scale the concept of hot and cold do not arise, for example. So a verse that attempts to describe absolute level reality cannot be used to support a theory of relative reality.
I remember a debate, probably a year or more in the passing, with Shri Sravna, who had voiced a theory stating absolute and relative reality. Your para above seems to strike the same chord.

It is my observation that these different levels of reality all serve to do a single purpose - of theoretically lending themselves to be used in metaphors and similes. It is but an interesting point to worry about, this absoluteness, if it should indeed have existed before, it exists no more now. It is the apparent reality.

Though you had used a metaphor, I am afraid, that by itself may very well be the entire holy truth ! :-)
 
Shri tks, if I may interpose,

I remember a debate, probably a year or more in the passing, with Shri Sravna, who had voiced a theory stating absolute and relative reality. Your para above seems to strike the same chord.

It is my observation that these different levels of reality all serve to do a single purpose - of theoretically lending themselves to be used in metaphors and similes. It is but an interesting point to worry about, this absoluteness, if it should indeed have existed before, it exists no more now. It is the apparent reality.

Though you had used a metaphor, I am afraid, that by itself may very well be the entire holy truth ! :-)

Sri auh - you may interpose :-)

Words like absolute and relative can be used in many contexts.

Here I was talking specifically about two words Paramarthika and vyavaharika which have very specific meanings. There is one more word describing yet another 'reality' for completeness that I did not bring up here since it is not relevant for the point I was making.

One can only talk about existence of anything *only* if the meaning of the entity is understood.

Yes, absolute temperature as a limit do exist and used in scientific calculations. Yes, we can sum certain infinite series*fully* in the limit even if we cannot enumerate the infinite items. Some of the mathematical physics include working and manipulating with infinite dimensional space to actually calculate measurable items. Square root of -1 may not be imaginable by mind but do play a vital role in high school mathematics and its applications to physical problems.

Perhaps you have a notion about absolute reality which you may say does not exist 'now'. Use of the word now means you have a different notion since absolute reality is time independent and space independent. Since I do not know your notion I have to agree with you that it probably does not exist :-)
 
Dear Sri Sangom

Since you took time to write your views in detail more than once in the forum, I thought I will offer some comments.

Let me first quote part of your post #73

It seems the main summary of your view/belief is that there need not be a notion of an individual carrying their Karmic balance through ongoing births but collective Karmic balance of entire universe itself creates ongoing birth and death of living entities. There is only a feeling of individuality (I ness) but no one is bound by anything. To assert this you have quoted a verse of Gaudapadacharya and have incorporated something called Universal force. I am not able to know if it has a parallel to any concept in vedanta, hence I am not commenting on this part.


1. Gaudapada's verse refers to Paramarthika reality (absolute reality) while concepts like Karma apply to relative truths (Vyavaharika reality) applicable in a given context (like birth or death etc). As a metaphor, concept of hot and cold is applicable only from a standpoint of a given temperature (like our body or a room etc). At absolute scale the concept of hot and cold do not arise, for example. So a verse that attempts to describe absolute level reality cannot be used to support a theory of relative reality.

Dear Shri tks Sir,

Thank you very much for your views, which are, as always, very learned and instructive. I think not only I but also the other readers will benefit from these discussions.

My own stand in matters like pāramārthikā reality, vyāvahārikā reality, etc., is that even our great ācāryas were hemmed in by the so called 'past baggage', meaning whatever was told in the upanishads - mainly, as also the earlier scriptures like the vedas, brahmanas, Aranyakas, etc.

