Why is there no 'separation of temples and state' in India?

[Jaykay767]

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Lol.

Why should other Hindus adopt TB culture.

It would be as alien to me as adopting any other culture.

Religion and culture need not always go hand in hand.
No offense but I find TB culture adhering too much to rituals and pitr karyam..something I dont connect at all.

If one isnt born in a culture one will not want to adopt it.

Another is the food..i am veg no.doubt but very expiremental in food and would veg from from any country..i cook.a tribal style young bamboo shoots..( my mum calls me jungle woman!LOL)

Next..i dont really enjoy Carnatic music though I like one or two western note Thyagaraja kirtis but no way I can sit tru a Carnatic music concert.

I can never follow anything of TB culture..and i dont think most of other Hindus would want to follow it too.

Hi Renukaji,

Let me try and convince you otherwise.

1. Do you consider the Kshatriyas Shivan, Raman, Narayana, Krishna, etc.. as TB gods, Brahmin Gods, or Hindu Gods ??

2. Do you consider Ramayana and Mahabhartam as TB or Brahmin or Hindu texts ?? Remember Ramayanam is written by Valmiki who is a non Brahmin. Most of the characters in these texts are non Brahmins.

3. Do you consider chanting Ramayana slokams a TB or Brahmin or Hindu culture ??

4. Do you consider Bhaàtanatyam and Carnatic music a TB or Brahmin or Tamil culture ?? Read Nairhrus posts on how the other castes contribute to this. Remember Brahmins were never singers and dancers in history.

5. Sanskrit is the language of the gods. Hindus, Jains, Bhuddists wrote in Sanskrit and codified their scripture. Do you consider Sanskrit language as TB or Brahmin or Hindu culture ??

6. TB marriage was first described in silapathirkaram a Tamil sangam text. It elaborates the divine marragie of kovalan and kannagi. Do you consider the sangam text as TB text of Tamil text ??

7. Many of the Nayanars and aalwars are not Brahmins. Do you consider thier texts part of TB culture or Tamil culture ?

My question is - why should you and ther Hindus not follow TB culture which originates from the broader Hindu culture ?? It so happened only TBs are practicing today. But that does not mean it doesn't belong to you !!

This is what I said earlier, in the anti Brahmin sentiment, don't lose your own culture and traditions.

JK.

 

[Jaykay767]

Carnatic music takes a while to get into. If you listen to it for say 10 mins every day, you will get hooked to it. In 6 months, you will be listening to it regularly as a daily ritual.

 

[renuka]

My answers in Blue.

Hi Renukaji,

Let me try and convince you otherwise.

1. Do you consider the Kshatriyas Shivan, Raman, Narayana, Krishna, etc.. as TB gods, Brahmin Gods, or Hindu Gods ??

God is beyond Varnashrama.
Avatars took birth as humans but they too are not affected by human Varnashrama.
For me its totally haram to classify God as Brahmin or Non Brahmin.

2. Do you consider Ramayana and Mahabhartam as TB or Brahmin or Hindu texts ?? Remember Ramayanam is written by Valmiki who is a non Brahmin. Most of the characters in these texts are non Brahmins.

I consider it Ithihas.
There is no religion or caste to Itihas.

3. Do you consider chanting Ramayana slokams a TB or Brahmin or Hindu culture ??

Again...its Itihas..it has no caste or culture or religion.

4. Do you consider Bhaàtanatyam and Carnatic music a TB or Brahmin or Tamil culture ?? Read Nairhrus posts on how the other castes contribute to this. Remember Brahmins were never singers and dancers in history.

Bharatanatyam means Bha(Bhava)...Ra(Raga)..Ta(Tala) & Natyam....it means a dance combines these.
Most classical dances of other countries too function on the Bha+Ra+Ta format..it has to emote besides being technical. For me its a dance.

5. Sanskrit is the language of the gods. Hindus, Jains, Bhuddists wrote in Sanskrit and codified their scripture. Do you consider Sanskrit language as TB or Brahmin or Hindu culture ??

Sanskrit is a language that has no Sanskrit race.
Every other language has a race that speaks it except Sanskrit.
Arabs claim Arabic is the language of heaven..Hindus say its Sanskrit..either way I know both..so no problems for me.

