நான் ஒரு இந்து Outstanding article by Kannadasan.

[mkrishna100]

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நான் ஒரு இந்து Outstanding article by Kannadasan.

நான் ஒரு இந்து Outstanding article by Kannadasan.

???? ??? ????? | Sage of Kanchi

எண்ணங்கள் ஆயிரம் என்ற நூலிலிருந்து!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! நான் ஒரு இந்து.
இந்து என்பதில் நான் பெருமைப்படுகிறேன்.
நான் எல்லா மதத்தினரையும் மனமார நேசிக்கிறேன்; ஆனால் இந்துவாகவே வாழ விரும்புகிறேன்.
நான் கடவுளை நம்புகிறேன்; அவனைக் காட்டியவனைப் போற்றுகிறேன்; அந்தக் கடவுளைக் கல்லிலும் கருத்திலும் கண்டு வணங்குகிறேன்.
ஆன்மா இறைவனோடு ஒன்றிவிடும்போது, அமைதி இருதயத்தை ஆட்சி செய்கிறது.
நாணயம், சத்தியம், தர்மம் இவற்றின் மீது நம்பிக்கை பிறக்கிறது.
நேரான வாழ்க்கையை இருதயம் அவாவுகிறது.
பாதகங்களை, பாவங்களை கண்டு அஞ்சுகிறது.
குறிப்பாக ஒரு இந்துவுக்குத் தன் மத அமைப்பின் மூலம் கிடைக்கும் நிம்மதி, வேறு யாருக்கும் கிடைப்பதில்லை.
கடைசி நாத்திகனையும், அது ஆத்திகன் என்றே அரவணைத்துக் கொள்கிறது.
என்னை திட்டுகிறவன்தான் அடிக்கடி நினைத்துக் கொள்கிறான்; ஆகவே அவன்தான் முதல் பக்தன்” என்பது இறைவனின் வாக்கு.
இந்து மதத்தைப்போல் சகிப்புத்தன்மை வாய்ந்த மதம் உலகில் வேறு எதுவும் இல்லை .
நீ பிள்ளையாரை உடைக்கலாம்; பெருமாள் நாமத்தை அழிக்கலாம்; மதச்சின்னங்களை கேலி செய்யலாம்; எதைச் செய்தாலும் இந்து சகித்துக் கொள்கிறான்.
ஏதோ பரம்பரையாகவே பகுத்தறிவாளனாகப் பிறந்தது போல் எண்ணிக் கொண்டு, பாத்திரத்தை நிரப்புவதற்காகவே சாஸ்திரத்தைக் கேலி செய்யும் பகுத்தறிவுத் தந்தைகள் இஸ்லாத்தின் மீதோ, கிறிஸ்துவத்தின் மீதோ கை வைக்கட்டும் பார்க்கலாம்.
கடந்த நாற்பது வருசங்களில் ஒரு நாளாவது அதற்கான துணிவு ஏற்பட்டதாக தெரியவில்லையே!
பாவப்பட்ட இந்து மதத்தை மட்டுமே தாக்கித் தாக்கி, அதை நம்புகிற அப்பாவிகளிடம் ‘ரேட்டு ‘ வாங்கிச் சொத்துச் சேர்க்கும் ‘பெரிய ‘ மனிதர்களைத்தான் நான் பார்த்திருக்கிறேன்.
அவர்கள் பேசுகிற நாத்திக வாதம், அவர்கள் ‘குடும்பம் நடத்தும் வியாபாரம்’ என்பதை அறியாமல், வாழ்கையையே இழந்து நிற்கும் பல பேரை நான் அறிவேன்.
பருவ காலத்தில் சருமத்தின் அழகு மினுமினுப்பதைப் போல், ஆரம்ப காலத்தில் இந்த வாதத்தைக் கேட்டு ஏமாந்தவர்களில் நானும் ஒருவன்.
