Is conversion to hinduism possible for gents?

[Kuvalayavalli]

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Madam,

Your mentality and mindset seem to be super-human, too liberal. I sincerely appreciate and fully agree with your viewpoints. Even I wish every human being thinks like you do.

But not all of us are super-humans. Our minds have been corrupted over ages and centuries. We are not just humanbeings. We are civilized human beings. Our concept of civilization seems to be classification of our own selves. We are hindus, christians, muslims etc. We are Asians, Africans, Europeans, Americans and Australians. We are Indians, Chinese, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis. We are white, black, brown, mongoloid, colored etc. We are North Indians, South Indians etc. We are tamilians, kannadigas, malayalees etc. We are brahmins, gounders, nadars, chettiars, mudaliars, sakkili, pallan, parayan, dalit etc. We are iyers, iyengars, kurukkals etc. We are vadama, brahacharanam, vadakalai, thenkalai etc. WORST STILL, WE ARE TOUCHABLES AND UNTOUCHABLES.

A dalit wants to escape from harassment and wants to be a touchable. His only means and choice is to convert to a so-called-higher-caste. Hence he chooses to convert to the highest caste.

In India, unless you belong to a higher caste, you will not be accepted as higher in social status and religious status.

Madam, perhaps you are not aware of this, or perhaps you have not experienced all this since you are in a foreign country and visit india once in a while.

There are some communities which are still fighting against a separate tumbler used for them in snack kiosks, restaurants and hotels. they are being discriminated against and treated as sub-human beings. some maid-servants and man-servants are treated worse than even pet dogs in the house of their masters. they want to release themselves from these clutches. they are far from realizing their objectives. there is none to fight for their cause. perhaps hence they want to convert to other castes so that they will be accepted and not discriminated against.

Dear Brahmachari,

Please do not jump to incorrect conclusion, like some others in this forum, that I am playing 2nd fiddle to Renuka by my following post.

GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE.

We are almost always in agreement with each other in our thoughts, views, minds etc. When I differ in my views i would not hesitate to pronounce it.

Renuka is absolutely right in raising her queries. I would go one step further and ask, why would a so-called-dalit perceive himself/herself as dalit and why not perceive himself/herself as just another human being? why would he or she bother to convert to other caste and please others? so what if he/she is discriminated against! let them prove themselves to the society, ignore the societies ill-treatment and carry on with their noble mission if any. thankfully every government is competing to offer them favours by means of reservations etc. let them capitalize on these benefits, exploit them positively and raise higher in financial status. after all in india financial status determines status. if you are rich, you are not a dalit or harijan. people would die to touch you, take photographs with you, display it in the drawing rooms of their houses for every visitor to see and feel proud about it. they would even name their sons and daughters after you.

By converting to another caste or religion, a dalit cannot win acceptance in india. conversion does not make a dalit a better human being. Perhaps a dalit may be lured into conversion in which case he is financially better. Perhaps hence dalits convert to other religions. I have seen many dark-skinned Johns and Peters accepted into brahmin families but not a non-brahmin hindu.

In Kerala there is a saying about who can enter a Nambudiri's house which when transliterated 'aache, pooche, naai, nazareyan' which when translated means, 'insects, flies, dogs and christian'.

To answer your question you raised in your first post, A GENT CANNOT CONVERT TO HINDUISM, let alone to Brahminism. There is no ritual, nor any mechanism, not even with Arya Samaj to perform such a conversion. Perhaps a woman could convert, like the muslim woman you mentioned in your first post, since a woman receives her caste and gotra from her husband. Some may quote what happens in ISKCON, where foreigners sport saffron robes, change their names to something and suffix 'dasa', call themselves convert to Vaishnavism etc. Even they dont find acceptance in hinduism. no foreign-convert ISKCOINITE is permitted entry into any hindu temple. there were controversies when some foreign-convert ISKCONITes were denied entry into Puri temple and Srirangam temple which were debated in electronic media and many other forums but never resolved.

 

[renuka]

Madam,

Your mentality and mindset seem to be super-human, too liberal. I sincerely appreciate and fully agree with your viewpoints. Even I wish every human being thinks like you do.

