Why do we Pray - is it begging?

[prasad1]

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"Why pray? What is the point of prayer when the Advaita Brahman is everything. On the outset I am a believer in Advaitin Brahman and full faith in Karma theory.

There are two types of prayers (I am talking of Bhakti).
1. Is begging to get some favors from God.
2. Praising God to get some brownie points (As if Brahman is a Royalty that will throw some crumbs).

I assume Lord Shiva meditating on Brahman is not same as Prayer.


When I go to Bhajan, and listen to the lyrics I feel very uncomfortable. It does not match with my philosophy. Similarly when I go to puja's and understand the meaning of the verses, I feel uncomfortable. I almost hate to go to Satya Narayan puja, and suffer through the Katha which seems so hollow to me. I life a social life so have to endure it even if it bothers me personally.

We visit Temple almost every week, having been associated with my local Temple. I also visit Temples all over the world, but of late I have become more of a tourist than a devotee.

Kabir Das says:
paahan pooje hari miley to mai poojun pahaad
taatein chakki bhali jo pees khaaye sansar


translation :
if praying to an idol (stone) leads to God then I will pray to a mountain
better than that is a stone flour mill
which feeds the world grinding grain


Similarly Rahim Das says:

"Rahiman yachakta gahe,bade chot hoye jaat.Narayan ko he bhayo,bawan angul gaat."
Meaning that one becomes very small (in status) when asking something from someone.

Remember , your success depends on the inward state of your mind. Yes, I agree that most of us want to have riches, healthy lives, nice children and prosperous future. But if we always approached God with a begging attitude then we are treating Him as our bearer to supply the things required by us at once. This is no devotion to God but devotion to our own selfish desires.

 

[renuka]

Dear Prasad ji,

I see some change in mindset.

At some stage in life I think all of us go through a phase where we are searching for what suits us the best..and not that I am some Mataji or anything but I have come to feel that we can never find what we are searching for cos there is NOTHING to search for.

Nothing in the sense..we can only search for what is outside of us but what is there to search when everything is inside us?

So the search is futile..asking anything too is futile.Just BE..BEING is enough and BEING is everything.

Now coming to lyrics of bhajans etc..just enjoy the music..the poetic excellence etc..
After all music is from Sapta Swaras..I try to look at them that way.

Some lyrics might not really actually match our thinking at all and in fact depict a Bhaktha as sinner ..as lost individual etc.I guess its the human mind that wants to have "I am a sinner and You redeem me" syndrome as to avoid responsibilities and hoping to escape each time we commit an error.

A religious song I am fond of has a line that goes..

"To mujh ko dekh raha kabse
Mein tera darshan kar na saka"


This might not really match how we think cos some of us would have not actually "ignored" spirituality but if the tune is nice I dont mind singing anything!

After all even when I sing "Here I am..Rock you like a Hurricane"..technically there is NO Hurricane but I just enjoy the music.

 

[biswa]

Why not for trying to get some wisdom / guidance / strength from God? That is similar to what somebody may seek from a parent, and typically a child need not beg from their parent.

 

[renuka]

Why not for trying to get some wisdom / guidance / strength from God? .

Wisdom is gained by experience of the trial and error kind..guidance from someone elses experience in the same matter or field..strength is when we finally make a decision.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Prasad Sir,

Very recently, we had the following thread started by Renu!

Is God an "Employee"?? And now this!

Sometime back, another member had a doubt whether we bribe God for favors! The logic is as simple as this. For those who believe

that God / Goddess is everything for them (including parents) , they don't have any hesitation in asking for boons, just like we ask for

gifts from our parents! Most of the songs in Carnatic music describe the beauty of the God / Goddess or ask for 'mukthi' (NO rebirth)!

In fact, there is a song requesting Goddess Kamakshi to bestow good health and strong body, by Sri. Shyama Sasthri.

I don't feel it is wrong to ask for favors from the Almighty. If we just belief in Karma theory and NOT in good effect by sincere prayers,
then there is no need for temples and poojas! No visits to temples and we can just relax at home. :couch2:

P.S: The stories told during 'Sathyanarayana pooja' makes me also embarrassed because they actually threaten the devotees to a

great extent. God is NOT supposed to scare us, right?

