நான் ஒரு இந்து Outstanding article by Kannadasan.

[tks]

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Dear Naina ji,

Could not stop laughing reading this!

Trichotillomania is a mouthful to pronounce..sounds like some Tripura Tillotama..I think there is a Tamil Slang word to define this hair pulling syndrome!LOL

Only today I entered this thread wondering how come its going on so long and Lo Behold! Its all about caste! No wonder its so active.

Sometimes a non medical expression will capture the spirit of what is going on ..

Nothing beats an appropriate American expression to describe the view point giving rise to certain posts which are easy to identity..

The American expression I am thinking of - though slang - describes the placement of a person's head in an anatomically impossible place

 

[sangom]

Anyone can see what goes on in this forum day in and day out.

Considering the fact that the political power has been mostly usurped and that the dharmasasthras have not been relevant for eons now, that a few members considering it as their prime duty to keep the torch of anti-Brahmin/anti-brahminism rhetoric burning continuously resorting predictably to the dharamsasthras and colonial period events, that too selectively, can only come out of extreme prejudice and hatred against the brahmins. That is my opinion.

I do not intend to appeal to the owner to ban this or that. I would like to keep my privilege to put forth my view including the one above, that is all!

Dear Shri KB sir,

It is not correct - and may be it borders on blasphemy for orthodox, pro-brahminists like - to declare that dharmasāstras have not been relevant for eons now. If you are young enough, possibly you don't know how the hindu society functioned some 70 or 80 years ago, not eons ago. Even today, the poonal you are (I hope) wearing, the sandhyavandanam, Avani avittam, the various homams you do, including the last rites, etc., are all according to the dharmasāstras only.

Hence, even though political power is now not linked to the dharmasāstras, the hindu society functions even today much in accordance with those dharmasāstras only. And, again for your kind information, I (or Shri Nara, or Shri Kunjuppu , if we are the ones whom you intend) do not write because of prejudice or hatred against brahmins.Being a brahmin by birth myself, I feel it will be mere fooling ourselves to insist on hearing only whatever pleases us and to label everything else as due to hatred and prejudice against brahmins and castigate both the messages and their writers. Let us be fair to history at least, and admit that the Dravidian movement - whether racist or otherwise - could sway almost an entire populace and achieve political power as a result. Let us do some soul-searching (if we are sufficiently old) and assess for ourselves as to why the movement chose "anti-brahminism" of all things under the sun; why did it not choose, for example, anti-Chettiar or anti-Gounder or even anti-ChaaNaar as its motto? Because of the role which brahmins played during a certain crucial period of history in the Madras Presidency area, and so, let us not try to "close our eyes and imagine that it is darkness for everyone else too"; if people are young, let them read the records of those relevant times and let them not try to retro-fit the atrocities happening today and thus try to pass on the blame in entirety to the NBs.

 

[sarang]

And one or two keep saying that they will desist from posting but forget it soon and do not keep their word. Obviously all the dirt accumulated over decades must be poured out; let us hope good sense prevails after some time and the eyes are opened to see sudhdham, pavitram and vidhanam.

Anyone can see what goes on in this forum day in and day out.

Considering the fact that the political power has been mostly usurped and that the dharmasasthras have not been relevant for eons now, that a few members considering it as their prime duty to keep the torch of anti-Brahmin/anti-brahminism rhetoric burning continuously resorting predictably to the dharamsasthras and colonial period events, that too selectively, can only come out of extreme prejudice and hatred against the brahmins. That is my opinion.

I do not intend to appeal to the owner to ban this or that. I would like to keep my privilege to put forth my view including the one above, that is all!

 

[sarang]

Kannadasan in his introduction to the book seires

நான் நாத்திகனாக இருந்தது, இரண்டு மூன்று ஆண்டுகளே !

அதுவும் நாத்திகத்துக்கு ஒரு போலித்தனமான மரியாதை கிடைக்க தொடங்கிய இடைக்காலத்திலே!


****


நாத்திகவாதம் என்பது அரசியல் நோக்கம் கொண்டது என்பதையும் உள் மனத்தின் உண்மையான உணர்ச்சி அல்ல என்பதையும் உணர்ந்தேன்.