But not all of us are super-humans. Our minds have been corrupted over ages and centuries. We are not just humanbeings. We are civilized human beings. Our concept of civilization seems to be classification of our own selves. We are hindus, christians, muslims etc. We are Asians, Africans, Europeans, Americans and Australians. We are Indians, Chinese, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis. We are white, black, brown, mongoloid, colored etc. We are North Indians, South Indians etc. We are tamilians, kannadigas, malayalees etc. We are brahmins, gounders, nadars, chettiars, mudaliars, sakkili, pallan, parayan, dalit etc. We are iyers, iyengars, kurukkals etc. We are vadama, brahacharanam, vadakalai, thenkalai etc. WORST STILL, WE ARE TOUCHABLES AND UNTOUCHABLES.

A dalit wants to escape from harassment and wants to be a touchable. His only means and choice is to convert to a so-called-higher-caste. Hence he chooses to convert to the highest caste.

In India, unless you belong to a higher caste, you will not be accepted as higher in social status and religious status.

Madam, perhaps you are not aware of this, or perhaps you have not experienced all this since you are in a foreign country and visit india once in a while.

There are some communities which are still fighting against a separate tumbler used for them in snack kiosks, restaurants and hotels. they are being discriminated against and treated as sub-human beings. some maid-servants and man-servants are treated worse than even pet dogs in the house of their masters. they want to release themselves from these clutches. they are far from realizing their objectives. there is none to fight for their cause. perhaps hence they want to convert to other castes so that they will be accepted and not discriminated against.

Dear Brahmachari ji,

I had studied in India for 5 years and worked there for 1 year.
I had seen a lot when I was there.

I am surprised that you think I am a super human. Isn't my mind set what Hinduism has prescribed? Isn't seeing the same Atma in every human being the hall mark of being a Hindu?

Many of us humans especially Indians could have been following culture and tradition blindly to a great extent but that does not mean that we cant ever change our mindset.

Going by that why should anyone need to change his identity to escape discrimination?

Thats like asking someone to undergo cosmetic surgery and get a new face!

Why cant the rest of humanity who feel they are privileged by virtue of birth or social standing be educated to respect every human being that walks this world? Brahmin or Dalit both should know to respect each other..Pride and Prejudice in my opinion is not what Hinduism prescribes.

As a Hindu we are supposed to give up all identity and attachments eventually...If we still want to keep holding on to something forever than I wonder why many still choose to call themselves Hindus.

So in my opinion my mindset is very very human not a super human.

I know how Dalits are discriminated..I have seen it with my own eyes in India.

When I was in college there used to be a Dalit little boy who used to follow his mum to work in the hostel..she used to clean the bathrooms and while waiting for his mum I would buy him food and let him sit at my room desk and let him draw and play.

I used to teach him some ABC too.

There was also a Konkani Brahmin lady who ran a small shop in the hostel and she used to tell me "why are you allowing a Dalit boy to sit at your desk and play with your things"

I told the Brahmin lady that "I see that you have no problems receiving money from his mother when she buys things from you so why you asking me not to let the kid play in my room?"

Then one day a Non Brahmin friend of mine who came to my room was surprised to see the kids at my desk and she told me "ask that kid to get out or else wont step into your room cos he is a Dalit"

I slammed the door on my friends face and told her I would never want to be friends with her again.

I am one person who does not tolerate discrimination of any kind...I believe in respecting everyone the way they are and they do not have to change their identity.

As I said earlier..I repeat myself :What Hinduism needs is socially and spiritually uplifted humans and not merely creating Neo Upper Castes.

 

[sarang]

Wrong. Iskcon members are allowed in srirangam and puri temples. Individual stray cases do not define the norm. In puri one white man was stopped by security doubting his credentials. All temple managements advice devotees to contact their temple office when in trouble.

Dear Brahmachari,

Please do not jump to incorrect conclusion, like some others in this forum, that I am playing 2nd fiddle to Renuka by my following post.

GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE.

We are almost always in agreement with each other in our thoughts, views, minds etc. When I differ in my views i would not hesitate to pronounce it.

Renuka is absolutely right in raising her queries. I would go one step further and ask, why would a so-called-dalit perceive himself/herself as dalit and why not perceive himself/herself as just another human being? why would he or she bother to convert to other caste and please others? so what if he/she is discriminated against! let them prove themselves to the society, ignore the societies ill-treatment and carry on with their noble mission if any. thankfully every government is competing to offer them favours by means of reservations etc. let them capitalize on these benefits, exploit them positively and raise higher in financial status. after all in india financial status determines status. if you are rich, you are not a dalit or harijan. people would die to touch you, take photographs with you, display it in the drawing rooms of their houses for every visitor to see and feel proud about it. they would even name their sons and daughters after you.

