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Is conversion to hinduism possible for gents?

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BRAHMACHARI

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One of my colleagues, a woman born in a muslim family, is wedded to a hindu gent. Prior to marrying, she had to undergo conversion and the rituals were performed by Arya Samaj in Madras. Being a woman, she received the caste and gothram of her husband unhindered.

However, when it comes to a gent, is it possible for conversion to Hinduism?

If a gent wishes to convert to Hinduism, what caste and gothra will he be assigned? Can he choose the caste and gothra?

If a gent from a non-hindu religion wants to convert to brahmin caste, is it possible? Is it permissible? Will he be allowed to call himself a brahmin? Will he be permitted to have the gothra of his choice?

I watched a tamil film on Subrahmanya Bharathi, alias Bharathiyar, the great puratchi kavi/poet of the 20th century tamil nadu. in that film he performs yagnopaveetham to some non-brahmin boys and finally he declares them brahmins (dialogue by the actor: "indril irindhu neengal ellorum brahmanargal" interpreted "henceforth you are all brahmins"). Is it true that Bharathiyar performed such an act in his lifetime? If so what happened to those gents on whom he performed the yagna? Were they accepted into the brahmin fold? were their descendants accepted as brahmins? if it is not true that bharathi performed such an act, why did the Censor board not censor it? why was no appeal made against the producer/director of the film? why were they not sued?
 
BRAHMACHARI said:
One of my colleagues, a woman born in a muslim family, is wedded to a hindu gent. Prior to marrying, she had to undergo conversion and the rituals were performed by Arya Samaj in Madras. Being a woman, she received the caste and gothram of her husband unhindered.

However, when it comes to a gent, is it possible for conversion to Hinduism?

If a gent wishes to convert to Hinduism, what caste and gothra will he be assigned? Can he choose the caste and gothra?

If a gent from a non-hindu religion wants to convert to brahmin caste, is it possible? Is it permissible? Will he be allowed to call himself a brahmin? Will he be permitted to have the gothra of his choice?

I watched a tamil film on Subrahmanya Bharathi, alias Bharathiyar, the great puratchi kavi/poet of the 20th century tamil nadu. in that film he performs yagnopaveetham to some non-brahmin boys and finally he declares them brahmins (dialogue by the actor: "indril irindhu neengal ellorum brahmanargal" interpreted "henceforth you are all brahmins"). Is it true that Bharathiyar performed such an act in his lifetime? If so what happened to those gents on whom he performed the yagna? Were they accepted into the brahmin fold? were their descendants accepted as brahmins? if it is not true that bharathi performed such an act, why did the Censor board not censor it? why was no appeal made against the producer/director of the film? why were they not sued?
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Why does the gent want to change his religion to Hinduism?

If a Hindu changes his religion..everyone feels "Aiyoo Dharma is on the Decline...Hey Bhagavan Save Hindus..why are people converting..why is no one taking any steps to prevent conversion..Kadavule! Cinema stars are converting!" ..so likewise why should anyone who is not a Hindu by birth should be encouraged to abandon his Dharma and become a Hindu?

Whatever religion a person belongs too he should stick to it and there is no harm he explores other religions without the need to convert.

The same goes for women..I dont see the need for anyone to follow what her husband does...she can participate anything but she need not change her stance..one needs to have his/her own identity without being influenced by others.

I have female relatives who after marriage were told by their in laws that now they have to pray to this Devata only and not what they were praying to before and my female cousins actually switch camps and started praying only to their in laws choice of Devatas abandoning their ex Devatas!
 
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Dear Renu,

There are some religious practices in Hinduism and getting absorbed in the gOthram of husband is one of them.

Likewise the family deity of the man becomes the family deity of his wife. There is no harm is such conditions.
The society has to follow certain rules and people who talk about freedom - 24 x 7 x 365.25 need not follow them! :peace:
 
1. Arya samaj converts men too.
2. May be AS gives a name, gotra and varna after the ceremony.
3. Many non brahmins wore poonal till a couple of decades ago. Even now many wear at the time of marriage and while during tarpanam at sacred places - rameshwaram, holy river banks and seas shores.
4. Censor will not ban scenes that distort history. Only those scenes that are objected to by seculars or activists.
 