புராணங்களிலுள்ள தத்துவங்களை படிக்கப் படிக்க நான் கடவுளுக்கு அடிமையானேன்.

 

[Nara]

..... And, again for your kind information, I (or Shri Nara, or Shri Kunjuppu , if we are the ones whom you intend) do not write because of prejudice or hatred against brahmins.Being a brahmin by birth myself, I feel it will be mere fooling ourselves to insist on hearing only whatever pleases us and to label everything else as due to hatred and prejudice against brahmins and castigate both the messages and their writers.

Dear sangom, our friends from the other side of this discussion will never give up attacking the messenger, like KD himself does. KD found god that is great, but why must he put his erstwhile cohorts down? Even if we take KD's criticism that the atheism of the movement is a fraud, so what? That does not make atheism itself a fraud, just that the movement's atheism was insincere.

Further, we are now closing in on 50 years since Congress was booted out of TN and one or the other branches of the movement has been ruling TN. In the aggregate, the movement parties' appeal probably reaches over 80% of the population. You may fool some people all the time, even all the people some times, but to think the movement fooled all these people for over 35 years is nothing more than fooling oneself.

Then look at the progress the movement has produced in TN, it is one of the most successful states in the Indian union, and the progress is a broad based one, including the Brahmins. The Brahmins have flourished in TN. If the movement was against Brahmins and they hated Brahmins, the story would be very different.

Coming back to KD, religious faith is often used as a lever to kick substance addiction, and KD did just that, he was able to kick his alcoholism by finding what appeared to him as புராணங்களிலுள்ள தத்துவங்கள், without getting distracted by the புராணங்களிலுள்ள ஆபாசங்கள். That is great, it worked for him and I applaud him for that. But his personal opinion cannot be more important than the scores of other movement compatriots who didn't see any of the புராணங்களிலுள்ள தத்துவங்கள். KD reinventing himself worked for him, and that is great, but his views can at best be his personal view, no more or less authentic than all the other movement cadre who stayed in the movement.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Dear Shri KB sir,
It is not correct - and may be it borders on blasphemy for orthodox, pro-brahminists like - to declare that dharmasāstras have not been relevant for eons now. If you are young enough, possibly you don't know how the hindu society functioned some 70 or 80 years ago, not eons ago. Even today, the poonal you are (I hope) wearing, the sandhyavandanam, Avani avittam, the various homams you do, including the last rites, etc., are all according to the dharmasāstras only.
Hence, even though political power is now not linked to the dharmasāstras, the hindu society functions even today much in accordance with those dharmasāstras only. And, again for your kind information, I (or Shri Nara, or Shri Kunjuppu , if we are the ones whom you intend) do not write because of prejudice or hatred against brahmins.Being a brahmin by birth myself, I feel it will be mere fooling ourselves to insist on hearing only whatever pleases us and to label everything else as due to hatred and prejudice against brahmins and castigate both the messages and their writers.

Either there has been a misunderstanding about what I wrote or deliberate twisting. DS is a corpus of texts and if one finds anything objectionable in them one can criticize the texts all they want. However, just because the corpus of texts exist, which is a given fact, they cannot be used as an excuse to justify hatemongering and discrimination against Brahmins, which is what the coterie to which to you belong does, by simply asserting that "they were all believed to be once written in the name of a brahmana". When I said DS is not relevant I meant it is not relevant (and has not been relevant) to how the state is run. The DS do not control the political, economic, and or social affairs of this country. Even if it is true as is claimed here that the hindu society conducts its religious matters viz-a-viz conducing homams or performing last rites according to the DS, then we have to assume that the hindus have accepted the DS on these issues and follow its diktats out of their own volition and not because it is being forced down their throats. The thinking contained in your posts and of few others is similar to that of the political goons who use the same logic to perpetrate violence on Brahmins, because they wear poonal and perform sandhyavandhanam according to the DS. Therefore, I feel the charges of prejudice and hatred stands.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

And one or two keep saying that they will desist from posting but forget it soon and do not keep their word. Obviously all the dirt accumulated over decades must be poured out; let us hope good sense prevails after some time and the eyes are opened to see sudhdham, pavitram and vidhanam.

