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Why do we Pray - is it begging?

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Renukaji,

The ibiblio/sadagopan link gives it all well. I have nothing more to add. i would say just that the mahAviswAsam is very important and without that the other four angas would be meaningless. This is just as the brahmAstra fired at Hanumanji by Indrajit became powerless quickly though initially it bound and tied down the VAyuputra. The reason? Please think about it.
 
Any boss will go mad if the better half sits with the computer, without even having a bath till around 9 am.

In my sweet home the rule is - bath and prayer before breakfast between 8.30 - 8.45 a.m IST. :)

RR,

On Saturdays and Sundays we take a lot of liberty with our Boss and she enjoys it also. She tries to discipline and we try to escape that. Of course, for everything we understand that there is a Lakshmanrekha. We do not cross that. If the Boss says something when she is at "mAnatheetha....." we meet the demand at least by the time she is at "shrEyOmUrthi sakala buvana prArthanA kAmadhEnu". Otherwise we know all hell will break loose.
 
Dear Vaagmi Sir,

Is there any saying 'Sani late-A neerAdu!'?? :)

RR,

It is an acquired trait. My daughter, whenever she visits us (this happens frequently in week-ends because she lives here in the same city) she makes full use of the freedom of her "pirantha aam". She is a typical Indumathy's (novelist) heroine. My SIL who also turns a lazy-bone on week ends perfectly supplements her efforts(?) to stay lazy. Morning first thing she does is to sit before the TV and start watching Hindi soap. She understands Hindi and Malayalam (because of my extended stay in north and then in Kerala) better than Tamil. It is a different story that she is not ready to forgive me for not teaching her Tamil. That is one regret which I will carry through. After the soap session it is news papers. Then it is just lazing around or a conversation with her cousins who all live nearby. So in such an overpowering atmosphere of laziness I lose my bearings. The only person who keeps her head above water is my Boss. And we are happy about that.
 
In another thread
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/15827-malaysia-airlines-tvk.html#post234977

Things happen for a reason. If there was an activist God, as opposed to Brahman, the prayers would have been answered and the outcome would have a different ending.

If prayers were to change the outcome then Ram would not have to go away to Vanavas.
and similarly the Pandavas would not have to fight that war.

It is abundantly clear that prayer do not change the outcome. Prayers might prepare you to accept the results, which are according to the actions.
 
"Why pray? What is the point of prayer when the Advaita Brahman is everything. On the outset I am a believer in Advaitin Brahman and full faith in Karma theory.

There are two types of prayers (I am talking of Bhakti).
1. Is begging to get some favors from God.
2. Praising God to get some brownie points (As if Brahman is a Royalty that will throw some crumbs).

< snipped >
Kabir Das says:
paahan pooje hari miley to mai poojun pahaad
taatein chakki bhali jo pees khaaye sansar


translation :
if praying to an idol (stone) leads to God then I will pray to a mountain
better than that is a stone flour mill
which feeds the world grinding grain


Similarly Rahim Das says:

"Rahiman yachakta gahe,bade chot hoye jaat.Narayan ko he bhayo,bawan angul gaat."
Meaning that one becomes very small (in status) when asking something from someone.

Remember , your success depends on the inward state of your mind. Yes, I agree that most of us want to have riches, healthy lives, nice children and prosperous future. But if we always approached God with a begging attitude then we are treating Him as our bearer to supply the things required by us at once. This is no devotion to God but devotion to our own selfish desires.

The majority, if not the whole, of humanity has by now been so effectively mentally (psychologically) conditioned by religions, gurus, godmen and godwomen, etc., about prayer and eulogisation of gods of various assorted types, that it is no use starting such discussions.

To understand about prayers, one must understand the truth. Here even a personality like AdiShankara appears to have failed miserably because the Shankara Mutts like Sringeri, Kanchi, etc., themselves do not follow advaita but try to pass on a culture of idol worship, prayers to gods, etc. Until one starts understanding the concept of Brahman and Jagat and the Adhyaasa which makes this jagat look real for us, there is no escape from the routine of gods, deities, worship, prayer and praises of gods, etc.; these are all part of this samsaara and help in sustaining it.
 
Prayers may not chang the outcome, but prayers may help someone deal with the inevitable outcome. After all no amount of prayer will make one immortal.

I think this is similar to what Renkaji is saying, that we pray to find the strength within ourselves. Or maybe God helps us find the strength. Who knows? Depend on what you believe in.