By converting to another caste or religion, a dalit cannot win acceptance in india. conversion does not make a dalit a better human being. Perhaps a dalit may be lured into conversion in which case he is financially better. Perhaps hence dalits convert to other religions. I have seen many dark-skinned Johns and Peters accepted into brahmin families but not a non-brahmin hindu.

In Kerala there is a saying about who can enter a Nambudiri's house which when transliterated 'aache, pooche, naai, nazareyan' which when translated means, 'insects, flies, dogs and christian'.

To answer your question you raised in your first post, A GENT CANNOT CONVERT TO HINDUISM, let alone to Brahminism. There is no ritual, nor any mechanism, not even with Arya Samaj to perform such a conversion. Perhaps a woman could convert, like the muslim woman you mentioned in your first post, since a woman receives her caste and gotra from her husband. Some may quote what happens in ISKCON, where foreigners sport saffron robes, change their names to something and suffix 'dasa', call themselves convert to Vaishnavism etc. Even they dont find acceptance in hinduism. no foreign-convert ISKCOINITE is permitted entry into any hindu temple. there were controversies when some foreign-convert ISKCONITes were denied entry into Puri temple and Srirangam temple which were debated in electronic media and many other forums but never resolved.

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

Dear Brahmachari ji,

I had studied in India for 5 years and worked there for 1 year.

I had seen a lot when I was there.

I am surprised that you think I am a super human. Isn't my mind set what Hinduism has prescribed? Isn't seeing the same Atma in every human being the hall mark of being a Hindu?

Many of us humans especially Indians could have been following culture and tradition blindly to a great extent but that does not mean that we cant ever change our mindset.

Madam,

Even I wish your mindset is what hinduism has prescribed. but unfortunately it is not. if you can corroborate your statement quoting from any hindu scripture as evidence, i would be most obliged. I wish 'seeing the same atma in every human being' is hallmark of being a hindu, but that is not what is being practised by hindus. if that is being practised, there would not exist caste/untouchability among hindus. casteism/untouchability would be non-existent.

Going by that why should anyone need to change his identity to escape discrimination?

Thats like asking someone to undergo cosmetic surgery and get a new face!

Madam,

A beef-eating white skinned foreigner is not an untouchable to hindus. but a beef-eating dalit, for the mere reason that he eats beef, is an untouchable in entire india. in india also color of your skin plays an important role in social acceptance. color of your skin is also an identity in india.

Why cant the rest of humanity who feel they are privileged by virtue of birth or social standing be educated to respect every human being that walks this world? Brahmin or Dalit both should know to respect each other..Pride and Prejudice in my opinion is not what Hinduism prescribes.

Wishful thinking. I wish the entire human race falls in line with your thinking. but unfortunately hindus don't practise this. absolutely nothing short of elimination of casteism can bring your wish to reality, can make your wish to become true. we take pride in our prejudice, in our divisions. we call it our way of life and not religion.

As a Hindu we are supposed to give up all identity and attachments eventually...If we still want to keep holding on to something forever than I wonder why many still choose to call themselves Hindus.

'holding on to something forever' is hinduism in practise madam. it requires of us to raise to super-human-being level to give up all identity and attachments. Not many brahmins, even in this forum, would agree with you madam.

would any brahmin convert to another religion?

So in my opinion my mindset is very very human not a super human.

I know how Dalits are discriminated..I have seen it with my own eyes in India.

When I was in college there used to be a Dalit little boy who used to follow his mum to work in the hostel..she used to clean the bathrooms and while waiting for his mum I would buy him food and let him sit at my room desk and let him draw and play.
I used to teach him some ABC too.

There was also a Konkani Brahmin lady who ran a small shop in the hostel and she used to tell me "why are you allowing a Dalit boy to sit at your desk and play with your things"

I told the Brahmin lady that "I see that you have no problems receiving money from his mother when she buys things from you so why you asking me not to let the kid play in my room?"

Then one day a Non Brahmin friend of mine who came to my room was surprised to see the kids at my desk and she told me "ask that kid to get out or else wont step into your room cos he is a Dalit"

I slammed the door on my friends face and told her I would never want to be friends with her again.

I am one person who does not tolerate discrimination of any kind...I believe in respecting everyone the way they are and they do not have to change their identity.

