நான் ஒரு இந்து Outstanding article by Kannadasan.

[sangom]

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post #18 for reference:

That is an interpretation of convenience. Children are biological receptacles with a number of pigeon-holes which are empty to start with. These holes get filled up with info as they grow up. To say that they are born atheists is like telling that they had atheism in one of those pigeon holes even as they were born. Aatheism is arrived at after a lot of deliberation. it is not a natural state. Agnosticism is another state in which the individual is tentative/not sure. He may move on to become either a believer or an atheist. His position is that he has yet to acquire sufficient info to believe in God and so will wait. He may even die an agnostic because his waiting may be inconclusive depending on his mental facilities and time available. You do not call a clean slate either as Ramayana or Porno. It is just a clean slate for use.

I agree that a human is born as a clean slate - in matters regarding religion as also many other things. And, I am also glad to see that "Aatheism is arrived at after a lot of deliberation." This tentatively tells me that "anti-atheism" or religiousness does not call for the same amount or level of deliberation. In other words it comes as a result of indoctrination of young minds when they do not yet have the independence to revolt against or even disagree with, the tutions meticulously imparted to them by the parents/guardians. Because this religion thing has the same or even more powerful addictive nature than that of alcohol or drugs, the hapless people get destined to live their lives in accordance with the desires of the parents/guardians. Rarely do they come out of this addictive phase and even rarer are the chances for people to get situations which favour de-addiction.

Agnosticism is of course a stage of indecisiveness. But there seems to be no better English term suitable to describe the belief of people like myself, who do not deny the existence of some power or force beyond human abilities but are convinced that the various pantheons of mostly anthropomorphic (and some animal-like also) "gods" and the religious belief systems marketing such gods, are all absolutely untrustworthy. (Though I have not studied either Sanmargam or Saint Ramalinga Swamigal (Vallalar), from what little I have studied, it appears to me as though the Vallalar was also an agnostic by the above definition.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom Sir,

I agree with you that the views of Kannadasan either about Hinduism or atheists, only because he is a convert or "born again hindu", need not be taken sacrosanct just as how the views of someone about Brahmins cannot be considered sacrosanct or be taken as gospel of truth only because he/she is, or claims to be, an ex-Brahmin. Nevertheless, one finds that such self-declarations are often used as a tactic to claim legitimacy of one's own account of things.

Whatever may be the intention of the OP, I feel that your objection to the article stems from your inability to accept that atheism can also be used as a tool to fool gullible people - the same accusation you wield against religion.

Dear KB sir,

I am fully aware that atheism, like many other items under the sun, can be used for fooling people, if only the people so fooled, have sufficient animosity towards a particular faith system. Then, to those people suffering hardships under the faith system, somehow imposed upon them, atheism will look as a real escape route to freedom. But this cannot work unless the posing atheist is a person capable of swaying the minds and thinking styles of the oppressed people and is also viewed as dependable. That calls for a real leader of people.

Since we are talking about a mass movement which gradually branched our into politics, it is very likely that some unprincipled elements got into it and made their career. In this connection, I have met, quite by accident one Telugu gentleman with a triple M.A. and running a very small eatery in Mathura U.P., who told me that he was a congressman but he and some others got disgusted with the rank opportunism and lack of principles of many congress leaders and the way Gandhi always supported those opportunists. Now, will you therefore, agree that the Congress has also been fooling the people brandishing some swadeshi slogans?

Further, the anti-brahminism in Tamil Nadu was aimed at freeing the dravidian population from the herculean grip of brahmins in all aspects of living; and these lowest castes did not have any role at all within the brahmin-prescribed hindu religion. The already half-irreligious Shudras could not have lost anything by breaking the idols of hindu temples or garlanding the idols with chappal garlands, etc. The charge of atheism on the Kazhagams is therefore only from the pov of the orthodox brahmin and not from the pov of the lowest castes. It was more a rationalist movement which mounted an iconoclastic onslaught on the brahmins and their gods and got branded, conveniently, as an atheist movement. I doubt very much whether any low caste hindu stopped worshipping any of his/her own (low-caste or Shudra-) godheads like எசக்கி, மாடன், வண்டிமுலச்சியம்மன், முன்னூற்று நங்கை, எல்லை தெய்வங்கள் (ecakki, māṭaṉ, vaṇṭimulacciyammaṉ, muṉṉūṟṟu naṅkai, ellai teyvaṅkaḷ) etc., even during the heydays of the said uprising. AFAIK, those low caste people continued with their (non-brahminical) gods and beliefs as they still continue to do.