நடிகையின் ‘மேக் அப்’ பைக் கண்டு ஏமாறுகிற சராசரி மனிதனைப்போல், அன்று இந்த வாதத்தைக் கேட்டு ஏமாந்தவர்களில் நானும் ஒருவன்.
அந்த கவர்ச்சி எனக்கு குறுகிய காலக் கவர்ச்சியாகவே இருந்தது இறைவனின் கருணையே!
என்னை அடிமை கொண்ட கண்ணனும், ராமனும் இன்று சந்திர மண்டலத்துக்குப் பயணம் போகும் அமெரிக்காவையே அடிமைக்கொண்டு, ஆன்மீக நெறியில் திளைக்க வைத்திருக்கிறார்கள்.
அமெரிக்காவை விடவா ஈரோடு பகுத்தறிவில் முன்னேறிவிட்டது?
வேண்டுமானால் ‘பணத்தறிவில் ‘ முன்னேறிவிட்டது என்று சொல்லலாம்.
ஆளுங் கட்சியாக எது வந்தாலும் ஆதரித்துக் கொண்டு, தன் கட்சியும் உயிரோடிருப்பதாகக் காட்டிக் கொண்டு, எது கொடுத்தாலும் வாங்கிக் கொண்டு வாழ்கையை சுகமாக நடத்துவதற்கு, இந்த நாத்திக போலிகள் போட்டிருக்கும் திரை, பகுத்தறிவு!
உலகத்தில் நாத்திகம் பேசியவன் தோற்றதாக வரலாறு உண்டே தவிர, வென்றதாக இல்லை.
இதை உலகமெங்கும் இறைவன் நிரூபித்துக் கொண்டு வருகிறான்.
அவர்கள் எப்படியோ போகட்டும்.
இந்த சீசனில் வாழ்ந்து கொண்டிருக்கும் சில மனிதர்கள் கோவில்களுக்கு முன்னால் பகுத்தறிவு விளையாட்டு விளையாடிப் பார்க்கலாம் என்று கருதுகிறார்கள். இதை அனுமதித்தால், விளைவு மோசமாக இருக்கும்.
நம்பிக்கை இல்லாதவன் கோவிலுக்கு போக வேண்டாம். நம்புகிறவனை தடுப்பதற்கு அவன் யார்?
அப்பாவி இந்துக்கள் பேசாமல் இருக்க இருக்கச் சமுதாய வியாபாரிகள் கோவிலுக்கு முன் கடை வைக்க தொடங்குகிறார்கள்.
வெள்ளைக்காரனின் கால்களை கட்டிப்பிடித்துக் கொண்டு ‘போகாதே போகாதே என் கணவா ‘ என்று பாடியவர்களுக்கு நாட்டுப் பற்று எங்கிருந்து வரும்?
நாட்டு பற்று இல்லாதவர்களுக்கு தெய்வப் பற்று எங்கிருந்து வரும்?
தெய்வப் பற்று இல்லாதவர்களுக்கு நாணயம், நேர்மை இவற்றின் மீது நம்பிக்கை எங்கிருந்து வரும்?
இந்த நாலரை கோடி மக்களில் நீங்கள் சலித்துச் சலித்து எடுத்தாலும், நாலாயிரம் நாத்திகர்களைக் கூட காண முடியாது.
பழைய நாத்திகர்களை எல்லாம் நான் பழனியிலும், திருப்பதியிலும் சந்தித்துக் கொண்டிருக்கிறேன்!
ஆகவே இந்த காரியங்களுக்கு யாரும் துணை வர மாட்டார்கள்.
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பெரியார் சேலத்தில் நடத்தியது போல் சென்னையிலும் ஒரு ஆபாச ஊர்வலம் நடத்த முயன்ற போது கண்ணதாசன் அவர்களால் எழுதப்பட்ட கட்டுரை இது. இதை தொடர்ந்து அந்த முயற்சி கைவிடப்பட்டது.s

