Women and morality

[biswa]

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Sorry, I have to debate on one more point.

You mention the good feeling in interacting with another person. Why do we call it love? Can't it be called friendship?

If it was between two people of the same gender (assume not gay) would we still call it love or would we call it a deep friendship?

I had a few close male friends at some point, to the extent that we could complete each others sentences. I hope we were not in love, even though I was glad to experience the depth of our friendship.

 

[renuka]

Sorry, I have to debate on one more point.

You mention the good feeling in interacting with another person. Why do we call it love? Can't it be called friendship?

If it was between two people of the same gender (assume not gay) would we still call it love or would we call it a deep friendship?

I had a few close male friends at some point, to the extent that we could complete each others sentences. I hope we were not in love, even though I was glad to experience the depth of our friendship.

Its different...in friendship you dont feel your heart speaking.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

No Ms. Amala, I beg to differ. Elizabeth Hurley was having an affair with Shane Warne while being married to Arun Nayyar. Who knows her child with Stanley Bing might have been during an overlapping period as well.

Similarly the Top Chef Padmalakshmi had a baby with Adam Dell while "going out" with Ted Forstmann. Hopefully that period did not overlap with Salman Rushdie as well. There was so much doubt whose baby it was that she had to do a paternity test.

So for all practical purposes, these people were almost husband and wife except for being recognized by society. That is probably as close we can get to polyandry at this point.

When you talk of paternity test, in India, a VIP has refused to undergo DNA Test
recently. If I am correct, this issue came upto judicial level where the boy born to that
VIP because of illicit relation with the maid servant. Of late, we read articles, like
western countries, indian girls too have started sleeping with guys. As for as male
member, he escapes even when he has illicit relation with many women. Whereas
the woman folk becomes the target at times, if they miss the track prior to their
marriage. I do not know what is the solution to this. Our Hindu culture is very clear
for one man one woman and they should live together till their end. This is want
chanted through the Mantras at the time of wedding. If something wrong happens
to a girl prior to the marriage and that she soon gets married to a boy and she turns
to a family way, the poor boys gets trapped knowing or unknowingly, because she
will hide the past incidents. This is the state of affairs in our society in some quarters.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[biswa]

Sir,
It is not only just Hindu culture. I believe the Christian marriage vows go something like this:
To have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part.

I think all major religions (except one) advocate monogamous relationships. And we also know the people in all these religions are unable to adhere to this standard.

 

[kunjuppu]

bala your post #53

Our Hindu culture is very clear for one man one woman and they should live together till their end. This is want chanted through the Mantras at the time of wedding.

afaik, dasaratha had multiple wives, so did krishna, murugan, siva. also did so many of my relatives for many reasons unknown to me, 2 - 3 generations ago. having a chinna veedu was accepted and common.

so please tell me, are these mulitple wifedom, exceptions. or sanctioned by the scriptures. please. and thank you.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

women and morality

I totally agree with you. King Dasaratha, Lord Krishna, Lord Siva, Lord Murugan are only
examples to us that we should not repeat that. King Dasaratha had not had
happy life till his last breath. We have seen many Thiruvilaiyadals of Lord Siva, Lord Krishna and
Lord Murugan also. We should only take them as guidelines but neither repeat that
nor follow it. I too have heard in the middle of 19th Century, in our caste too, some had married
more than one, stating that the first one had no issue, like that and so on. Why Kuchela had
so many children. Can we afford to have that much now. We should not cultivate a habit of one
woman for one man and limited children, not only to lead a good disciplined life but also do our
duties of Dharma without demonstrating earlier practice, at the same time not denigrating our life.
The birth that we take on this holy Janma Bhoomi is just not getting wife or wives alone.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[amala]

Friendship, deep deep friendship as I understand it is always platonic. Once it crosses the platonic line then its not just mere deep friendship but love or lust or attraction, whatever you want to call it but not just deep friendship.