Raji Ram said:
Dear Renu,

There are some religious practices in Hinduism and getting absorbed in the gOthram of husband is one of them.

Likewise the family deity of the man becomes the family deity of his wife. There is no harm is such conditions.
The society has to follow certain rules and people who talk about freedom - 24 x 7 x 365.25 need not follow them! :peace:
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Dear RR ji,

This thread was inactive since 16/06/2014..so I thought I will activate it and its activated now.

RR ji I get what you mean but some families go overboard and ask their DILs to stop praying to their ex Devatas and pray only to husbands family Devata.


BTW this Gotram absorption I dont believe in it too cos whatever said and done DNA cant change and even a same Gotra person might not be able to donate blood or give an organ to another Sagotra person cos body genetics might not be compatible and even blood group might not be the same.

Just say a husbands blood group is B positive and wife is A negative..with all the Gotra change
both cant give each other blood! So when gross body cant change I feel that logically even the subtle body cant change..so where is the question of Gotra here?

Just to add..Gotra is all about the Y chromosome (what I call a Gotra Marker)..that is only passed from a male to his male child over the generations cos a male is XY and a female is XX..a male inherits his Y chromosome from his father only and his father in turn inherited it from his father in an unbroken rapid succession over the generation since human existence

A female does not have a Y chromosome at all so when she does not have a Y chromosome that means she technically does NOT have a Gotra marker ..so how does the question of a Gotra change actually come in the picture when a person does NOT even have the Y chromosome Gotra Marker to start with?

This shows that its only for identification purposes that a Female is considered be absorbed into her husband's Gotra and no change actually occurs at any level.So a female is technically HERSELF that she has one X from her father and one X from her mother and these X's have come from various mixtures of maternal ancestors and paternal ancestors and at times the "Crossover".

An XX will be able to be cloned and sustain themselves even if all males were to go extinct in this world..in other words the whole world would be female..but to produce or even clone a male..a male is needed cos only a male carries a Y chromosome..in other word males are prone to extinction but females can self sustain.


So in this case its the males who are the "weaker" sex and the females the actual "Shakti" in the evolution scale.

Final diagnosis: The Gotra Marker is just indicative of a very fragile Y Chromosome that is prone to extinction hence the effort made to maintain lineage..but we females no matter what we can never go extinct under normal conditions and our chromosome are not fragile..so why should a female change anything?

I have a feeling the ancient seers knew that the female of the XX kind is self sustaining and the XY male is very fragile in terms of existence and made sure men dominated over women in every way possible to ensure survival of the Y chromosomes.
 
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renuka said:
So in this case its the males who are the weaker sex and the females the Shakti in the evolution scale.
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Dear Renuka Madam,

Why are you raking up this controversy..No one is inferior..Let each do their job..Then every one will be happy
 
vgane said:
Dear Renuka Madam,

Why are you raking up this controversy..No one is inferior..Let each do their job..Then every one will be happy
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Dear Sir,

Its not a controversy or inferior or superior..its just factual analysis that a Gotra change for a woman does not really take place in view of absence of the Y chromosome (Gotra Marker) in a female.
 
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renuka said:
....... 1. This thread was inactive since 16/06/2014..so I thought I will activate it and its activated now.

2. RR ji I get what you mean but some families go overboard and ask their DILs to stop praying to their ex Devatas and pray only to husbands family Devata. ................
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1. Very true. We have activated many threads like this. :thumb:

2. That is really bad!
 
Hinduism as a way of life encompasses all kinds of traditions and has no concept of conversion built in.

It acknowledges that one is fine the way they are and guides one to listen to their own wisdom which is really a common or Samanya Dharma (which requires no scriptures).

One can choose to *adopt* the lifestyle of one of Hindu religious traditions. Anyone can adopt since no permission is needed to convert. There is no one to question anyone if they claim they are a Hindu.

Conversion can have bad consequence only if it is required by the theology of a religion

However Hinduism umbrella religion does not close the doors to anyone that wants to adopt the way of life of a Hindu.

The religion can include Saivism, Vaishnavism, as well as more modern traditions like those followed by Hare Krishna devotees or Satya Sai devotees or Iyappa devotees.

