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what is Tamil Brahmin "CULTURE"?

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prasad1

prasad1

Active member
In this site we have had discussion about TB cultures, but no one has expressed what is Culture. From time to time we talk about preserving this culture, or loosing this culture etc. My concept of TB culture is not going to be similar to someone else's culture. If one wants to impose a set of behavior on others and call it the "universal TB Culture", that is bound to fail.

Culture is the full range of learned human behavior patterns. The term was first used in this way by the pioneer English Anthropologist Edward B. Tylor in his book, Primitive Culture, published in 1871. Tylor said that culture is "that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, law, morals, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society." Of course, it is not limited to men. Women possess and create it as well. Since Tylor's time, the concept of culture has become the central focus of anthropology.

Culture is a powerful human tool for survival, but it is a fragile phenomenon. It is constantly changing and easily lost because it exists only in our minds. Our written languages, governments, buildings, and other man-made things are merely the products of culture. They are not culture in themselves.
 
Like for people of any other caste, race and religion, The Genes of TB has its uniqueness with experiences and wisdom of past many years. We wish to retain that uniqueness and that uniqueness is our culture.

We are not just fascinated with written language, governments, building and other man-made things alone BUT are fascinated with the uniqueness in our genes and its significance.

Others may not find anything unique and significant in TB Genes, but we don't care and so are the others.

To retain the uniqueness and significance of TB Genes, we need collective efforts to retain its acquired qualities and take its evolution up ahead.

The life style practices, perceptions, eating habits, ahimsa, ethics, discipline, customs related to birth and death of family members, unique style of celebrating festivals/days of spiritual significance, unique cuisine, spirituality etc. constitutes our culture, while amicably, lovingly and friendly dealing/interacting with fellow humans who belong to other caste, race and religion, in our surviving society.


 
The life style practices, perceptions, eating habits, ahimsa, ethics, discipline, customs related to birth and death of family members, unique style of celebrating festivals/days of spiritual significance, unique cuisine, spirituality etc. constitutes our culture, while amicably, lovingly and friendly dealing/interacting with fellow humans who belong to other caste, race and religion, in our surviving society.
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I challenge this concept.
What you eat is not any other Tb eats. There are tb who will not eat Onions and Garlic, do you subscribe to that.
There are tb who will not travel overseas, but some of us have traveled outside of India. My grandmother never ate in Hotels, but others eats all over the world. One has to be ignorant or deliberately ignoring the reality. Let us have an honest discussion.
 
C RAVI said:
Like for people of any other caste, race and religion, The Genes of TB has its uniqueness with experiences and wisdom of past many years. We wish to retain that uniqueness and that uniqueness is our culture.

We are not just fascinated with written language, governments, building and other man-made things alone BUT are fascinated with the uniqueness in our genes and its significance.

Others may not find anything unique and significant in TB Genes, but we don't care and so are the others.

To retain the uniqueness and significance of TB Genes, we need collective efforts to retain its acquired qualities and take its evolution up ahead.

The life style practices, perceptions, eating habits, ahimsa, ethics, discipline, customs related to birth and death of family members, unique style of celebrating festivals/days of spiritual significance, unique cuisine, spirituality etc. constitutes our culture, while amicably, lovingly and friendly dealing/interacting with fellow humans who belong to other caste, race and religion, in our surviving society.
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Your post is spot on !!.

Conservative TB’s will continue to march relentlessly in the absolute path of our religion/culture/tradition. Anyone & everyone who moves away & gets into any IC/IR stuff is gone forever. And who cares about whether they challenge the concept. For all I care, they can crow about changing the traditionalist TB’s for the rest of their lives !!
 
My grand parents didn't eat onions and garlic. But their children (our parents) started eating and so we are. The same is the case with many TB family.

The TB community unanimously have accepted the above.


In those days, people didn't go abroad. But due to changing scenario, having the opportunities, TB started migrating. Not only have migrated but have constructed temples there and employed learned priest to do pooja in these temples. These priest who are working in temples abroad are also brahimns who knows Saastham and Sampradayam and the restrictions that were believed and following in bygone days.