In another thread
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/15827-malaysia-airlines-tvk.html#post234977

Things happen for a reason. If there was an activist God, as opposed to Brahman, the prayers would have been answered and the outcome would have a different ending.

If prayers were to change the outcome then Ram would not have to go away to Vanavas.
and similarly the Pandavas would not have to fight that war.

It is abundantly clear that prayer do not change the outcome. Prayers might prepare you to accept the results, which are according to the actions.
 
If prayers were to change the outcome then Ram would not have to go away to Vanavas.



Sir,

The greatest power in the world as we have learnt from the Vedas, Puranas, etc is the power of people to communicate withAlmighty God.

Prayer is not a scheme whereby we can move God into our lives but rather spiritual exercise through which we draw ourselves toward God until we are a part of His plan and His purpose of creation.

The purpose of prayer is not to give us what we want, when we want, but to make us the person God wanted us to be when he put us on this planet.


Since Ramayana was cited, I would like quote the following:

Scene: Ravana vs Sri Rama Venue: Battle field


Agastya teaches Sri Rama who after fighting with Ravana and being severely tried and tired, became anxious on the battle field. Sri Rama was fatigued after the long battle with various worriers of Lanka. (Yuddha Kanda, (Book 6 - Canto 107) as composed by Agastya and compiled by Valmiki.


It is aprayer by Sri Rama invoking God to bless him with the requisite strength for victory in the battle field.


Aditya Hridyam Hymn is part of Yuddha Kand. As per sage Valmiki, it is a Hymn in glorification of the Sun God and was recitedby the Great sage Agastya to Rama on the battle field before fighting with Ravana.


While God pray and achieve victory, we are all, afterall human beings…..

Good day.



To be continued..
 
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Sir,

The greatest power in the world as we have learnt from the Vedas, Puranas, etc is the power of people to communicate withAlmighty God.

Prayer is not a scheme whereby we can move God into our lives but rather spiritual exercise through which we draw ourselves toward God until we are a part of His plan and His purpose of creation.

The purpose of prayer is not to give us what we want, when we want, but to make us the person God wanted us to be when he put us on this planet.


Since Ramayana was cited, I would like quote the following:

Scene: Ravana vs Sri Rama Venue: Battle field


Agastya teaches Sri Rama who after fighting with Ravana and being severely tried and tired, became anxious on the battle field. Sri Rama was fatigued after the long battle with various worriers of Lanka. (Yuddha Kanda, (Book 6 - Canto 107) as composed by Agastya and compiled by Valmiki.


It is aprayer by Sri Rama invoking God to bless him with the requisite strength for victory in the battle field.


Aditya Hridyam Hymn is part of Yuddha Kand. As per sage Valmiki, it is a Hymn in glorification of the Sun God and was recitedby the Great sage Agastya to Rama on the battle field before fighting with Ravana.


While God pray and achieve victory, we are all, afterall human beings…..

Good day.



To be continued..
Well said Shri VB
 
Dear Balu Sir,

You can write about Rameswaram temple. :)

Here is a gist from Wiki:


The primary deity of the temple is Ramanathaswamy (
Shiva) in the form of lingam. There are two lingams inside the sanctum -

one built by Goddess Sita, from sand, residing as the main deity, Ramalingam and the one brought by Lord Hanuman from
Kailash

called Vishwalingam. Lord Rama instructed that Vishwalingam should be worshipped first since it was brought by Lord Hanuman -

the tradition continue even today.
 
Dear Balu Sir,

You can write about Rameswaram temple. :)



Mam,

Thanks. This, i.e. about Rameswaram, I was having in my mind to be my next post and hence I concluded with “To be continued”.


The importance of Rameswaram is that it was here that God Sri Rama prayed Lord Siva after killing Ravana to absolve from the sin of brahmahatya (killing a brahmin – Ravana).
 
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"I may have all the six ingredients (effort, initiative, courage, intelligence, resourcefulness and perseverance) for success but still there may be something that makes the difference between success and failure. By my prayer, I invoke daivam, the seventh factor, to take care of the unknown element .Without the 6 ingredients, even prayer cannot help.Without prayer, just the 6 ingredients alone are inadequate."- Swami Dayananda
 
Shankaracharya's most profound advice is 'Bhaja Govindam, Bhaja Govindam, Moodamathe'. Gnana vichara is one path, immersion in bhakti is available to all as another equivalent or perhaps better path. Only the individual aspirant will know first hand which leads one from gnana to bhakti or vice versa.



The majority, if not the whole, of humanity has by now been so effectively mentally (psychologically) conditioned by religions, gurus, godmen and godwomen, etc., about prayer and eulogisation of gods of various assorted types, that it is no use starting such discussions.