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Sir,

I have seen in temples ‘Bhikshatana’ - God Shiva with a begging bowl

 

[renuka]

Sir,

I have seen in temples ‘Bhikshatana’ - God Shiva with a begging bowl

Dear Sir,

That is Lord Shiva telling us "See how much you people have asked from Me and left Me in dire straits"(just kidding)

Actually there is a sort of semi humorous stanza in Sanskrit where Parvati gets very angry with Lord Shiva for having taken begging as profession.

So she tells him that she is fed up of this life and tells Lord Shiva to go into farming(agriculture)....to ask a piece of land from Parashurama...to ask grains/seeds from His friend Kubera..ask Balarama for a plough..ask Yama for a buffalo to plough the land along with Nandi..Skanda will tend to the cattle she (Parvati) will bring food for Him when He works in the fields"


So Bala sir..there is so much problem in God's home itself..so why burden Him and keep asking Him things non stop?

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Dear Sir,

So Bala sir..there is so much problem in God's home itself..so why burden Him and keep asking Him things non stop?

Mam,

As far as I am concerned, குறை ஒன்றும் இல்லை மறைமூர்த்தி கண்ணா - I go to temples to thank the God for all His blessings, worship and pray for the well being of t kith and kin, and for speedy recovery of those who suffer with ailment, etc 'SarveJanah Sukhino Bhavantu'. In our Mandali we all collectively pray for His blessings, though most of us know bit about karma theory.

 

[renuka]

Why dont we try a test.

Since Sravna had suggested in another thread to pray for cooler Chennai..why dont we try to just devote one day(24 hours) a prayer solely to God WITHOUT asking Him anything...to just focus on Him without asking for even a blessing of any sort.

We might actually know how much concentration we lack and how much desire ridden we are.

Anyone want to try??

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

Why dont we try a test.

Since Sravna had suggested in another thread to pray for cooler Chennai..why dont we try to just devote one day(24 hours) a prayer solely to God WITHOUT asking Him anything...to just focus on Him without asking for even a blessing of any sort.

We might actually know how much concentration we lack and how much desire ridden we are.

Anyone want to try??

Renu dear, you have hit the nail on the head. Perhaps God thinks 'How selfish this person is who prays for favors from me. If only he/she seeks Me instead of the material things of the world, he would realize in Me is contained everything. How I earn for Him/Her to seek Me but He/She does not!!!!!'.

True prayer in my humble opinion is to ask God to build His character in us, reflect His Agape, to be a channel of His Love, blessings to others rather than to be a recipient of His blessings. Is not in giving than receiving, the greatest Joy!!!!!

 

[Raji Ram]

To "ask God to build His character in us, reflect His Agape, to be a channel of His Love, blessings to others"

is also receiving from God and NOT giving to God!

 

[renuka]

Renu dear, you have hit the nail on the head. Perhaps God thinks 'How selfish this person is who prays for favors from me. If only he/she seeks Me instead of the material things of the world, he would realize in Me is contained everything. How I earn for Him/Her to seek Me but He/She does not!!!!!'.

True prayer in my humble opinion is to ask God to build His character in us, reflect His Agape, to be a channel of His Love, blessings to others rather than to be a recipient of His blessings. Is not in giving than receiving, the greatest Joy!!!!!

Kuvs,

Yesterday I told my husband about this "To pray just at least 1 day without asking anything from God"

And today when I asked him if he prayed without asking anything and he said its not possible..cos he always asks God to bless the family and prayer wont feel complete without it.

I guess it aint easy to pray without asking.

 

[Raji Ram]

Yesterday, I went to buy vegetables and the shopkeeper was asking for seven rupees from and elderly mAmi

and she retorted, 'ennaikku nee change koduththirukka? nAnE kodukkarEn!!' for which that guy replied coolly,

'kodukkaRavangaLa thaana mAmi kEkka mudiyum!'

OMG, what a wonderful reply! Yes! We can ask the PERSON who WILL give us and He / She is the Almighty! ray:

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

Kuvs,

Yesterday I told my husband about this "To pray just at least 1 day without asking anything from God"

And today when I asked him if he prayed without asking anything and he said its not possible..cos he always asks God to bless the family and prayer wont feel complete without it.

I guess it aint easy to pray without asking.

