Aryan invasion confusion

[sarma-61]

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Shri Kunjuppu, Shri Yamaka,

I do not know how Shri Kunjuppu forms opinions like —

"i detect a strain of exclusivity and feeling of being hurt as a community. this is coming out in all your posts.
the world is not as black and white as you might think. atleast that is the impression that i get from all your posts."

These are totally new to me; may be my understanding is very poor. How can one person's writing reflect that there is a feeling of hurt as a community? It is strange to me.

And I find I am not the first person to raise such valid, fundamental doubts; another member Shri Gopaindu has started a thread itself called "MIssion statement and objective of starting this website. " There, the owner of this website, Shri Praveen has amply clarified as under:—

"The primary mission is to provide a platform where people from our community (and others) can come together to discuss, find ways and evolve with time. The other primary goal is make this place a ultimate resource for all things related to our tradition, culture and lifestyle."

So, there is no doubt that this forum's primary mission is to provide a platform where people from our community (and others) can come together to discuss, find ways and evolve with time. If others (other than Tamil Brahmins) are members here, they also must have accepted the rules and regulations of this forum and so, for all practical purposes of this forum, they will also behave as if they too are Tamil Brahmins and discuss the various topics which have a relevance to our community, and not somethings with which we and our community have no chance of coming into contact, at least in the foreseeable future.

I support Shri Gopaindu's views in his post #9 in that thread (extract given below):

"Brahminism, I mean beliefs, faith, notions held by Brahminis and also their value system which is totally forgotten or not being followed today. Whenever I say Brahmin, I mean only people who follow the practices of erstwhile real brahmins irrespective of the familles of castes/religions in which they are born. Even now, there may be people who would like to know and practise them and have no resources i.e.the right books, etc. Any organisation should have a mission without which it can not have direction. The most intriguing point is that why this website was called Tamil Brahmins.com and not Hindus.com or Sanathana Dharma.com. Hence, I presumed that the website is for dissemination of knowledge about Brahminism i.e. practices followed by Brahmins."

Shri Yamaka sir,

From what you write, it appears as if you are a very rich, upper crust Tamil Brahmin, or you may be one who has settled down in foreign country and want to prove yourself to be "more Roman than the Romans themselves". But for the tamilbrahmins here in India with limited financial resources, it is their adherence to the time-honoured customs, values, rites and rituals, beliefs (superstitions), etc., which is the central theme of life; they will cease to be Tamilbrahmins if divorced from all these. Children being brought up under the Brahmana samskarams is also an integral and important part of their value system.

 

[Yamaka]

"From what you write, it appears as if you are a very rich, upper crust Tamil Brahmin, or you may be one who has settled down in foreign country and want to prove yourself to be "more Roman than the Romans themselves". But for the tamilbrahmins here in India with limited financial resources, it is their adherence to the time-honoured customs, values, rites and rituals, beliefs (superstitions), etc., which is the central theme of life; they will cease to be Tamilbrahmins if divorced from all these. Children being brought up under the Brahmana samskarams is also an integral and important part of their value system.
"--Sarma-61 wrote.

Hello Sarma:

You did not read my posts right..please read them again.

Our disagreement is on Mr. R who lives here in TX apart from his wife and daughters....because daughters and wife did not like his "strict Brahminical" interpretation of life!

Now, Mr. R is alone without a family... How is it that "his adherence to the time-honoured customs, values, rites and rituals, beliefs (superstitions) etc" help him in his life?

To your information, Kunjuppu, myself and Mr. R are People of Indian Origin (perhaps emigrated about 30 years ago) but still have roots in India, like about 5 million other Indians who live outside India... this does not mean "we prove ourselves more Roman than Romans themselves"!

I take it you neither know Indians nor Romans! We don't need to prove anything to anybody! Lol

You will be better off if you stick to your arguments about Mr. R who is now the biggest loser in life - without a wife or daughters!

Also, please read Praveen's reply to Gopaindu's questions... you seem to routinely mis-read posts! lol

Take care.

 

[sarma-61]

Shri Yamaka sir,

I can only cite the Super Moderator's words in this post http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/6457-flaws-advaita-real-perceived-14.html#post79680.
"when I constantly get PMs from a lot of Forum members here who routinely ask why we are entertaining folks like you, who do not respect our identity as a Brahmin, on the cultural basis?"