I read somewhere that a man and a woman cannot be just good friends unless both or one party is not attracted to each other. If one or both are attracted its not friendship anymore. They may not act on those feelings but its still not just friendship anymore, apparently.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

women and morality

We too have Platos in India and there are people who remain friends for
many years, not bye-passing or crossing the platonic line. It all depends
on the environment or situation, above all self discipline, in which one
moves with the other without giving room to anything as you narrate.
Every woman cannot become a fiance to a man or vice versa and one
should establish the truthfulness of their friendship. It does not mean
that if a man or woman moves with the other, that should not lead to
the other side of the friendship. Perhaps it turns around to their weakness

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[guruvayurappan]

Since time immemorial i think the "other women" have always been blamed more than the straying married man himself. I don't think anything has changed. Society always will even in the forseeable future blame the other woman. Why go so far, the wife will blame her even more than her own straying husband and probably the man himself will blame the other woman for seducing him (as if he is soo innocent).
The thing is if the other woman is single than i feel the man and wife should be blamed. They are the ones that made their marital vows to each other. Not the other woman. And for men who are serial cheaters, if its not woman A it will be woman B or woman C. These other women are the symptom not the cause. If you want to deal with this properly, nip the cause in the bud.

For emotional, falling in love infidelity, i honestly feel all 3 are innocent parties and shouldn't be judged harshly, ideally.

it is always said by mothers whether the stone hit the glass or the glass fallen on the stone the ultimate loss is for the glass only . and the cloth will be torn if it comes in touch with thorn accidentally or other wise .so women should be more careful . but that should not be excuse and the offender to be punished .
guruvayurappan

 

[guruvayurappan]

I totally agree with you. King Dasaratha, Lord Krishna, Lord Siva, Lord Murugan are only
examples to us that we should not repeat that. King Dasaratha had not had
happy life till his last breath. We have seen many Thiruvilaiyadals of Lord Siva, Lord Krishna and
Lord Murugan also. We should only take them as guidelines but neither repeat that
nor follow it. I too have heard in the middle of 19th Century, in our caste too, some had married
more than one, stating that the first one had no issue, like that and so on. Why Kuchela had
so many children. Can we afford to have that much now. We should not cultivate a habit of one
woman for one man and limited children, not only to lead a good disciplined life but also do our
duties of Dharma without demonstrating earlier practice, at the same time not denigrating our life.
The birth that we take on this holy Janma Bhoomi is just not getting wife or wives alone.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

all should keep in mind the following utterance
muthal tharam tharam (wife)
erandam tharam vikaram (ugly)
moontram tharam agoram(cruel )
nalam tharam parobakaram(help for all )
guruvayurappan

 

[guruvayurappan]

bala your post #53

Our Hindu culture is very clear for one man one woman and they should live together till their end. This is want chanted through the Mantras at the time of wedding.

afaik, dasaratha had multiple wives, so did krishna, murugan, siva. also did so many of my relatives for many reasons unknown to me, 2 - 3 generations ago. having a chinna veedu was accepted and common.

so please tell me, are these mulitple wifedom, exceptions. or sanctioned by the scriptures. please. and thank you.

daer kunjuppu !
koonthal ulla seemati uli mudikiral ellathava enna seiyvathu ?
you follow what is your conscience say correct.if you follow some rule which is good,your conscience will not permit you to do things in other way.nowadays all are stopping with single child and where is the need for more wife ? Instead of marrying second time for the sake of child ,better adopt a child or go for advanced medical care
guruvayurappan

 

[biswa]

Friendship, deep deep friendship as I understand it is always platonic. Once it crosses the platonic line then its not just mere deep friendship but love or lust or attraction, whatever you want to call it but not just deep friendship.

I read somewhere that a man and a woman cannot be just good friends unless both or one party is not attracted to each other. If one or both are attracted its not friendship anymore. They may not act on those feelings but its still not just friendship anymore, apparently.

Well said Amala! Very true.

 

[biswa]

it is always said by mothers whether the stone hit the glass or the glass fallen on the stone the ultimate loss is for the glass only . and the cloth will be torn if it comes in touch with thorn accidentally or other wise .so women should be more careful . but that should not be excuse and the offender to be punished .
guruvayurappan

Mr. Guru, you will excuse me if I question this. Why is it that women should be more careful? Are these the questions of pregnancy or virginity? Don't paternity and virginity matter for a man?

Also who should be punished, the man or the woman, or both?

What should the punishment be? Stoning to death (only for the woman btw) like in Middle Eastern countries?

 

[renuka]

it is always said by mothers whether the stone hit the glass or the glass fallen on the stone the ultimate loss is for the glass only . and the cloth will be torn if it comes in touch with thorn accidentally or other wise .so women should be more careful . but that should not be excuse and the offender to be punished .
guruvayurappan

What is this glass,cloth,stone,thorn yaar? Men always think women are at the losing end.
Its just some ego boost they give themselves that woman lose out in anything and everything they do.