Regarding pāramārthikā, vyāvahārikā, etc., will it not be correct to say that even those great ācāryas of the past would most probably not have had direct experience of the pāramārthikā variety and that the best they could have offered to us is their own imaginations or theories, if you so prefer, about what would be the picture, as viewed from the pāramārthikā level. For example, these passages from the taittirīyopaniṣat are supposed to represent the exclamations of a jīvātmā which has transcended all the koshas:

hā ))) vu hā))) vu hā))) vu | ahamannamahamannamahamannam | ahamannādoऽ hamannādoऽ hamannādaḥ | ahagm̐ ślokakṛdahagm̐ ślokakṛdahagm̐ ślokakṛt | ahamasmiprathamajā ṛtā)))sya |... ahamannamannamadantama)))dmi |ahaṃ viśvaṃ bhuvanabhyabhavām |

But, even here, the sense of aham is found to be intact!


In my proposal the Life Force will take the place of this pāramārthikā reality and our own experienced world/universe will, no doubt, represent the vyāvahārikā.

2. Karma is considered Jadam (insentient/inanimate) as described in our scriptures. Therefore the description of karma as a sentient entity implies it is a different beast from whatever is described in our scriptures, and so let me call it Karmaa. If so, then Universal force, Karmaa are new entities of a new theory. For a theory to be applicable it has to explain all phenomena and still be useful without creating contradictions.

The above dichotomy (about karma as a sentient entity and the Life Force which I refer to) is, I think, no more contradictory or erroneous than the problem created by Shankara's Brahman and avidyā concepts. Because, as you will definitely be knowing, one of the points held against advaita is "what is the origination and what is the locus of avidyā?". I do not know of any logically satisfying answer from the advaitin scholars which safeguards the position of brahman as the one and only reality and, at the same time, clarifies wherefrom avidyā originated, whether it was originally a part of brahman (if yes, then brahman has at least one guna, viz., avidyā;) and if avidyā was not part of brahman what was its source of origination and where was it located before afflicting the jīvātmās, etc.

My proposition does not claim adherence to either advaita or dwaita philosophy, nor does it claim that karma is sentient. Just as poisonous substances (which are insentient in our vyāvahārikā reality) in pond water will adhere to the skin of every bather, and what particles stick to one person's skin will not be able to stick to another bather's skin, etc., it is possible to imagine karma also as consisting of non-sentient particles and attaching to every new birth.

So when our 'past baggage' could lend itself to different and mutually contrarian interpretations like advaita and dwaita, and when advaita itself is unable to explain where the avidyā came from and where it resided — before afflicting the so called jīvātmās — and the inherent contradiction of brahman and avidyā being mutually independent, probably co-eval and both being almost endless, etc., this perceived contradiction of karma as a sentient item and the Life Force could be tolerated.

I do not think we should rigidly adhere to the old requirements as invariable conditions. If we do so, we will be compelled to end up with one or the other options of brahman + avidyā (māyā), sagunabrahman (viśiṣṭādvaita), or sagunabrahman separate from jīvātmā (dwaita) and will be back to square one!

< Clipped >

3. If Karmaa was sentient in this theory and is pervasive across the universe then universal force would have to cancel it at some point. If it has to interact with it in a cooperating manner for births and deaths, then a higher level unifying and supervising force is needed for Karmaa and Universal force to cooperatively interact. In addition many of Sri Ramanuja's untenables against Advita/avidya will apply here also and there will not be a way out of those objections.


I will stop here. My intent is to not criticize new views but to convey that the teachings of our scriptures have gone through extensive evaluation over centuries and they hang together totally and completely.

I will write another post elaborating what I mean.

Thanks for being open for comments.

Once again, let me submit that my proposition does not claim adherence to either advaita or dwaita philosophy, nor does it claim that karma is sentient. Just as poisonous substances (which are insentient in our vyāvahārikā reality) in pond water will adhere to the skin of every bather, and what particles stick to one person's skin will not be able to stick to another bather's skin, etc., it is possible to imagine karma also as consisting of non-sentient particles and attaching to every new birth.

Our scriptures have not gone through any scientific or logical evaluation, though I agree that the theories churned out (mainly three in number) have probably been. Even among these three, it is possibly the first, advaita which has been subjected to much evaluation and the tenet of avidyā (māyā) has come in for much scrutiny and criticism without any logically satisfactory decision. That is why we still see vaishnavam and mādhvaṃ doing well and thriving.