If you respect our brahmin identity on the cultural basis, you will realize that it is necessary and worth to live for certain ideals and suffer for that. Your posts and your frequent lols only confirm that you are trying to be more Roman without even knowing. Please don't be under an impression that emigres outside India have acquired a right to preach to locally resident Indians. How will it sound to you people if I say that people found unwanted and unsuitable for India get thrown out and reach some other mleccha country? Probably you will do lol (whatever it means) a few more times, that's all!

 

[Yamaka]

Shri Yamaka sir,

I can only cite the Super Moderator's words in this post http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/6457-flaws-advaita-real-perceived-14.html#post79680.
"when I constantly get PMs from a lot of Forum members here who routinely ask why we are entertaining folks like you, who do not respect our identity as a Brahmin, on the cultural basis?"

If you respect our brahmin identity on the cultural basis, you will realize that it is necessary and worth to live for certain ideals and suffer for that. Your posts and your frequent lols only confirm that you are trying to be more Roman without even knowing. Please don't be under an impression that emigres outside India have acquired a right to preach to locally resident Indians. How will it sound to you people if I say that people found unwanted and unsuitable for India get thrown out and reach some other mleccha country? Probably you will do lol (whatever it means) a few more times, that's all!

Hello Sarma:

Again, I suggest you read Praveen's answer on this issue..

I have never conveyed "an impression that emigres outside India have acquired a right to preach to locally resident Indians". Please show me any posts of mine!

Perhaps, you suffer from a deep seated inferiority which you unknowingly exhibit here! Lol.

You see, Tamil Brahmins or Tamils or Brahmins are not of single group as far as their views on anything is concerned... they are of myriad sub-groups.. you say what you want to say, and let others say what they want to say...

Let the Moderator/Editor or the owner decide what to publish and what not to publish...

Regarding Mr R: Yes, he is facing the consequences of his interpretation of his Brahminical Virtues....

My opinion is people need not be with that kind of bloated ego, which leaves them destitute, IMO!

Where's the problem?

 

[ShivKC]

by any chance YAMAKA is cloned form of sh.NARA. requesting an IP mapping

i was wrong in thinking this place would be better without the three prone brahmin bashers NHS group, and it was going well for last 2 weeks, and now here is some one with hood, throwing spanner again

 

[Raghy]

by any chance YAMAKA is cloned form of sh.NARA. requesting an IP mapping

i was wrong in thinking this place would be better without the three prone brahmin bashers NHS group, and it was going well for last 2 weeks, and now here is some one with hood, throwing spanner again

Kindly allow me to record my protest, please. If you have a doubt, kindly send the moderator a PM. Insulting messages such this are objectionable.

 

[ShivKC]

let me repeat once more sarma. please read the mission statement and guidleines of this forum.

this forum eixists for all people, and has an ecletic view of the world. i think as long as there is no offensive posts written against the brahmins, we are ok. that is why we have the moderator.

.

sir, in English, they politely address this with a proverb: foot in the mouth.

you , sh.nara,happyhindu,sangom and now a clone yamaka are no exemption to your own word. i can quote thousands of brahmin offensive posts, from all those.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

TO ALL,
Let us all do our bit to maintain decency and decorum in this Forum.Even in one family,views of all members may not be alike.
LET all of us develop the good habit to have tolerance and do not try to score over others.In this forum,I enjoy to see different view point of members.I would like to share a beautiful Thought with all the members.
EASIER THAN IT SEEMS!
Learn to create SILENCE in your MIND and PEACE will flourish in your SOUL.
To be internally SILENT,do not THINK too much.
TRUST YOURSELF!TRUST OTHERS!TRUST LIFE!
You will find it EASIER than it SEEMS!

 

[Yamaka]

by any chance YAMAKA is cloned form of sh.NARA. requesting an IP mapping

i was wrong in thinking this place would be better without the three prone brahmin bashers NHS group, and it was going well for last 2 weeks, and now here is some one with hood, throwing spanner again

Hi Shiv:

Tell me just one particular post of mine that ruffled your broken feathers!

This Forum is for all sorts of views - its strength!