 

[sangom]

Shri Krishna sir,

Kindly excuse me for giving my comments in English since I am not able to write my thoughts in Tamil, though I can read and understand it.

பருவ காலத்தில் சருமத்தின் அழகு மினுமினுப்பதைப் போல், ஆரம்ப காலத்தில் இந்த வாதத்தைக் கேட்டு ஏமாந்தவர்களில் நானும் ஒருவன்.
நடிகையின் ‘மேக் அப்’ பைக் கண்டு ஏமாறுகிற சராசரி மனிதனைப்போல், அன்று இந்த வாதத்தைக் கேட்டு ஏமாந்தவர்களில் நானும் ஒருவன்.
அந்த கவர்ச்சி எனக்கு குறுகிய காலக் கவர்ச்சியாகவே இருந்தது இறைவனின் கருணையே!

Shri Kannadasan ought to have explained what kind of glowing skin (சருமத்தின் அழகு மினுமினுப்பதைப் போல்) and what kind of 'make-up' did he experience in his younger days by being a non-believer or atheist. And if I were he, I would allow all people to be attracted by the glow and make-up of atheism.

From the look of what he has written, the late Shri Kannadasan (may we use KD as the acronym?) seems to have 'filled his vessel' (பாத்திரத்தை நிரப்புவதற்காகவே) by being an atheist while the going was good and when he found that the religious "make-up" would be better for him, he switched sides! In this respect, I have heard that A.L. Muthiah a.k.a Kannadasan was one of the founder members of the DK and he was drawn to it because of its anti-brahmin agenda, and aspired to rise politically through the DK route; but, after 10 years or so in some cinema publications, when he could not make any progress in life, he decided to 'ditch' the Kazhagam and go to the other extreme of being a devout hindu and all that. Any way I find, "He himself had time and again reminded the general public that if one were to learn how to live life then he or she should not read his open book." (Insights: Greatness about Kannadasan) and that will include that people should not ape him in his opportunistic switching of sides, too.

Bringing in Christianity, Islam, etc., is one of the usual 'tricks' of hindu theists. But those religions are more like cadre-based parties in which the priesthood rules. Even so there are some non-conformists and atheists in those religions too. Questioning the truth or falsehood about a religion-projected god, is but natural to human beings especially when the religion-prescribed discipline does not yield any favourable results in life. I can well concede KD's atheist life as well as his turning to be a devout hindu later. But by making profit out of his reconversion, he has sunk to very low levels of culture, according to me. A good certificate from such a person does not add to the greatness of the religion but only lowers it.

 

[Nara]

....Bringing in Christianity, Islam, etc., is one of the usual 'tricks' of hindu theists. But those religions are more like cadre-based parties in which the priesthood rules.

Dear sangom, these arguments have not changed a whole lot over the years, in fact they have remained surprisingly the same. They can be easily summarized as follows:

• Hindus are tolerant
• Nonbelievers won't criticize Islam or Christianity
• Most people are believers, only handful are nonbelievers
• They have been atheists but by god's grace saw the light
• Atheists secretly pray to god

To KD Americans are very rational people, which is ironically understandable considering what KD thinks is rational. Like KD with respect to Hindus in India, in the U.S. Christians think their religion is under assault by pseudo-secularists, aka sickularists. The religiously motivated right wing in both countries are alike in many ways -- RSS/BJP in India and Republicans/Christian Right in the U.S.

regards ....

 

[கால பைரவன்]

....Bringing in Christianity, Islam, etc., is one of the usual 'tricks' of hindu theists.

The validity of an argument depends on the context. when the self-styled vanguards of secularism and/or rationalism support communal discrimination if it favors religions other than Hinduism or if they selectively oppose hindu beliefs and customs under the guise of opposing irrationality, there is nothing wrong in bringing in Christianity, Islam etc..

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Sir,


In my view, let us not look at Rishi Moolam or Nadhi Moolam of such good articles.

In Bhagavad Gita, The Lord has declared to the Hindu in His incarnat6ion as Krisha: "I am in every religion as the thread through a string of pearls. Wherever thou seest extraordinary holiness and extraordinary power raising and purifying humanity, know thou that I am there".

It is not out of place to mention about the story of Arunagirinathar, Tamil Poet who composed the Thirupugazh on Lord Muruga..

Keep posting such texts

　

With regards

 

[Naina_Marbus]

Shri Krishna sir,
.....
he has sunk to very low levels of culture, according to me. A good certificate from such a person does not add to the greatness of the religion but only lowers it.

Not about any issues of culture or religion, but about a serious and destructive psychopathological behaviour displayed here.

To find mistakes in something someone has done or said, to show that it is not good or not correct – is a psychopathological disease.

The following disorders serve as a metaphor for such behavior.

Dermatillomania or Excoriation disorder is an impulse control disorder characterizedby the repeated urge to pick at one's own skin, often to the extent that damage is caused. Research suggests that the urge to pick is similar to an obsessive compulsive disorder.

The inability to control the urge to pick at one’s own skin is similar to the urge to compulsively pull one's own hair– a disorder known as trichotillomania.

 

[sangom]

The validity of an argument depends on the context. when the self-styled vanguards of secularism and/or rationalism support communal discrimination if it favors religions other than Hinduism or if they selectively oppose hindu beliefs and customs under the guise of opposing irrationality, there is nothing wrong in bringing in Christianity, Islam etc..