 

[tbs]

hi
if kannadasan talk abt hinduism.....then they are a lot of objections/qustions.....if he say abt christians/muslims...then nobody

dare to question him....becoz HINDUS ARE LIKE ILICCHA VAAYAN...

 

[kunjuppu]

i have attended kannadasan's arthamuLLa hindhu madham discourses at venus colony in the 1970s and found them engaging. the hall was always overflowing, and judging by the crowd, a cross section of the hindu community. much unlike the discourses of anantharama dikshithar, which was mostly tambrams.

it was interesting the way he explained jaathi and varna, especially to the mixed crowd. on the whole, very erudite and very simply explained. i did not question his motives, as to why he converted back to hinduism. after a muthiah, to an ardent devotee of kannan, then to godlessness and back to kannan. why not? to each his own.

 

[Nara]

..... It was more a rationalist movement which mounted an iconoclastic onslaught on the brahmins and their gods and got branded, conveniently, as an atheist movement. I doubt very much whether any low caste hindu stopped worshipping any of his/her own (low-caste or Shudra-) godheads like எசக்கி, மாடன், வண்டிமுலச்சியம்மன், முன்னூற்று நங்கை, எல்லை தெய்வங்கள் (ecakki, māṭaṉ, vaṇṭimulacciyammaṉ, muṉṉūṟṟu naṅkai, ellai teyvaṅkaḷ) etc., even during the heydays of the said uprising. AFAIK, those low caste people continued with their (non-brahminical) gods and beliefs as they still continue to do.

Dear sangom, in many ways the worship of the "low-caste" godheads you mention are honest, though they also promote superstitious beliefs that can be and are exploited by peddlers of theism. The ordinary "low caste " Hindu in many ways seem honest to me because there is no assertion of ultimate reality or inerrant and immutable truth that can be seen only with proper attitude, preparation etc.

Contrast them with the proponents of more "advanced" religions be it Christianity, Islam, Smartha or SV, Gaudia, you name it; they all are cocksure they are right and not just that, everyone else is wrong -- all with absolutely no more evidence or logic than the bushmen of Africa, or the worshippers of எசக்கி. In this respect, the chanting of African bushman is more honest than the chanting of Vedas, because those who chant the Vedas, perhaps like the bushmen of Africa, do so with no more understanding of what it is they are chanting, but unlike the bushmen of Africa, claim what they are chanting is the ultimate inerrant and immutable truth.

Furthermore, I have seen some of these doyens of Vedic knowledge appealing secretly to an எசக்கி or மாரியம்மன் when one of their loved ones comes down with some ailment, like chickenpox.

I also agree with what you so rightly observe, the primary goal of the movement was to free the so called "low-castes" from the chains of bondage. If they could free them from irrationality in the process, so much the better.

regards ....

 

[V.Balasubramani]

I would be thankful if you could quote the reference. Because I believe during Krishna's time there was no concept of religion.

Sir,

It is a good thing you asked the reference that shows your interest on the text.


Source No.1The Reference: Book title 'A Tribute to Hinduism' - Thoughts and wisdom spanning continents and time about India and her culture - bhy Sushama Londhe - She has quoted Swami Vivekananda from Page 33 to 38. In page 35, it is mentioned like this:

Vivekananda said: The Vedas teach that the soul is divine, only held in the bondage of matter, perfection will be reached when this bond will burst and the word they use for it is, therefore, Mukti - freedom, freedom from the bonds of imperfection, freedom from death and misery"

"The Lord has declared to the Hindu in His incarnation as Krishna "I am in every religion as the thread through a string of pearls. Wherever thou seest extraordinary holiness and extraordinary power raising and puifying humanity, know thou that I am there" 99

Source No2, Extract of Book titled Vedanta – Voice of Freedom 1987 – by Vivekananda - - C apter ‘Unity in variety’ – Page 100 Reads as follows:

“It is the same light coming through glasses of different colours. And these little variations are necessary for purposes of adaptation. But in the heart of everything the same truth reigns. The Lord has declared to the Hindu in His incarnation as Krishna: “ I am in every religion, as the thread through a string of pearls.” “Wherever thou seest extraordinary holiness and extraordinary power raising and purifying humanity, know thou that I am there” (I.15-18)

Bhagavad Gita 10.41

The other one is
Get quotes daily

Source No.3 Bhagavad Gita > Quotes > Quotable Quote
"I am in every religion as the thread through a string of pearls. Wherever thou seest extraordinary holiness and extraordinary power raising and purifying humanity, know thou that I am there."