If you have thin skin, you should not be reading any blogs or blogposts!! You have to stay inside the rock and pray everything will be fine... and the God will come and serve you with Salvation!

These blogposts are meant for Open Minded People, not for you! Please see your doctor!! Lol

 

[Yamaka]

"you , sh.nara,happyhindu,sangom and now a clone yamaka are no exemption to your own word. i can quote thousands of brahmin offensive posts, from all those."

Hi Shiv:

Don't cry like a baby... come out of your high horse and show your face - let's see what you have in terms of content!

Make a coherent argument why you ARE NOT wrong!

 

[london swaminathan]

Aryan invasion theory is a myth. The Vedic period overlaps the Indus valley civilization period (2500 BC to 1700 BC). First they started the theory without any proof-just on the basis of linguistic similarities between Sanskrit and European languages. Swami Vivekananda, Mahatma Gandhi, Sri Aurobindo and Babasaheb Ambedkar --all opposed this theory vehemently. After the excavation at Indus Valley the foreigners even stated saying that the Aryans killed many Dravidians and drove others to South India. According to them Indra killed 2,73,000 dravidians or aborigines who spoke munda or tamil langauges. Rig Veda 6-26 says 100000 killed and later it says another 60,000 killed.RV 4-30 says another 100 000 killed by Indra. RV 1-53 says 10.000 killed and RV 6-27 says another 3000 killed.
My question is
Where are the skeletons of those killed? They recovered only 35 skeletons from the Indus vally sites.Later some more were recovered from other sites.Where are the Dravidian skeletons and where are the Aryan skeletons?
They also must have died during the clashes or after the clashes (natural deaths).So far there is no aryan or dravidian skeleton from the site. There is always a controversy about the ethnicity of those skeletons.
If the invading aryans came in horse driven chariots where are the bones of the horses? They have recovered only bones of onagers- not horses
If we accept the argument of nomadic aryan illiterates defeating the highly civilized Indus vally people, dont we accept all the Dravidians were cowards?
They say that Indus valley seals never showed horses.
My question is where ae the cows?Thousands of seals show only bulls.If there are bulls there must be cows.
Is there a single seal which showed the cows? No.

Now I will explain all these things:
There is no Aryan or Dravidian according to Indian scriptures.
The Rig Veda speaks about Pancha Janas and Dasas and Dasyus.
Dasas and Dasyus were Panis (Phoenicians who stole the cows of the so called Aryans. They were business people. We derived the words Panam, Vanik, Banias all from the phoenicians -all about money.
Puranas speak about 18 classes of people including Devas, Rakshasas, Gandharvas,Kinnaras,Yakshas, Nagas,people like us etc. The Puranas very clearly say that they were all born to the same parents.The fact of the matter is that only indigenous people lived there-but at different levels following different set of beliefs and rules.
They were all brothers and sisters. Hundreds of anecdotes in Puranas and epics show that they married one another.If some studies Rk and other vedas, like Aurobindo, we will conclude that a lot of things are metaphorical. You should not take them literally.But there is history as well.We have to be very careful in sifting those facts.

If we beileve Aryan Invasion theory then whatever we read about Kali yuga, swapara yuga etc will become lies.Because all these are before the Indus period.That is why I say there is an overlapping.If we believe our scriptures then the Indus valley people are our own.

Please visit my blogspot swamiindology.blogspot for more information

I will give some facts from Purananuru (Tamil cankam Literature), Brhadaranya Upanishad (800 BC) and Megasthanese (3rd century BC) later. All these three say that Indians are living for thousands of years with king lists.In Purananuru Kapilar ,the great Brahmin poet talks about 49 generations of the Yadava King Irunkovel.
Brhadarnya Upanishad had given the names of sixty generations of Acharyas .Mehasthanese speaks about the 143rd Indian King in 3rd century BC. If we beileve thse three sources then the Indus valley people are our own people.There is no Aryan or Dravidian in our scriptures with racial connotations.