Under these circumstances, I feel it will be a beneficial thing to delink our beliefs from those ancient tenets, and posit a new one which does away with the need for anthropomorphic deities, idolatry, temples which are essentially run on business principles fleecing the common man's gullibility, the tendency to lean on to superstitious customs and practices, and, above all, an overwhelming preoccupation (both time- and energy-wise) to all these unsatisfactory tendencies.
 
Follow on to Post #87

The teaching conveyed in our scriptures have gone through extensive evaluation over centuries and they hang together totally and completely. They include words mostly subtle that do not have a parallel in our lives such as Avidya, Karma, Dharma, Punya, Papa, Brahman, Maya etc

These words have very precise meanings and are used to teach & point to truth that cannot be expressed in words.

Interestingly any of the words if fully understood will serve as a pointer towards the total truth.


Shri tks Sir,

The above seems to me to be the usual "ploy" of many of our religious scholars to confuse ordinary people and pretend as if they are repositories of true wisdom!

If words like avidya, karma, dharma, punya, papa, brahman, maya etc., do not have a parallel in our lives in this three-dimensional world, then why should any ordinary person get interested in any of these, at all? Why do our scriptures, including the various puranas and itihasas which category is supposed to explain the various aspects in a simple manner, use all these words ever so commonly? If these words are such that their precise meanings can be used to teach & point to truth, it should naturally follow that these words have precise meanings; does it not?

If we take Avidya - ignorance for example, the question that arise naturally would be: why should I have Avidya, and who has Avidya for starters.
There are schools of thoughts that reject this altogether without fully understanding what is implied by the term.

We seem to find that we have a body/mind (sense, emotion, thought, intellect) etc. All these are like instruments and cannot have ignorance. Besides they were 'created' by Isvara (supposedly the all knowing entity and representing all truths). It cannot be Atma which cannot be ignorant if Tatvam Asi is true. Again schools of thoughts that convoluted this MahaVakya exist but they fail in explaining other areas.

So even a simple item like Avidya cannot be understood easily.

Firstly, we have no proof that the Isvara (supposedly the all knowing entity and representing all truths) created the body, mind, emotion, thought, intellect, etc., whatever the definition of that Isvara be. But if, according to you, this Isvara is Brahman, then by definition, the Brahman which is defined as nirguna will not be able to create anything. So this creator Isvara has to be some separate centre of power, different from Brahman. Consequently, Brahman loses the position of the one and only reality!

On the other hand if we go by my proposition, it may be seen that the karma sheath covering the Life Force is the equivalent of this avidyaa.


Let us take the word Karma which was basis of discussion in post #87.
This again is an often used term but not understood at all. Karma and Akarma are very involved topics, and understanding them correctly will tantamount to getting one step towards self realization.

This is not my view but the view expressed by Sri Krishna and expanded further by Sri Sanakara in his commentary. The verse occurs in Chapter 4.
It says even poets (and Sri Sankara says including Medhavis) are confused and deluded by the term as to 'what is action' and 'what is actionlessness'. Akarma cannot be about performing no action. If one can understand such terms fully , that itself is equated to direction for liberation from Samsara.
किंकर्मकिमकर्मेतिकवयोऽप्यत्रमोहिताः।
तत्तेकर्मप्रवक्ष्यामियज्ज्ञात्वामोक्ष्यसेऽशुभात्॥४-



The point I wanted to convey is that terms used in our scriptures have to be fully understood in order to use them effectively. Understanding any one of the terms fully leads to the same truth and in that instance all doubts disappear. Until the full understanding is achieved, doubts will always remain which is the idea conveyed by that verse from Srimad Bhagavatam and Mundaka Upanishad provided in post #77


When the doubts disappear, they all do at the same time. This is like a person dreaming and finding himself in a jungle. There are multiple animals looking at him to attack and it is raining with lightning. He is afraid of dying by a falling tree or the lightning or any of the beasts. Just then a tiger jumps on the person and he wakes up. As soon as he wakes up from this dream all items of his dream like the tiger, tree, lightning, rain etc all disappear at once.