Sarang Sir, I accept that I am guily as charged by you. But I feel if we do not stand up, they will ride rough shod over us. So far I thought only the word "Brahmin" is a source of revulsion but now it is clear that even the word "hindu" does not seem to be acceptable because the title "நான் ஒரு இந்து" that too coming from an ex-atheist seems to have done it. To boot, the article has referred to Christianity and Islam and even though they mentioned only in passing, it is totally unacceptable and they have decided that the Brahmins have to pay for it. Hence the pouring of dirt as you say. It is easier said than done to ignore their vituperations!

 

[Vaagmi]

post #46 for reference:

If, as you seem to claim, brahmins these days are not really bothered about the power or prestige of government jobs or positions of power, it seems surprising to me why a few of the members of this forum get so much worked up when somethings are written in support of the Dravidian movement.

Getting worked up is because we understand the horrible possibilities the hoodwinking and hatred pedling that is going on can ultimately lead the country to. Hitler is green in our memories yet.

And, I don't think that "knowledge is power" under all circumstances today; on the contrary today "Power is knowledge, wealth and everything else that is desirable" will be true and according to me, this was the universal truth at all times.

Knowledge is indeed power. Power flows basically from knowledge.

I think the question of "last laugh" does not arise here because when it comes to directly dealing with the centres of power, the "factoring into project cost" usually does not apply and it is actually factoring into cost for others. As an example, வெண்டைக்காய் or fish or meat to the residences of power centres are usually free or at negligible price and no maamool or anything is factored into that low price.

]

When a mudaliyar or a naidu / kazhagam or any other political party/ politician receives his mamool from me I laugh because just the day before I have heard him talk about corruption in politics from a high moral platform. He is a hypocrite and he is placed in a position by God whom he hates, to come before me smiling and cringing and receive his piece of bone from me. That is what makes me laugh.

 

[sangom]

Either there has been a misunderstanding about what I wrote or deliberate twisting. DS is a corpus of texts and if one finds anything objectionable in them one can criticize the texts all they want. However, just because the corpus of texts exist, which is a given fact, they cannot be used as an excuse to justify hatemongering and discrimination against Brahmins, which is what the coterie to which to you belong does, by simply asserting that "they were all believed to be once written in the name of a brahmana". When I said DS is not relevant I meant it is not relevant (and has not been relevant) to how the state is run. The DS do not control the political, economic, and or social affairs of this country. Even if it is true as is claimed here that the hindu society conducts its religious matters viz-a-viz conducing homams or performing last rites according to the DS, then we have to assume that the hindus have accepted the DS on these issues and follow its diktats out of their own volition and not because it is being forced down their throats. The thinking contained in your posts and of few others is similar to that of the political goons who use the same logic to perpetrate violence on Brahmins, because they wear poonal and perform sandhyavandhanam according to the DS. Therefore, I feel the charges of prejudice and hatred stands.

I think a substantial portion of hindu personal laws is still based on the Mitakshara / daayaabhaaga laws which owe their existence to one Yaajnavalkya Smriti /Jeemoothavaahana. These smriti-based rules still make the foundation of our Hindu Law especially inheritance, co-parcenary rights, etc. I hope you are well aware of this position.

You have still not considered as to why the Kazhagam movement did not take up, as its motto, an anti-Dalit agenda instead of the anti-brahmin agenda of its, especially since the higher NB castes in TN are still arrayed against the Dalits who became lower in status to them as envisaged by the DSs only and not by any other scriptures; even BG appears to endorse the DS pov of caste system only when Krishna - possibly out of momentary forgetfulness that great men will come much later in future and disown the DSs wholesale just to refurbish the image of the brahmin community —

परिचर्र्यात्मकम् कर्म शूद्रस्स्यापि स्वभावजम् | and also in BG 9-32.

It is my considered view that the brahmins were so much resented or perhaps even detested by the rest of the population that made the movement pick the brahmins as their common enemy. Why and how did the minuscule brahmin caste become the eyesore for every one else is the point that an impartial mind should ponder over.