6. TB marriage was first described in silapathirkaram a Tamil sangam text. It elaborates the divine marragie of kovalan and kannagi. Do you consider the sangam text as TB text of Tamil text ??
The only Sangam I know is the Raj Kapoor, Vyjantimala starer ..seriously I dont know what Sangam text is.
Kovalan sure I know....the guy who was gunning Madhavi and gets killed by the King wrongly accused of stealing the Queens anklet and Kannagi the arsonist who sets the town on fire!LOL

7. Many of the Nayanars and aalwars are not Brahmins. Do you consider thier texts part of TB culture or Tamil culture ?
Alwars..I only know Thirumangai and the Buddha gold statue episode.
So sorry...I dont know what to say of that.
Again......I dont know about Alwars..

My question is - why should you and ther Hindus not follow TB culture which originates from the broader Hindu culture ?? It so happened only TBs are practicing today. But that does not mean it doesn't belong to you !!

Sorry...I don't consider TB culture my culture...I answered so differently from you.

This is what I said earlier, in the anti Brahmin sentiment, don't lose your own culture and traditions.

JK.

Its not about being anti Brahmin.
Its about each person's law of being..you cant make a lion be a sheep or a sheep be a lion.
Each community was made be God for specific reasons to be themselves
I am going to quote the Qura'n here on this.

Chapter (5) sūrat l-māidah (The Table spread with Food)

And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ

 

[renuka]

Carnatic music takes a while to get into. If you listen to it for say 10 mins every day, you will get hooked to it. In 6 months, you will be listening to it regularly as a daily ritual.

Nope... I do not like it.
It makes me sleep.

Give me Bhangra and Dappankuttu anytime!

 

[prasad1]

My answers in Blue.

????????????
Posted too soon, can not delete.

 

[renuka]

Dear Jaykay ji...I am re pasting my answer cos Prasad ji is not able to read it..
My answers in Blue.

Hi Renukaji,

Let me try and convince you otherwise.

1. Do you consider the Kshatriyas Shivan, Raman, Narayana, Krishna, etc.. as TB gods, Brahmin Gods, or Hindu Gods ??

God is beyond Varnashrama.
Avatars took birth as humans but they too are not affected by human Varnashrama.
For me its totally haram to classify God as Brahmin or Non Brahmin.

2. Do you consider Ramayana and Mahabhartam as TB or Brahmin or Hindu texts ?? Remember Ramayanam is written by Valmiki who is a non Brahmin. Most of the characters in these texts are non Brahmins.

I consider it Ithihas.
There is no religion or caste to Itihas.

3. Do you consider chanting Ramayana slokams a TB or Brahmin or Hindu culture ??

Again...its Itihas..it has no caste or culture or religion.

4. Do you consider Bhaàtanatyam and Carnatic music a TB or Brahmin or Tamil culture ?? Read Nairhrus posts on how the other castes contribute to this. Remember Brahmins were never singers and dancers in history.

Bharatanatyam means Bha(Bhava)...Ra(Raga)..Ta(Tala) & Natyam....it means a dance combines these.
Most classical dances of other countries too function on the Bha+Ra+Ta format..it has to emote besides being technical. For me its a dance.

5. Sanskrit is the language of the gods. Hindus, Jains, Bhuddists wrote in Sanskrit and codified their scripture. Do you consider Sanskrit language as TB or Brahmin or Hindu culture ??

Sanskrit is a language that has no Sanskrit race.
Every other language has a race that speaks it except Sanskrit.
Arabs claim Arabic is the language of heaven..Hindus say its Sanskrit..either way I know both..so no problems for me.

6. TB marriage was first described in silapathirkaram a Tamil sangam text. It elaborates the divine marragie of kovalan and kannagi. Do you consider the sangam text as TB text of Tamil text ??
The only Sangam I know is the Raj Kapoor, Vyjantimala starer ..seriously I dont know what Sangam text is.
Kovalan sure I know....the guy who was gunning Madhavi and gets killed by the King wrongly accused of stealing the Queens anklet and Kannagi the arsonist who sets the town on fire!LOL

7. Many of the Nayanars and aalwars are not Brahmins. Do you consider thier texts part of TB culture or Tamil culture ?
Alwars..I only know Thirumangai and the Buddha gold statue episode.
So sorry...I dont know what to say of that.
Again......I dont know about Alwars..