Therefore attempts to understand any of the concepts fully will lead towards the ultimate truth.

Regarding the word "karma", Shankara's commentary on IV-16 (and not - as typed above) tries to tell the readers, in a convoluted manner, that people should not identify and/or attribute karma, akarma and vikarma, etc., to the Atma (it is not clear whether BG/Shankara refer to jīvātmā or the paramātmā) but to understand that all these are limited to the body and the senses. Again, karma is that which the sastras approve of, and vikarma is action which is prohibited by the sastras, according to Shankara. Viewed in this perspective most of us tabras are doing mostly vikarmas only; but if we teach ourselves that all these vikarmas (prohibited actions) — because the avocations for brahmanas are laid down by krishna himself in BG Ch. 18 — are only those of the body and senses, then we have passed Krishna's test for understanding karma in the right manner!

Once again these caveats about the sookshma meanings of the different words, etc., are only tricks employed by various religionists to make these religious books appear mystical and scholarly, whereas, in reality, these books do not explain anything logically and satisfactorily. For a person like myself, all our great acharyas and rishis look like the Malayalam saying തട്ടിന്‍പുറത്താഹു മൃഗേന്ദ്രമുഖ്യന്‍ (taṭṭinpuṟattāhu mṛgendramukhyan = In the attic, the rat is the king of all animals!).
 
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Sri auh - you may interpose :-)

Words like absolute and relative can be used in many contexts.

Here I was talking specifically about two words Paramarthika and vyavaharika which have very specific meanings. There is one more word describing yet another 'reality' for completeness that I did not bring up here since it is not relevant for the point I was making.

One can only talk about existence of anything *only* if the meaning of the entity is understood.

Yes, absolute temperature as a limit do exist and used in scientific calculations. Yes, we can sum certain infinite series*fully* in the limit even if we cannot enumerate the infinite items. Some of the mathematical physics include working and manipulating with infinite dimensional space to actually calculate measurable items. Square root of -1 may not be imaginable by mind but do play a vital role in high school mathematics and its applications to physical problems.

Perhaps you have a notion about absolute reality which you may say does not exist 'now'. Use of the word now means you have a different notion since absolute reality is time independent and space independent. Since I do not know your notion I have to agree with you that it probably does not exist :-)

This is from wiki about complex numbers
A complex number whose real part is zero is said to be purely imaginary, whereas a complex number whose imaginary part is zero is a real number.
which, perhaps, may sum up the equation of our notion of an absolute reality and relative reality, and of the brahman that is. If the real part is zero then it is absolute reality, and is purely imaginary, and when the imaginary part is zero, it is relative reality. :-)
 
Dear Sangomji,

Your posts #92 and 93 are well presented and well thought out. I enjoyed reading them. Thank you.
 
Dear Shri tks Sir,

1. Thank you very much for your views, which are, as always, very learned and instructive. I think not only I but also the other readers will benefit from these discussions.

2. My own stand in matters like pāramārthikā reality, vyāvahārikā reality, etc., is that even our great ācāryas were hemmed in by the so called 'past baggage', meaning whatever was told in the upanishads - mainly, as also the earlier scriptures like the vedas, brahmanas, Aranyakas, etc.

Regarding pāramārthikā, vyāvahārikā, etc., will it not be correct to say that even those great ācāryas of the past would most probably not have had direct experience of the pāramārthikā variety and that the best they could have offered to us is their own imaginations or theories, if you so prefer, about what would be the picture, as viewed from the pāramārthikā level.