Bhagavad Gita


Have a nice day.

Source : Googlereads

 

[கால பைரவன்]

The charge of atheism on the Kazhagams is therefore only from the pov of the orthodox brahmin and not from the pov of the lowest castes. It was more a rationalist movement which mounted an iconoclastic onslaught on the brahmins and their gods and got branded, conveniently, as an atheist movement.

Dear Sangom sir,

It is an irony to read the above post, because for a person who is quick to comment about the naiveté of another member, this post betrays more of the same.

That the movement is an atheist or a rational movement is NOT the pov of brahmins. It is the apologists of the movement, not the Brahmins, who give such excuses in trying to show an intellectual character to the movement. The Brahmins understand the movement for what it is - strengthening of dominant dravidianist castes by promoting hatred against brahmins. There is nothing more to it. Race, religion, rationality etc were just used to hoodwink the public. The onslaught was meant to be specific to Brahmins, their beliefs, their customs, and their gods, as you say, but it backfired in certain cases, an example of which can be seen in the OP. That the members of the movement peddled atheism, when it suited them, and cheated gullible people is factual. Nevertheless I won't prevent you if you want to feel good that those who cheated were not "true" atheists but only "pretend" atheists!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

... herculean grip of Brahmins....

It has always been clear to at least some of us that the brahmins did not hold sway over the masses either during the colonial era or before as often charged by anti-Brahmins and people prejudiced against them.

What goes on in this forum exemplifies it in a way.

Considering how easy it is for a bunch of people ganging up together and write all sorts of nasty things, such as herculean grip, bondage etc, against Brahmins in the very forum started for the benefit of Brahmins, no one would doubt whether Brahmins held any sway .

 

[tbs]

hi KB sir,

there are some brahmins to " pretend" atheists............some wants show as atheists....to show others and the community....

many pretend as....ADHU OORUKKU THAAN UPADESAM.......ENAKKU ILLAI....

 

[sarang]

What is the source for such a belief? What is your concept of religion? When did krishna live? Perhaps a quick reply or reply after introspection will clear the dust. You may find the answers.

I would be thankful if you could quote the reference. Because I believe during Krishna's time there was no concept of religion.

 

[sangom]

hi
if kannadasan talk abt hinduism.....then they are a lot of objections/qustions.....if he say abt christians/muslims...then nobody

dare to question him....becoz HINDUS ARE LIKE ILICCHA VAAYAN...

Shri tbs sir,

The above is a non-sequitur. What relevance has KD's remarks (favourable or unfavourable) about other religions to those who do not belong to any of those religions?

If there are Christian/Muslim members in this forum, they are free to comment on KD's remarks about their respective religions.

 

[Vaagmi]

I agree that a human is born as a clean slate - in matters regarding religion as also many other things. And, I am also glad to see that "Aatheism is arrived at after a lot of deliberation."

I do not understand what is there to be happy about that statement. I said only that the deliberation was done. What was the decision taken after deliberation can be wrong or right depending on each one's equipment. LOL.

This tentatively tells me that "anti-atheism" or religiousness does not call for the same amount or level of deliberation. In other words it comes as a result of indoctrination of young minds when they do not yet have the independence to revolt against or even disagree with, the tutions meticulously imparted to them by the parents/guardians. Because this religion thing has the same or even more powerful addictive nature than that of alcohol or drugs, the hapless people get destined to live their lives in accordance with the desires of the parents/guardians. Rarely do they come out of this addictive phase and even rarer are the chances for people to get situations which favour de-addiction.