Renu,

Absolutely nothing wrong in asking. My husband often quotes from the Bible 'Ask and ye shall receive. You do not have because you do not ask. Ask so that your joy may be full'. Indeed God wants us to ask. But what do we ask God?

God has not created us to be machines in His hand. Hence He has given us the free-will to choose the course of our lives. But do we choose ourselves or do we ask God to choose for us?

God is gentle. He does not want to impose Himself on us. Hence unless we ask He would not interfere in our affairs. Do we ask God to do His will in our lives? Or do we dictate God to conduct Himself as per our will?

 

[renuka]

Dear RR ji,

I had mentioned in Forum before that when I was a kid I used to pray by saluting the altar at home like a soldier and ask God "Hello..How are You?"

To which my mother used to tell me "that is not how you pray..you are supposed to ask God to bless you in studies etc"

I used to tell her "But what about God?? Doesnt anyone ask Him how He is?"

I used to feel a bit sad that no one was bothered how God felt.

I guess now I have become that same kid again..not asking God anything but concerned about HIM that dwells in me.

 

[renuka]

Renu,

Absolutely nothing wrong in asking. My husband often quotes from the Bible 'Ask and ye shall receive. You do not have because you do not ask. Ask so that your joy may be full'. Indeed God wants us to ask. But what do we ask God?

God has not created us to be machines in His hand. Hence He has given us the free-will to choose the course of our lives. But do we choose ourselves or do we ask God to choose for us?

God is gentle. He does not want to impose Himself on us. Hence unless we ask He would not interfere in our affairs. Do we ask God to do His will in our lives? Or do we dictate God to conduct Himself as per our will?

Kuvs,

By not "asking God" we actually become stronger..cos we use our own inner strength to face situations.

Then we realize strength we had never known before or never even knew we had...and that inner strength is nothing but God.

So technically when we call upon God we are actually calling upon SELF.....SELF =BRAHMAN.

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

Kuvs,

By not "asking God" we actually become stronger..cos we use our own inner strength to face situations.

Then we realize strength we had never known before or never even knew we had...and that inner strength is nothing but God.

So technically when we call upon God we are actually calling upon SELF.....SELF =BRAHMAN.

Renu,

Don't you think, for God to be that inner strength we never even knew we had, we need to ASK God to be, to come inside of us, to dwell inside us?

 

[renuka]

Renu,

Don't you think, for God to be that inner strength we never even knew we had, we need to ASK God to be, to come inside of us, to dwell inside us?

Kuvs,

Your post reminds me of this song:

Come O Lord, Come O Life,
Come Thou dwell in me,

Technically..why do we need to "invite" God?

HE is no Athiti..HE is the Antaryamin.

Its up to us to feel this.

 

[Vaagmi]

Renukaji,

There are people who worship every day this way:

1. aham madrakshaNabarO madrakshanaphalam thathA,
namama sripathErEva ithyAtmAnam nikshibEdbudha:

2. nyasyAmyakkinchana sriman anukUlOnyavarjitha:
viswAsaprArthanApoorvam AtmarakshA baram twayI.

3. SwAmin swasEsham swavasam swabarathvEna nirbaram
swadatthaswathiyAswArtham swasmin nyasyasi mAm swayam

4. srimanabheeshtavaradha tvAmasmi saraNamgatha
EthadEhAvasAnE mAm thwathpAdham prApayaswayam

5. twachchEshathvE sthirathiyam, twathprApyekaprayOjanam
nishiddakAmya rahitham kurumAm nitya kinkaram

6. Devibhushana hEdhyAdhi jushtasya bhagavamsthava
nityam niraparAthEshu kainkaryEshu niyunkshva mAm

7. mAm madeeyancha nikhilam chEtanAchEtanAtmaham
swakainkaryOpakaraNam varadha sweekuru swayam

8. twadEka rakshyasya mama twamEva karunAkara
napravarthaya pApAni pravruththAni nivarththaya:

9. akruthyAnAnchakaraNam kruthyAnAm varjananchamE
kshamaswa nikhilam dEva pranathArthihara prabhO

10. sriman niyatha panchAngam madhrakshaNa parArpanam
achIkarath swayam swasmin athoham iha nirbhara.

This is in simple Sanskrit. You know that language. This is a simple prayer by Swami Desikan. Is there anything asked for in this prayer for himself. You can daily pray before God with this prayer. The last stanza contains a word panchAngam which has a special meaning. If you are interested please get back. I can explain.

