prasad1
Active member
Food. Stop feeding them, they will ditch you in a minute. Survival is the strongest urge for all living things. All other emotions in animals are created by human beings.
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Why do we worship God when we know Karma ‘s effect can not be changed ?
- Thread starter Padmanabhan Janakiraman
- Start date
GNANA SUNYAM
Active member
"Sarvadharman parithyajya...." is the Law of Grace. Compare and contrast this with the Law of Karma.
Law of Grace apparently overrides, supercedes, annuls the consequences, repurcussions of karma.
'Sarvadharman parityajya..." interprets "abandon all dharmas..". Sounds self-contradictory, conflicting, apparently merits disputing, debating.
Chinmayananda, at the end of a long lecture on this verse, concludes by saying, 'shedding your ego'.
The abrahamic faith puts it in a different verbatim, 'deny yourself...'.
In my humble opinion, seeking the truth, the brahman, does not begin from us. The journey is not ours but of His, of the brahman, of the one and only true almighty, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient one.
It is not 'I' who seeks the Truth. It is He who is Truth Himself seeking me. It is not 'I' who finds the Truth. It is He who is Truth Himself finding me, the lost soul. I am lost and mired in this world, in this illusion, in the flesh. It is He who is Truth Himself who searches for me and finds me. It is all about Him and not about me. It is He who is Truth Himself who sets me free from the untruth, from darkness, from bondage and leads me to the Truth, to the True Light, to freedom from bondage.
It is not some 'ism' or 'ity' that sets me free. 'ism's and 'ity's only create war and division. Pushes men only to darkness, pride, arrogance, conceit, selfishness. They have miserably failed. They have no vision or mission towards eternity. They are confined. None of them are Universal.
It is not my karma. It is all His Grace. All credit goes only to Him.
I don't deserve His Grace yet He is gracious upon me. That is Grace.
My karma, my righteousness is of nil value before His Grace.
In all circumstance thank Him. Keep doing good karma and leave the reward to Him. He knows how to reward, when to reward, whom to reward etc.
GNANA SUNYAM
Active member
Quoting from abrahamic faith:
I was hungry, you fed me.
I was naked, you clothed me.
I was in prison, you visited me.
I was a stranger, you invited me.
.......
Whenever you did all this to the least of your brethren, you did it unto Me.
I was hungry, you fed me.
I was naked, you clothed me.
I was in prison, you visited me.
I was a stranger, you invited me.
.......
Whenever you did all this to the least of your brethren, you did it unto Me.
renuka
Well-known member
No..animals can be loyal.
Its only humans that ditch us.
Detachment is moving your 'self' to the witness of your mind( manas-sAksi)/spectator in you and not the player in you. That is vairagya. That is jnana. Bhakti is the path to this jnana or vairagya.
If your self is aligning with witness of your mind inside, you will be the spectator of everything including your thoughts and actions, in a detached way like a spectator. You will introspect. If your self is aligned with your mind, you will feel all the woes of the player.
Mind will always be sensitive as it controls indriyas. There's no practical way to become a living jadam. The only way is to practice to be the witness. If one uses devotion or bhakti to develop it, that's sattvic bhakti.
renuka
Well-known member
Agreed..but at some point the concept of Sattva Bhakti too would be dropped in the actual Sakshi state( witness)
That is one goes beyond the three gunas and is a witness to everything.
Hence its " Sarvadhee saakshi bhootam,Bhaava teetam triguna raheetam.
GNANA SUNYAM
Active member
Can't disagree more. The above is a copy-paste from a paperback of one philosopher who miserably failed in his mission.
'moving your self..' that is attachment again.
Un-self. That is detachment.
The need to worship and submit to God is primarily that then we will be offering all are actions to God and attachment goes away.
sravna
Well-known member
When one is fully detached there is no mind. It becomes fully spiritual and becomes one with the soul. The Atman emerges. The need for a body is also obviated. The point is as long the mind body duo exist you have not reached full detachment but they are the ones that take you towards that goal.
No Idea about any philosopher.
Attachment or bandham is attaching your self to the mind. Detachment is attaching it to the witness in your self. In that state you will develop a friendly feeling even towards sworn enemy. You will do things without kama, krodha, bhaya. Even if you have to fight a war and pluck the head, you will do it without any anger or hate, but just as an unavoidable duty.
One who reaches that state has kAmAkshi kAdAksham. You should introspect if you are having these qualities. If you don't have, then you should immerse yourself in more bhakti to kAmAksi. You have to immerse yourself more and more till the time you reach these qualities, which means you have the grace of kAmAksi.