The Tb community has unanimously accepted the above.


My grand parents never eat in Hotel. But her children (our parents) and we started eating Vegetarian foods in hotels, because it so warranted at times and became a choice to have a change, comfort etc.etc. Brahmin Mess also begin to exist and people of all caste were in due course accepted to have food there.

The TB community has unanimously accepted it


Many TB or any other caste people who are vegetarian never enter a veg & non.veg hotel to have food. There are still many of this kind. As well, there are people from these group who go to such veg. & non.veg hotel (if they feel its hygienic and not stinking) to have ONLY Vegetarian food, snacks, juices etc.

The TB community has unanimously accepted it.


We TB community know how to adapt to the changing scenario, challenges, necessities etc and how to survive well. But still we know how to retain our fundamental principles and are continuing to relish TB uniqueness in all the aspects that I have highlighted in my post no.2.

 
The TB community, imo, has not been able to "preserve" any culture of its own in a way which is followed by all, or at least most/ a majority of the people in this community. Our culture has changed continuously w.r.t. time and also with respect to groups migrating to different places on account of a host of reasons.

I belong to the sub-caste known as "Sankethi" which is found in one or two districts of TN and also in Karnataka. If someone asks me, I will say that our Sankethi culture is well-preserved in the Mathur village of Karnataka, which is a Sanskrit-speaking village, unique, perhaps in India. (Brahmin Street, Mathur, Sanskrit village, Karnataka - YouTube)

But if I go now to Mathur (Mattur, Shimoga Dt.) I will be a misfit! But the people of Mathur have also not preserved anything belonging to, say, 2000 or 3000 years; they have also changed but comparatively, they have succeeded in preserving certain customs for a few hundred years.

We all make tall and mostly nostalgic claims about culture, tradition and religion. All these have changed over time; we are like dry leaves floating in river water - the ever changing aspect of time. I think it is an essential part of human psychology to find some sort of peace in nostalgia.

In contemporary India, I feel we have been having rapid societal changes during the last one decade or so. These changes should ideally have come about in 50 years or so and then all people might have accepted all these changes as 'natural'; but the rapid pace of the changes and the crass materialism and market-orientation of these changes have jolted our society. In the very long run all these changes will definitely have very little "lasting" impact, but in the short duration these have been very upsetting, especially for our tabra society.

Therefore, it may not be worthwhile discussing about "what is Tabra culture?", but certain things like our religious beliefs/notions and superstitions, the cuisine peculiar to tabras, certain social practices like upanayanam, marriage according to certain time-honoured procedure before lighted fire, the "seemantham" ceremony for pregnant woman, the many religious celebrations throughout the year, and so on will continue to be followed, although with such changes as dictated by space-time, as becomes unavoidable. But it is today not a question of "unavoidability" but a result of the thinking that we as individuals as well as community will stand to benefit, if we imitate what the people living in the developed countries practice. It is this mentality which may cause the extinction of what little of our "tabra culture" still floats around; that is where small communities like that of Mathur score over us.
 
C RAVI said:
My grand parents didn't eat onions and garlic. But their children (our parents) started eating and so we are. The same is the case with many TB family.

The TB community unanimously have accepted the above.


In those days, people didn't go abroad. But due to changing scenario, having the opportunities, TB started migrating. Not only have migrated but have constructed temples there and employed learned priest to do pooja in these temples. These priest who are working in temples abroad are also brahimns who knows Saastham and Sampradayam and the restrictions that were believed and following in bygone days.

The Tb community has unanimously accepted the above.


My grand parents never eat in Hotel. But her children (our parents) and we started eating Vegetarian foods in hotels, because it so warranted at times and became a choice to have a change, comfort etc.etc. Brahmin Mess also begin to exist and people of all caste were in due course accepted to have food there.