Anyone if qualified can become a Sannyasi who does not belong to any religion but initiated through Hindu rituals. There are many in the world that have become Sannyasis

There are really no issues except in the minds of people who love division ...
 
As per the Gita, women dont have a fixed caste either. Same about family name / last name.

They are like water which takes the shape of the containing vessel.

But I am sure the learned women of this forum will disagree. :)
 
biswa said:
As per the Gita, women dont have a fixed caste either. Same about family name / last name.

They are like water which takes the shape of the containing vessel.

But I am sure the learned women of this forum will disagree. :)
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Yes you are 100% right!

Since a female is XX and the Y Chromosome is the Gotra marker..that means technically a female has NO GOTRA and technically no caste either!

But if the Gotra is all about the Y chromosome then it means that no change of Gotra is possible for a person who has no Y chromosome (in cases of females cos there is no gotra to start with) or even in cases of adoption of males.

If Gotra change by adoption is possible that means the whole Y chromosome theory goes out of the door and a Gotra might just be an Alumni of Rishis after all..only then Gotra change is actually possible.



Now coming to the part where a female is like water that takes the shape of the containing vessel is the best description ever cos that is how the Universal Consciousness is described..that is the Same Universal Consciousness pervades the entire Universe..taking the shape of the containing vessesl that fill this world.
 
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sarang said:
1. Arya samaj converts men too.
2. May be AS gives a name, gotra and varna after the ceremony.
3. Many non brahmins wore poonal till a couple of decades ago. Even now many wear at the time of marriage and while during tarpanam at sacred places - rameshwaram, holy river banks and seas shores.
4. Censor will not ban scenes that distort history. Only those scenes that are objected to by seculars or activists.
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Dear Sarang Sir,

In assigning of the Gothra is the complication. On the one side every hindu belongs to a gotra, a descendancy. Gotra determines who is his/her forefather i.e. the one in whom the cycle of father's father's father's ... ends (or begins, if that would be the appropriate term). Gotra is not something which you can choose as per your whim and fancy. For instance if you want to choose to switch over to viswamitra gotra, that is not possible because unless and until you are a descendant of viswamitra, born of his son's son's son's son's ......., you cannot call yourself as descendant of viswamitra and hence you cannot belong to viswamitra gotra. Even when it comes to adoption, if you are adopting a boy as your son, hinduism in practice mandates that that boy belongs to the same gotra as yours. However when it comes to adopting a girl, you can adopt any girl belonging to any gotra. Even adopting a girl who is not a hindu is permitted, accepted. The girl automatically gets the gotra of the adopting/foster father.

But when it comes to conversion this complication arises.

Is hinduism, like judaism, a set of laws given only to a group of people of common ancestry? If true, who is that common ancestor?

As no one can convert into judaism, since it is given only to descendants of Yakoob, son of Isaak, son of Brhm (it excludes even descendants of ismail, son of Brhm and of Isavu, son of Isaak), could no gent convert into hinduism?

Even within hinduism, conversion does not seem possible. For instance can a dalit choose to convert to brahmin? Even if Arya Samaaj performs a yagnobaveetham on a dalit and declares him brahmin by giving him some gotra or varna, will the brahmin community accept him as brahmin? Would any brahmin give his daughter in marriage to the dalit-convert-brahmin recognizing his brahminhood?

When I was in elementary school, I brought one classmate of mine, whose father is a brahmin, whose grandfather was a temple priest, home. My grandmother did not allow him inside. His only sin, his mother was a non-brahmin.
 
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renuka said:
Why does the gent want to change his religion to Hinduism?

If a Hindu changes his religion..everyone feels "Aiyoo Dharma is on the Decline...Hey Bhagavan Save Hindus..why are people converting..why is no one taking any steps to prevent conversion..Kadavule! Cinema stars are converting!" ..so likewise why should anyone who is not a Hindu by birth should be encouraged to abandon his Dharma and become a Hindu?

Whatever religion a person belongs too he should stick to it and there is no harm he explores other religions without the need to convert.

The same goes for women..I dont see the need for anyone to follow what her husband does...she can participate anything but she need not change her stance..one needs to have his/her own identity without being influenced by others.