This is from mahAperiyava's speech.
prasad1
Active member
While the main purpose of prayer may be to help others, it never demonstrably does that. Prayers benefit only those believers who say or hear them. Prayer gives them comfort. It lets them think they have some control over a situation that may be out of their hands. It’s the last resort of people who have run out of ideas, and the first resort of people who never bothered to think about how they could fix the problem at hand.
This is not harmless. There’s a very real downside to praying. It lulls believers into a false sense of accomplishment. We cannot solve our problems – much less the world’s – through prayer. We often see people with good intentions praying for victims in the wake of a tragedy, but prayer is useless without action, and those actions make the prayers irrelevant. To paraphrase the great Robert Green Ingersoll, hands that help are far better than lips that pray.
I have no problem with 'prayer' as silent self-reflection. The risk is to think someone else is hearing your thoughts and acting on them.
I have no problem with “prayer” as an act of meditation. Many atheists can tell you the benefit of silent self-reflection. The delusion occurs when you think someone else is hearing your thoughts and acting on them.
When it comes down to it, prayer is illogical, even in religious terms. If God has a plan, why try to thwart it? If God can be swayed by prayers, what kind of God would allow the horrors we see in the world? And if two devout believers pray for different things, how does God choose the winner? (I'm sure the San Antonio Spurs would love to know the answer to that.)
Prayer is nothing but a powerful placebo. We’d all be better off accepting that.
www.nytimes.com
This is not harmless. There’s a very real downside to praying. It lulls believers into a false sense of accomplishment. We cannot solve our problems – much less the world’s – through prayer. We often see people with good intentions praying for victims in the wake of a tragedy, but prayer is useless without action, and those actions make the prayers irrelevant. To paraphrase the great Robert Green Ingersoll, hands that help are far better than lips that pray.
I have no problem with 'prayer' as silent self-reflection. The risk is to think someone else is hearing your thoughts and acting on them.
I have no problem with “prayer” as an act of meditation. Many atheists can tell you the benefit of silent self-reflection. The delusion occurs when you think someone else is hearing your thoughts and acting on them.
When it comes down to it, prayer is illogical, even in religious terms. If God has a plan, why try to thwart it? If God can be swayed by prayers, what kind of God would allow the horrors we see in the world? And if two devout believers pray for different things, how does God choose the winner? (I'm sure the San Antonio Spurs would love to know the answer to that.)
Prayer is nothing but a powerful placebo. We’d all be better off accepting that.
Prayer Is Useless, and Has a Downside - NYTimes.com
www.nytimes.com
prasad1
Active member
If people are praying for calm and stretchy fingers, yes, prayer works.
If people are praying for anything else? Prayer does not work, just like dancing to cause rain does not work (even if it is good cardio), or like how chanting to cast a fireball does not work (even if it exercises the jaw).
Prayer and meditation are not the same thing for most of the world, and people praying for something are doing it with a specific goal in mind: heal my injuries, smite my foes, let me win the lottery, stop the rain, and so on. Prayer does not accomplish any of these things.
When determining if something works, you look at the intended result and the actual result. If the two do not align, the action does not work. This is not theology, philosophy, or science - this is semantics.
If people are praying for anything else? Prayer does not work, just like dancing to cause rain does not work (even if it is good cardio), or like how chanting to cast a fireball does not work (even if it exercises the jaw).
Prayer and meditation are not the same thing for most of the world, and people praying for something are doing it with a specific goal in mind: heal my injuries, smite my foes, let me win the lottery, stop the rain, and so on. Prayer does not accomplish any of these things.
When determining if something works, you look at the intended result and the actual result. If the two do not align, the action does not work. This is not theology, philosophy, or science - this is semantics.
sravna
Well-known member
The problem with atheists is that even though they don't believe in God they intrude into the world of theists and try to force atheists on their beliefs and gratuitously try to set right their rules and practice. This is hilarious. When you think the thoughts of others do not merit consideration why try to find fault with them and setting right the rules for them. They are not intruding into your belief system. Why this insecurity of the atheists? Do they heart of hearts believe God exists and will punish them for all their misdeeds? Think about it.
sravna
Well-known member
The rules of God are both fixed and flexible. Fixed because eventually the destination has to be reached and broad and main objectives to be met. But lower level of existence which is human existence is also taken into consideration and scope given for the humans to revisit their flawed logic and correct them. Prayers offer a means to do that. To repent , to request etc etc. It is only to understand the changing state of mind and help them to align with moral norms.