The TB community has unanimously accepted it


Many TB or any other caste people who are vegetarian never enter a veg & non.veg hotel to have food. There are still many of this kind. As well, there are people from these group who go to such veg. & non.veg hotel (if they feel its hygienic and not stinking) to have ONLY Vegetarian food, snacks, juices etc.

The TB community has unanimously accepted it.


We TB community know how to adapt to the changing scenario, challenges, necessities etc and how to survive well. But still we know how to retain our fundamental principles and are continuing to relish TB uniqueness in all the aspects that I have highlighted in my post no.2.
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What do you mean by universally accepted it, you and who else.
I know of tamil families who still to this day refuse to eat Garlic. I know of families that older generation refuses to travel outside of India. So there is no universal acceptance.

Tradition cannot change.
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elsewhere you liked this comment, So you are speaking from both side.
Let us be clear which is your new position.

Traditions can not change, or traditions are ever evolving. If they are evolving then they will not be universal. You can not have it both ways.
 
CULTURE IS NOT A BELONGING OF ANY GROUP OR COMMUNITY.

Culture, a mix of ethics and etiquette, is common to the entire human race.

The customs, practices, norms of any closed group is perhaps being confused with the term culture.

Even among different people groups, customs, practices, norms, habits are volatile and dynamic. They change with time, space etc. For instance a Thanjavur-Tamil-Brahmin differs from a Palghat-Tamil-Brahmin who differs from Tirunelveli-Tamil-Brahmin and so on.

On a broader scale, Tamil-Brahmins (Iyer/Iyengar) differ from Malayalam-Brahmins (Nambudri) who in turn differ from Kannada-Brahmins (Battaru) and Telugu-Brahmins (Barpanalu).
 
Iyer@Infosys said:
CULTURE IS NOT A BELONGING OF ANY GROUP OR COMMUNITY.

Culture, a mix of ethics and etiquette, is common to the entire human race.

The customs, practices, norms of any closed group is perhaps being confused with the term culture.

Even among different people groups, customs, practices, norms, habits are volatile and dynamic. They change with time, space etc. For instance a Thanjavur-Tamil-Brahmin differs from a Palghat-Tamil-Brahmin who differs from Tirunelveli-Tamil-Brahmin and so on.

On a broader scale, Tamil-Brahmins (Iyer/Iyengar) differ from Malayalam-Brahmins (Nambudri) who in turn differ from Kannada-Brahmins (Battaru) and Telugu-Brahmins (Barpanalu).
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Yes you are right.
 
hi
culture basically geographically maintained in food/language/dress....its purely geographical based...
 

Any culture is bound to change as years pass by!

Just an example of dress code of three generations of tambram ladies:

In the 50s:

MadisAr - Six yards saree - pAvadai dhAvaNi

In the 70s:

MadisAr / six yards saree - Six yards saree - salwAr kameez

In the 90s:

Six yards saree - chudidhAr - half skirt

In 2010:

Six yards saree / Chudidhar - Chudidhar / jeans pants - Jeans pants / micro mini !!
 
Raji Ram said:

Any culture is bound to change as years pass by!

Just an example of dress code of three generations of tambram ladies:

In the 50s:

MadisAr - Six yards saree - pAvadai dhAvaNi

In the 70s:

MadisAr / six yards saree - Six yards saree - salwAr kameez

In the 90s:

Six yards saree - chudidhAr - half skirt

In 2010:

Six yards saree / Chudidhar - Chudidhar / jeans pants - Jeans pants / micro mini !!
Click to expand...
hi RR madam....

the dress culture....FROM DHAVANI TO BIKNI.....LOL
 
tbs said:
hi renu,

LOL.....in fact thayir sadam is code name of TB culture....
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Dear TBS garu,


Ok now from a NB perspective..let me tell how much I know about TB culture after I joined forum.

1)Thayir Sadam is a staple diet

2)Iyer Vs Iyengar are like George Lucas Star Wars Trilogy!