 

[Yamaka]

Aryan invasion theory is a myth. The Vedic period overlaps the Indus valley civilization period (2500 BC to 1700 BC). First they started the theory without any proof-just on the basis of linguistic similarities between Sanskrit and European languages. Swami Vivekananda, Mahatma Gandhi, Sri Aurobindo and Babasaheb Ambedkar --all opposed this theory vehemently. After the excavation at Indus Valley the foreigners even stated saying that the Aryans killed many Dravidians and drove others to South India. According to them Indra killed 2,73,000 dravidians or aborigines who spoke munda or tamil langauges. Rig Veda 6-26 says 100000 killed and later it says another 60,000 killed.RV 4-30 says another 100 000 killed by Indra. RV 1-53 says 10.000 killed and RV 6-27 says another 3000 killed.
My question is
Where are the skeletons of those killed? They recovered only 35 skeletons from the Indus vally sites.Later some more were recovered from other sites.Where are the Dravidian skeletons and where are the Aryan skeletons?
They also must have died during the clashes or after the clashes (natural deaths).So far there is no aryan or dravidian skeleton from the site. There is always a controversy about the ethnicity of those skeletons.
If the invading aryans came in horse driven chariots where are the bones of the horses? They have recovered only bones of onagers- not horses
If we accept the argument of nomadic aryan illiterates defeating the highly civilized Indus vally people, dont we accept all the Dravidians were cowards?
They say that Indus valley seals never showed horses.
My question is where ae the cows?Thousands of seals show only bulls.If there are bulls there must be cows.
Is there a single seal which showed the cows? No.

Now I will explain all these things:
There is no Aryan or Dravidian according to Indian scriptures.
The Rig Veda speaks about Pancha Janas and Dasas and Dasyus.
Dasas and Dasyus were Panis (Phoenicians who stole the cows of the so called Aryans. They were business people. We derived the words Panam, Vanik, Banias all from the phoenicians -all about money.
Puranas speak about 18 classes of people including Devas, Rakshasas, Gandharvas,Kinnaras,Yakshas, Nagas,people like us etc. The Puranas very clearly say that they were all born to the same parents.The fact of the matter is that only indigenous people lived there-but at different levels following different set of beliefs and rules.
They were all brothers and sisters. Hundreds of anecdotes in Puranas and epics show that they married one another.If some studies Rk and other vedas, like Aurobindo, we will conclude that a lot of things are metaphorical. You should not take them literally.But there is history as well.We have to be very careful in sifting those facts.

If we beileve Aryan Invasion theory then whatever we read about Kali yuga, swapara yuga etc will become lies.Because all these are before the Indus period.That is why I say there is an overlapping.If we believe our scriptures then the Indus valley people are our own.

Please visit my blogspot swamiindology.blogspot for more information

I will give some facts from Purananuru (Tamil cankam Literature), Brhadaranya Upanishad (800 BC) and Megasthanese (3rd century BC) later. All these three say that Indians are living for thousands of years with king lists.In Purananuru Kapilar ,the great Brahmin poet talks about 49 generations of the Yadava King Irunkovel.
Brhadarnya Upanishad had given the names of sixty generations of Acharyas .Mehasthanese speaks about the 143rd Indian King in 3rd century BC. If we beileve thse three sources then the Indus valley people are our own people.There is no Aryan or Dravidian in our scriptures with racial connotations.

Hi London S:

"If we beileve Aryan Invasion theory then whatever we read about Kali yuga, swapara yuga etc will become lies.Because all these are before the Indus period.That is why I say there is an overlapping.If we believe our scriptures then the Indus valley people are our own."

1. I believe Kali yuga etc are imaginary... fictional... not REAL.

2. Take randomly 100 people (male & female) from Kashmir, 100 from Kanyakumari (South most part of India), 100 from Kenya and 100 from the aboriginals of Australia.

By just visual examination you will immediately say that Kashmiris are distinctly different from the rest. Why?

Because in terms of melanin content other three groups are very similar. Why?

This is what I explain in my posts..

3. I agree with you that we don't have sufficient archeological remains to construct a smooth story.

But, mitochondrial DNA haplotypes M 17 concur with what I am saying.

4. My conclusion is there was a massive human movement ( I don't want to use words like "Invasion" - others use it in a political sense) from the steppe lands of Turkmanistan/Kazhakstan towards India about 5000 years ago - the exact date is not certain; probably they faced a stiff resistance from the Abroriginal people of India (we call Dravidians politically) initially - later they started to co-habit the lush fertile lands of Indus and Ganges. They inter-married between the Aryans and Dravidians.