My question is - why should you and ther Hindus not follow TB culture which originates from the broader Hindu culture ?? It so happened only TBs are practicing today. But that does not mean it doesn't belong to you !!

Sorry...I don't consider TB culture my culture...I answered so differently from you.

This is what I said earlier, in the anti Brahmin sentiment, don't lose your own culture and traditions.

JK.

Its not about being anti Brahmin.
Its about each person's law of being..you cant make a lion be a sheep or a sheep be a lion.
Each community was made be God for specific reasons to be themselves
I am going to quote the Qura'n here on this.

Chapter (5) sūrat l-māidah (The Table spread with Food)
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ

 

[prasad1]

Every religion borrows from some other religion.
So a "TB" group can borrow from Hinduism.
Lingayats claimed they are a separate group for the worldly (quota) purpose, not religious.
So a "TB" group can borrow Brahmin, Non-Brahmin, Ramayana, Mahabharata, etc.
But still, claim a separate entity from Hinduism.
I am not advocating that we do it.
It was just supporting an idea put forth by another member in post#39.

 

[prasad1]

Do you have any hard facts and figures to substantiate this, like some Government report etc.? Will be
interested in that.



Sure. Let us have some FACTS before we discuss and debate.

:


ZEBRAJI,
Thanks for selectively asking me for supporting facts. As I can do it.
Thank you.

 

[Jaykay767]

Sure, any religion or group can borrow from another and practice it.

The point is, many of these are not exclusive and hence the majority Hindus should adopt them.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

How I wish that someone resourceful amongst the Tamil Brahmins file a suit in the supreme court of India asking for granting TBs the status of followers of a minority religion in India like the Parsees. Yes, our faith and practices are far different from what is followed by the majority of the socalled Hindu religion at least in Tamilnadu.

Vaagmi had mentioned this before too. The sentiment is understandable. After all, several other groups crave for minority status in India. The jains got theirs' recently in the previous UPA regime. The Lingayats, the Ramakrishna mission group, the Sathya Sai group all have fought and/or fighting for minority status in India.

If we follow closely, we can understand that the motivation of all these different groups is that they want to protect their institutions from government interference. Right now, only minorities have this protection.
Therefore the law is the primary distorting feature here. If this law is fixed, then most, if not all, these groups will be happy to stay as Hindus.

As our dear member KRN always reminds me, this is a singular failure of this govt to fix these laws and make the legal status of hindus on par with the other religionists. Of course, the primary minority religions and the secularists will oppose such a law, that grants parity to hindus, tooth and nail. Preserving the special privileges of the minority religions is their goal, which they hide under the garb of opposing hindutva. But if a govt with significant majority in the LS cannot achieve it, then the fault lies with the government.

I also agree that TBs will be doing a disservice to themselves by distancing from other hindus. Even if one concedes that there are lot of differences in TB culture, there are lot of similarities between TB and hindu culture too, the way it is practiced now. Our culture is now an amalgam of TB culture of yore which includes all the nityakarmas and rituals and the bakthi culture which we cannot truly call our exclusive culture (pity it is derided so much in this forum). Even in tamil nadu, despite the several decade rule of dravidianists and their propaganda, the TBs have good relationships with other hindus.

Treating hindus on par with minorities is the way to go. Not fragmenting hindus into several little groups each having their own set of laws and rules.

 

[prasad1]

As our dear member KRN always reminds me, this is a singular failure of this govt to fix these laws and make the legal status of Hindus on par with the other religionists.

There must be a uniform (maybe secular) civil code.

Uniform civil code

is the ongoing point of debate within Indian mandate to replace personal laws based on the scriptures and customs of each major religious community in India with a common set of rules governing every citizen. ... Goa has a common family law, thus being the only Indian state to have a uniform civil code.

Of course, the primary minority religions and the secularists will oppose such a law, that grants parity to hindus, tooth and nail.

Whey would they and on what grounds? Has it been passed by the supermajority?

Preserving the special privileges of the minority religions is their goal, which they hide under the garb of opposing hindutva.

Who are these people who will oppose? And why is the supermajority afraid of that?

But if a govt with significant majority in the LS cannot achieve it, then the fault lies with the government.

Treating hindus on par with minorities is the way to go.