I have female relatives who after marriage were told by their in laws that now they have to pray to this Devata only and not what they were praying to before and my female cousins actually switch camps and started praying only to their in laws choice of Devatas abandoning their ex Devatas!
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Madam,

Thanks immensely for posting your first response to this thread.

We saw in General Discussions forum, thread started by Kailash Krishnan, why he wants to convert and that too to a brahmin caste and the complications involved.

Any person is free to choose his/her religion to follow. That is his/her will and wish. People convert for many reasons, some genuine, some spurious.

While conversion into christianity, islam, buddhism is possible since these religions accept all and sundry from other religions, why is it not possible for a gent to convert into hinduism? are there not complications involved? is it hence people are leaving hinduism?

As regards your concern about women being compelled to worship devatas of their husbands family even forsaking the devatas of their parents, if all-gods-are-one and all-religions-are-one theory is acceptable, then it does not make any difference whichever devata/deity they worship and hence it should not be a matter of concern at all. does not krishna say in the bagwadgita that any worship mady to any demi-god finally comes to him.
 
tks said:
Hinduism as a way of life encompasses all kinds of traditions and has no concept of conversion built in.

...
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Dear tks sir,

This is what everyone says about his/her religion sir. Even christians say 'christianity is not a religion, it is a way of life'. Even muslims say 'islam is not a religion, it is a way of life'.

I think it has become a fashion and trend for everyone to say theirs is not religion but a way of life. It started with christians. When the christian missionaries who were proselytizing in india were asked this question, 'why are you converting our people to christianity?', they replied saying, 'we are not converting hindus to another religion. christianity is not a religion but a way of life'. From thereon everyone caught up this phrase (or whatever you call it).

Honestly, are we practising what we preach? If no religion is religion but a way-of-life, a conversion should not be perceived as conversion but as choosing one's own way of life. it need not be passed on as tradition. every individual should be permitted to choose his/her own way-of-life. but are we doing that? are we not imposing our way-of-life on our children? has not a way-of-life been imposed/conditioned on us by our parents and we blindly subscribed to it never questioning its tenets, blindly accepting whatever it says as true, never investigating?

I think no one has any authority to impose on us a way-of-life. can an engineer impose his profession on his son and say, 'since i am an engineer you also ought to be an engineer'? can a physician impose his profession on his son and say, 'since i am a physician, you also ought to be a physician'? when we dont impose careers on our children, when we leave it to their choice, how can we impose a way-of-life on our children? But are we not imposing hinduism on our children bcoz it is religion?

If my understanding of hinduism is correct, a sannyasi is one who is spiritual, who has no material pursuits, has renounced all material desires, who is not attached to anything material, who is un-affected by fortune or adversity, who knows no sorrow, who knows no joy/happiness excepting in relating with God, for whom pleasure and pain do not exist, for whom whatever he sees is an illusion, who is selfless, who lives for others, who is at peace regardless of circumstances, unperturbed, who wants to be a channel of love, peace etc to the entire humankind, for whom everyone is one, for whom there is no religion etc. In that case there are Sannyasis among all people groups, among christian, muslims, buddhists, jains, even among businessmen, professionals, career men and women. I think, one does not have to subject himself/herself to any religious ritual to recline to the life of a Sannyasi. It does not require any qualification but choice, willingness, a realization of the falsehood of material pursuits, a nobe will and intent, a good heart, integrity, honesty etc. Please correct me if i am wrong.
 
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BRAHMACHARI said:
When I was in elementary school, I brought one classmate of mine, whose father is a brahmin, whose grandfather was a temple priest, home. My grandmother did not allow him inside. His only sin, his mother was a non-brahmin.
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Dear sir,

Going by this logic that means your grandmum would not have allowed Veda Vyasa,Sage Kapila(founder of Sankhya Philosophy) and Parashurama to enter the house too cos all 3 had Non Brahmin mothers.
 