To understand about prayers, one must understand the truth. Here even a personality like AdiShankara appears to have failed miserably
 
Mam,

Thanks. This, i.e. about Rameswaram, I was having in my mind to be my next post and hence I concluded with “To be continued”.


The importance of Rameswaram is that it was here that God Sri Rama prayed Lord Siva after killing Ravana to absolve from the sin of brahmahatya (killing a brahmin – Ravana).

While discussing about Rameswaram I which to share a few more interesting facts about this holy place. Rameswaram is one of the four Dhams (Char Dhams) dedicated by Shri Sankaracharya along with Bhadrinath , Dwarakapuri and Jagannathpuri. The 12families of priests who perform puja at the Ramanathaswamy temple are traditionally from the Maharashtrian Brahmin community 
who have obtained deeksha or consecration from the Sringeri Sharada Peetham. As per the tradition , besides the priests 
and the Hindu kings of Nepal, 
only Sringeri Shankaracharya and Sethupathy are allowed inside the Sanctum of the Temple.
Among the 12 Jyothirlingas Rameswaram is the only Jyothirlinga-kshetram situated in Tamil Nadu.
 
I believe Sri Jayendra too was allowed inside the Sanctum till unfortunate scandal. I am not sure his visits are restored after the acquittal. A report from the Hindu:

Feb, 2007:

"RAMANATHAPURAM: Kanchi Acharya Sri Jayendra Saraswathy on Friday visited Sri Ramanathaswamy Temple at Rameswaram in the district.

This is the first visit of the Acharya to the holy town ever since he was denied permission to enter the sanctum sanctorum of Sri Ramanathaswamy Temple on July 14, 2005.

Expectations were high when he entered the temple whether or not he would go to the sanctum sanctorum. However, he did not go to the `moolasthanam.'

Kanchi Acharya visits Rameswaram temple - The Hindu




As per the tradition , besides the priests 
and the Hindu kings of Nepal, 
only Sringeri Shankaracharya and Sethupathy are allowed inside the Sanctum of the Temple.
 



To understand about prayers, one must understand the truth. Here even a personality like AdiShankara appears to have failed miserably because the Shankara Mutts like Sringeri, Kanchi, etc., themselves do not follow advaita but try to pass on a culture of idol worship, prayers to gods, etc.;

May be this understanding of Adi Sankara or Sankara Mutts is incorrect.

As per Sankara the pursuit of Brahman is a full time occupation which cannot brook any other part time or full time jobs including running the "samsara" and none of the idol worshippers or idol-less worshippers who go to Sankara Mutts to have a glimpse of Sri ChandramouleeSwara Puja or Sreechakra pooja are brahma-jnanis.

These poojas have the function of drawing the interest of the onlookers who may in stages progress from seeking results of prayers to accepting everything as Iswara prasada and later on to be indifferent to any form of prasada even from Iswara and to steadily progress to the state of realisation of Brahman.

There may be others who have evolved without going through these motions or who have adopted a different method but that does not belittle the value of these poojas or prayers or worships.

That various persons are in various stages of progress can be known from reading of this thread itself where some take the help of prayers to seek something from God, to some who want to pray to God as a thanks for having bestowed bounties on them, to some who want mere blessings and nothing more and those who just want to pray not even expecting blessings or acknowledgements.
 
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The majority, if not the whole, of humanity has by now been so effectively mentally (psychologically) conditioned by religions, gurus, godmen and godwomen, etc., about prayer and eulogisation of gods of various assorted types, that it is no use starting such discussions.

In a thread which has contributions from those who believe in an entity called God and in a forum where one religious practice is commonly discussed, it is indeed appealing to sound different.

The word "begging" which is the hash tag of this thread has nothing to do with any religion and does not show any conditioning of the word. In fact the UTMOST use of this word is in absolute secular settings of Law Courts where the words like "I beg of You" "I beseech your Honour" "I may be condoned" "My appeal" etc. are more the norm rather than the exception and many members of the legal fraternity are avowed atheists and agnostics.
 


The majority, if not the whole, of humanity has by now been so effectively mentally (psychologically) conditioned by religions, gurus, godmen and godwomen, etc., about prayer and eulogisation of gods of various assorted types, that it is no use starting such discussions.