Why not treat all Indian as Indians? Instead of making all Indian a minority (which defies the meaning of the word).
Would that be acceptable to all?
Let us see how many people oppose that Novel idea?
Instead of creating this ME and other conflicts, why can we not work together?

I hate this groupism among members and subtle Islamaphobia, and outright hatred of minorities, and other Hindus who do not wear their religion on their sleeve.

 

[prasad1]

Article 44 of the Directive Principles in the Constitution says the “State shall endeavour to provide for its citizens a uniform civil code (UCC) throughout the territory of India.” The objective of this endeavour should be to address the discrimination against vulnerable groups and harmonise diverse cultural practices. The stand taken by B.R. Ambedkar in the Constituent Assembly debates has survived the years. Dr. Ambedkar had said a UCC is desirable but for the moment should remain voluntary.


Legal experts say that the Supreme Court missed an opportunity to decide on the issue in 2017 when it outlawed triple talaq without addressing the core issue: whether personal law practices should prevail over the fundamental rights of life, dignity and non-discrimination. The Constitution Bench’s judgment was the product of an October 2015 decision of a two-judge Bench of the court to take suo motu cognisance of the discriminatory practices against Muslim women. This Bench pointed out that it had been 30 years since the court, in the Shah Bano case, urged the government to frame a common code to “help in the cause of national integration.”

The Constitution Bench’s judgment came about a year after the Law Commission, in a novel move in October 2016, published a “questionnaire” to test the waters on the UCC. It wanted to see whether the nation was ready for it. The questions included “what measures should be taken to sensitise society to a common code or codification of personal law,” and would the UCC ensure “gender equality.”

What was the government waiting for?



I hate to deviate from the original post, but I am responding to other posts in this thread.
So the government can declare the Voluntary period is over, and impose Article 44 if it chooses.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Asking for equal parity for hindus does not amount to minority hatred. Only people who want to preserve the special treatment of minorities will say so. The proof as they say is in the pudding.

The situation that we have in India did not come up in Vacuum. One has to analyze the various constitutional amendments over the years by different political parties, court cases that led to these amendments, the formation of minority affairs etc to understand it.

In India we have this strange situation where people are okay with bigoted laws but they oppose people who point out that the laws are bigoted.

 

[a-TB]

There is a general filibustering and derailing of this thread that is concerning.

Post 1 was about why Hindu temple management is being interfered with by Indian government on selective basis.

While some diversion from original topic is reasonable, this thread is not about TB or rather anti TB topics. It is NOT about bigoted Hindus.

Wisdom quotes by people of any religion is always welcome but quoting another religious scripture that has nothing to with the topic and it is a form of derailing the thread. It is nice no one went for that bait.

This thread is not about division among TB communities.

It is also not respectful to write irrelevant information either.

If people want to have other topics discussed they are welcome to open separate threads.

Mr KRN and Mr KB did address the issues raised. Let us get back to the topic please.

I would like to request Mr Praveen to close this thread

 

[a-TB]

I could not edit. What I meant to say is that let us stick to the topic of a given thread please and not deviate too much. Hence I requested this thread to be closed.

 

[renuka]

Sure, any religion or group can borrow from another and practice it.

The point is, many of these are not exclusive and hence the majority Hindus should adopt them.

Thats forcing people ..it isnt fair.

If some complain forcing by the sword is unfair..well so is forcing by the pen.
After all the pen is mightier than the sword.

I feel a lot local deities have been absorbed into the Hindu pantheon and to some extent there has been dilution of culture.
Some dilution is inevitable..all cultures are diluted these days.

So the least one can do is not force anyone to adopt what their hearts cant feel.
Its total violence to force someone to adopt something they can never find common grounds.

The human mind is free to choose what they want but not be forced to choose what they dont want.

Its an act of violence and disrespect to take away the mindset of another.

 

[renuka]

A

There is a general filibustering and derailing of this thread that is concerning.

Post 1 was about why Hindu temple management is being interfered with by Indian government on selective basis.

While some diversion from original topic is reasonable, this thread is not about TB or rather anti TB topics. It is NOT about bigoted Hindus.

Wisdom quotes by people of any religion is always welcome but quoting another religious scripture that has nothing to with the topic and it is a form of derailing the thread. It is nice no one went for that bait.