Just as there are some atheists or agnostics who are born as hindus, there are some atheists/agnostics in other religions like Christianity, Islam and may be the remaining religions too. But none of these non-hindu atheists are seen coming into hindu communities - in real life or in web forums - to spread their anti-religion views, plus, in Islam even its own non-believers do not dare publicly air their views probably because of fear of reprisal. Thus the atheists are not superhuman but only ordinary mortals who fear for their lives just as the believers or the devout do, and they will not take foolhardy steps. Of course if the religious people take reprisal of their own atheists it is an intra-religion affair and cannot be helped.

What atheists/agnostics say is to point out the exploitation at the intellectual, mental, social, economic/financial areas of life by the religions in the name of God whereas, even to date, humanity has no evidence to prove that there is a God of the kind hinduism or Christianity proposes, nor that such god ever laid down the said religions to be followed by mankind. (I am omitting Islam because I feel that in a comparative analysis it will be more probable that a Supreme Power who is formless and cannot be worshipped in idols or images, may be lying at the root of this world/universe; this agrees much with the concept and practice of the Muslims.)

Note:

My agnosticism is not caused by rationalism nor aimed at secularism. But I could not help being "self-styled" because that seemed the only honest method to inform the members/readers of a forum such as this one. My agnosticism arose as a result of studying the hindu religion and deeply pondering about its so-called truths.

 

[Nara]

....The inability to control the urge to pick at one’s own skin is similar to the urge to compulsively pull one's own hair– a disorder known as trichotillomania.

I am curious to know, what is the name of the disorder that drives some people to always respond with ad hominems as if they know nothing else?

 

[sangom]

Not about any issues of culture or religion, but about a serious and destructive psychopathological behaviour displayed here.

To find mistakes in something someone has done or said, to show that it is not good or not correct – is a psychopathological disease.

The following disorders serve as a metaphor for such behavior.

Dermatillomania or Excoriation disorder is an impulse control disorder characterizedby the repeated urge to pick at one's own skin, often to the extent that damage is caused. Research suggests that the urge to pick is similar to an obsessive compulsive disorder.

The inability to control the urge to pick at one’s own skin is similar to the urge to compulsively pull one's own hair– a disorder known as trichotillomania.

Shri Marbus sir,

I agree with you that many of us suffer from such psychopathological disorders without even realizing that we do so. At least I am happy that I did not display it until Shri Krishna sir brought up expressly through a thread titled "நான் ஒரு இந்து Outstanding article by Kannadasan.", whereas you found out my innocuous post in response to Shri Krishna sir's and had to "find mistakes in something someone has done or said, to show that it is not good or not correct"

I feel these psychopathological diseases are double-edged swords, kind of, and that is why people generally say that "a doctor of madness soon becomes a mad doctor." !!

 

[Naina_Marbus]

I am curious to know, what is the name of the disorder that drives some people to always respond with ad hominems as if they know nothing else?

You are such an expert at (ir)rational analysis, why don't you figure it out?

 

[Naina_Marbus]

At least I am happy that I did not display it until Shri Krishna sir brought up expressly through a thread titled "நான் ஒரு இந்து Outstanding article by Kannadasan.",

Dear Sir: don't delude yourself. You have been displaying this kind of responses all along. So, your response to Shri Krishna was ripe for a repartee.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sir: don't delude yourself. You have been displaying this kind of responses all along. So, your response to Shri Krishna was ripe for a repartee.

Anyway welcome to the club of psychopathological patients since the display of such kind of responses from you can also be found from the archives.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Just as there are some atheists or agnostics who are born as hindus, there are some atheists/agnostics in other religions like Christianity, Islam and may be the remaining religions too. But none of these non-hindu atheists are seen coming into hindu communities - in real life or in web forums - to spread their anti-religion views, plus, in Islam even its own non-believers do not dare publicly air their views probably because of fear of reprisal. Thus the atheists are not superhuman but only ordinary mortals who fear for their lives just as the believers or the devout do, and they will not take foolhardy steps. Of course if the religious people take reprisal of their own atheists it is an intra-religion affair and cannot be helped.
What atheists/agnostics say is to point out the exploitation at the intellectual, mental, social, economic/financial areas of life by the religions in the name of God whereas, even to date, humanity has no evidence to prove that there is a God of the kind hinduism or Christianity proposes, nor that such god ever laid down the said religions to be followed by mankind. (I am omitting Islam because I feel that in a comparative analysis it will be more probable that a Supreme Power who is formless and cannot be worshipped in idols or images, may be lying at the root of this world/universe; this agrees much with the concept and practice of the Muslims.)
Note:
My agnosticism is not caused by rationalism nor aimed at secularism. But I could not help being "self-styled" because that seemed the only honest method to inform the members/readers of a forum such as this one. My agnosticism arose as a result of studying the hindu religion and deeply pondering about its so-called truths.