3)Vadakalai Vs Thenkalai extends into other species too...the Elephant Court Case story.

4)TB guys keep blaming TB girls for the lack of opportunity to get a wife!

5)TBs are constantly worried about culture erosion but I have really no idea what they are worried about cos no one is very specific about what they are really worried about.

6)TBs love Carnatic Music and not fond of Carnatic Fusion or Kuttu Songs!LOL
 
mkrishna100 said:
We have to first define who is a Tamil , Who is a Brahmin and what culture means before trying to understand what Tamil Brahmin Culture means
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Tamil is a language and who has this language as mother tongue is a Tamil.

As far now, brahmin is a caste and the children born to brahmin parents are brahmins!

If one parent only is a brahmin they might be called half-brahmins! :cool:

And

cul·ture (/ˈkəlCHər/) - meaning by Google:

The arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively.
 
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renuka said:
Dear TBS garu,


Ok now from a NB perspective..let me tell how much I know about TB culture after I joined forum.

1)Thayir Sadam is a staple diet
Click to expand...

You and others have left out "AvakkAi oorugAi". That should also be added i think.

2)Iyer Vs Iyengar are like George Lucas Star Wars Trilogy!
Click to expand...

Iyer Vs. Iyengar seems to be genetically coded now. !!!

3)Vadakalai Vs Thenkalai extends into other species too...the Elephant Court Case story.
Click to expand...

Only extends to the "nAmam" of the elephant. Other animals like tiger, lion, dog, cat etc. are excluded.

4)TB guys keep blaming TB girls for the lack of opportunity to get a wife!
Click to expand...

That is the specialty of this forim.

5)TBs are constantly worried about culture erosion but I have really no idea what they are worried about cos no one is very specific about what they are really worried about.
Click to expand...

Most such topics are opened by the newbies who vanish after opening such a topics and the veterans take over to drum in their opinions.

6)TBs love Carnatic Music and not fond of Carnatic Fusion or Kuttu Songs!LOL
Click to expand...

In keeping with the trend of this forum, i have to ask do you have statistics to establish your claim? lol :)
 
prasad1 said:
What do you mean by universally accepted it, you and who else.
I know of tamil families who still to this day refuse to eat Garlic. I know of families that older generation refuses to travel outside of India. So there is no universal acceptance.
Click to expand...


Where did I say "Universally Accepted"?? Read properly before concluding on your own!

I said "Unanimously Accepted" among tambram. And by that, what I mean to say by listing the changes that I have listed in my post no. 5 is, these adjustments due to present scenario has not lead them go out of tambram circle.

People who still don't eat garlic and onions are very very rare. There are comparatively more in tambram priest community. These tambram preists are many who still are more orthodox and thus stick to same tambram priest community for marriage.

The people who chose not to eat garlic and onions have not considered other TB's who eat them as out of Brahmin circle nor look down upon them.

Avoiding garlic and onions has its purpose. It is not similar to eating flesh, eating blood and sucking bones. Garlic and onions facilitates rajasic tendencies and many don't like the smell and taste.


elsewhere you liked this comment, So you are speaking from both side.
Let us be clear which is your new position.

Traditions can not change, or traditions are ever evolving. If they are evolving then they will not be universal. You can not have it both ways.
Click to expand...



You are utterly confused!! And am not surprised.

There is a limit with in which only one can take efforts to help others from their confusions. Beyond limits, there is no use.
Click to expand...
 

My comments in blue!

zebra16 said:
You and others have left out "AvakkAi oorugAi". That should also be added i think.

maavadu or vaththak kuzhambu are better combinations for thayir chAdham.

Last night, I enjoyed thayir chAdham + vaththak kuzhambu in a reception dinner! :hungry:

Only extends to the "nAmam" of the elephant. Other animals like tiger, lion, dog, cat etc. are excluded.