As I said earlier..I repeat myself :What Hinduism needs is socially and spiritually uplifted humans and not merely creating Neo Upper Castes.

Madam, honestly answer my question. if you were born and raised in an orthodox brahmin family, especially an iyer or iyengar family, would you have acted in same manner?

 

[Vaagmi]

.........no foreign-convert ISKCOINITE is permitted entry into any hindu temple. there were controversies when some foreign-convert ISKCONITes were denied entry into Puri temple and Srirangam temple which were debated in electronic media and many other forums but never resolved......

Wrong. Iskcon members are allowed in srirangam and puri temples. Individual stray cases do not define the norm. In puri one white man was stopped by security doubting his credentials. All temple managements advice devotees to contact their temple office when in trouble.

Sarangji,

That was only a kite flown. Many such kites are flown here-like samasrayanam not being accepted by any one among Iyengars, like Nammazhwar being a saivite savant etc., This is just one more. Let the kites fly. It is kite flying season now because monsoon has just arrived. It is fun watching them. LOL.

 

[tks]

Sarangji,

That was only a kite flown. Many such kites are flown here-like samasrayanam not being accepted by any one among Iyengars, like Nammazhwar being a saivite savant etc., This is just one more. Let the kites fly. It is kite flying season now because monsoon has just arrived. It is fun watching them. LOL.

I have not seen kite flying in ages .. Here it will be fun for someone to fly another kite with an avatara that says "I am a good bet for conversion, I am a bit confused .. is there anyone out here who can preach some sense into me" .. then watch have more fun. ..

 

[sarang]

As things stand now, one can become a naturalised hindu by just calling himself 'hindu'. It is easier to become a brahmin, as there is no need to produce caste certificate and caste validation certificate when applying for seats (education, election etc.) and for jobs.

 

[Raji Ram]

As things stand now, one can become a naturalised hindu by just calling himself 'hindu'. It is easier to become a brahmin, as there is no need to produce caste certificate and caste validation certificate when applying for seats (education, election etc.) and for jobs.

The million $ question is whether anyone from other caste would like to declare himself as a brahmin while applying for seats!!

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

As things stand now, one can become a naturalised hindu by just calling himself 'hindu'. It is easier to become a brahmin, as there is no need to produce caste certificate and caste validation certificate when applying for seats (education, election etc.) and for jobs.

Dear Sarang sir,

Whatever you have mentioned may be easy for an argument but do you think it is so easy in practical life? Will the hindu community accept an outsider as one among them just because he orally declares and confesses to have embraced hinduism?

Are we not living in an era where brahmins are being unjustly harassed by means of Reservations etc etc with none to fight for their cause? Priesthood remains the only domain of brahmins. Even in that domain, the non-brahmins want to invade and rob brahmins of whatever little means of livelihood and sustenance. Do you really think anyone would want to embrace brahminism just to escape the rigmarole of certificates required for some purpose, excepting of course cases like Kailash Krishnan who wants to convert to marry a brahmin sweetheart?

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

Dear Brahmachari ji,

I had studied in India for 5 years and worked there for 1 year.
I had seen a lot when I was there.

I am surprised that you think I am a super human. Isn't my mind set what Hinduism has prescribed? Isn't seeing the same Atma in every human being the hall mark of being a Hindu?

Many of us humans especially Indians could have been following culture and tradition blindly to a great extent but that does not mean that we cant ever change our mindset.

Madam,

Even I wish your mindset is what hinduism has prescribed. but unfortunately it is not. if you can corroborate your statement quoting from any hindu scripture as evidence, i would be most obliged. I wish 'seeing the same atma in every human being' is hallmark of being a hindu, but that is not what is being practised by hindus. if that is being practised, there would not exist caste/untouchability among hindus. casteism would be non-existent.

Going by that why should anyone need to change his identity to escape discrimination?

Thats like asking someone to undergo cosmetic surgery and get a new face!

Madam,

A beef-eating white skinned foreigner is not an untouchable to hindus. but a beef-eating dalit, for the mere reason that he eats beef, is an untouchable in entire india. in india also color of your skin plays an important role in social acceptance. color of your skin is also an identity in india.

Why cant the rest of humanity who feel they are privileged by virtue of birth or social standing be educated to respect every human being that walks this world? Brahmin or Dalit both should know to respect each other..Pride and Prejudice in my opinion is not what Hinduism prescribes.