Dear Sangom Sir,

You seem to have belabored to explain that there is no need for "hindu" atheists to question Christianity or Islam in order for them to criticize hinduism. I do not dispute this point. No one can force anyone else to talk about a subject matter. However, the hindus have the right to be treated equally just as the Christians or Muslims or people belonging to any other religion in all matters. Therefore, when a political organization or a government selectively attacks their beliefs and customs, they have the right to object and it is natural to bring in comparisons to the treatment of people belonging to other religions even if the government or the organization is made of people born into the hindu religion. That is why I said one cannot simply dismiss this argument as a trick, its validity depends on the context etc.

I feel your comparison of hindu atheists to Christian or muslim atheists is not valid. [Of late, there have been some inappropriate comparisons made in this forum]. Because the subject matter of the OP is about attack on hindu beliefs and customs, it is appropriate to compare the hindu atheists who attack hindu religion to the Christian and muslim fundmentalists who also attack the hindu religion along the same lines (Your point about Islamic concept of formless God, as opposed to exploitation of mankind in the name of idol worship, is but on example). What more? The hindu atheists seem to be offended in the same manner as the Christian and muslim fundamentalists with the mere mention of their own religions. It is natural to suspect collusion between hindu atheists and non-hindu fundamentalists. It is true we cannot make hindu atheists to talk about non-hindu fundamentalism, but we can point out the fact that not only do they not condemn non-hindu fundamentalism but also they are offended if they are made aware of this fact.

Agnosticism or atheism is just a position. There is nothing special about it. Not many are bothered with such claims. Secularism is a principle. Rationality is a quality. There is interest in knowing whether people, who make such tall claims of adhering to these principles or having such qualities, do have these qualities in reality.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom Sir,

You seem to have belabored to explain that there is no need for "hindu" atheists to question Christianity or Islam in order for them to criticize hinduism. I do not dispute this point. No one can force anyone else to talk about a subject matter. However, the hindus have the right to be treated equally just as the Christians or Muslims or people belonging to any other religion in all matters. Therefore, when a political organization or a government selectively attacks their beliefs and customs, they have the right to object and it is natural to bring in comparisons to the treatment of people belonging to other religions even if the government or the organization is made of people born into the hindu religion. That is why I said one cannot simply dismiss this argument as a trick, its validity depends on the context etc.

I feel your comparison of hindu atheists to Christian or muslim atheists is not valid. [Of late, there have been some inappropriate comparisons made in this forum]. Because the subject matter of the OP is about attack on hindu beliefs and customs, it is appropriate to compare the hindu atheists who attack hindu religion to the Christian and muslim fundmentalists who also attack the hindu religion along the same lines (Your point about Islamic concept of formless God, as opposed to exploitation of mankind in the name of idol worship, is but on example). What more? The hindu atheists seem to be offended in the same manner as the Christian and muslim fundamentalists with the mere mention of their own religions. It is natural to suspect collusion between hindu atheists and non-hindu fundamentalists. It is true we cannot make hindu atheists to talk about non-hindu fundamentalism, but we can point out the fact that not only do they not condemn non-hindu fundamentalism but also they are offended if they are made aware of this fact.

Agnosticism or atheism is just a position. There is nothing special about it. Not many are bothered with such claims. Secularism is a principle. Rationality is a quality. There is interest in knowing whether people, who make such tall claims of adhering to these principles or having such qualities, do have these qualities in reality.

Dear Shri KB sir,

I am (still) under the impression that this thread is not about attack on hinduism but the fitness certificate issued favouring hinduism by a "born again hindu"! On that basis I considered how valuable or otherwise was that certificate.

Secularism by definition is a doctrine or standpoint which does not recognise religion and eschews all religious considerations. While individuals may claim they are secular but at the same time claim to belong to one religion or another, are actually misleading people about what is true secularism. Perhaps only people who are truly atheists can be secular; others claiming to be staunch hindus/christians cannot really be secular.