(Anti inter-caste, inter-faith marriages are all happened much later, about 1000 years ago, IMO)

This creates a gradation of color in terms of melanin pigments in India - high melanin content in Kanyakumari (similar to Kenyans and Australian Aboriginals) and the least amount in Kashmir - there is a hue of skin color.

In my opinion, melanin content is the key to identify who moved out of Africa first, and who moved from the Northern hemisphere (after living about 100,000 years or so) towards the Southern hot tropical climate, closer to Sun.

Cheers.

ps. Most of the Epic literature (written about 2000 years ago) is fictional... poets have license to stretch the truths.. their aim is to make the story interesting... they are not bothered about truthfulness of the events... they "imagine" and "visualize" in their mind certain events - they may have a few morals to convey to the audience/readers... that's all... we should not take each and every sentence in the literal sense, as you indicated in some context.

 

[tks]

Sarma Sir:

As I said Mr. R is a very strict Brahmin: In his bloated ego he wanted to control the lives of his daughters, who rebelled, for they want to live their lives as per their wishes...

If you like Mr. R, fine... that's your opinion, your choice! I hope your kids also like it....

I sympathize with the girls, and I totally reject your assertion "it is people with such firm convictions who alone will be able to do some good for our Tamil Brahmin community.."

As adults, our kids MUST live their lives according to their view of the world....not anybody else'!

After age 18, my kids became my friends...I suggest a few things... if they like they take it, if not they flatly refuse and explain why they refuse to toe my lines!

That's exactly what I want them to do....

Cheers.

Mr y -

I sense a certain prejudice and what may be a 'subtle' put down of a Brahminism in your message.

If Mr. R is a person who is a 'loser' (using your description) with 'bloated ego', has a broken marriage and bad relationship with his daughters what does it have to do with him being a 'strict brahmin' according to you? Why are you bringing up the Brahmin connection in this context of describing a loser? What do you know about Brahminism that you seem to imply that there is a 'quid pro quo' connection between being a loser and his 'strict practice' of Brahminism? Anyone can claim any practice! How do you know his practice of whatever you understand to be 'Brahminism' that contributed to his broken relationship?

If there is a sad broken family, the context of Brahminism has no relevance any more than association to any other culture or religion, in my view. When you make the connection of an individual’s negative results in life with their self-proclaimed tradition/culture/ religion you are bashing that tradition and thereby subtly bash everyone who is a follower of that tradition. At a minimum this kind of reasoning could be interpreted as a disrespect especially since you claim to be not a 'Brahmin' by whatever that word means to you.

My understanding of Brahminism is that it does not preach any extreme behavior that you described for Mr R.

I think Sri Sarma and others are reacting to this so called 'subtle' connection that comes actually across as a blatant statement of a prejudiced view point. No amount of LOL can soften such a negative message in my view.

Regards,

 

[renuka]

Aryan invasion theory is a myth. The Vedic period overlaps the Indus valley civilization period (2500 BC to 1700 BC). First they started the theory without any proof-just on the basis of linguistic similarities between Sanskrit and European languages. Swami Vivekananda, Mahatma Gandhi, Sri Aurobindo and Babasaheb Ambedkar --all opposed this theory vehemently. After the excavation at Indus Valley the foreigners even stated saying that the Aryans killed many Dravidians and drove others to South India. According to them Indra killed 2,73,000 dravidians or aborigines who spoke munda or tamil langauges. Rig Veda 6-26 says 100000 killed and later it says another 60,000 killed.RV 4-30 says another 100 000 killed by Indra. RV 1-53 says 10.000 killed and RV 6-27 says another 3000 killed.
My question is
Where are the skeletons of those killed? They recovered only 35 skeletons from the Indus vally sites.Later some more were recovered from other sites.Where are the Dravidian skeletons and where are the Aryan skeletons?
They also must have died during the clashes or after the clashes (natural deaths).So far there is no aryan or dravidian skeleton from the site. There is always a controversy about the ethnicity of those skeletons.
If the invading aryans came in horse driven chariots where are the bones of the horses? They have recovered only bones of onagers- not horses
If we accept the argument of nomadic aryan illiterates defeating the highly civilized Indus vally people, dont we accept all the Dravidians were cowards?
They say that Indus valley seals never showed horses.
My question is where ae the cows?Thousands of seals show only bulls.If there are bulls there must be cows.
Is there a single seal which showed the cows? No.