Wishful thinking. I wish the entire human race falls in line with your thinking. but unfortunately hindus don't practise this. absolutely nothing short of elimination of casteism can bring your wish to reality, can make your wish to become true. we take pride in our prejudice, in our divisions. we call it our way of life and not religion.

As a Hindu we are supposed to give up all identity and attachments eventually...If we still want to keep holding on to something forever than I wonder why many still choose to call themselves Hindus.

'holding on to something forever' is hinduism in practise madam. it requires of us to raise to super-human-being level to give up all identity and attachments. Not many brahmins, even in this forum, would agree with you madam.

would any brahmin convert to another religion?

So in my opinion my mindset is very very human not a super human.

I know how Dalits are discriminated..I have seen it with my own eyes in India.

When I was in college there used to be a Dalit little boy who used to follow his mum to work in the hostel..she used to clean the bathrooms and while waiting for his mum I would buy him food and let him sit at my room desk and let him draw and play.

I used to teach him some ABC too.

There was also a Konkani Brahmin lady who ran a small shop in the hostel and she used to tell me "why are you allowing a Dalit boy to sit at your desk and play with your things"

I told the Brahmin lady that "I see that you have no problems receiving money from his mother when she buys things from you so why you asking me not to let the kid play in my room?"

Then one day a Non Brahmin friend of mine who came to my room was surprised to see the kids at my desk and she told me "ask that kid to get out or else wont step into your room cos he is a Dalit"

I slammed the door on my friends face and told her I would never want to be friends with her again.

I am one person who does not tolerate discrimination of any kind...I believe in respecting everyone the way they are and they do not have to change their identity.

As I said earlier..I repeat myself :What Hinduism needs is socially and spiritually uplifted humans and not merely creating Neo Upper Castes.

Madam, honestly answer my question. if you were born and raised in an orthodox brahmin family, especially an iyer or iyengar family, would you have acted in same manner?

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

Dear Brahmachari,

You seem to be genuinely in search of ways and means to find resolution for a cryptic issue of converting non-hindu to hinduism,understanding the intricacies involved.

Perhaps you have a non-hindu friends who wants to convert to hinduism appreciating its tenets, who genuinely wants to practice hinduism and yet remain secular unlike the foreign-convert-ISKCONITES. Indeed if he/she wants to convert to Vaishnavism and follow a spiritual life, they can join ISKCON which is an easy solution.

But I really wonder how you are going to succeed in your pursuit with some skeptics and cynics in this forum whose sole objective seems to be to pass sarcastic remarks like 'kite-flying', 'avatar' etc, trying to bully a junior-member that you are; skeptics and cynics who find pleasure jibing at slip-of-the-finger type error which were corrected later, notwithstanding, whose aim seems to be to contaminate threads in this forum with their mean remarks just to have fun.

I advise you better approach Arya Samaj themselves, seeking a resolution for the Gotra and Caste issue from them. But I doubt if even they would have a resolution. My best wishes to you any way!!

My best advise, of course, would be for you to advise your non-hindu friends to remain who they are and yet appreciate the hindu tenets and principles and avoid getting entangled into controversies of caste and gotra, of sects and sub-sects etc.

Please understand hinduism and casteism are eternally wedded to each other. The Varnashrama Dharma is at the heart of and is the core of and essence of hinduism which uniquely distinguishes hinduism from other religions and distinctly identifies hinduism among other religions. The Varnashrama Dharma is an indispensable ingredient of hinduism.

 

[Raji Ram]

Where is the OP?? :spy:

 

[Raji Ram]

Only Hindus are bothered about caste or what?? When I attended a non Hindu wedding,

'the bread and wine' were refused to one section of people by the priests. It was strange

because that section was the bride's side!!

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

Only Hindus are bothered about caste or what?? When I attended a non Hindu wedding,

'the bread and wine' were refused to one section of people by the priests. It was strange

because that section was the bride's side!!

That is a child of hinduism sir (or madam, whosoever)!!!. Does not hinduism encompass all ways-of-life!!! Is not hinduism the 'Mother of all religions' as stated by Vivekananda in his address during the World Confluence of Religions? That is not discrimination. That is unity in diversity.

 

[renuka]

Dear Brahmachari ji,

To cut the story short..tell who ever who want to convert into Hinduism NOT to do so cos technically Religion does not really exists cos the word Matam means an opinion.

Matam does not mean Religion

Just like how each one of us have opinions everyone else in the past had their opinions and to have an ego boost man made a lifestyle called religion.

