Why Would God Want Us to Praise Him?

[a-TB]

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Sri a-TB sir,

I was a physicist once, so let me explain the way I always think. First, what is Brahman? There are two fold explanations, the existence of such an entity and so, then what is the nature of such an entity.

+++ There have been a few ex-physics members (like Mr tks) and my interactions have been productive and positive. I can already see a lucid style to your responses.

The existence of Brahman is very obvious. If one accepts science, the validity of ‘big bang’ theory, for it to have happened, creating both space and time, there must have been a cause. To me that cause is called Brahman. Even if one does not accept the ‘big bang’, one still needs to explain the existence of the physical universe we see and again, one needs to explain the cause.

+++ 'Happened' is in time and so can one really talk about 'before' big bang which means time is already present? Similarly the idea of cause assumes time and time itself is not created. So the language and our model of cause -effect will fail in trying to reason that there must be a cause. The root cause if we can even accept a cause being Brahman, has to be causeless cause. Why not say the laws of nature are all causeless cause and assign a single entity that is not descripable as the that causeless entity.

Assuming big bang theory is ultimate though in Science new theories are possible, no one can say what caused it because the time element itself is not created by the big bang, So the existence of Brahman is not obvious.

Physical universe is explained by big bang and no one knows what caused it

So, then what is the nature of such an entity? Here, we can not use science to understand the nature. Because we are the ones that observe with our five senses to collect data, are ourselves part of the system. There is a well known theory that says that one can not understand what is outside an enclosed system, being part of the system. So, we can not perceive the nature of creator with our outwardly turned mind and senses.

+++ This assumes a creator. If it is not an assumption based on our limited data how is this assumption validated?

But, then, as luck would have it, if we turn our focus inwards, through our mind, it is found that, we can indeed ‘know’ that creator. This is the concept of Advaitha.

+++ So you say Advita is a mental concept. Is that right? How can mind come up with a concept of something that is superior to it. You are in a closed system borrowing your statements elsewhere I think. How does the mind know outside the closed system it is in?

But other ‘faiths’ say that there is a God as separate entity outside our universe who is all powerful, most excellent etc. But to ‘know’ that entity one has to wait till the end of time, when based on merits and demerits, one gets either eternal happiness or eternal suffering.

So, for my make up Advaitha makes sense. Not only because I am mentally constituted to like it, but because my genes come from a line of my ancestors who were all Advaithins and we all know how such ancestral thinking and behavior affect as to who we are today.

+++ Is the ultimate truth is based on our likes and dislikes?
Can we really extrapolate assumptions arising from multiplicity like ancestors and project to say the truth which is non-dual?

Secondly, Advaitha claims that one need not wait till the end of time to be in an eternal happy state, you can do it here and now. How? By understanding who we really are, that is permanent, that is universal and timeless. This is Brahman. Now, without going in to details about Maya, Atma, Ishwara, Karma, Dharma etc., to accept this lofty claim, one just needs to look for evidence, whether there is anyone who is believable who claimed to have achieved such a state of bliss. To one’s astonishment, one finds that such people are there, throughout history, to the present time in all cultures.

+++ This I can resonate with the teaching that one can find happiness here and now based on the words of a teacher. But then that kind of happiness cannot be an experience. Because all experiences are limited in time. Claiming that to be timeless is just a belief.

So, if one believes this, one has to take ‘instructions’ from one of those. For me again, because of my make up, it is Ramana Maharishi. Others follow others. I have faith that my guru achieved such a state and so whatever teachings that come out of such a person will not lead me astray.

+++ One of the first book Mr Sangom recommended me was to read about Ramana Maharishi's teaching. I did but could not understand a lot. He did make certain things simple by asking to meditate on 'who am i'. I could not do that for too long. I could see simplicity and profundity in reading those conversations.

This is all I can say. I do not know about the validity or the non validity of any other path. But since I started this mental journey more than a decade ago, I can attest to the fact that I am more and more at peace within myself.

This is a very long post. But I thought we can have a starting point, while answering some of your questions. Thanks.

Thank you. I have provided in-line comments. I am not trying to be argumentative. I examine every sentence to understand and when I see issues there I have raised them above.

 

[a-TB]

The only solution to just BE in the NOW is to become an "idiot".
"Ignorance is bliss" is actually a true statement.

Get a lobotomy operation and be done with the brain and enjoy bliss ? Or pray to get dementia? LOL

 

[renuka]

Get a lobotomy operation and be done with the brain and enjoy bliss ? Or pray to get dementia? LOL

You are speaking from experience I guess??LOL

 

[a-TB]

You are speaking from experience I guess??LOL

I never advanced this theory. Only one with some experience can propose such a thing LOL

 

[renuka]

I never advanced this theory. Only one with some experience can propose such a thing LOL

Well..you proposed it..now you are retracting it..OMG ! You forgot you actually proposed it...get well soon.

 

[a-TB]

Well..you proposed it..now you are retracting it..OMG ! You forgot you actually proposed it...get well soon.

Let me explain once more since I did not realize you are a practitioner of the proposal to become an idiot. Unfortunately there is still far too much intelligence left, so I was suggesting you a quick way - either prayer or a medical procedure LOL .. For prayer , do not forget to praise the deity LOL

 

[renuka]

Let me explain once more since I did not realize you are a practitioner of the proposal to become an idiot. Unfortunately there is still far too much intelligence left, so I was suggesting you a quick way - either prayer or a medical procedure LOL .. For prayer , do not forget to praise the deity LOL

The snake and the rope effect.
You feel there is some intelligence left in a self proclaimed "idiot".
Turn on the light and see that only the " idiot" verily remains.