Now I will explain all these things:
There is no Aryan or Dravidian according to Indian scriptures.
The Rig Veda speaks about Pancha Janas and Dasas and Dasyus.
Dasas and Dasyus were Panis (Phoenicians who stole the cows of the so called Aryans. They were business people. We derived the words Panam, Vanik, Banias all from the phoenicians -all about money.
Puranas speak about 18 classes of people including Devas, Rakshasas, Gandharvas,Kinnaras,Yakshas, Nagas,people like us etc. The Puranas very clearly say that they were all born to the same parents.The fact of the matter is that only indigenous people lived there-but at different levels following different set of beliefs and rules.
They were all brothers and sisters. Hundreds of anecdotes in Puranas and epics show that they married one another.If some studies Rk and other vedas, like Aurobindo, we will conclude that a lot of things are metaphorical. You should not take them literally.But there is history as well.We have to be very careful in sifting those facts.

If we beileve Aryan Invasion theory then whatever we read about Kali yuga, swapara yuga etc will become lies.Because all these are before the Indus period.That is why I say there is an overlapping.If we believe our scriptures then the Indus valley people are our own.

Please visit my blogspot swamiindology.blogspot for more information

I will give some facts from Purananuru (Tamil cankam Literature), Brhadaranya Upanishad (800 BC) and Megasthanese (3rd century BC) later. All these three say that Indians are living for thousands of years with king lists.In Purananuru Kapilar ,the great Brahmin poet talks about 49 generations of the Yadava King Irunkovel.
Brhadarnya Upanishad had given the names of sixty generations of Acharyas .Mehasthanese speaks about the 143rd Indian King in 3rd century BC. If we beileve thse three sources then the Indus valley people are our own people.There is no Aryan or Dravidian in our scriptures with racial connotations.

Dear Sir,
Thats the point which I brought up earlier..about other Yugas.We Hindus were already actively practising religion and civilization even in Sathya Yuga and we do have have evidence for the Rama Sethu via satelite pics..so thats one strong back up point.

Even in Ramayana..Kaikeyi was from some far off place which was Persia.
I guess the in Hindu empires were much larger in those days they could have been inter ethnic assimilation becos at that time there was only Sanathana Dharma and no other religion so inter ethnic marriages were common.

Even in Ramayana..When Hanuman goes searching for Sita he will see Ravan's Harem of woman with different skin colors and looks..denoting variuos races.

Many say that all Purans and Scriptures are not true..but we have no real evidence to disprove them either.

I dont really think poets and saints were so delusional and almost marijuana aided as to imagine all these stories.
So I will still stick to my believe that Aryan is just a terminology for A Noble One and Dravidian is just a Geographical Location and not races.

 

[Nara]

... At a minimum this kind of reasoning could be interpreted as a disrespect especially since you claim to be not a 'Brahmin' by whatever that word means to you.

My understanding of Brahminism is that it does not preach any extreme behavior that you described for Mr R.

Such spirited defence of Brahminism is enough to awaken this Kumbakarnan, yours truly. For sure Mr Y can defend his views much better than I can, and he may even loath the support from an ignoramus -- me, but here I am, an erstwhile Brahmin and therefore, whose criticism, disrespectful though it may be, is at least free of Mr. Y's birth status as a reason to be adjudged disrespectful.

Of course, everyone has the right to define what Brahminism means to him/her, but they do not have the right to expect their understanding be accepted as the "right" understanding. From both the orthodox and lay perspective, one thing is clear, to be a Brahmin is to be born one. Further, for both the orthodox and the lay, to be a strict Brahmin is to bring your girls up to be god fearing, obedient to males, modest, etc., and above all, never even consider having a boy-friend, especially outside one's own sub-caste. BTW, this is true of strict followers of Brahminism of other castes as well, but then here, Mr. R is apparently a Brahmin.