To understand about prayers, one must understand the truth. Here even a personality like AdiShankara appears to have failed miserably because the Shankara Mutts like Sringeri, Kanchi, etc., themselves do not follow advaita but try to pass on a culture of idol worship, prayers to gods, etc. Until one starts understanding the concept of Brahman and Jagat and the Adhyaasa which makes this jagat look real for us, there is no escape from the routine of gods, deities, worship, prayer and praises of gods, etc.; these are all part of this samsaara and help in sustaining it.

None of the vedas advocate prayers for favors. None of the puranas also advocate prayers for favors. Primitive Hinduism consisted of nature worship such as worshipping storm gods and other natural elements.

Humans started praying as a way of passing on their burdens to some unseen, unknown being. Godmen and godwomen exploited the gullible and started materializing watches (only certain inexpensive brands at that) and sweets by sleight of hand (in the mold of magicians). The masses fell for the tricks and started 'praying' for miracles.

When they say a place has strong 'vibrations', nobody knows what exactly 'vibrates' at that spot. Yet people keep praying for favors to some unseen being residing within a stone idol. This includes all religions, even those which disavow idol worship.
 
None of the vedas advocate prayers for favors. None of the puranas also advocate prayers for favors. Primitive Hinduism consisted of nature worship such as worshipping storm gods and other natural elements.
< snipped >

Dear Ashwin,

To the best of my knowledge, the statements cited above are not factual. The very first rik, viz., agnimīḍe purohitaṃ, uses the verb īḍe which may be loosely translated as "we praise". Praises and requests are seen throughout the three vedas. Puranas are full of the modes of worship of various kinds and the benefits which such poojas & prayers will bring in to a worshipper.

I would request you to check your data and let me know if my view is incorrect.


 


Dear Ashwin,

To the best of my knowledge, the statements cited above are not factual. The very first rik, viz., agnimīḍe purohitaṃ, uses the verb īḍe which may be loosely translated as "we praise". Praises and requests are seen throughout the three vedas. Puranas are full of the modes of worship of various kinds and the benefits which such poojas & prayers will bring in to a worshipper.

I would request you to check your data and let me know if my view is incorrect.



Your view is not incorrect. I am reading the Devi Bhagavatam, Siva Mahapurana, and other scriptures. The Devi Bhagavatam talks a lot about ethics and punishment for transgressors. The Siva Purana is basically a collection of stories, as is the Ganesa Purana.

The Rig Veda refers to a god called Mitra, the origins are lost in antiquity and twisted in today's world. There are are also deities such as Dyu, Varuna and so on (these deities are also common to Zoroastrianism). All are deities of natural events. None of these scriptures ask of a person to beseech for favors. They rather urge a person to be morally upright so he's 'protected' from harm. People do twist the scriptures from time to time to reflect the flavor of the month, so to say. Favors are considered part of one's karma.
 
None of the vedas advocate prayers for favors. None of the puranas also advocate prayers for favors. Primitive Hinduism consisted of nature worship such as worshipping storm gods and other natural elements.

Humans started praying as a way of passing on their burdens to some unseen, unknown being. Godmen and godwomen exploited the gullible and started materializing watches (only certain inexpensive brands at that) and sweets by sleight of hand (in the mold of magicians). The masses fell for the tricks and started 'praying' for miracles.

When they say a place has strong 'vibrations', nobody knows what exactly 'vibrates' at that spot. Yet people keep praying for favors to some unseen being residing within a stone idol. This includes all religions, even those which disavow idol worship.
ash
atlast I found a post,which appealed to me. others could not enter my large head.thanks
 
"Why pray? What is the point of prayer when the Advaita Brahman is everything. On the outset I am a believer in Advaitin Brahman and full faith in Karma theory.

There are two types of prayers (I am talking of Bhakti).
1. Is begging to get some favors from God.
2. Praising God to get some brownie points (As if Brahman is a Royalty that will throw some crumbs).

I assume Lord Shiva meditating on Brahman is not same as Prayer.


When I go to Bhajan, and listen to the lyrics I feel very uncomfortable. It does not match with my philosophy. Similarly when I go to puja's and understand the meaning of the verses, I feel uncomfortable. I almost hate to go to Satya Narayan puja, and suffer through the Katha which seems so hollow to me. I life a social life so have to endure it even if it bothers me personally.

We visit Temple almost every week, having been associated with my local Temple. I also visit Temples all over the world, but of late I have become more of a tourist than a devotee.

Kabir Das says:
paahan pooje hari miley to mai poojun pahaad
taatein chakki bhali jo pees khaaye sansar


translation :
if praying to an idol (stone) leads to God then I will pray to a mountain
better than that is a stone flour mill
which feeds the world grinding grain


Similarly Rahim Das says:

"Rahiman yachakta gahe,bade chot hoye jaat.Narayan ko he bhayo,bawan angul gaat."
Meaning that one becomes very small (in status) when asking something from someone.

