Anyone interested in discussing case studies

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hi

manas/buddhi/antharakaranas are just ANUMAANAM....NA TU PRATYAKSHAM.......

 

[renuka]

Intellect (buddhi) is not dependent on the indriyas and it is an independent entity.

The intellect depends on input via senses too.I feel its not entirely an independent entity.

For example..if a child is born and he is totally isolated for many years till adulthood ..he would not have a proper discerning intellect cos he had no exposure to the outside world.

He would most probably be very instinct based and psychologically very different from rest of humans.

So technically the intellect learns to form its discerning capability via input from senses too.

 

[sravna]

The intellect depends on input via senses too.I feel its not entirely an independent entity.

For example..if a child is born and he is totally isolated for many years till adulthood ..he would not have a proper discerning intellect cos he had no exposure to the outside world.

He would most probably be very instinct based and psychologically very different from rest of humans.

So technically the intellect learns to form its discerning capability via input from senses too.

Renuka,

I think a child takes time to learn is not because intellect is not capable but the brain needs to develop. The spiritual intellect is well versed in timeless values even from the birth of a person. Just like it takes sometime to understand new language it takes time to undertand the behavior of the people in the context of existing time and space.

 

[renuka]

Renuka,

I think a child takes time to learn is not because intellect is not capable but the brain needs to develop. The spiritual intellect is well versed in timeless values even from the birth of a person. Just like it takes sometime to understand new language it takes time to undertand the behavior of the people in the context of existing time and space.

Dear Sravna,

Intellect could be an entity which evolved from life to life...formed by experiences from each life.

Trials and tribulations..joy and sorrow..loss and gain..victory and defeat all these experiences are relayed to the intellect via our sense organs and imprints are formed and we develop an intellect that can make decisions.

The intellect should be able to make decisions without influence of senses but we can not deny that its becos of the senses that the intellect developed in the first place.

Simple example...learning process for a child.

A child gains experience in life from Mother,Father,Teacher and Environment..then he is able to co-relate every one of this input with his own innate capability.

The innate capability differs from person to person..this is where Vasanas from a different life might have an effect.

The intellect of a child develops with inputs from all directions..including his own internal Vasana effects.

Without input from all directions including within from life to life....the Intellect can not exists.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Intellect could be an entity which evolved from life to life...formed by experiences from each life.

Dear Renuka,

I would agree with the holistic development of intellect i.e, From the whole expereince of one life. It could be within a life when one strives for true knowledge and makes very rigorous efforts.

 

[sangom]

The intellect depends on input via senses too.I feel its not entirely an independent entity.

For example..if a child is born and he is totally isolated for many years till adulthood ..he would not have a proper discerning intellect cos he had no exposure to the outside world.

He would most probably be very instinct based and psychologically very different from rest of humans.

So technically the intellect learns to form its discerning capability via input from senses too.

I feel this is not a correct conclusion. We are talking here of "intellect" which, I feel, is not what "buddhi" signifies. The child in the example may not develop 'capabilities' (which we wrongly identify with 'buddhi') but will definitely have many other capabilities, like Mowgli in the Jungle book. These capacities need not necessarily be all instinct-based.

If "intellect learns to form its discerning capability via input from senses too", it follows that intellect is there independent of sense inputs also. What I say is buddhi is that non-sensory part or aspect of intellect.

 

[sangom]

The intellect depends on input via senses too.I feel its not entirely an independent entity.

For example..if a child is born and he is totally isolated for many years till adulthood ..he would not have a proper discerning intellect cos he had no exposure to the outside world.

He would most probably be very instinct based and psychologically very different from rest of humans.

So technically the intellect learns to form its discerning capability via input from senses too.

As rightly stated by Shri tbs in post No.126, none of these things is pratyaksham for humans. And so debating about these will be futile.

 

[sangom]

Dear Renuka,

I would agree with the holistic development of intellect i.e, From the whole expereince of one life. It could be within a life when one strives for true knowledge and makes very rigorous efforts.