The individual "understanding" of what Brahminism is not withstanding, this is the face of Brahminism that our youngsters see when practiced in the strict sense in which Mr. R. seems to be practicing. If he were to free himself from such traditional and anachronistic mindset, he could enjoy the real pleasures of life, the company of loving daughters -- for some reason it is the daughters who are able to show affection readily than sons. It is a great pity that this Mr. R. is missing all this, and from what Mr. Y. has stated, it seems it is all because he is a prisoner of his own Brahminism culture.

Cheers, and back to my slumber please!

 

[renuka]

Dear Nara Anna,

Welcome back!!!

 

[renuka]

Such spirited defence of Brahminism is enough to awaken this Kumbakarnan, yours truly. For sure Mr Y can defend his views much better than I can, and he may even loath the support from an ignoramus -- me, but here I am, an erstwhile Brahmin and therefore, whose criticism, disrespectful though it may be, is at least free of Mr. Y's birth status as a reason to be adjudged disrespectful.

Of course, everyone has the right to define what Brahminism means to him/her, but they do not have the right to expect their understanding be accepted as the "right" understanding. From both the orthodox and lay perspective, one thing is clear, to be a Brahmin is to be born one. Further, for both the orthodox and the lay, to be a strict Brahmin is to bring your girls up to be god fearing, obedient to males, modest, etc., and above all, never even consider having a boy-friend, especially outside one's own sub-caste. BTW, this is true of strict followers of Brahminism of other castes as well, but then here, Mr. R is apparently a Brahmin.

The individual "understanding" of what Brahminism is not withstanding, this is the face of Brahminism that our youngsters see when practiced in the strict sense in which Mr. R. seems to be practicing. If he were to free himself from such traditional and anachronistic mindset, he could enjoy the real pleasures of life, the company of loving daughters -- for some reason it is the daughters who are able to show affection readily than sons. It is a great pity that this Mr. R. is missing all this, and from what Mr. Y. has stated, it seems it is all because he is a prisoner of his own Brahminism culture.

Cheers, and back to my slumber please!

Dear Anna,

I am not going to let you sleep..You see the whole point we are missing here is that the word Brahminism need not be included in the 1st place.
You see this whole story of Mr R walking out from his family can happen in any community.

All he did was walk out!!! He didnt resort to Honour Killing like what some cultures practise.
Mr R was disappointed because things didn't go the way he wanted..that situation can happen to anyone of us or may be had already happened.

Some people give in eventually after having cried a long time and some still hold on to their principles and walk out but I am sure the love Mr R has for his daughters will still be the same.

I have seen a similar situation before where parents were hurt when their son converted and married and Non Hindu girl without their knowledge.

They felt let down..they felt hurt that all their years of bringing up their son as a Hindu was just thrown out of the door.
They were never strictly imposing types but those who allowed reasonable Q and A and very practical in life..still this happened.

After a while..they felt less hurt and are on cordial ties but still the hurt remains.

When I see this..all I feel is as long we did our duties as parents that should be enough.
When hatchlings have wings they will fly where they wish..we can only show them the direction and nothing more.

I dont agree when you say that Mr R lost out the love from his daughters.
May be Mr R is happy..may be thats what he wants and the best for him.

One learned person once told me.."sometimes what seems like Adharma to the whole world might be the best suited for you"

Some might view that advise as a license for Adharma but if you dissect it further we will realize that sometimes we are born to face any situation solely to get out of it by our Viveka so that we dont face it again in another life.

We only get hurt when we expect something ..even love from spouse or children or anyone.

May be Mr R is already practising :

Karmanyevadhikaraste Ma Phalesu Kadacana.

No one did a follow up study on Mr R..so its not fair we hear only one side of the story.

 

[kunjuppu]

renu,

i think it is best that we leave Mr. R out of our equation.

all that we know is a view of the situation as reported by Yamaka. and that too, from, what i understand, was a brief meeting at the convocation.

வீட்டுக்கு வீடு வாசைப்படி

Mr. R, God Bless where he is, all we know, has a disfunctional family. the causes of it, is beyond our comprehension. i think, it is best that we drop him, his family and the daughters.

what Y reported that he heard, was the wife or the daughters' pov. i am quite sure Mr. R has his own views. since we do not know both sides, or atleast a visibility to both sides, i think, we need to drop it, instead of getting worked up. who knows what really happened!!

still, i think, uncompromising 'religiosity' can cause more sorrows, than maintaining or uplifting, the very values that it claims to uphold. this is my personal opinion. i too have stories re such, but will save them for another more appropriate occassion.

bestest wishes.