Secularism and rationality are unrelated imo.

 

[Nara]

I am (still) under the impression that this thread is not about attack on hinduism but the fitness certificate issued favouring hinduism by a "born again hindu"! On that basis I considered how valuable or otherwise was that certificate.

Dear sangom, the motivation of OP poster and the motivation of KD writing this essay are not the same, IMO. The OP is about feeling good about his/her religion, feeling good about defending what passes for Hinduism, and putting down those who criticize Hinduism in the most ferocious way possible. That it is done by one of the most famous icons of Tamil cinema and a former atheist is sweet indeed, to them.

But, this is not what prompted KDs' venting, even though he may have had sympathies for these folks. He was apparently incensed with Erode for his public display of contempt for the gods KD came to love. The footnote in the OP confirms this. So, it was more of a reaction to the planned anti-Hindu procession in Chennai rather than an unprompted attack on atheists in general or even the secularists who are not atheists.

I feel KD failed to recognize the motivation behind the display of contempt for Brahmanical gods, all he saw was insults to the gods he came to revere. He couldn't understand that this was a tactic to unchain the downtrodden from the weight of lowly status the Brahminical jati hierarchy imposed on almost all Tamils. The goal was to demystify the Brahmanical gods and show to the common masses that they have the same dignity as anyone else including the high and mighty Brahmins, and that the Brahminical gods do not have any power to force them into inescapable bondage and contempt. This worked. Many didn't take the atheism too seriously, but they loved the message of self-respect.

So, the aim of this movement was to inculcate self-respect in the minds of the masses and the tactic to achieve that end was unrelenting criticism of Brahminical Hinduism and their gods. Islam and Christianity, though equally irrational and disdain-worthy, were not the primary obstacle to freeing the enslaved. So, for KD to expect the movement to take on Islam and Christianity is to reveal a fundamental misunderstanding of the objective of the movement.

While KD's reaction to the planned procession is understandable on a personal level, it is misplaced -- he couldn't viewe it in a broader context. Criticizing the minorities is easy and to a large extent cowardly, but to taken on the majority/dominant needs true courage of conviction.

regards ...

p.s. I love KD, IMO, he is one of the greatest Tamil cine song writers.

 

[tbs]

hi KB sir,

Agnosticism or atheism is just a position. There is nothing special about it. Not many are bothered with such claims. Secularism is a principle. Rationality is a quality. There is interest in knowing whether people, who make such tall claims of adhering to these principles or having such qualities, do have these qualities in reality.


these are kind of mental disorder....not just a position.....like gay sex.....which is not very common in everybody....may be like

some personal/vengence turn into atheist/agnosticism....nobody born as atheist/agnostic.....

 

[Vaagmi]

post # 15 for reference:

I feel KD failed to recognize the motivation behind the display of contempt for Brahmanical gods, all he saw was insults to the gods he came to revere.

Again the prejudices are played out while discussing a topic. The gods have to be segregated as brahminical and non-brahmanical gods so that your punching bag can be hung out conveniently.

He couldn't understand that this was a tactic to unchain the downtrodden from the weight of lowly status the Brahminical jati hierarchy imposed on almost all Tamils. The goal was to demystify the Brahmanical gods and show to the common masses that they have the same dignity as anyone else including the high and mighty Brahmins, and that the Brahminical gods do not have any power to force them into inescapable bondage and contempt. This worked. Many didn't take the atheism too seriously, but they loved the message of self-respect.

What a tactic! When did jati hierarchy become brahminical jati hierarchy? The answer to this question lies with that Erode mind set. Only the jati hierarchy in Hinduism could be talked about because that only will fill the hundis placed for collection. A lebbai, a Rowther and a pattaani being at loggerheads or a nadar and a thevar being at loggerheads with caste as the underlying motive in other well-known religions in India has to be papered over or not to be recognized. Those differences do not affect the Indian society perhaps. There is no answer to the question why demystify only the socalled brahmanical gods and leave the other ‘saviours’ and ‘all powerful’s called gods by others. The answer is not very difficult to get. It is just that there is scope here for selling a lot of hatred against a small helpless, peace loving, non-violent but easily identifiable community while that can not be done there. If attempted the Erode would have lost its hands or legs or both with its wounds being nursed by its money or money amma. It was ‘hatred opium’ sales pure and simple. The cellophane packing material was atheism to make it glitter. The packing material can be designed in any way and that is what that opium salesman did. ‘ Many did not take atheism seriously’ because packing material is never taken seriously – it goes to the dustbin. It is the content, the opium, which satisfies the craving, titillates, takes you to a high before letting you go hurtling down and leads to demand for more of it. It is a pity that even today we have intellectuals who look at that devilish mind called Erode without understanding the damage it did to the Tamil polity.
It is said “and show to the common masses that they have the same dignity as anyone else including the high and mighty Brahmins,..” as if the dignity of the panchamans was denied only by that 2% of the population and the rest of the 90 percent were all gems. The readers understand what a prejudice can do to facts.