Interpretation can be done any way. You can say somebody is good. Only when some one asks you and probes the matter more you may say that that somebody has stopped beating his wife from last week and so he is good. Every human being acquires values in the journey of life from various sources-from parents, from friends, from society in which they live, from the school, from books, from media and from own experience. These values are constantly taken out reviewed, validated and added back to the archive or found to be bad and discarded to be replaced with new values. Religion and faith is also one such value. In the young age it is what the mother or the grand mother says by stories like purana etc. As the child grows it is bombarded with questions from all around and tries to find satisfactory answers to validate the already acquired values. Some times it's own experience validates the value with finality. That is how some people become atheists. They are people who are unable to get validations for the closely held beliefs. Atheists throw away those values in disgust while agnostics are bewildered and post pone the day. I have passed through these stages in my life and I know what it is like. I can tell you there was no addiction to any belief system may be because my parents were not opiate pedlers. They never expected me to be very passionate about my belief system. They told me stories and also the logical questions which will come to the mind. They helped me with finding answers-not spoon fed. I think I was lucky to have such parents. It is my considered view that there is no chance for one such individual to become an atheist unless, the family, peers, the society in which he lived and his personal experiences all conspired together to deny him his intellectual independence to search and find answers.

Agnosticism is of course a stage of indecisiveness. But there seems to be no better English term suitable to describe the belief of people like myself, who do not deny the existence of some power or force beyond human abilities but are convinced that the various pantheons of mostly anthropomorphic (and some animal-like also) "gods" and the religious belief systems marketing such gods, are all absolutely untrustworthy. (Though I have not studied either Sanmargam or Saint Ramalinga Swamigal (Vallalar), from what little I have studied, it appears to me as though the Vallalar was also an agnostic by the above definition.

Why did you get stuck there? Move on. You can be in a certain position vis-a-vis others. But you can also understand where they stand and what is it that is ticking in them. Well let me stand in your place and look at things because it is familiar territory for me. I am an agnostic. I believe in some superpower. I find all this anthropomorphous and animalform gods not acceptable to me. I hate the untrustworthy system that is marketing these gods. I am happy with my position. I am different. I am not one of these lesser beings who mob these gods and their temples. Now shall I not try to find out whether I am right. Well I tell myself that I am perhaps a little narcissic and so have a tendency to feel extremely okay with myself and my belief even when I am not able to understand others behavior. Now I should try to understand others behavior. Let me see what others have to say about their worship of anthropomorphous and animal form Godheads. Someone said God is everywhere. I am able to agree with that view because it is super power. Then that some one went on to say பூகத ஜலம் போலே அந்தர்யாமித்வம். ஆவரண ஜலம் போலே பரத்வம். பாற்கடல் போலே வியூகம். பெருக்காறு போலே விபவம். அதிலே தேங்கின மடுக்கள் போலே அர்ச்சாவதாரம் gives me an idea of what their (those who worship the anthropomorpous form) position is. Well. Am I not satisfied? So for the present in my mind which is torn by the conflicting ideas seeking acceptance, I place this anthropomorpous form worship at some place where I recognize that it has some authenticity. I move on. I will look at this another day again when I get another validation. May be if I get enough validation I may become a believer myself.

A very long and complicated thought process it is. I have tried to condense just a small part of it and give it here. Hope this answers you. Hope you get back in control of your ship which is listlessly floating before the tsunami hits it. Thanks.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom sir,

It is an irony to read the above post, because for a person who is quick to comment about the naiveté of another member, this post betrays more of the same.

That the movement is an atheist or a rational movement is NOT the pov of brahmins. It is the apologists of the movement, not the Brahmins, who give such excuses in trying to show an intellectual character to the movement. The Brahmins understand the movement for what it is - strengthening of dominant dravidianist castes by promoting hatred against brahmins. There is nothing more to it. Race, religion, rationality etc were just used to hoodwink the public. The onslaught was meant to be specific to Brahmins, their beliefs, their customs, and their gods, as you say, but it backfired in certain cases, an example of which can be seen in the OP. That the members of the movement peddled atheism, when it suited them, and cheated gullible people is factual. Nevertheless I won't prevent you if you want to feel good that those who cheated were not "true" atheists but only "pretend" atheists!