BRAHMACHARI said:
As regards your concern about women being compelled to worship devatas of their husbands family even forsaking the devatas of their parents, if all-gods-are-one and all-religions-are-one theory is acceptable, then it does not make any difference whichever devata/deity they worship and hence it should not be a matter of concern at all. does not krishna say in the bagwadgita that any worship mady to any demi-god finally comes to him.
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Dear Sir,

Agreed..but the husband's family also should think on the same lines and allow the DIL to worship what she wishes along with the husband's family Devata since all forms are the same.
 
renuka said:
Dear sir,

Going by this logic that means your grandmum would not have allowed Veda Vyasa,Sage Kapila(founder of Sankhya Philosophy) and Parashurama to enter the house too cos all 3 had Non Brahmin mothers.
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Madam,

Going by this logic, perhaps your apprehension would have been true. Such was the austere severity and orthodoxy exercised by our grandparents. for them maintaining their purity, sanctity was more important even if it would cost dishonoring a king. Was not Zail Singh, ex-president, even while he was President of India, forbidden entry into guruvayoor temple? Was not Yesudass, since he is christian, forbidden entry into the same Guruvayoor temple where his songs on krishna are played 24 hours a day?
 
BRAHMACHARI said:
Even within hinduism, conversion does not seem possible. For instance can a dalit choose to convert to brahmin? Even if Arya Samaaj performs a yagnobaveetham on a dalit and declares him brahmin by giving him some gotra or varna, will the brahmin community accept him as brahmin? Would any brahmin give his daughter in marriage to the dalit-convert-brahmin recognizing his brahminhood?

.
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Dear Sir,

In this cases..why do you want to consider the investment of the Yagnopavit for a Dalit as changing his caste or origin?Why does he need to be given a Brahmin tag?

He does not have to be given a new identity..he can remain what he is but its just that he can accept a Yagnopavit as a new religious duty without giving it a caste tag.

Its his personal commitment to God ..so why does any human Brahmin community need to accept him into their fold or reject him? The Overlord for anything is God and not a human being.

Yagnopavit is a commited connection between God and its wearer and needs no human to come in between and neither does it need a caste tag.One is considered a twice born when one undertakes the commitment for spiritual life.

When it comes to marriage the Yagnopavit invested Dalit can choose a like minded girl preferably from his own community so that he can introduce a regulated life style to Dalits to improve their social and religious status cos what Hinduism needs is socially and spiritually uplifted humans and not merely creating Neo Brahmins.
 
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renuka said:
Dear Sir,

Agreed..but the husband's family also should think on the same lines and allow the DIL to worship what she wishes along with the husband's family Devata since all forms are the same.
Click to expand...

Madam,

In hinduism, husband's side's decision (more than husband's decision) is final and reigns supreme. If the husband is narrow-minded, the wife, though broad-minded, should act narrow-minded.
 
BRAHMACHARI said:
Madam,

In hinduism, husband's side's decision (more than husband's decision) is final and reigns supreme. If the husband is narrow-minded, the wife, though broad-minded, should act narrow-minded.
Click to expand...

Dear Brahmachari,

Where does religion enter in here.....This may be true for any other religion too...Look at how Shia/Sunnis are fighting in the name of Allah or how the Catholics & Protestants have fought in the name of Jesus

Do you have any axe to grind against Hinduism?
 
BRAHMACHARI said:
Dear tks sir,

This is what everyone says about his/her religion sir. Even christians say 'christianity is not a religion, it is a way of life'. Even muslims say 'islam is not a religion, it is a way of life'.

I think it has become a fashion and trend for everyone to say theirs is not religion but a way of life. It started with christians. When the christian missionaries who were proselytizing in india were asked this question, 'why are you converting our people to christianity?', they replied saying, 'we are not converting hindus to another religion. christianity is not a religion but a way of life'. From thereon everyone caught up this phrase (or whatever you call it).

Honestly, are we practising what we preach? If no religion is religion but a way-of-life, a conversion should not be perceived as conversion but as choosing one's own way of life. it need not be passed on as tradition. every individual should be permitted to choose his/her own way-of-life. but are we doing that? are we not imposing our way-of-life on our children? has not a way-of-life been imposed/conditioned on us by our parents and we blindly subscribed to it never questioning its tenets, blindly accepting whatever it says as true, never investigating?