So, the aim of this movement was to inculcate self-respect in the minds of the masses and the tactic to achieve that end was unrelenting criticism of Brahminical Hinduism and their gods. Islam and Christianity, though equally irrational and disdain-worthy, were not the primary obstacle to freeing the enslaved.

Pray how this conclusion(highlighted) was reached. If it is a product or manifestation of the prejudices of the member, I wont be interested in following it up for argument.

So, for KD to expect the movement to take on Islam and Christianity is to reveal a fundamental misunderstanding of the objective of the movement.

The members here are ready to believe KD who was very active earlier in the deluded crowd and came out than the arm-chair intellectuals who do not know anything about the true motives of their Thanthai. It comes straight from the mouth of the horse.

While KD's reaction to the planned procession is understandable on a personal level, it is misplaced if only he could have viewed it in a broader context. Criticizing the minorities is easy and to a large extent cowardly, but to taken on the majority needs true courage of conviction.

Lo. What a clever use of words to sell ……,you know what.
1)Criticising minorities in this case would not have been easy because Erode knew the consequences. Also he was not sincere about the criticism in the first place. It was only the packing material. Why make it a cause for serious repercussions.
2)Saying “but to taken on the majority needs true courage of conviction” involves a clever attempt at hoodwinking readers here. Who is the majority? The 2%? Or is it a nuance introduced that what is talked about here is just atheism and not the jati-discrimination menace. If it is the latter it does stand out as just playing with words in the given context here. People here are not dumbs.

There are no put downs here. I respect the individual's right to post his views. A straight and simple reply without mincing words is what is attempted. I am fed up with a lot of victimhood weapons used here while dealing with hardhitting replies.

Thanks.

 

[sangom]

hi KB sir,

Agnosticism or atheism is just a position. There is nothing special about it. Not many are bothered with such claims. Secularism is a principle. Rationality is a quality. There is interest in knowing whether people, who make such tall claims of adhering to these principles or having such qualities, do have these qualities in reality.


these are kind of mental disorder....not just a position.....like gay sex.....which is not very common in everybody....may be like

some personal/vengence turn into atheist/agnosticism....nobody born as atheist/agnostic.....

Shri tbs sir,

I did not expect such naivete from you, sir. Have you bothered to find out from your own children - when they are 3 or 4 years old and can talk their mother tongue satisfactorily - whether they knew hinduism or hindu gods, etc. These small children have absolutely know idea of any religion or any God. It is the parents (and others close to the children) who - knowingly and unknowingly - inculcate & indoctrinate the children's minds with one type of religious idea or another. That is why you will find the orphans professing whatever religion their orphanage teaches them. Hence all humans are born as atheists or agnostics and without religion and that is the purest state of the human mind. Religion, like opium or drugs, is an addiction imposed on the young and pure minds by society and elders.

Gay, Lesbian may or may not be there from birth itself. I am not an authority on that subject but today even the Pope, reportedly, seems to view these as normal and acceptable human behaviours.

 

[auh]

... Criticizing the minorities is easy and to a large extent cowardly, but to taken on the majority needs true courage of conviction.

The above statement would be easily misconstrued to mean what it literally says but for the reality in India - when it comes to aggression and violence, the minority is the majority, and when viewed in this backdrop, the above statement seems quite inappropriate...

The anti-hindu stance failed to be just that. The name is a misnomer, and, rightly read, it would be anti-brahmin. Now I am just wondering when were brahmins the majority...?

 

[auh]

These small children have absolutely know idea of any religion or any God. It is the parents (and others close to the children) who - knowingly and unknowingly - inculcate & indoctrinate the children's minds with one type of religious idea or another. That is why you will find the orphans professing whatever religion their orphanage teaches them. Hence all humans are born as atheists or agnostics and without religion and that is the purest state of the human mind. Religion, like opium or drugs, is an addiction imposed on the young and pure minds by society and elders.