There is an equivalent of this prayer in Tamil too for those for whom Sanskrit is Afrikaans. Here it is:

நின்னருளாங்கதியன்றி மற்றொன்றில்லேன்
நெடுங்காலம் பிழை செய்த நிலை கழிந்தேன்
நின்னருளுக்கு இனிதான நிலையுகந்தேன்
உன்சரணே சரணென்னும் துணிவு பூண்டேன்
மன்னிருளாய் நின்ற நிலை எனக்குத்தீர்த்து
வானவர்தம் வாழ்ச்சிதர வரித்தேன் உன்னை
இன்னருளால் இனி எனக்கோர் பரமேற்றாமல்
எந்திருமால் அடைக்கலம் கொள் என்னை நீயே.

This kavithai is also set with the panchAngam as the underlying discipline.

 

[renuka]

I actually have this saved in my lap top.

For those who want the full meaning of what Vaagmi ji pasted.

Click on this link.

http://www.ibiblio.org/sadagopan/ahobilavalli/nyasa_dasakam_part1.pdf

 

[renuka]

Vaagmi ji,

I found it!

PanchAnga(5 angas) of prapatti


http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/all94/0009.html



1. The first angam is anukoolya sangalpam

ugakkum avai = that which is pleasing to the Lord
uganNthu = performing the above


A prapanna is determined to act only in ways that will please the
Lord.


2. The second angam is praathi koolya varjanam

ugavaa vanaitthum = all that displeases the Lord
ozhinNthu = spurn the above


Equally, the prapanna is determined not to act in ways that will
displease the Lord.


3. The third angam is maha visvaasam

uRavu guNam
uNarnNthu = realizing the nature of the relationship
between jiva and paramaathma

miga thuNivu peRa = determined to receive His grace


The prapanna is sure, without a trace of doubt, of the fact that the
lord will grant salvation. (Drowpathi let go of her hold on her
vasthram and the Lord immediately came to her rescue.)


4. The fourth angam is gOpthruthva varaNam

viyan kaaval ena varitthu = Pleading to the Lord that prapatti is as
the only course for our salvation


Prapanna is convinced that the other upaayams (karma, bhakti,
etc.) are beyond his capacity and prapatti is the only way.


5. The fifth anga is kaarppaNyam

jagatthil oru
pugal illa = not knowing any way to reach His Lotus
feet
thavam aRiyEn = unable to perform any other penance
(viz. karma, gyana, bhakti yoga etc.)


The prapanna pleads to the Lord with utmost humility to grant
salvation.

 

[Vaagmi]

PanchAngam..means Five Limbs isnt it?

Kindly explain its context here..Vaagmi ji.

Renukaji,

From the kitchen my Big Boss is punctuating the "mAnAtheethaprathithavibavAm mangalam mangalAnAm, vakshapIdIm madhuvidhayinO bhUshayanthIm swakAnthyA" with "you have gone mad with your computer. You have to go and have your shave. It is getting late" etc. etc., I always obey the Boss. So I will explain the panchangam later. LOL.

 

[renuka]

Renukaji,

From the kitchen my Big Boss is punctuating the "mAnAtheethaprathithavibavAm mangalam mangalAnAm, vakshapIdIm madhuvidhayinO bhUshayanthIm swakAnthyA" with "you have gone mad with your computer. You have to go and have your shave. It is getting late" etc. etc., I always obey the Boss. So I will explain the panchangam later. LOL.

Dear Vaagmi ji,

I have already found it! See post above.

I had actually saved that whole prayer by Swami Desikan and read it a long long time ago using it to practice my Sandhi rules.

So I went down memory lane and searched my computer and found it along with another link I had saved sometime back.

Anyway I would glad to hear your explanation too..so kindly do explain.

 

[Raji Ram]

Any boss will go mad if the better half sits with the computer, without even having a bath till around 9 am.

In my sweet home the rule is - bath and prayer before breakfast between 8.30 - 8.45 a.m IST.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Why dont we try a test.

just focus on Him without asking for even a blessing of any sort.

Mam,


IMO “Prayer is when you talk to God; meditation is when you listen to God.”

Diana Robinson quotes