Knowledge is knowledge (i.e., jnaana) and there cannot be true and untrue jnaana.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sravna,

Intellect could be an entity which evolved from life to life...formed by experiences from each life.

Trials and tribulations..joy and sorrow..loss and gain..victory and defeat all these experiences are relayed to the intellect via our sense organs and imprints are formed and we develop an intellect that can make decisions.

The intellect should be able to make decisions without influence of senses but we can not deny that its becos of the senses that the intellect developed in the first place.

Simple example...learning process for a child.

A child gains experience in life from Mother,Father,Teacher and Environment..then he is able to co-relate every one of this input with his own innate capability.

The innate capability differs from person to person..this is where Vasanas from a different life might have an effect.

The intellect of a child develops with inputs from all directions..including his own internal Vasana effects.

Without input from all directions including within from life to life....the Intellect can not exists.

Though there is evidence of past life experiences (PLEs), one collection of authentic cases (I think the largest) by Dr. Ian Stevenson consists of 1200 cases whereas the total number of new births (whether world-wide or in US alone) during the period covered by this collection will be astronomical. This takes us to the possibility that the PLEs are more an aberration of nature than a nature's law.

It is also said that such PLEs usually arise in the cases of sudden or accidental deaths of the previous births; such memories are seldom seen about past births of many centuries ago. Hence, it is safe to assume that some memories of PLEs get attached to the Karmic layer (adhyaasa of Adi Shankara's advaita) and get manifested in the very beginning of the new life. All such cases of PLEs lose the memories by the time they are about 20 years. Hence the PLE phenomenon may after all be only the karmas inherited coming with a coating of PLE memories and not sure proof of the same Aatma coming back in the next life. Actually, just like manas, buddhi, antahkarana, chitta, etc., Aatma is also not pratyaksha and this Aatma concept has taken very deep roots because we are unable to let go of our ahamkaara or I-ness even after death of persons!

 

[tbs]

hi

just pratyaksham....ONLY THIS PHYSICAL BODY....NOT EVEN AATMA......SO THAT ADVAITINS SAY THAT ANIRVACHANANEEYAM.....

just for discussion sake....adavaitins use....ANUMAANA/UPAMAANA/AAGAMA/ARTHAAPATHI/ANUPALADHI as pramanas.....

so chaarvaka theory is very easy for common lay man....like wise.....EVERYBODY TALK ABT AATMA....NOBODY CAN SEE

PHYSICALLY .... so chaarvaka aptly said.....YAAVAD JEEVET..SUKHAM JEEVET....RUNAM GRUTVA GRITHAM PIBHA....

BHASMI BHUTASYA DEHASYA ...PUNRAAGAMANAM KUTAHA?.....

 

[renuka]

dear Sangom ji,

Fair enough if Buddhi is not actually Intellect.

But from where does the Buddhi gets it ability to make decisions and decide?

 

[sravna]

There are only two major factors that come into play in any aspect of a person's life, one is his nature and the other is the environment. Spiritual knowledge and prevailing knowledge place emphasis that are different from each other. Whereas spirituality focuses on the nature, prevailing wisdom focuses on the environment. I will focus on the spiritual approach and explain my understanding of gunas which determine ones natural inclinations.

Intellect is that part of the mind that represents one's true nature in a given birth. Citta and lower mind exert the influence due to past and present resp. Ego is another major player which like intellect may be at various stages of development.

Gunas indicate the extent of spiritual inclinations in a human. In increasing order of spirituality, tamas, rajas and sattva are the three gunas. One guna is predominant in all though everybody has a mix of gunas.

My belief is the following::

Citta, manas - strongest influence
ego - low influence
intellect- low influence

The above represents predominant tamas

citta, mana - low-strong influence
ego-strongest influence
intellect- strong influence

The above represents predominant rajas

citta, manas- low-strong influence
ego- low-strong influence
intellect- strongest influence

The above represents predominant sattva.

Since we are trying to understand the mechanics of a guna, we can try to influence the workings to our advantage. We will try to understand how each of the four functions of mind can be worked upon.