A college mate of mine recently got married and he was well known womanizer who has conquered every possible female around town and country etc and when he married he married a virgin.
We were all laughing at him saying wow you actually married a virgin after what you had done?
He said cos a woman never forgets the 1st person she has slept with.

We girls told him.."hello my dear..thats what you think..we girls are never having that much fixation on anyone and concentrate on who we marry finally..
Guys just give yourselves an ego boost and think girls never forget the 1st person..so many girls cant remember even the name of their ex boyfriends these days"

I always feel men come up with the weirdest Tatvam about females.
No one really knows what goes on in the mind of a female except herself.

 

[Servall]

Hi Renu:

I always feel men come up with the weirdest Tatvam about females.
No one really knows what goes on in the mind of a female except herself.

Aint that an understatement!!

Your comment made me write a poem, my first attempt, and it is dedicated to my wife!!

Very true, for all the things my wife does to me and my kids, this is the least I can do.

TAKE ME WITH YOU:

We are married for many years, almost twenty five
It seems like yesterday that we met in the U
How time got away from under our feet and years gone-by
Alas, I can’t claim even this day I know all about you.

When young and in love, you whispered in my ears lots of things
You yearned to know all about your man
I thought all that you said were sweet nothings
You listened, I didn’t, and there you gave me the first lesson.

In anger you said a lot of things at me I thought were insult
I yelled back and felt good that I was so mean
Wish I had known your anger meant facts that hurt you most
To my anger you kept silent, there you gave me the second lesson.

Remember those wedding games to answer about each other in the plan?
You answered every question about me on the dot, but I didn’t
I laughed off all those games as if they were just fun,
Wish I had read your eyes how hurt you felt.

Sad movies, fun movies we watched together
You held my hands, laughed and cried all I thought was foolish
Right there you wanted me to see what to you matter
When time came I had to cry, you held my hands and wiped my tears that I cherish.

You run all the time to buy me and kids nice gift
When it was my turn, I was glad I gave you cash to fill your purse
To you it is not the fancy jewellery or money that you should get
All that made you cry was one stop at the nursery for a single red rose

It is said a woman’s heart is deeper than the ocean
Many things men cant fathom
Menopause, mom, sister, grand mother all rolled into one
How can I ever tell you my wife is awesome!!

I know now life is just a mirage
What you see is not what you get
You stood by me and spoke with courage
You taught me to live every minute with foresight.

Every day you teach me life’s nothing but a big marathon
And at each turn to look back and learn
I left you behind, and wandered with no mindset
It is time for me to wait, to take you with me in the sunset.

 

[prasad1]

We girls told him.."hello my dear..thats what you think..we girls are never having that much fixation on anyone and concentrate on who we marry finally..

I am not even sure about that. It is till the better offer.
Same is true for men. LOL:eyebrows:

 

[renuka]

Hi Renu:



Aint that an understatement!!

Your comment made me write a poem, my first attempt, and it is dedicated to my wife!!

Very true, for all the things my wife does to me and my kids, this is the least I can do.

TAKE ME WITH YOU:

We are married for many years, almost twenty five
It seems like yesterday that we met in the U
How time got away from under our feet and years gone-by
Alas, I can’t claim even this day I know all about you.

When young and in love, you whispered in my ears lots of things
You yearned to know all about your man
I thought all that you said were sweet nothings
You listened, I didn’t, and there you gave me the first lesson.

In anger you said a lot of things at me I thought were insult
I yelled back and felt good that I was so mean
Wish I had known your anger meant facts that hurt you most
To my anger you kept silent, there you gave me the second lesson.

Remember those wedding games to answer about each other in the plan?
You answered every question about me on the dot, but I didn’t
I laughed off all those games as if they were just fun,
Wish I had read your eyes how hurt you felt.

Sad movies, fun movies we watched together
You held my hands, laughed and cried all I thought was foolish
Right there you wanted me to see what to you matter
When time came I had to cry, you held my hands and wiped my tears that I cherish.