3. For example, these passages from the taittirīyopaniṣat are supposed to represent the exclamations of a jīvātmā which has transcended all the koshas:

hā ))) vu hā))) vu hā))) vu | ahamannamahamannamahamannam | ahamannādoऽ hamannādoऽ hamannādaḥ | ahagm̐ ślokakṛdahagm̐ ślokakṛdahagm̐ ślokakṛt | ahamasmiprathamajā ṛtā)))sya |... ahamannamannamadantama)))dmi |ahaṃ viśvaṃ bhuvanabhyabhavām |

But, even here, the sense of aham is found to be intact!


4. In my proposal the Life Force will take the place of this pāramārthikā reality and our own experienced world/universe will, no doubt, represent the vyāvahārikā.



5. The above dichotomy (about karma as a sentient entity and the Life Force which I refer to) is, I think, no more contradictory or erroneous than the problem created by Shankara's Brahman and avidyā concepts. Because, as you will definitely be knowing, one of the points held against advaita is "what is the origination and what is the locus of avidyā?". I do not know of any logically satisfying answer from the advaitin scholars which safeguards the position of brahman as the one and only reality and, at the same time, clarifies wherefrom avidyā originated, whether it was originally a part of brahman (if yes, then brahman has at least one guna, viz., avidyā;) and if avidyā was not part of brahman what was its source of origination and where was it located before afflicting the jīvātmās, etc.

6. My proposition does not claim adherence to either advaita or dwaita philosophy, nor does it claim that karma is sentient. Just as poisonous substances (which are insentient in our vyāvahārikā reality) in pond water will adhere to the skin of every bather, and what particles stick to one person's skin will not be able to stick to another bather's skin, etc., it is possible to imagine karma also as consisting of non-sentient particles and attaching to every new birth.

So when our 'past baggage' could lend itself to different and mutually contrarian interpretations like advaita and dwaita, and when advaita itself is unable to explain where the avidyā came from and where it resided — before afflicting the so called jīvātmās — and the inherent contradiction of brahman and avidyā being mutually independent, probably co-eval and both being almost endless, etc., this perceived contradiction of karma as a sentient item and the Life Force could be tolerated.

I do not think we should rigidly adhere to the old requirements as invariable conditions. If we do so, we will be compelled to end up with one or the other options of brahman + avidyā (māyā), sagunabrahman (viśiṣṭādvaita), or sagunabrahman separate from jīvātmā (dwaita) and will be back to square one!

< Clipped >



Once again, let me submit that my proposition does not claim adherence to either advaita or dwaita philosophy, nor does it claim that karma is sentient. Just as poisonous substances (which are insentient in our vyāvahārikā reality) in pond water will adhere to the skin of every bather, and what particles stick to one person's skin will not be able to stick to another bather's skin, etc., it is possible to imagine karma also as consisting of non-sentient particles and attaching to every new birth.

Our scriptures have not gone through any scientific or logical evaluation, though I agree that the theories churned out (mainly three in number) have probably been. Even among these three, it is possibly the first, advaita which has been subjected to much evaluation and the tenet of avidyā (māyā) has come in for much scrutiny and criticism without any logically satisfactory decision. That is why we still see vaishnavam and mādhvaṃ doing well and thriving.

Under these circumstances, I feel it will be a beneficial thing to delink our beliefs from those ancient tenets, and posit a new one which does away with the need for anthropomorphic deities, idolatry, temples which are essentially run on business principles fleecing the common man's gullibility, the tendency to lean on to superstitious customs and practices, and, above all, an overwhelming preoccupation (both time- and energy-wise) to all these unsatisfactory tendencies.

Dear Sri Sangom

Thanks for your comments. I just numbered your response so I can refer to it easily

1. Thanks.

2. I have no interest in any history including history of the acharyas and history of any practitioners of any religion for the following reasons. Whatever that is available today can be examined to know if what is taught is self consistent, useful, does not contradict established knowledge and can be communicated to another qualified person 100% without any loss. The conviction I state in a categorical manner comes from examining what is available using the help of qualified teachers, and other sincere students. If my understanding along the way is shown incomplete I am open to revise my understanding.