Even when you read any ISCKON book you would be sick and tired hearing the word Mayavadhi used to describe followers of the Advaita school of thought.

Bhakti based philosophers felt Bhakti is the only time tested way to reach God and they somehow created an impression that Jnana based philosophers are cold hearted sans a beating heart.

So if you ask me so called personal opinions between the masters of the past and present and may be the future will still be tainted with ego.

Ego is almost impossible to get rid off in any human..the human ego forms the basis of our existence and it will go to any extend to defend itself and adapt with the flow to ensure survival of species and in this cases survival of school of though (a.k.a Religion)


So my since advise to anyone wanting to change themselves to anything which they are not is just be happy that you are well and alive..when our mind is idle we start to search for something that we do not have or something we are not.

A dying man does not think of changing his religion.... he thinks of only survival..even the best of bhakthas who falls into the water will hold on to a piece of straw to save him from drowning...he does not actually think of religion or even God when his life is in acute danger...only when he is save he thinks of God..that is the human mind..the instinct to survive.

We have been wired to survive regardless of the presence or absence of religion.

So the next time when anyone thinks "Is it possible to convert into this religion or this caste etc" try to picture death...it makes us realize what we really are..HUMAN and nothing else.

 

[Vaagmi]

That is a child of hinduism sir (or madam, whosoever)!!!. Does not hinduism encompass all ways-of-life!!! Is not hinduism the 'Mother of all religions' as stated by Vivekananda in his address during the World Confluence of Religions? That is not discrimination. That is unity in diversity.

That is a child of Hinduism ok. Are all other practises gems free from the influence of Hinduism? Whose child was the practice of burning christians of rival faction at stakes, carried out years back in England? May be there was some kind of a mother religion- paganism or animism practised by the majority of people in England at that time and so as a child of that religion/s Christianity carried out those burnings. LOL. History is harsh and bitter indeed. And that too was an unity in diversity perhaps. LOL.

 

[Vaagmi]

But I really wonder how you are going to succeed in your pursuit with some skeptics and cynics in this forum whose sole objective seems to be to pass sarcastic remarks like 'kite-flying', 'avatar' etc, trying to bully a junior-member that you are; skeptics and cynics who find pleasure jibing at slip-of-the-finger type error which were corrected later, notwithstanding, whose aim seems to be to contaminate threads in this forum with their mean remarks just to have fun.

I wrote about the kite-flying and so I record this. To say that Iskconites were not admitted into the prominent temples in India-an untruth as was proved by Sarangji-does not fall under the category of "slip-of-the-finger-type". When someone tries to bring in that excuse it is clearly an attempt at cover up of a blunder or a deleberate kite-flying attempt which was seen through by other members who are well informed. Bullies, skeptics, cynics-- are all wildly hitting in the air in protest and that is quite amusing. I will continue to come here to point out such childish attempts which are nothing but veiled attempt at putting down Hinduism. This is a forum where only members who understand not just the words but also the intentions come to discuss topics. The cloak is too thin indeed. If I commit such blunders I would just say sorry and move on.​

 

[tks]

I wrote about the kite-flying and so I record this. To say that Iskconites were not admitted into the prominent temples in India-an untruth as was proved by Sarangji-does not fall under the category of "slip-of-the-finger-type". When someone tries to bring in that excuse it is clearly an attempt at cover up of a blunder or a deleberate kite-flying attempt which was seen through by other members who are well informed. Bullies, skeptics, cynics-- are all wildly hitting in the air in protest and that is quite amusing. I will continue to come here to point out such childish attempts which are nothing but veiled attempt at putting down Hinduism. This is a forum where only members who understand not just the words but also the intentions come to discuss topics. The cloak is too thin indeed. If I commit such blunders I would just say sorry and move on.​

If an adult wants to study or even adopt another tradition that is up to them.

The issue in today's world is that we have gentle religions - all those that come under the umbrella of Hinduism, Judaism, Budhism etc.
Then there are religions who have exclusivity built into their basic theology and hence conversion is a required part in order to achieve the promise of a 'heaven' or paradise for the followers.

Actually I know in Islam the prophet's directive is to spread the religion (conversion) when in majority. I do not know how conversion became a key part of the theology of modern Christians. The St Thomas Christians from the Christ's era do not have this disease.

When a theology requires conversion it is like a cancer and tries to spread while damaging everything in its way. It is a form of highest violence.