You run all the time to buy me and kids nice gift
When it was my turn, I was glad I gave you cash to fill your purse
To you it is not the fancy jewellery or money that you should get
All that made you cry was one stop at the nursery for a single red rose

It is said a woman’s heart is deeper than the ocean
Many things men cant fathom
Menopause, mom, sister, grand mother all rolled into one
How can I ever tell you my wife is awesome!!

I know now life is just a mirage
What you see is not what you get
You stood by me and spoke with courage
You taught me to live every minute with foresight.

Every day you teach me life’s nothing but a big marathon
And at each turn to look back and learn
I left you behind, and wandered with no mindset
It is time for me to wait, to take you with me in the sunset.

Ok now a spoof version.

Let me go without you(Primate story)

We are married for many years..almost as many as the bees in a hive,
It seems like yesterday that we met in the zoo,
How time got away in our cage and years gone by,
Alas, I can’t claim even this day I know all about you.


When young and in love, you whispered in my ears lots of things
You yearned to know all about your man...Kong the King,
I thought all that you said were sweet peelings,
You listened, I didn’t, and there you gave me the first contusion.

In anger you said a lot of things at me I thought were insult
I yelled back and felt good that I was so alpha mean,
Wish I had known your anger meant facts that you will hurt me most
To my anger your jaws were not silent, there you gave me the second laceration.

Remember those mating games to answer about each other in the plan?
You answered every question about me on the dot, but I didn’t was busy with the Orang Utan,
I laughed off all those games as if they were just fun,
Wish I had read your eye cos now I know the swing of your hand.

Sad movies, fun movies we made together
You gripped my hands and more,jumped and cried all I thought was foolish
Right there you wanted me to see what to you matter
When time came I had to cry, you thrust into my hands and and gave me tissue paper.

You run all the time to pluck me and kids nice nectarines,
When it was my turn, I was glad I gave you fresh stuff to fill your yearnings,
To you it is not the fancy jewellery or money that you should get
All that made you cry was one stop to uproot a tree for a single red rose,

It is said a females’s heart is deeper than the ocean,
I dont really know cos I am no plankton,
Menopause, mom, sister, grand mother all rolled into one
How can I ever tell you my mate is fearsome!!

I know now life is just a mirage,
After you bashed me when I checked out the giraffe,
What you see is not what you get
You taught me to live for you and not let others be in my sight.


Every day you teach me life’s nothing but a big marathon,
And at each turn to look back and learn
If I leave you behind, and wandered with no mindset
I know that's the day of my final sunset.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Woman and morality

Both of you have coined it very nicely the entire thing in a poem
written with clarity, as if your mind directly speaks out as to what had
happened over the years.

Generally women are more contextual and tend or likely to behave in
a certain way to view the Universe as such, rather in a more and emotional way.
But as we learn from our practical lives, human growth process ought to be
viewed as a process or steps, which begins in an early childhood, proceeds
into adulthood and finally terminates only with demise. During these stages
we do many things in our life, whether it is good or for bad.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[guruvayurappan]

Hi Renu:



Aint that an understatement!!

Your comment made me write a poem, my first attempt, and it is dedicated to my wife!!

Very true, for all the things my wife does to me and my kids, this is the least I can do.

TAKE ME WITH YOU:

We are married for many years, almost twenty five
It seems like yesterday that we met in the U
How time got away from under our feet and years gone-by
Alas, I can’t claim even this day I know all about you.

When young and in love, you whispered in my ears lots of things
You yearned to know all about your man
I thought all that you said were sweet nothings
You listened, I didn’t, and there you gave me the first lesson.

In anger you said a lot of things at me I thought were insult
I yelled back and felt good that I was so mean
Wish I had known your anger meant facts that hurt you most
To my anger you kept silent, there you gave me the second lesson.

Remember those wedding games to answer about each other in the plan?
You answered every question about me on the dot, but I didn’t
I laughed off all those games as if they were just fun,
Wish I had read your eyes how hurt you felt.

Sad movies, fun movies we watched together
You held my hands, laughed and cried all I thought was foolish
Right there you wanted me to see what to you matter
When time came I had to cry, you held my hands and wiped my tears that I cherish.

You run all the time to buy me and kids nice gift
When it was my turn, I was glad I gave you cash to fill your purse
To you it is not the fancy jewellery or money that you should get
All that made you cry was one stop at the nursery for a single red rose

It is said a woman’s heart is deeper than the ocean
Many things men cant fathom
Menopause, mom, sister, grand mother all rolled into one
How can I ever tell you my wife is awesome!!