Whether Acharyas of the past experienced anything is not relevant from above perspective. For example, I do not care to learn ritualistic aspects of Buddhists, though sermons of Buddha are very useful for my quest. Similarly I am yet to find anything that Sri Sankara has said to be wrong yet but it is not for the want of trying. More than whether he is right or wrong, they have been useful to my objectives and vision for life.

I do not expect others to have this view or feel the same manner. Therefore I understand your viewpoint based on your experience and can leave it at that.

3. In the past at this forum, I think I once commented on this verse in response to a question. I personally do not like the usage of Jivatma, Paramatma etc. They tend to confuse the issues. There is atma (I) and there is a (fake 'I' thought) called Ahankara which is necessary for living but causes confusion in our experience of reality. Once this 'fake I' experience is understood for what it is, one can understand the only I there is. So the only I always remains.

4. You may have to consider revising your views because this is a contradiction. If I stand in front of a mirror, knowing who I am is like Paramarthika reality and the mirror image that I see in the mirror appears as long as I stand in front of the mirror comprises the Vyavaharika reality. Your wife cannot come to feed your mirror image because the food she will be in Paramarthika reality in this limited example and mirror image is in the Vyavaharika reality.

Your model of Karmaa is in Vyavaharika reality and cannot interact with your universal force in the Paramarthika reality. There are many other ways of expressing the contradictions but I will leave this with this one comment only.

5. The Poorva Paksha views of Advita were nicely compiled by Sri Ramanuja as seven untenable in his Sri Bhashya. You picked up on one and mentioned here. There are six others. There have been thread(s) here in this forum with many posts. In any case the objections have been satisfactorily & fully answered by many people including Sri Madhusudhana Saraswathi in his book called Advita Siddhi. I have read abbreviated and translated version of this rather large book. In addition there is an American John Grimes who wrote a PhD thesis examining this topic and published a book (which I got in one of my trips to India many years ago). I will refer you to those works. What emerges from the detailed analysis of the objections is that people had not understood the teaching properly. My point in my prior email is that those objections will apply to your theory.

6. Anyone is welcome to make theories but it has to be reconciled across all the experiences and has to be useful. If a term such as Karma is used in a new theory, which is borrowed term from a well established field then the new theory has to use the term as it is. Your views cannot be reconciled with what is understood by the term karma. If on the other hand it is a new term like Universal Force then it has to meet the test of usefulness and should be reconcilable across all human experience. The onus to prove all these rests with the proponent of a theory. Regarding the various schools of thoughts like Advita, VA, Dwita etc , they can coexist within this all encompassing Hinduism. However if someone is truly in search of truth they will see eventual unification regardless of their starting point. The if is a big if!

Thanks for engagement !
 


Shri tks Sir,

1. The above seems to me to be the usual "ploy" of many of our religious scholars to confuse ordinary people and pretend as if they are repositories of true wisdom!

2. If words like avidya, karma, dharma, punya, papa, brahman, maya etc., do not have a parallel in our lives in this three-dimensional world, then why should any ordinary person get interested in any of these, at all? Why do our scriptures, including the various puranas and itihasas which category is supposed to explain the various aspects in a simple manner, use all these words ever so commonly?

3.If these words are such that their precise meanings
can be used to teach & point to truth, it should naturally follow that these words have precise meanings; does it not?



4. Firstly, we have no proof that the Isvara (supposedly the all knowing entity and representing all truths) created the body, mind, emotion, thought, intellect, etc., whatever the definition of that Isvara be. But if, according to you, this Isvara is Brahman, then by definition, the Brahman which is defined as nirguna will not be able to create anything. So this creator Isvara has to be some separate centre of power, different from Brahman. Consequently, Brahman loses the position of the one and only reality!

On the other hand if we go by my proposition, it may be seen that the karma sheath covering the Life Force is the equivalent of this avidyaa.