Yes! Y nAmam or U nAmam. The one pointing down is Thenkalai - South is down in maps and hence easy to remember! :)

That is the specialty of this forum.
Because girls don't write about this :peep: and Ravi takes care of most of the posts!! :typing:

Most such topics are opened by the newbies who vanish after opening such a topics and the veterans take over to drum in their opinions.
The newbies leave because of this :drum:. Though at times it happens to be 'arachcha mAvu', we are NOT worried!!

In keeping with the trend of this forum, i have to ask do you have statistics to establish your claim?
I think I have posted many carnatic songs in a couple of threads in Music and Dance forum! :popcorn:
Click to expand...
 
Iyer@Infosys said:
CULTURE IS NOT A BELONGING OF ANY GROUP OR COMMUNITY.

Culture, a mix of ethics and etiquette, is common to the entire human race.

The customs, practices, norms of any closed group is perhaps being confused with the term culture.

Even among different people groups, customs, practices, norms, habits are volatile and dynamic. They change with time, space etc. For instance a Thanjavur-Tamil-Brahmin differs from a Palghat-Tamil-Brahmin who differs from Tirunelveli-Tamil-Brahmin and so on.

On a broader scale, Tamil-Brahmins (Iyer/Iyengar) differ from Malayalam-Brahmins (Nambudri) who in turn differ from Kannada-Brahmins (Battaru) and Telugu-Brahmins (Barpanalu).
Click to expand...

Brahmins are Brahmins, having association with different school of thoughts, different style of traditional dressing, different cuisine, differences in performing certain rituals based on some belief etc.etc.

Can you call all of them as same as NBs who have different eating habits, different customs/rituals, different traditional dressings etc.??


Culture of each ethnic group is ever the same. Humans attempt to change them to suit themselves and say there is nothing called culture.

But having changed the original color of a culture, as a doer, individually and collectively, don't say that I have changed because culture has changed.

Humans change the culture and form a new culture, from time to time.

During this changing process you can not expect all people of a set community to adopt to all the new found changes. There are people of that one set of community who would follow the old and only at one point of time may totally adapt to the new changes. Unless total shift takes place, people will be many who would value their culture and would stand by it.


Questioning, what is tambram culture, given the gradual changing process, and mocking on the culture is senseless to those who possibly stick to fundamentals of tradition, customs, rituals, habits etc and continue to relish them.

 
C RAVI said:
Brahmins are Brahmins, having association with different school of thoughts, different style of traditional dressing, different cuisine, differences in performing certain rituals based on some belief etc.etc.
Click to expand...

Dear Ravi,


As as far as I know from the interaction with my North Indian Brahmin relatives they feel "kinship" with North Indians even if they are Non Brahmin North Indians and do not feel "kinship" with a South Indian Brahmin.

So I think IyerJi is right in his post.
 
C RAVI said:
prasad1 said:
Where did I say "Universally Accepted"?? Read properly before concluding on your own!

I said "Unanimously Accepted" among tambram. And by that, what I mean to say by listing the changes that I have listed in my post no. 5 is, these adjustments due to present scenario has not lead them go out of tambram circle.

People who still don't eat garlic and onions are very very rare. There are comparatively more in tambram priest community. These tambram preists are many who still are more orthodox and thus stick to same tambram priest community for marriage.

The people who chose not to eat garlic and onions have not considered other TB's who eat them as out of Brahmin circle nor look down upon them.

Avoiding garlic and onions has its purpose. It is not similar to eating flesh, eating blood and sucking bones. Garlic and onions facilitates rajasic tendencies and many don't like the smell and taste.






You are utterly confused!! And am not surprised.

There is a limit with in which only one can take efforts to help others from their confusions. Beyond limits, there is no use.
Click to expand...

From your post#5
The TB community has unanimously accepted it.
Click to expand...

The people who chose not to eat garlic and onions have not considered other TB's who eat them as out of Brahmin circle nor look down upon them.
Click to expand...

My grand uncle will not eat in the household where they use Garlic even today. He considers them less than brahmin.
So before generalizing look around you.
Click to expand...
 
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