Dear Shri KB sir,

Well, I cannot claim to be as much an expert on the Kazhagam movements as, perhaps, you are. But from whatever I have read, heard from elders, etc., the focus of the movement was to bring to an end the undue powers which the minuscule brahmin community wielded in the panorama of the Tamil society of that time (which comprised the whole of the Madras Presidency of the British and was much larger than the present day T.N.). This chapter itself could have been completely avoided if only the Brahmin Congress leaders (and most notably Rajaji) had either the political commonsense or inborn humility or the intelligence to ascertain the ways of working of the British Colonial rulers, and to concede at least 50% reservation of british government jobs for the non-brahmins. Sadly, however, Rajaji and his cohorts simply refused to let go of any of the "laddus" of power they had been able to secure as a gift for faithful services rendered, from their British masters and overlords. The latter were much more cunning for the brahmins and successfully exploited the issue to their own advantage then.

All this I am stating because the atheist aspect or breaking/desecration of idols, etc., had absolutely nothing to do with the real purpose of the movement which was to dislodge the brahmin clique from positions of power and control. That aim was more than fully achieved. Hence, notwithstanding, the "atheist" claims of the Kazhagam being true or not, we have in our hands the very Muthiah who was - for reasons not so far made clear - attracted towards that very same atheist movement from his hindu background. (After he was "born again" he reportedly embraced the caste-based discrimination (Please see here.). That is another topic but somehow the "atheism" seems to have been against caste discriminations also.)

The people who you describe as having been "cheated" by peddling atheism, were not cheated, I hold. The movement never questioned their own methods of belief/worship. Thus the brahmins' compassion for the 'cheated' populace is like the wolf crying over the sheep's death or, mere crocodile tears. It will now be clear where the naivete or cunning lies.

What I see today, particularly in this forum, from some of the members is reactions to the dravidian movement's success and its firm grip on the rulership of Tamil Nadu in which the brahmins can never even dream to have any morsel of the power & prestige which they enjoyed pre-kazhagam days. It reminds one of the proverb "if you are afraid to scold a person directly, then abuse his lineage at least and say his grandfather's brother was lame, or somethings like that at least".

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Ref Sangom's post # 38

All this I am stating because the atheist aspect or breaking/desecration of idols, etc., had absolutely nothing to do with the real purpose of the movement which was to dislodge the brahmin clique from positions of power and control. That aim was more than fully achieved.

But I had already stated this:

The Brahmins understand the movement for what it is - strengthening of dominant dravidianist castes by promoting hatred against brahmins.

As far as the Brahmins are concerned, it is just a movement to secure power in the hands of dominant non-Brahmin castes. It is the apologists of the movement who make tall claims about the rational character of the movement by citing atheism etc to hide the true character of the movement, so that they can feel good about themselves in supporting hatemongering, an affliction they, perhaps, share themselves. However when an instance such as the one reported in OP surfaces, suddenly the apologists do not want to associate atheism or rationalism with the movement. They think, by this, they can fool the Brahmins but in essence they are fooling themselves.

The people who you describe as having been "cheated" by peddling atheism, were not cheated, I hold. The movement never questioned their own methods of belief/worship. Thus the brahmins' compassion for the 'cheated' populace is like the wolf crying over the sheep's death or, mere crocodile tears. It will now be clear where the naivete or cunning lies.

If according to you there was no cheating, then where does the question of Brahmin's compassion for "cheated" populace arise at all?

The cunning lies actually with those people who rejoice in the success of the dravidianist parties in marginalizing the brahmins, leave no stone unturned in repeatedly pointing this out to the Brahmins, hide the true character of the movement and means it used, yet come out here and pretend as if they are well wishers of the Brahmin community. That is where the cunning lies, dear Sangom!

 

[sarang]

Don’t like this temple? Choose another

Our sanatana dharma, in practice, is so wide and vast that it can meet the physical, intellectual and spiritual needs of all sections of hindu society.

Old temples are renovated, new temples are built (for repatriates too), vedantic and bhakti literature in all media formats is flourishing, regular 'aanmika sorpozhivu' and upanyasams are held all over india - there is no need to fear or grieve what the future holds. Kannadasan has expressed his faith in sanatana dharma in his inimitable style and wisdom.

This is what Madhu Kishwar has said in one of her articles; it has always been so and will be so in future too.