 

[Nara]

....It is my considered view that the brahmins were so much resented or perhaps even detested by the rest of the population that made the movement pick the brahmins as their common enemy. Why and how did the minuscule brahmin caste become the eyesore for every one else is the point that an impartial mind should ponder over.

Unfortunately, asking for even this simple thing makes you, and me as well, brahmin-hater, prejudiced against brahmins, sharing views with hatemongering goons, pouring vituperative dirt that must be stood up to. etc., etc. The message is bad and the messenger is even worse. Alas, they never enter into a discussion of the merits of the case, it is always this same line of personal attack ...

 

[கால பைரவன்]

I am sure other members could also notice this but the strategy followed here in heaping attacks against Brahmins is quite interesting.

It is quite diabolical to simultaneously deny that the movement festered hatemongering against Brahmins (Refer Post# 55) but also try and pin the Brahmins themselves for the movements' anti-Brahmin motto (Refer post #59 and the endorsement to it In post #60).

Both ends are covered this way. Clever and cunning but not honest!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

You have still not considered as to why the Kazhagam movement did not take up, as its motto, an anti-Dalit agenda instead of the anti-brahmin agenda of its, especially since the higher NB castes in TN are still arrayed against the Dalits who became lower in status to them as envisaged by the DSs only and not by any other scriptures

I hold that the myriad of tamil castes and tribes do not depend on the authority of DS or hindu religion to practice caste discrimination. This is not at all difficult to ascertain if one reads history without any bias or at the least take into account the prevalence of caste discrimination among practitioners of other religions also. Though I understand your difficulty in accepting this argument because the very foundation of your anti-Brahmin castle is built on pinning the blame on Brahmins for the discrimination perpetrated in the name of caste, I would like to point out that the quoted portion of your post does not help your case. If as you say the NBs proclaim a higher caste status only on the authority of DS and hence array against the "lowly" dalits again as envisaged only by the DS, then how come the very same NBs picked up the anti-Brahmin motto?

The dominant NBs picked up the anti-Brahmin agenda to capture political power then. They needed a larger faction, so were not openly hostile to the dalits. Now they have added the anti-dalit agenda to the anti-Brahmin agenda to consolidate their power and keep both Brahmins and dalits out!

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Considering the kind of postings made by few incorrigible, intolerant, disgruntled individuals, it sounds like cancer on the system.


P.S: I love to hate blah blah.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

K.D , who was an atheist only for a couple of years has given more or less a confession or his POV on atheism. These few who were probably theist in their earlier part of life, suddenly got enlightenment and now preach all these blah, blah. Anyway, this Forum could be the only platform where they market their products, I believe, taking advantage of silence of most of the learned Members.

 

[sangom]

I hold that the myriad of tamil castes and tribes do not depend on the authority of DS or hindu religion to practice caste discrimination. This is not at all difficult to ascertain if one reads history without any bias or at the least take into account the prevalence of caste discrimination among practitioners of other religions also. Though I understand your difficulty in accepting this argument because the very foundation of your anti-Brahmin castle is built on pinning the blame on Brahmins for the discrimination perpetrated in the name of caste, I would like to point out that the quoted portion of your post does not help your case. If as you say the NBs proclaim a higher caste status only on the authority of DS and hence array against the "lowly" dalits again as envisaged only by the DS, then how come the very same NBs picked up the anti-Brahmin motto?

The dominant NBs picked up the anti-Brahmin agenda to capture political power then. They needed a larger faction, so were not openly hostile to the dalits. Now they have added the anti-dalit agenda to the anti-Brahmin agenda to consolidate their power and keep both Brahmins and dalits out!

I see for the first time some truth slipping out even out of your very biased and ad-hominem oriented keyboard. Kindly elucidate, with reference to the sentence in bold fonts, how an agenda against a very small percentage of the whole population could be thought of by the dominant NBs with the aim of "capturing" political power? From whom did they plan to capture this political power and what was the use of going against brahmins?

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Will any Member enlighten me as to whether Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot are atheist? Is their period of rule can one consider as a Golden period?