Prayer is not technology to see the effects immediately and physically. It has to do with thd evolution of mind and it's maturity. What one who prays for may not fructify at the physical level but it shows that one who prays at some level is willing to shed his ego and not consider himself above everything. It shows some maturity of mind. He is evolving. That itself is a significant result at a spiritual level
Prayer is not technology to see the effects immediately and physically. It has to do with thd evolution of mind and it's maturity. What one who prays for may not fructify at the physical level but it shows that one who prays at some level is willing to shed his ego and not consider himself above everything. It shows some maturity of mind. He is evolving. That itself is a significant result at a spiritual level
renuka
Well-known member
Actually we should not have a problem with anything.While the main purpose of prayer may be to help others, it never demonstrably does that. Prayers benefit only those believers who say or hear them. Prayer gives them comfort. It lets them think they have some control over a situation that may be out of their hands. It’s the last resort of people who have run out of ideas, and the first resort of people who never bothered to think about how they could fix the problem at hand.
This is not harmless. There’s a very real downside to praying. It lulls believers into a false sense of accomplishment. We cannot solve our problems – much less the world’s – through prayer. We often see people with good intentions praying for victims in the wake of a tragedy, but prayer is useless without action, and those actions make the prayers irrelevant. To paraphrase the great Robert Green Ingersoll, hands that help are far better than lips that pray.
I have no problem with 'prayer' as silent self-reflection. The risk is to think someone else is hearing your thoughts and acting on them.
I have no problem with “prayer” as an act of meditation. Many atheists can tell you the benefit of silent self-reflection. The delusion occurs when you think someone else is hearing your thoughts and acting on them.
When it comes down to it, prayer is illogical, even in religious terms. If God has a plan, why try to thwart it? If God can be swayed by prayers, what kind of God would allow the horrors we see in the world? And if two devout believers pray for different things, how does God choose the winner? (I'm sure the San Antonio Spurs would love to know the answer to that.)
Prayer is nothing but a powerful placebo. We’d all be better off accepting that.
Prayer Is Useless, and Has a Downside - NYTimes.com
Whether prayer is a placebo or anti oxidant or anti depressant..it should not matter to us.
Whether prayer is logical or illogical it should not matter.
There is no risk of thinking someone is hearing our thoughts.
Everything in this world is frequency...everything is bound to travel somewhere..including thought waves.
Someday we might be able to decode thought waves.
If 2 devout devotees pray for their country to win a match..for eg an Indian and Pakistani praying for a cricket match.
Who will God answer?
God wont answer anyone here but the person praying for Him to help momentarily thought of God.
Whether the prayer is a selfish one it doesnt matter.
At least he thought of God.
Even Krishna had said that Sishupala was constantly focusing of Him though Shishupala's thoughts were negative.
Honestly we dont really know how prayer connects to God.
So we shouldnt have any issue with how another person connects to God.
If you listen to that speech of mahAperiyavA, his definition of bhakti does not exclude our actions. Rather he is asking us to invoke bhakti to help in doing our actions without kAma, Krodha, BHaya. So that bhakti by definition cannot lull action.
Devotion or bhakti is asking 'him' or 'her' to be inside us and guide us in our actions. 'bhakta' means distributed, divided, form part of, become attached to etc etc. The idea is we ask that form to be attached or be part of our self to guide us in our actions. So bhakti invokes an external virtual guide to our actions, to give us the ability to do actions without kAma, Krodha and bhaya. That's exactly what mahAperiyavA is saying
But bhakti is different from praarthanai (prayer) and vazhipaadu (worship).
Prayer or praarthanai is by definition rajasik (just an attachment to a figure or form or concept) or tamasik (asking for something or thanking for something). Vazhipadu is the ritual associated with prayers.
This is just my understanding.
Dr R A Raaj
New member
Yes, I've to agree with many here that to worship any God, is to dance with the rhythm of Karma, a persistent waltz through our trials and triumphs - it's a plea for clarity, guidance, wisdom, & the strength to endure. Faith does move mountains.
renuka
Well-known member
I would like to ask a question.
Is asking for something or thanking for something Tamasik? Giving thanks is seen in festivals like Ponggal where one thanks the Sun and nature.
Yagnas too done in the mode of Sattva are to please the Devas though devoid of attachment.
The Gita states mode of Tamas as below:
yajante sattvika devan yaksha-rakshansi rajasah
pretan bhuta-ganansh chanye yajante tamasa janah
pretan bhuta-ganansh chanye yajante tamasa janah
Translation
BG 17.4: Those in the mode of goodness worship the celestial gods; those in the mode of passion worship the yakṣhas and rākṣhasas; those in the mode of ignorance worship ghosts and spirits.