"The imperious missionaries of liberalism have no respect for the diversity of India’s belief systems and have taken it upon themselves to reform everything they perceive as outdated and incorrect"

"Do we want to create a world in which everyone thinks alike? A world in which there is no space for divergence of views or foolish people?"

"Just as our colonial rulers with their faith in the superiority of their monotheistic faith, despised Hindu religious practices, with their millions of gods and goddesses, our modern day missionaries can’t stand the temperamental nuances of our diverse deities. They have no problem in accepting that women are barred inside friaries meant to house Catholic priests who have taken a vow of celibacy. But they can’t stomach the idea of a male deity who has likewise vowed eternal celibacy avoiding the company of women. They take it upon themselves to cure this kink because in their moral universe with its borrowed vocabulary, this amounts to misogyny and gender discrimination!"
"If that were not the case, they would have no difficulty in appreciating that Hindu divinities are not unknowable, distant entities. They have distinct personalities, character traits, likes, dislikes. Even in matters of food, floral offerings, puja ritual, each deity has his or her preferences. If you don’t respect their unique temperaments, you are free not to worship them and choose the devata or devi that suits your taste."
"It is time the imperious missionaries of “liberalism” understand that our temples are not meant to be tourist centres — where entry must be free for all. Most of our traditional temples are run by specific sects for the devotees of that particular deity. If you don’t like the values of that sect, if the preferences of that particular deity are offensive to you, just avoid going to that temple. There are lakhs of others to choose from."
"If I walked into the homes of our self-appointed reformers and insisted that they change their lifestyles and food habits, I’d be shown the door and asked to mind my own business. What gives these non-believers the right to dictate to Lord Sabarimala how he should live and act in his own abode or dictate terms to harmless little sects among Hindus who prefer to indulge in the whims and wishes of their chosen deities?"
"In the Hindu faiths, nothing is written in stone. Devotees have the right to dictate their deities to change with changing times. But they can’t be ordered around by those who only have contempt for them. They cannot be bullied into surrendering their unique Being and become colourless and soulless robotic creatures that yield to every new wave of political fashion we import from our intellectual mentors in distant lands."

Don?t like this temple? Choose another - The Hindu: Mobile Edition

 

[sangom]

It has always been clear to at least some of us that the brahmins did not hold sway over the masses either during the colonial era or before as often charged by anti-Brahmins and people prejudiced against them.

What goes on in this forum exemplifies it in a way.

Considering how easy it is for a bunch of people ganging up together and write all sorts of nasty things, such as herculean grip, bondage etc, against Brahmins in the very forum started for the benefit of Brahmins, no one would doubt whether Brahmins held any sway .

The very fact that any mention of the "herculean grip of brahmins" gives rise to such emotion is proof enough if any proof is wanted. It is typical அப்பா குதிருக்குள் இல்லை symptom!!

If, as you say, "It has always been clear to at least some of us that the brahmins did not hold sway over the masses either during the colonial era or before", then this kind of a response was not the answer, imo; you should have come out with supporting evidence instead. FYKI, I do not mean that each and every brahmin had the power and that each and every brahmin held sway (controlling influence) over the Tamil society. But almost the entire gamut of the British Government office jobs went to the tabras with the result that the rest of the society - brahmins as well as non-brahmins -found a "brahmin face" of the government to interact with. And, it is not a secret that this "face of the government" did not always reflect the ideal of an incorruptible brāhmaṇa. Therefore the NBs wanted a piece of the cake for themselves. That was the origin of the fissure.

The herculean grip phenomenon arose because the brahmin was the highest caste and it has been and still is, believed that all the social codes of conduct called dharma sūtras and dharma śāstras of hinduism were all laid down by, or, in the name of one brāhmaṇa or another. (Only one, viz., viśvāmitra smṛti may be attributed to a kṣatriya author, but, the contents of this viśvāmitra smṛti is also on the same lines as the other brāhmaṇa smṛtis.)

In a very similar scenario, the "paradesi brahmins" or "pattars" of the erstwhile Travancore state are also mentioned as having wielded disproportionate power in Government (and also the society) in many publications, articles etc. Whether the charge is true or not the tabras of Kerala have never reacted. I personally hold that the charge is true and now these tabras are as much "persona non grata" in Kerala as they are in TN.