Sorry to intervene - but reg. the highlighted - we cannot decipher the mind of an infant/child and hence it would be incorrect to even say that they are atheist/agnostic.

Forget religion, they are oblivious to everything except the physical needs.

 

[skartykn]

While there is a fact in what you are saying , the points that you mentioned in bullets below are also true.

Dear sangom, these arguments have not changed a whole lot over the years, in fact they have remained surprisingly the same. They can be easily summarized as follows:

• Hindus are tolerant
• Nonbelievers won't criticize Islam or Christianity
• Most people are believers, only handful are nonbelievers
• They have been atheists but by god's grace saw the light

• Atheists secretly pray to god

To KD Americans are very rational people, which is ironically understandable considering what KD thinks is rational. Like KD with respect to Hindus in India, in the U.S. Christians think their religion is under assault by pseudo-secularists, aka sickularists. The religiously motivated right wing in both countries are alike in many ways -- RSS/BJP in India and Republicans/Christian Right in the U.S.

regards ....

 

[skartykn]

Sir,


In my view, let us not look at Rishi Moolam or Nadhi Moolam of such good articles.

In Bhagavad Gita, The Lord has declared to the Hindu in His incarnat6ion as Krisha: "I am in every religion as the thread through a string of pearls. Wherever thou seest extraordinary holiness and extraordinary power raising and purifying humanity, know thou that I am there".

It is not out of place to mention about the story of Arunagirinathar, Tamil Poet who composed the Thirupugazh on Lord Muruga..

Keep posting such texts

　

With regards

I would be thankful if you could quote the reference. Because I believe during Krishna's time there was no concept of religion.

 

[Vaagmi]

post #18 for reference:

Have you bothered to find out from your own children - when they are 3 or 4 years old and can talk their mother tongue satisfactorily - whether they knew hinduism or hindu gods, etc. These small children have absolutely know idea of any religion or any God. It is the parents (and others close to the children) who - knowingly and unknowingly - inculcate & indoctrinate the children's minds with one type of religious idea or another. That is why you will find the orphans professing whatever religion their orphanage teaches them. Hence all humans are born as atheists or agnostics and without religion and that is the purest state of the human mind. Religion, like opium or drugs, is an addiction imposed on the young and pure minds by society and elders

That is an interpretation of convenience. Children are biological receptacles with a number of pigeon-holes which are empty to start with. These holes get filled up with info as they grow up. To say that they are born atheists is like telling that they had atheism in one of those pigeon holes even as they were born. Aatheism is arrived at after a lot of deliberation. it is not a natural state. Agnosticism is another state in which the individual is tentative/not sure. He may move on to become either a believer or an atheist. His position is that he has yet to acquire sufficient info to believe in God and so will wait. He may even die an agnostic because his waiting may be inconclusive depending on his mental facilities and time available. You do not call a clean slate either as Ramayana or Porno. It is just a clean slate for use.



.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Dear Shri KB sir,
I am (still) under the impression that this thread is not about attack on hinduism but the fitness certificate issued favouring hinduism by a "born again hindu"! On that basis I considered how valuable or otherwise was that certificate.

Dear Sangom Sir,

I agree with you that the views of Kannadasan either about Hinduism or atheists, only because he is a convert or "born again hindu", need not be taken sacrosanct just as how the views of someone about Brahmins cannot be considered sacrosanct or be taken as gospel of truth only because he/she is, or claims to be, an ex-Brahmin. Nevertheless, one finds that such self-declarations are often used as a tactic to claim legitimacy of one's own account of things.

Whatever may be the intention of the OP, I feel that your objection to the article stems from your inability to accept that atheism can also be used as a tool to fool gullible people - the same accusation you wield against religion.

 

[mkrishna100]

Whatever may be the intention of the OP, I feel that your objection to the article stems from your inability to accept that atheism can also be used as a tool to fool gullible people - the same accusation you wield against religion.

One of my friend ( he is a non brahmin ) told me few years back that his father was highly impressed by the DK/DMK movement and also joined the same and later understood that except for a small group who were sincere to the cause of rational thinking /atheism ,rest of the group were making a career for themselves in this line and many moved politically ( from DK to DMK ) to make more money and enjoy power and he was highly disillusioned by this and quit the movement and moved to the Sanmargam of Saint Ramalinga Swamigal ( Vallalar ) .