BG 17.13: Sacrifice devoid of faith and contrary to the injunctions of the scriptures, in which no food is offered, no mantras chanted, and no donation made, is to be considered in the mode of ignorance.
vidhi-hinam asrishtannam mantra-hinam adakshinam
shraddha-virahitam yajnam tamasam parichakshate
shraddha-virahitam yajnam tamasam parichakshate
Translation
BG 17.13: Sacrifice devoid of faith and contrary to the injunctions of the scriptures, in which no food is offered, no mantras chanted, and no donation made, is to be considered in the mode of ignorance.GNANA SUNYAM
Active member
Very very subjective. Delusion. Duplicated statements, mechanical repetition, emanating from a strongly conditioned and programmed mind passionately ATTACHED to some philosophical thought which serves nil purpose but only feigning virtue.
GNANA SUNYAM
Active member
"What things so ever you desire, when you pray, believe that you receive them and you shall have them"
- quote from an brhmic faith.
In reality, we have witnessed more of un-answered prayers than answered ones. Explanations galore. Yet prayers have only multiplied. Prayers cannot be discounted.
The testimonies of answered prayers are the ones motivating and inspiring more and more prayers. This cannot be denied. There are live, true testimonies of incredible results witnessed following prayers.
Numerous books have been authored providing techniques for appropriating answers for prayers.
Brhmic faith prescribes prayer for a distressed soul.
What is the motive behind our prayers, what result is expected, what effect is purposed are the questions need to be asked.
Ill-will, selfish prayers have never been answered. Absolutely nil testimonies on that.
If the purpose is noble, probability of positive answers are more.
- quote from an brhmic faith.
In reality, we have witnessed more of un-answered prayers than answered ones. Explanations galore. Yet prayers have only multiplied. Prayers cannot be discounted.
The testimonies of answered prayers are the ones motivating and inspiring more and more prayers. This cannot be denied. There are live, true testimonies of incredible results witnessed following prayers.
Numerous books have been authored providing techniques for appropriating answers for prayers.
Brhmic faith prescribes prayer for a distressed soul.
What is the motive behind our prayers, what result is expected, what effect is purposed are the questions need to be asked.
Ill-will, selfish prayers have never been answered. Absolutely nil testimonies on that.
If the purpose is noble, probability of positive answers are more.
sravna
Well-known member
We are underestimating the role of faith a lot. Thats the reason scientific knowledge is at incipience. I am surprised though not in a deeper sense how people can come to the conclusion that what is not seen by senses or instruments does not exist. But i think as i said a deeper reflection i am able to see them as Gods design to create a dichotomy that serves the grand objective of steering His intelligent play in a purposeful way.
Dr R A Raaj
New member
I appreciate skeptics; proving anything to them is unnecessary, as they inhabit their own worldview, cloaked in scientific or logical reasoning. Belief in the metaphysical is a deeply personal journey. Hinduism emphasizes coexistence and avoids imposing beliefs on others. Neither side can definitively prove their perspective; it's an internal experience. Those who possess this understanding should follow their path; those who don't, should adhere to their beliefs. The goal is to find solace in facing life's obstacles, understanding that only death is certain in this world of illusion (Maya).
I didn't understand much of this. But if you are like 'attributing' these qualities to the thoughts I shared, maybe. As long as we know (as far as we could) that our thoughts and actions are without kama, krodha, bhaya, asuya etc and we keep learning and evolving/changing, it's fine.
Probably I am here now. Maybe I will be somewhere else or I may come to the place you are in, in a future. Just enjoy the journey.
Assume Pongal is for thanking the sun, is it not ignorant to thank the Sun.? Sun is not going to receive our thanks, nor Sun is working for individuals or human race or even planet Earth. Sun illuminates so many planets, yet only in Earth living beings exist.
Rather pongal is about learning from the Sun. How letting go (of energy in this case) leads to creation of knowledge and wealth. How overcoming potential barriers help us create newer things. How cycles (rta) of nature create a dharma (laws) for us to live etc. But I understand in common parlance it is reduced to thanking the Sun.
On BG17.4 Krishna says sattviks worship devas (who inspire knowledge), rajasiks worship yaksha/raksas (who inspire passion) and tamasiks worship preta-bhuta-ganas (who inspire material richness). Here yajante means worship.
On BG17.11, 12,13 he talks about Yajna. IN 17.11 Yajna done without any expectation of result (dont ask for anything) is sattvik, in 17.12 those done for dambha/pride/passion is rajasik, in 17.13 those done without rules, without distributing food, without the mantras, without dedication is tamasic.
sravna
Well-known member
Karmas operations are nuanced. It never punishes you when you really dont deserve in spite of accumulating bad karma. You cannot also escape its iron grip if you really deserve punishment. You may do all acrobatics but you will be trapped by your own grandiose self destructive foolishness. Karma knows how to take you along that path. In summary it is the ultimate in the art and science of justice .
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