I know now life is just a mirage
What you see is not what you get
You stood by me and spoke with courage
You taught me to live every minute with foresight.

Every day you teach me life’s nothing but a big marathon
And at each turn to look back and learn
I left you behind, and wandered with no mindset
It is time for me to wait, to take you with me in the sunset.

DEAR SERVALL !
THE POEM IS APPLICABLE TO ALL OF US (i.e. it is the feeling of all couples of >25 years married life).BETTER LATE THAN NEVER . i was thinking that i was very late in understanding my wife and glad to note that majority of men are like that

 

[kunjuppu]

servall, congrats on your poem.

what i would like to say, is that till previous generation, men could probably get away with such attitudes - ignoring their wives and expect her to be loyal and uncomplaining.

i would only like to point out, that today's women are just like the men. if you go wayward, they will not, and correctly so, put up with such shenanigans. this might indicate why we have sharp increases in divorce rates among indians.

a wage earning independent woman, who has no need of a man to clothe feed and house her, has no need also, to put up with a drunk wayward abusive husband.

so, while the tone of this poem is sentimental and 'return of the prodigal' in theme, i find the theme in poems written by youngsters, in blogs, more of dealing with 'la belle dame sans merci'!

 

[Servall]

Hi K:

What you say is so true that the mindset of the current generation girls that are independent do not really need to take the shananigans of the wayward husbands. But having married to the same woman for 20+ years, we all learn to compromise, these men do take the wives for granted plenty of occasions and even get away with that.

My poem was only to admit that I am one of those husbands and my wife has been more than kind in forgiving me and still putting up with me inspite of all those of my inadequacies. But your point is well taken.

Renu:

Your retort was so funny....but hey I thought I was giving you, the womankind, the best of compliments...why this kolaveri to put yourself down?

Cheers....

 

[kunjuppu]

thank you servall. wishing you bliss from now on.

ps. i think renu also married for long, would not have put up with any shenanigans, and mr R penning a poem the calibre of yours, would have had no effect on that good lady ... not that mr R would ever stray from the straight and narrow path, but even if he ever did, women of renu's generation and then on, would suffer no idiots. which i think is a welcome thing.

surprisingly, in many a modern tamil poem, blog or cinema, is slowly emerging, the sensitive tamilian man, aware of the needs of the woman, willing to cry, and above all, admit to dependent on the female on occassions. good progress in our social thought and awareness process. i think.

 

[guruvayurappan]

What is this glass,cloth,stone,thorn yaar? Men always think women are at the losing end.
Its just some ego boost they give themselves that woman lose out in anything and everything they do.

A college mate of mine recently got married and he was well known womanizer who has conquered every possible female around town and country etc and when he married he married a virgin.
We were all laughing at him saying wow you actually married a virgin after what you had done?
He said cos a woman never forgets the 1st person she has slept with.

We girls told him.."hello my dear..thats what you think..we girls are never having that much fixation on anyone and concentrate on who we marry finally..
Guys just give yourselves an ego boost and think girls never forget the 1st person..so many girls cant remember even the name of their ex boyfriends these days"

I always feel men come up with the weirdest Tatvam about females.
No one really knows what goes on in the mind of a female except herself.

dear renuka !
nicely said and "We girls told him.hello my dear..thats what you think..we girls are never having that much fixation on anyone and concentrate on who we marry finally.." is absolutlycorrect.That's why it is said penn is a puzzle and very few can understand her correctly.her mind is deeper than sea

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Why put women on a pedestal? Did they ask for it? Men always seem to be doing that subconsiously it seems. Why hold them to higher moral standards.They are not better than men (i'm not sure i actually believe what i'm typing here at all ) and they are not worse than men. They are as HUMAN as men. With the same flaws and everything else. They just look different. Full stop.

The word you have highlighted (HUMAN) made me wonder why there is only a man in human (hu-man). hahaha.:suspicious:

 

[renuka]

The word you have highlighted (HUMAN) made me wonder why there is only a man in human (hu-man). hahaha.:suspicious:

Thats only English my dear..dont you think Sanskrit is better.

Humans are Manava(with mind).
Male is Purusha and Female is Stri.It really specific and not really gender biased.
If we misbehave we will be called Danava!!