This thread is not about division among TB communities.

It is also not respectful to write irrelevant information either.

If people want to have other topics discussed they are welcome to open separate threads.

Mr KRN and Mr KB did address the issues raised. Let us get back to the topic please.

I would like to request Mr Praveen to close this thread

As usual...

 

[renuka]

Dear Jaykay ji..
If you would like to discuss futher you could start a new thread.
But i have made most of my points clear already.
Cos someone is calling for thread to be closed in Minion duty.

 

[Jaykay767]

Hi Renukaji,
LOL. Jalra as usual on duty - putting Jalra to his leaders even if they don't want !!
I understand and respect your views. I definitely need to work on my arguments, and convincing skills before discussing this with you again -

JK.

 

[Jaykay767]

Thats forcing people ..it isnt fair.

If some complain forcing by the sword is unfair..well so is forcing by the pen.
After all the pen is mightier than the sword.

I feel a lot local deities have been absorbed into the Hindu pantheon and to some extent there has been dilution of culture.
Some dilution is inevitable..all cultures are diluted these days.

So the least one can do is not force anyone to adopt what their hearts cant feel.
Its total violence to force someone to adopt something they can never find common grounds.

The human mind is free to choose what they want but not be forced to choose what they dont want.

Its an act of violence and disrespect to take away the mindset of another.

Hi Renukaji,
Sorry. To clarify, I am not forcing anyone, if my post came across that way, it was unintended. As I said, I will have to come back with better and stronger arguments. LOL.

JK.

 

[ashoktwinn]

For a professed secular country, its wrong on behalf of Govt to control temples. There are instances in Tamilnadu wherein temple funds are swindled by party people.

 

[renuka]

Hi Renukaji,
Sorry. To clarify, I am not forcing anyone, if my post came across that way, it was unintended. As I said, I will have to come back with better and stronger arguments. LOL.

JK.

Take your time.
I like good posts where I am free to respond.

 

[Jaykay767]

Take your time.
I like good posts where I am free to respond.

Hi Renukaji,
Agree , this has to be a separate thread.
To clarify, I am not put off by your strong opposition at all. Just surprised. Radical views are not easy to accept. So I will shortly open a thread on this subject for us to debate this.

JK.

 

[K Bhaskaran]

One of the principles valued in USA is separation of Church and State.
This ensures freedom of religious expression while also not corrupting either a religion of governing of a State.

Now in India there has been Government intrusion into management of Hindu temples.

I never understood why this is allowed to go on.

Now let us not get immature and label anyone raising such issues with terms like Hindutva etc. If you are anti-religion of any kind then best is to stay away from discussion. This is a genuine query I have and legal scholars and others are welcome to share their views

Unlike churches which are controlled by missionaries there is no institutional arrangement to manage temples in India. They have been public properties managed by kings. Hindu religion has several branches and perhaps the difficulty to find a single authority among Hindus to identify for managing the temple properties has necessitated bringing govt control over temple properties. It is high time that religious leaders take the initiative to create a common and credible agency/Trust to manage the temples and approach the governments to take over management of the temples.

 

[renuka]

Hi Renukaji,
Agree , this has to be a separate thread.
To clarify, I am not put off by your strong opposition at all. Just surprised. Radical views are not easy to accept. So I will shortly open a thread on this subject for us to debate this.

JK.

Its not really surprising at all .
I like to view life beyond these man made classification and bodily identification.

Culture is each persons life style.
I dont follow any specific culture.
I do what the #@$ I want and so far results have been good.

So why get myself tied down and put a tag to my mind?
My mind chooses what I can identify with..even though I teach Sanskrit now and comparative religion is my interest..I can safely say 100% my mind does not function like a TB..becos I am not one.

Its better to be honest and function on the plane we can relate too and not force ourselves to adopt a culture we cant relate too..Krishna too said in the Geeta...its better to do ones own Dharma though faulty then to do anothers Dharma though perfectly.

Would it be fair and agreable to you if I were to ask you my mindset and personal culture which keeps changing in phases?

You wont and neither would I force you to be me.

There is no perfect culture..every culture has its good and bad
I am human..i like a speck of each culture in me..so I wont call myself anything.

When I die I go back to 5 elements..I dont carry any identity.