Yes! ALHAMDULLILAH

 

[KRS]

+++ There have been a few ex-physics members (like Mr tks) and my interactions have been productive and positive. I can already see a lucid style to your responses.
Thank you for the compliment.

+++ 'Happened' is in time and so can one really talk about 'before' big bang which means time is already present? Similarly the idea of cause assumes time and time itself is not created. So the language and our model of cause -effect will fail in trying to reason that there must be a cause. The root cause if we can even accept a cause being Brahman, has to be causeless cause. Why not say the laws of nature are all causeless cause and assign a single entity that is not descripable as the that causeless entity.
Current time estimate for the bang is 10 to the power of negative 43, which is not zero time. Science, I do not think can even postulate about what caused it. Again, I am free to postulate for myself that satisfies my mind.

Assuming big bang theory is ultimate though in Science new theories are possible, no one can say what caused it because the time element itself is not created by the big bang, So the existence of Brahman is not obvious.
Again, refer to the above statement. Absence of proof does not mean absence of postulation about a possibility.

Physical universe is explained by big bang and no one knows what caused it
Exactly.
+++ This assumes a creator. If it is not an assumption based on our limited data how is this assumption validated?
Science, as I said before can not validate something that is beyond our senses.

+++ So you say Advita is a mental concept. Is that right? How can mind come up with a concept of something that is superior to it. You are in a closed system borrowing your statements elsewhere I think. How does the mind know outside the closed system it is in?
This is where the theories of Atman, Sadhana, Purifying the mind, Nirguna Brahman, Ahamkara etc. come in. The fundamental assumption here is since our mind is powered by Atman (which is a localized Brahman), it can indeed be folded in to it. There are words of many who have attained this state.

+++ Is the ultimate truth is based on our likes and dislikes?
Can we really extrapolate assumptions arising from multiplicity like ancestors and project to say the truth which is non-dual?
The statement I made pertains only to explain why I might be attracted to Advaitha tradition and Ramana Maharishi. No likes and dislikes involved. Only to explain my choice over any other so called wisdom traditions.

+++ This I can resonate with the teaching that one can find happiness here and now based on the words of a teacher. But then that kind of happiness cannot be an experience. Because all experiences are limited in time. Claiming that to be timeless is just a belief.
Advaitha says Sat Chit Ananda is not an experience that has the usual Subject/Object relationship. It is a case where experience and the experiences are the same. Again, this belief is attested by those who attained this state.

+++ One of the first book Mr Sangom recommended me was to read about Ramana Maharishi's teaching. I did but could not understand a lot. He did make certain things simple by asking to meditate on 'who am i'. I could not do that for too long. I could see simplicity and profundity in reading those conversations.
well, in our tradition, at the right time, if you are a seeker, a Guru, will appear, need not be in human form.

Thank you. I have provided in-line comments. I am not trying to be argumentative. I examine every sentence to understand and when I see issues there I have raised them above.

Thank you.

 

[renuka]

I am no expert but just merely sharing some opinions.

There are multiple ways to reach the "Who am I " scenario.

1)By contemplating on the "Who am I " through a competent Guru (living or non-living) which would appear for a seeker with Shraddha.
It needs a lot of patience and "waiting"..its almost like Zen, where its a process of discovery which actually is going to be experience based finally and not really much of an evidence analytical based.
Here one needs utmost trust and faith in his Guru to proceed.
Some might ask "what if the Guru is a fake one"?
Well, for seeker who is having Shraddha he would be able to identify a real Guru from a false one.

The question "Who am I" actually does not have an answer to be uttered but it BECOMES...a state of Being rather than just a reply to a question.
In the state of Being even the question, the questioner, the answer and the process of answering ceases to exists.
In the whole process we are peeling layers to reveal what lies within the layers or like bursting a balloon and the air in the balloon has no separate existence from the atmosphere.
The "Who am I " method is universal and anyone from a theist to atheist or agnostic can access it because there isn't much emphasis on a personal God.

2)The other way which is a tad easier is worshipping God.
When we worship God as in an external One, we do not focus on ourselves at least for a few seconds during prayer.
This process does involve seeking favors or pardon or begging for help or praising.
Even though it could be a desire based process but at least for a few seconds during prayer while praising God the thoughts have a One pointedness moment be it even 5 seconds.

Eventually the time span of the One pointedness increases and one might even not feel the time axis anymore that is the person is in the NOW.
This is where all the layers we built around ourselves get broken down layer by layer and again its like the balloon bursting and the air inside of it has no separate existence from the atmosphere.



I happened to see a video where a tribe from Africa who are hunter-gatherers were interviewed.
Their answers were so so focused.
They were asked:

1)What is happiness for you?

Reply : Meat and honey.

2)What happens after death?

Reply: We leave the dead in a deep cave and move on.


3)Where do they go after death? Heaven ??

Reply: They go back to the Sun like all things that came from it and returns to it.


4)What is your greatest fear?

Reply : If you are asking about my greatest fear here, then my answer is the Lion.


5)What does the Moon mean to you?

Reply : Nothing! But on full moon nights its too bright and we can't hunt well at night because we would be easily seen by the animals.




I felt the answers were very focused and direct to the point.
Learnt a lot from that video.

 

[renuka]

External learning moves like a Moon and fades when the Sun of experience rises.( Hakim Sanai)