I think no one has any authority to impose on us a way-of-life. can an engineer impose his profession on his son and say, 'since i am an engineer you also ought to be an engineer'? can a physician impose his profession on his son and say, 'since i am a physician, you also ought to be a physician'? when we dont impose careers on our children, when we leave it to their choice, how can we impose a way-of-life on our children? But are we not imposing hinduism on our children bcoz it is religion?

If my understanding of hinduism is correct, a sannyasi is one who is spiritual, who has no material pursuits, has renounced all material desires, who is not attached to anything material, who is un-affected by fortune or adversity, who knows no sorrow, who knows no joy/happiness excepting in relating with God, for whom pleasure and pain do not exist, for whom whatever he sees is an illusion, who is selfless, who lives for others, who is at peace regardless of circumstances, unperturbed, who wants to be a channel of love, peace etc to the entire humankind, for whom everyone is one, for whom there is no religion etc. In that case there are Sannyasis among all people groups, among christian, muslims, buddhists, jains, even among businessmen, professionals, career men and women. I think, one does not have to subject himself/herself to any religious ritual to recline to the life of a Sannyasi. It does not require any qualification but choice, willingness, a realization of the falsehood of material pursuits, a nobe will and intent, a good heart, integrity, honesty etc. Please correct me if i am wrong.
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Sri Brahmachari

You are not wrong - just too many thoughts in the post that are not aligned with my understanding. So I cannot do justice with a response. I will just offer a few comments since you wrote a long post and addressed to me. So I feel it is respectful to make an attempt at a response.

There is no religion called Hinduism - it is a name given by outsiders and invaders of India. People living on the other side of Sindhu River were called Sindhus and in Persian S is silent. So people living there were called Hindus.

There was a way of life that is referred to as Hinduism in recent history. Thousand years ago no one living in India knew they are Hindus!. There is much more to this than what I stated here.

All biblical religions have a start, a book , a God etc. Hinduism does not have a book like these religions and does not have any known start.

Do you know that Hinduism encompasses many ideas and beliefs including many forms of atheism right from Sri Sankara's time (many centuries ago)?

Today under the theism aspects of Hinduism there is Saivism, Vaishanvism, to name a few. There are modern ones like Iyappa worship as well Sathya Sai Baba devotees that also come under Hinduism.

Concept of conversion is not in any of these traditions. But no one is prevented from adopting the 'way of life'. Unlike modern Christianity and Islam which has conversion as a required part of theology there is no such concept in any tradition under the umbrella called Hinduism.

If someone wants to adopt Christianity there is no issue for a Hindu. It is only when the theology that professes exclusivity there is an issue ( "you are destined to Hell if you are not a Christian and saved" or "You are an infidel if you do not become a Muslim" and conversion is demanded by the prophet).

Unlike St Thomas Christians the modern converts are bent on using any Adharmic method to convert others - this is against the Hindu concept of a way of life.

The 'way of life' has deep significance in terms of what is taught (because it is a subject matter requiring understanding and not belief) and has nothing to do with what is being 'preached' (based on beliefs only) by others.

I think no one needs to impose any lifestyle on others. But using dishonest means and lacking integrity in converting others using manipulation t is harmful and eventually such practices will die out.

In that sense I have great respect for St Thomas Christians - they have no notion of manipulative conversion. They do not prohibit anyone from following them if that is done out of free will based choice by anyone

Let me stop here. I just wanted to make a few comments to communicate the great divide between your thinking and mine. Hence I am unable to offer more comments

All the best
 
renuka said:
Dear Sir,

In this cases..why do you want to consider the investment of the Yagnopavit for a Dalit as changing his caste or origin?Why does he need to be given a Brahmin tag?

He does not have to be given a new identity..he can remain what he is but its just that he can accept a Yagnopavit as a new religious duty without giving it a caste tag.

Its his personal commitment to God ..so why does any human Brahmin community need to accept him into their fold or reject him? The Overlord for anything is God and not a human being.

Yagnopavit is a commited connection between God and its wearer and needs no human to come in between and neither does it need a caste tag.One is considered a twice born when one undertakes the commitment for spiritual life.

When it comes to marriage the Yagnopavit invested Dalit can choose a like minded girl preferably from his own community so that he can introduce a regulated life style to Dalits to improve their social and religious status cos what Hinduism needs is socially and spiritually uplifted humans and not merely creating Neo Brahmins.
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Madam,

Your mentality and mindset seem to be super-human, too liberal. I sincerely appreciate and fully agree with your viewpoints. Even I wish every human being thinks like you do.