You will already be aware that mentioning the name of a certain personality and the name of his movement, etc., have been banned in this Forum. May be you can work for banning all those things considered as "nasty" by you and then, may be this forum will spread the finest brahmin smell all over the networld. Why not take it up with Shri Praveen? And, LBNL, don't you think truth ranks higher than what is pleasant to hear, especially when "satyameva jayate" is the nation's clarion call?

 

[Nara]

....It is a good thing you asked the reference that shows your interest on the text.

The references you have provided are unsatisfactory, they all are secondary sources. I request you to please provide a reference from the primary text itself for your cut and pasted text below:

"In Bhagavad Gita, The Lord has declared to the Hindu in His incarnat6ion as Krisha: "I am in every religion as the thread through a string of pearls. Wherever thou seest extraordinary holiness and extraordinary power raising and purifying humanity, know thou that I am there".
​

cited here.

Please take a look at verse 7.7.

मत्त: परतरं नान्यत् किञ्चिदस्ति धनञ्च्य |
मयि सर्वमिदं प्रोतं सूत्रे मणिगणा इव ||

Is this the one you are referring to? If so, the translation you have cut and pasted has no resemblance to the original text. A loose translation of this verse goes something like this: "Dhananjaya, there is nothing greater than me (i.e. Krishna) all the creation I mentioned are attached to me like many pearls strung together in a string."

 

[Vaagmi]

Reference post #38:

What I see today, particularly in this forum, from some of the members is reactions to the dravidian movement's success and its firm grip on the rulership of Tamil Nadu in which the brahmins can never even dream to have any morsel of the power & prestige which they enjoyed pre-kazhagam days. It reminds one of the proverb "if you are afraid to scold a person directly, then abuse his lineage at least and say his grandfather's brother was lame, or somethings like that at least".

What you see is the surface reality. Do you think brahmins are really bothered these days about the power or so called prestige that is attached to the Government jobs or positions of power. The real power always lies with those who have the knowledge. Knowledge is power. I never tell the person in power these days in frustration that his fathers brothers sister is lame. I just ask him what is his price and I pay it out to purchase him and I am a brahmin-he knows it and I know it. In this situation which is applicable to most of the encounters with the people in power these days, who has the last laugh if the price paid is factored into the overall cost of the project ? Like the price you pay happily for the வெண்டைக்காய் in your Chalai market which includes the mamool paid by the lorry driver to the policeman manning the checkpost on Nagercoil TVm highway. Please think about it. LOL.

 

[Vaagmi]

You will already be aware that mentioning the name of a certain personality and the name of his movement, etc., have been banned in this Forum. May be you can work for banning all those things considered as "nasty" by you and then, may be this forum will spread the finest brahmin smell all over the networld. Why not take it up with Shri Praveen? And, LBNL, don't you think truth ranks higher than what is pleasant to hear, especially when "satyameva jayate" is the nation's clarion call?

The problem is that what appears to be the satyam to you happens to be the asatyam to the majority here and what appears to be satyam to them is astyam to you. The majority prevails in a democracy as it prevails in deciding who rules the country. Thus the given fact that brahmins have been maltreated because they are a helplessly small minority is astyam to you and this moinority wielded a lot of power is satyam to you. But for the majority it is just the opposite. Either you take it or leave it and move on. The majority any way does not consider your laboured effort to tell it your satyam as any thing but asatyam. Satyameva jayate!!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

May be you can work for banning all those things considered as "nasty" by you and then, may be this forum will spread the finest brahmin smell all over the networld. Why not take it up with Shri Praveen?

Anyone can see what goes on in this forum day in and day out.

Considering the fact that the political power has been mostly usurped and that the dharmasasthras have not been relevant for eons now, that a few members considering it as their prime duty to keep the torch of anti-Brahmin/anti-brahminism rhetoric burning continuously resorting predictably to the dharamsasthras and colonial period events, that too selectively, can only come out of extreme prejudice and hatred against the brahmins. That is my opinion.

I do not intend to appeal to the owner to ban this or that. I would like to keep my privilege to put forth my view including the one above, that is all!