 

[sangom]

K.D , who was an atheist only for a couple of years has given more or less a confession or his POV on atheism. These few who were probably theist in their earlier part of life, suddenly got enlightenment and now preach all these blah, blah. Anyway, this Forum could be the only platform where they market their products, I believe, taking advantage of silence of most of the learned Members.

Sir,

Since nothing prevents "most of the learned members" to voice their views in English or Tamil (in case they do not have the skill in English) or any other language, will it not be nearer the truth if I say that the majority - both learned and others - do not want to come out with their views for fear of being maligned by some of your group of members?

The whole of Tamil Nadu, if not India, knows about the entire history of the state and the role which the brahmins had in that history. That was why I remarked, in one of my earlier posts, that the Tabras of Kerala do not get into emotional upsurge like yourself and others of your group and so the Kerala Tabras have become one with the rest of the society in a smooth way.

 

[renuka]

I always never really believed that any community/caste of any kind can never live peacefully..that is if they had no one else to fight with they will start fighting with their own kind!

In this whole thread so far..no Non Brahmin member is taking an active part in this debate and everyone here 'fighting' with each other is a Brahmin!LOL

So I guess its true...humans will somehow pick on something to fight!

 

[sarang]

A couple of virulent BBs who said that they will cease from posting because of reaction from people like you and and a few more, do not listen to themselves, but continue the tirade, and try to convert any discussion to BB. They need neither sympathy nor respect.

Your efforts in exposing them are creditable and praiseworthy. I support you 100%.

Sarang Sir, I accept that I am guily as charged by you. But I feel if we do not stand up, they will ride rough shod over us. So far I thought only the word "Brahmin" is a source of revulsion but now it is clear that even the word "hindu" does not seem to be acceptable because the title "நான் ஒரு இந்து" that too coming from an ex-atheist seems to have done it. To boot, the article has referred to Christianity and Islam and even though they mentioned only in passing, it is totally unacceptable and they have decided that the Brahmins have to pay for it. Hence the pouring of dirt as you say. It is easier said than done to ignore their vituperations!

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Sir,

Since nothing prevents "most of the learned members" to voice their views in English or Tamil (in case they do not have the skill in English) or any other language, will it not be nearer the truth if I say that the majority - both learned and others - do not want to come out with their views for fear of being maligned by some of your group of members?

The whole of Tamil Nadu, if not India, knows about the entire history of the state and the role which the brahmins had in that history. That was why I remarked, in one of my earlier posts, that the Tabras of Kerala do not get into emotional upsurge like yourself and others of your group and so the Kerala Tabras have become one with the rest of the society in a smooth way.

What is the truth? Truth for you cannot be truth for one and all? You cannot prevail your influence upon others. Stick to your belief and go along. Being a senior Member, you should set an example to others by being loveable. Can't your views be presented nicely in a Forum like this.

My dear Sir, don't jump into presumption and assumption. They may even think like this. Why throw a stone into a ditch and get spoil.

Don't talk about the history, bcos we, who are here, do have learnt lot of lessons from the history.

While you are free to express your so-called truth, it is well and good if you maintain the language and tone.

 

[tks]

What is the truth? Truth for you cannot be truth for one and all? You cannot prevail your influence upon others. Stick to your belief and go along. Being a senior Member, are you should set an example to other by being loveable. Can't your views be presented nicely in a Forum like this.

My dear Sir, don't jump into presumption and assumption. They may even think like this. Why throw a stone into a ditch and get spoil.

Don't talk about the history, bcos we, who are here, do have learnt lot of lessons from the history.

While you are free to express your so-called truth, it is well and good if you maintain the language and tone.

Some people love gutter talk. One has to learn to ignore or humor such types

 

[Vaagmi]

Unfortunately, asking for even this simple thing makes you, and me as well, brahmin-hater, prejudiced against brahmins, sharing views with hatemongering goons, pouring vituperative dirt that must be stood up to. etc., etc. The message is bad and the messenger is even worse. Alas, they never enter into a discussion of the merits of the case, it is always this same line of personal attack ...