But not all of us are super-humans. Our minds have been corrupted over ages and centuries. We are not just humanbeings. We are civilized human beings. Our concept of civilization seems to be classification of our own selves. We are hindus, christians, muslims etc. We are Asians, Africans, Europeans, Americans and Australians. We are Indians, Chinese, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis. We are white, black, brown, mongoloid, colored etc. We are North Indians, South Indians etc. We are tamilians, kannadigas, malayalees etc. We are brahmins, gounders, nadars, chettiars, mudaliars, sakkili, pallan, parayan, dalit etc. We are iyers, iyengars, kurukkals etc. We are vadama, brahacharanam, vadakalai, thenkalai etc. WORST STILL, WE ARE TOUCHABLES AND UNTOUCHABLES.

A dalit wants to escape from harassment and wants to be a touchable. His only means and choice is to convert to a so-called-higher-caste. Hence he chooses to convert to the highest caste.

In India, unless you belong to a higher caste, you will not be accepted as higher in social status and religious status.

Madam, perhaps you are not aware of this, or perhaps you have not experienced all this since you are in a foreign country and visit india once in a while.

There are some communities which are still fighting against a separate tumbler used for them in snack kiosks, restaurants and hotels. they are being discriminated against and treated as sub-human beings. some maid-servants and man-servants are treated worse than even pet dogs in the house of their masters. they want to release themselves from these clutches. they are far from realizing their objectives. there is none to fight for their cause. perhaps hence they want to convert to other castes so that they will be accepted and not discriminated against.
 
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vgane said:
Dear Brahmachari,

Where does religion enter in here.....This may be true for any other religion too...Look at how Shia/Sunnis are fighting in the name of Allah or how the Catholics & Protestants have fought in the name of Jesus

Do you have any axe to grind against Hinduism?
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Dear Vgane Sir,

What I have stated in my post is an explanation for Mz. Renuka's query as to why not a husband also follow all-gods-are-one principle and permit his wife to worship her family deity. i have stated what is in common practise, is in vogue in many hindu families. what i meant to convey is hinduism is rigid. we are not discussing about any internal squabbles here within hinduism like in other religions. you seem to have misunderstood my post. i dont have any axe to grind against hinduism (whatever it means!). perhaps you are a hindu fanatic too sensitive to perceive any remark on hindu practise as criticism or axing to grind or whatever. you have the freedom to be a fanatic. but i am not a hindu fanatic. i am for peaceful reformation within hinduism.
 
tks said:
Sri Brahmachari

You are not wrong - just too many thoughts in the post that are not aligned with my understanding. So I cannot do justice with a response. I will just offer a few comments since you wrote a long post and addressed to me. So I feel it is respectful to make an attempt at a response.

............

Let me stop here. I just wanted to make a few comments to communicate the great divide between your thinking and mine. Hence I am unable to offer more comments

All the best
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Dear tks sir,

we are only trying to understand each other and my intention is not to confront or counter-argue. i am no intellectual to do that. i am ordinary of average intelligence.

i am aware hinduism is a term coined by the british to refer collectively to the assortment of beliefs and faith systems prevailing in the erstwhile hindustan as is their habit to coin terms for all and sundry things.

let us say there were different ways-of-life prevailing in india.

you mentioned 'hinduism is a way of life that encompasses all kinds of traditions and has no concept of conversion built in'; 'anyone can adopt since no permission is needed to convert'. I wish whatever you mentioned is true. but is it the prevalent condition in our way of life sir? i wonder.

i fail to understand why we have so called upper-caste and lower-caste in our way-of-life, why it was ordained on us to marry only among our caste when anyone can adopt or even adapt to a different way-of-life, why brahmins are considered the most superior among hindus. why would brahmin parents consider it an abomination or sin or transgression or iniquity when their son or daughter marries someone not a brahmin? there are so many obvious questions raised sir, when we perceive the path we have chosen as a way-of-life, but no convincing explanations. perhaps we need to redefine our way-of-life or reform sir.
 
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