 

[sangom]

Reference post #38:

What you see is the surface reality. Do you think brahmins are really bothered these days about the power or so called prestige that is attached to the Government jobs or positions of power. The real power always lies with those who have the knowledge. Knowledge is power. I never tell the person in power these days in frustration that his fathers brothers sister is lame. I just ask him what is his price and I pay it out to purchase him and I am a brahmin-he knows it and I know it. In this situation which is applicable to most of the encounters with the people in power these days, who has the last laugh if the price paid is factored into the overall cost of the project ? Like the price you pay happily for the வெண்டைக்காய் in your Chalai market which includes the mamool paid by the lorry driver to the policeman manning the checkpost on Nagercoil TVm highway. Please think about it. LOL.

If, as you seem to claim, brahmins these days are not really bothered about the power or prestige of government jobs or positions of power, it seems surprising to me why a few of the members of this forum get so much worked up when somethings are written in support of the Dravidian movement.

And, I don't think that "knowledge is power" under all circumstances today; on the contrary today "Power is knowledge, wealth and everything else that is desirable" will be true and according to me, this was the universal truth at all times.

I think the question of "last laugh" does not arise here because when it comes to directly dealing with the centres of power, the "factoring into project cost" usually does not apply and it is actually factoring into cost for others. As an example, வெண்டைக்காய் or fish or meat to the residences of power centres are usually free or at negligible price and no maamool or anything is factored into that low price.

 

[Nara]

There seems to be a misconception that there was a time in the distant past when the Dharmashasthras defined how people lived, and that now, in these modern times, they are a relic of a bygone era and nobody cares about them. I really don't buy these on either count.

First, the Dharmashashtras were never fully followed by anybody, at any time, not even by the most orthodox of Brahmins. There was no time in the past when the Dharmashasthras were strictly followed by anybody. They were merely used as a stick to beat down the "others". This is the case even these days, except that in the olden days the stick was backed up by the sword of the state, not any more.

However, as the adage கடுகு சிறுத்தாலும் காரம் குறையாது goes, even now, in these modern times, Brahmins and Brahmnists, still tout Dharmashasthras as the distilled essence of Vedic teachings (not preachings mind you), and the ideal way a society must be organized. If you need proof go to any of the Brahminical matams and spend some time there, or, if you don't have the time or inclination, just visit the Kamakoti.org web site, there is enough evidence to show Dharmashasthras are still revered.

Yes, just about nobody actually takes the trouble of living by the Dharmashasthra rules, but it is an undeniable fact that there are scores of Brahmins who adore the Dharmashasthras and are quite eager to practice the discriminatory rules that they find less onerous upon themselves. To be able to argue that the vile Dharmashasthras are the relic of the past bygone era one must at the very least declare they no longer (IMO never) define(d) a perfect society. How many Brahmins are willing to say this openly? How many are willing to criticize the great Brahminical acharyas who insist, with all the clerical authority they are reverentially granted by the adoring shishyas, that the Dharmashasthra rules are eternal?

So, there is no justification to simply dismiss the criticism of the Dharmashasthras.

 

[tks]

Yet another thread has presented a wonderful opportunity to recycle the same old same old stuff ... Did I really mean stuff .. well you all know what I mean LoL

 

[கால பைரவன்]

If, as you seem to claim, brahmins these days are not really bothered about the power or prestige of government jobs or positions of power, it seems surprising to me why a few of the members of this forum get so much worked up when somethings are written in support of the Dravidian movement.

The Dravidian movement, just as the name implies, is a racist movement, which promoted and continues to promote hatred against brahmins. That the brahmins oppose it would not be a surprise to anyone i.e. to anyone who is not extremely prejudiced against them.

That a section of Brahmins have learned to survive and improve their condition despite the usurping of power and govt jobs does not mean that the discrimination and hatemongering that are perpetrated against them are not real or that they can be condoned.

 

[renuka]

similar to the urge to compulsively pull one's own hair– a disorder known as trichotillomania.

Dear Naina ji,

Could not stop laughing reading this!

Trichotillomania is a mouthful to pronounce..sounds like some Tripura Tillotama..I think there is a Tamil Slang word to define this hair pulling syndrome!LOL

Only today I entered this thread wondering how come its going on so long and Lo Behold! Its all about caste! No wonder its so active.