5 Regarding the word "karma", Shankara's commentary on IV-16 (and not - as typed above) tries to tell the readers, in a convoluted manner, that people should not identify and/or attribute karma, akarma and vikarma, etc., to the Atma (it is not clear whether BG/Shankara refer to jīvātmā or the paramātmā) but to understand that all these are limited to the body and the senses. Again, karma is that which the sastras approve of, and vikarma is action which is prohibited by the sastras, according to Shankara. Viewed in this perspective most of us tabras are doing mostly vikarmas only; but if we teach ourselves that all these vikarmas (prohibited actions) — because the avocations for brahmanas are laid down by krishna himself in BG Ch. 18 — are only those of the body and senses, then we have passed Krishna's test for understanding karma in the right manner!

Once again these caveats about the sookshma meanings of the different words, etc., are only tricks employed by various religionists to make these religious books appear mystical and scholarly, whereas, in reality, these books do not explain anything logically and satisfactorily. For a person like myself, all our great acharyas and rishis look like the Malayalam saying തട്ടിന്‍പുറത്താഹു മൃഗേന്ദ്രമുഖ്യന്‍ (taṭṭinpuṟattāhu mṛgendramukhyan = In the attic, the rat is the king of all animals!).

Dear Sri Sangom

I have numbered your points to make it easier to respond.

1. No comment. I only look at what is available today and examine if it has use for my vision for life.

2. These words (avidya, karma, dharma, punya, papa, brahman, maya) do not have parallels to what we see in the world or experience. This is unlike words like heat, light, sound, space, time etc. If we take a word like space or time, a child who is 5 or 6 has some idea. The same child in middle school science class has a different meaning. When a person goes to college to study Physics their view of space and time has evolved to begin to appreciate the relative nature of these entities (based on special theory of relativity). Today's research professor of cosmology will describe space and time more like science fiction terms (and actually they seem closer to Sri Sankara's views of space/time from certain perspectives. The puranas teach the meaning of the terms like papa, punya to a level expected of a child in this metaphor.

3. These words I mentioned do have precise meanings. However the ultimate reality due to which even the words with their meanings exist cannot describe it adequately. The final processing to understand is done by us with the teaching & guru only pointing to the truth.

4. I loosely used words like Isvara etc. in my previous post. My point is that any word if examined in detail will end up pulling other words requiring the entire teaching to be unfolded for complete clarity.

5. I do have a bad tendency to not fully revise, type directly and hit the submit button. I am trying to improve. In this case what was shown (in the edit screen) was correct and yet it swallowed the letter 6! Yes it is verse 4.16 Thanks.

My own understanding about Chapter 18 is that it is perfectly fine though I can appreciate why certain verses have caused so much concern over the years. It is unthinkable for many that Bhagavan Krishna has created the four varnas and provided descriptions for people to exploit each other in a sanctioned manner!

There are many such incorrect notions. It may require about 50 posts or so to address the topic area properly for me to communicate my understanding.

I have suggested the need for a scholarly discussion (and I consider this exchange to be an example of scholarly discussion though we may not have agreed on many points). It can be considered a Jnana-Yagna regardless :-)

But there are few with Asura traits ready to jump only to spit into this Yagna with their agenda & insecurity to propagate their prejudices and Raga-Dvesha LoL

Scholarly discussions with respectful debates have become rarity in many forums and ours is no exception. If such a section opens up with better guidelines for vigorous debates, there will be opportunities to discuss the troublesome verses in Chapter 18 of B. Gita (some of which started in Chapter 4)

Thanks again!
 
This is from wiki about complex numbers
which, perhaps, may sum up the equation of our notion of an absolute reality and relative reality, and of the brahman that is. If the real part is zero then it is absolute reality, and is purely imaginary, and when the imaginary part is zero, it is relative reality. :-)

OK, Are you imaginary? :-)
 
We need religion as religious activities become recreation for many in their day to day life.
For most people it is an opium to forget their fear of death / nightmare about the last days.
 
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