Remember , your success depends on the inward state of your mind. Yes, I agree that most of us want to have riches, healthy lives, nice children and prosperous future. But if we always approached God with a begging attitude then we are treating Him as our bearer to supply the things required by us at once. This is no devotion to God but devotion to our own selfish desires.



All religions including Hindu religion only cater to the security/insecurity needs & desires of its followers.
This includes all forms of rituals of every religion including Hinduism.

Pursuit of Security (Artha) and desires (Kama) constrained by Dharma are indeed valid pursuits and does not contradict any Vedantic teaching.

However Vedanta only begins for someone who has matured beyond the above two pursuits. Therefore it is not valid in my view to bring Vedanta into religious practices of its followers who may be at another phase of learning and growth.

Mutts largely cater to the needs of people who are in the ritual phase.

In fact anyone desiring to be student of Vedanta cannot pass judgement of pursuits of Artha and Kama of others (provided they are not done in an adharmic manner).

The concept of Prayer or worshiping Isvara in a form like a deity is not contradicted by Vedas or Vedanta. The only thing that happens is that concept of Isvara matures with more learning.

There are prayers attributed to Adi Shankara. It is immaterial whether it was created by someone else or not. Those slokas do not contradict any of the Advita teaching for those that truly understand what the teaching is about.

When a child is young in some household one is taught about the God coming and poking your eyes etc. (உம்மாச்சி கண்ணை குத்திடும்).

Some of these ideas are carried forward in adult life by some when they undertake special forms of worship like reciting stories in Sathyanarayana Pujas !

Some people may or may not grow out of these for other forms pursuits. The world is large and can accommodate all forms of worship and there is no need to pass judgement.


The vedic teaching did not support or prohibit anthropomorphic Isvara (which is why there are many atheists during Vedic time could still support Vedas)

Anyone that believes in Karma model has to know that prayer - which is action of the mind done with free will - is also an act of Karma and will have consequences which may or may not be what the devotee asked for.

So let those that pray continue.

There are actually scientific studies by scientists (and not some religious nuts) that claims that mass thinking by many beings can impact the environment. There is one person who claims to have installed random number generator at many locations around the world in labs. There are statistical tests to verify the degree of randomness from the list of generated numbers. During special occasions (New year, inauguration of Obama Presidency) there were sharp deviations from randomness of the numbers generated. There are many such experiments by other serious scientists. Therefore until there is more data it is not possible to conclude that mass action (including prayer which is mental action) has no impact on the environment.

In the mean time the best approach is to live and let live - let us equally respect those that want to pray or not pray provided they do not cause harm to others.
 

VR Mam, please excuse me for chuttifying this post from your thread ‘Think or Sink’.

I think it is more appropriate to be posted in this thread too.

10 ways praying actually benefits your health!


A study conducted by Dr. Andrew Newberg, Department of Psychiatry at University of Pennsylvania, found that praying can actually boost the level of dopamine or the ‘happy hormone’ in your brain, making you happier and more peaceful.

Read more:
http://in.lifestyle.yahoo.com/10-ways-praying-actually-benefits-045323469.html

Since it is a good thing let us pray for our good health.


Cheers

P.S. VR Mam, ThankQ
 
ash
atlast I found a post,which appealed to me. others could not enter my large head.thanks

Krish,

Try and visit Bali or Sulawesi when you can (I don't think Indians need prior visas to enter Indonesia), you'll witness Hinduism as it is meant to be. Or you might also visit villages in and around Manali in Himachal to experience early Hinduism. No Brahman Batman for these simple folk.
 


A study conducted by Dr. Andrew Newberg, Department of Psychiatry at University of Pennsylvania, found that praying can actually boost the level of dopamine or the ‘happy hormone’ in your brain, making you happier and more peaceful.



Dear Sir,

The take home point for the day is DOPAMINE.

Dopamine levels in the body increase during exercise and sexual intercourse too.

So one can choose a whole range of activities to boost Dopamine levels.

At the end of the day some of us seek the Truth..the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth and that is something that prayers can never actually let us know...what are we praying for? what do we really want?

When we do not want anything anymore..not even wanting to know what Truth is all about that is the day we realize that prayer itself was an illusion all along and not actually even required.

Its the Dopamine release of prayer that actually makes us fail the Dope test of life.
 
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