Ordinary Muslim and Christians I have come across in USA (and I do not mean the serious minded evangelical fanatics or other fundamentalists) they tend to be peace loving and have seemingly mutual respect for the tradition of others.

In India there seem to yet another 'religion' which is an offshoot practices of the 'converted' types who seem to go after others with a vengeance. It seems they use deception, and lack of integrity approaches to spread the cancer with the belief that the end (eventual heaven for themselves ) justifies the means (lack of integrity). The original sin now are these types, and how does one save themselves from such people?

 

[sarang]

I suggest you revisit our puranas, itihasas, vibrant Tamil and Sanskrit literature, historical records to convince yourself that brahmanad were active in most of the professions. Today too brahmins are and active in diverse professions. And all this can be done without diluting brahmana dharma. Think about it.

Dear Sarang sir,

Whatever you have mentioned may be easy for an argument but do you think it is so easy in practical life? Will the hindu community accept an outsider as one among them just because he orally declares and confesses to have embraced hinduism?

Are we not living in an era where brahmins are being unjustly harassed by means of Reservations etc etc with none to fight for their cause? Priesthood remains the only domain of brahmins. Even in that domain, the non-brahmins want to invade and rob brahmins of whatever little means of livelihood and sustenance. Do you really think anyone would want to embrace brahminism just to escape the rigmarole of certificates required for some purpose, excepting of course cases like Kailash Krishnan who wants to convert to marry a brahmin sweetheart?

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

Dear Brahmachari ji,

To cut the story short..tell who ever who want to convert into Hinduism NOT to do so cos technically Religion does not really exists cos the word Matam means an opinion.

Matam does not mean Religion

Just like how each one of us have opinions everyone else in the past had their opinions and to have an ego boost man made a lifestyle called religion.

Even when you read any ISCKON book you would be sick and tired hearing the word Mayavadhi used to describe followers of the Advaita school of thought.

Bhakti based philosophers felt Bhakti is the only time tested way to reach God and they somehow created an impression that Jnana based philosophers are cold hearted sans a beating heart.

So if you ask me so called personal opinions between the masters of the past and present and may be the future will still be tainted with ego.

Ego is almost impossible to get rid off in any human..the human ego forms the basis of our existence and it will go to any extend to defend itself and adapt with the flow to ensure survival of species and in this cases survival of school of though (a.k.a Religion)


So my since advise to anyone wanting to change themselves to anything which they are not is just be happy that you are well and alive..when our mind is idle we start to search for something that we do not have or something we are not.

A dying man does not think of changing his religion.... he thinks of only survival..even the best of bhakthas who falls into the water will hold on to a piece of straw to save him from drowning...he does not actually think of religion or even God when his life is in acute danger...only when he is save he thinks of God..that is the human mind..the instinct to survive.

We have been wired to survive regardless of the presence or absence of religion.

So the next time when anyone thinks "Is it possible to convert into this religion or this caste etc" try to picture death...it makes us realize what we really are..HUMAN and nothing else.

Madam,

Sometimes I am tempted to think if Mz. Kuvalayavalli and you are one and the same person in 2 different identities. Both are almost alike in opinions, viewpoints, mentality and mindset.

Indeed I had responded to an earlier post #27 of yours clicking 'Reply with quote' but for reasons unknown to me it has been subjected to moderation. Perhaps it should appear shortly in this thread.

I think there was a genuine purpose in evolution of Religions (or opinions or ways-of-life if you choose to refer that way). In addition to the survival instinct, the god-fearing and god-pleasing instinct existed and hence a desire to gratify these instincts. Perhaps a group of wise men decided to bring order in society and organize matters related to god-belief, faith etc, solemnize/ritualize events in our lives viz birth, marriage, death etc and hence initiated systems, procedures, customs etc which were subjected to numerous changes by following generations to suit the times and eventually termed religion, given a name. Someone chose to embrace/follow this way-of-life and passed it on to future generations who multiplied and became a community. Perhaps different such sets of opinions and ways-of-life existed among different people-groups in different geographical locations. These groups of people perhaps travelled overseas, met with other people groups, exchanged their views/opinions, mingled amongst each other, learnt from each other, borrowed from each other and further refined their faith-belief-systems. Some decendant of some such religions perhaps differed in their opinions and founded their own religion and appealed to a large patronage eg: buddhism, jainism etc.