What a serious misconception of the truth by two senior members of this forum! The message is indeed bad because it speaks untruth . A clever one at that and so the messenger is also guilty. Let us look at it:

This is what Sangom said:
"It is my considered view that the brahmins were so much resented or perhaps even detested by the rest of the population that made the movement pick the brahmins as their common enemy. Why and how did the minuscule brahmin caste become the eyesore for every one else is the point that an impartial mind should ponder over".

The reason why the miniscule brahmin caste became the target of attack has been analysed here again and again. They were hardworking and yet non violent. They were very poor and yet were benevolent. They were disciplined and yet not in a military way with any offensive intent. They were recognized as such and were respected and were taken care of by the kings. This became an eyesore for those middle castes who were rich but were also rapacious, were united in their biradari with offensive intentions and so were always looked at with suspicion, were too much given to every indulgence whether it is drink, gambling, eating or woman. This made them green with envy. The nonviolent nature of the brahmins was a facilitating factor. So they were singled out for being the most visible symbol of every thing that is desirable in this world. And attacked. And then politics took over and everything is okay in politics.

Obviously the prejudices are so strong that the two senior members Sangom and Nara are unable to see the truth. They are sold so much on the hatred opiate marketed by the kazhagams.

They need not protest. They have their rights just as brahmins have their rights. Let them be happy in their domain with their fondest belief system. LOL.

 

[Vaagmi]

I woke up to this reality just now. I am not going to post anymore in this thread for two reasons:

1. It is just two mischevous ones against all others. It is not worth posting here giving respectability to mischevous nonsense.

2. This thread , in all probability, will be closed in a day if it continues the discussion as it is done now.

Let us meet in some other thread. adieu.

 

[sarang]

1. So tambrams are a subset of every state tambrams - kerala, plus other states like karnataka, andhra, gujarat, maharashtra and so on. Perhaps there are no black shirts or caste/bc-obc reservation for education and jobs in kerala.

Tamilnadu brahmins, known as dravida brahmins (settled in dravida desa) like other gauda brahmins, kalinga brahmins were all well respected, welcomed, showered with gifts not only by the kings who sought them out and settled them, but also by the local chieftains and village heads for the rich culture and erudition brought by the brahmins. Their services were useful in religious and temple affairs, explaining dharma, village administration, solving of disputes, teaching of scriptures and all other sastras - ayurveda, natya, building, architecture and everything else.

When the macaulay and the missionaries realised that bharat cannot be conquered and converted unless the brahmins are subdued, they schemed to destroy the well run social structure and demean brahmins. Perhaps a careful, unbiased and unhurried reading of past history will open the eyes of some, if not all.

It is a welcome trend in all internet groups - any deliberate brahmin bashing by the black shirts, pseudo brahmis, self-styled-brahmin reformers - is rebuffed and opposed in equal measure. Traditional activities and discussions are also in full swing with respectable participation.

For a start, the resident BBs can announce that they are no longer brahmins; as there is no khap to excommunicate them.

There is nothing wrong or derogatory in belonging to any varna or avarna. All are human; only if they accept and allow - you live your way, I will live mine; and don't blame, accuse or talk ill of our respected ancestors.

The whole of Tamil Nadu, if not India, knows about the entire history of the state and the role which the brahmins had in that history. That was why I remarked, in one of my earlier posts, that the Tabras of Kerala do not get into emotional upsurge like yourself and others of your group and so the Kerala Tabras have become one with the rest of the society in a smooth way.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

I always never really believed that any community/caste of any kind can never live peacefully..that is if they had no one else to fight with they will start fighting with their own kind!

In this whole thread so far..no Non Brahmin member is taking an active part in this debate and everyone here 'fighting' with each other is a Brahmin!LOL

So I guess its true...humans will somehow pick on something to fight!

Sirs,
Enough is enough. Why not we take a serious note of the above posting? May I humbly request the Learned Members to desist from sending any further refutation on this thread and thus exhibit our oneness. Let the BBs,if they wish, preach their own theory without any one to counter.

Above all we believe God is love. Let us strive to spread love.

It is my humble request.

HAPPY DEEPAVALI

With regards