When differences erupted to the point of contradiction and desperate attempts to establish supremacy over each other, they fought battles in the name of religion. Perhaps the purpose of founding the Religions was not served or the followers strayed away from the fundamental principles and basic tenets and adulterated their religions.

Some who felt, the religion passed on to them by their forefathers was not suiting them, perhaps wished to and converted to other religions.

So the next time when anyone thinks "Is it possible to convert into this religion or this caste etc" try to picture death...it makes us realize what we really are..HUMAN and nothing else.

This can come only from a highly liberated soul, a parama aatma, sounds almost godly to me.

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

That is a child of Hinduism ok. Are all other practises gems free from the influence of Hinduism? Whose child was the practice of burning christians of rival faction at stakes, carried out years back in England? May be there was some kind of a mother religion- paganism or animism practised by the majority of people in England at that time and so as a child of that religion/s Christianity carried out those burnings. LOL. History is harsh and bitter indeed. And that too was an unity in diversity perhaps. LOL.

When the ardent, faithful devotees of the mother-of-all-religions set a precedent for others to follow by:
# brutally burning alive an innocent australian missionary with his 2 sons while they were asleep for the reason that he was doing a yeoman service among the lepers in orissa
# demolishing the babri masjid
# by torching numerous churches in gujarat
# killing numerous people in orissa, who show the other face when smitten on one
# by killing numerous missionaries in bihar to the extent that bihar is termed 'burial ground of missionaries'

perhaps some such devotee of the same 'mother-of-all-religions' would have set the same precedent for someone to commit such atrocities in england

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

If .... The St Thomas Christians from the Christ's era do not have this disease.

Sir,

Could you please elaborate on this 'St. Thomas Christians from Christ's era...'?

If what I learnt from history is right, St. Thomas converted many to christianity and hence he was murdered by his enemies.

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

Dear Brahmachari,

You seem to be genuinely in search of ways and means to find resolution for a cryptic issue of converting non-hindu to hinduism,understanding the intricacies involved.

Perhaps you have a non-hindu friends who wants to convert to hinduism appreciating its tenets, who genuinely wants to practice hinduism and yet remain secular unlike the foreign-convert-ISKCONITES. Indeed if he/she wants to convert to Vaishnavism and follow a spiritual life, they can join ISKCON which is an easy solution.

But I really wonder how you are going to succeed in your pursuit with some skeptics and cynics in this forum whose sole objective seems to be to pass sarcastic remarks like 'kite-flying', 'avatar' etc, trying to bully a junior-member that you are; skeptics and cynics who find pleasure jibing at slip-of-the-finger type error which were corrected later, notwithstanding, whose aim seems to be to contaminate threads in this forum with their mean remarks just to have fun.

I advise you better approach Arya Samaj themselves, seeking a resolution for the Gotra and Caste issue from them. But I doubt if even they would have a resolution. My best wishes to you any way!!

My best advise, of course, would be for you to advise your non-hindu friends to remain who they are and yet appreciate the hindu tenets and principles and avoid getting entangled into controversies of caste and gotra, of sects and sub-sects etc.

Please understand hinduism and casteism are eternally wedded to each other. The Varnashrama Dharma is at the heart of and is the core of and essence of hinduism which uniquely distinguishes hinduism from other religions and distinctly identifies hinduism among other religions. The Varnashrama Dharma is an indispensable ingredient of hinduism.

Madam,

Did your husband convert to an Iyengar or did you convert to christian?

Was your marriage performed as per hindu traditions or in a church?

I am just interested to know, no offence meant.

 

[tks]

Sir,

Could you please elaborate on this 'St. Thomas Christians from Christ's era...'?

If what I learnt from history is right, St. Thomas converted many to christianity and hence he was murdered by his enemies.

You may have more facts than I do. For biblical religions history is very important while elements of Hinduism are not history-centric.

The only thing I can understand is what people do today and what they believe in. The St Tomas Christians of today do not have a concept or requirement of conversion. They *try* to live the teachings of Jesus Christ many of which are aligned with Dharma.

I know a few St Thomas Christians and my knowledge is based on what they told me (what I know of them in terms of their character)

 

[renuka]

Madam,

Sometimes I am tempted to think if Mz. Kuvalayavalli and you are one and the same person in 2 different identities. Both are almost alike in opinions, viewpoints, mentality and mindset.

Dear Brahms,

You can be assured that Kuvs and I are NOT the same person..you can check with moderator and he will surely tell you..Kuvs and I are not the same person thru IP address mapping.