 

[tks]

Such spirited defence of Brahminism is enough to awaken this Kumbakarnan, yours truly. For sure Mr Y can defend his views much better than I can, and he may even loath the support from an ignoramus -- me, but here I am, an erstwhile Brahmin and therefore, whose criticism, disrespectful though it may be, is at least free of Mr. Y's birth status as a reason to be adjudged disrespectful.

Of course, everyone has the right to define what Brahminism means to him/her, but they do not have the right to expect their understanding be accepted as the "right" understanding. From both the orthodox and lay perspective, one thing is clear, to be a Brahmin is to be born one. Further, for both the orthodox and the lay, to be a strict Brahmin is to bring your girls up to be god fearing, obedient to males, modest, etc., and above all, never even consider having a boy-friend, especially outside one's own sub-caste. BTW, this is true of strict followers of Brahminism of other castes as well, but then here, Mr. R is apparently a Brahmin.

The individual "understanding" of what Brahminism is not withstanding, this is the face of Brahminism that our youngsters see when practiced in the strict sense in which Mr. R. seems to be practicing. If he were to free himself from such traditional and anachronistic mindset, he could enjoy the real pleasures of life, the company of loving daughters -- for some reason it is the daughters who are able to show affection readily than sons. It is a great pity that this Mr. R. is missing all this, and from what Mr. Y. has stated, it seems it is all because he is a prisoner of his own Brahminism culture.

Cheers, and back to my slumber please!

Mr Nara -

Welcome back to the forum! I never thought you really left.

I thought we have tacitly agreed to disagree with your world view about the word Brahmin since I consider your views to propagate hate message about Brahminism in today's world. You are welcome to your views. I have chosen to not engage with you because I understood from your messages that you want the world to change so that you can continue to hang on to your views. It is like a person having Jaundice, seeing the world yellow and then asking everyone to paint themselves in different color in order to cure the problem.

I was not defending Brahminism. I was calling attention to a post that was a prejudicial. I feel prejudice of all forms when appropriate to be called out at least once so that the person may recognize and do the needful.

Mr Y has stated has proclaimed a few times on his own that he is not a Brahmin. I consider a person who has proclaimed tradition X to go to a forum of tradition Y and bashing their practice to be particularly disrespectful.

We have a devout Muslim family near my house who send vegetarian food items to us once a year on their holy days. My wife invites them to our Golu festival. We have on occasion engaged in interfaith dialogs. I will never go to their house and make a disrespectful statement like 'I have a friend Mr R - a devout Sunni Muslim. What a tragedy that he has become a terrorist’ implying that all Muslims are terrorists.

Brahminism identity is by far cultural (I don’t expect you to agree) with an intent to live up to the ideal of the meaning of the word as provided in Gita (Chapter 18) for example. I don’t consider birth as a necessary or sufficient condition to be a Brahmin.

Peace,

 

[Yamaka]

Mr y -

I sense a certain prejudice and what may be a 'subtle' put down of a Brahminism in your message.

If Mr. R is a person who is a 'loser' (using your description) with 'bloated ego', has a broken marriage and bad relationship with his daughters what does it have to do with him being a 'strict brahmin' according to you? Why are you bringing up the Brahmin connection in this context of describing a loser? What do you know about Brahminism that you seem to imply that there is a 'quid pro quo' connection between being a loser and his 'strict practice' of Brahminism? Anyone can claim any practice! How do you know his practice of whatever you understand to be 'Brahminism' that contributed to his broken relationship?

If there is a sad broken family, the context of Brahminism has no relevance any more than association to any other culture or religion, in my view. When you make the connection of an individual’s negative results in life with their self-proclaimed tradition/culture/ religion you are bashing that tradition and thereby subtly bash everyone who is a follower of that tradition. At a minimum this kind of reasoning could be interpreted as a disrespect especially since you claim to be not a 'Brahmin' by whatever that word means to you.

My understanding of Brahminism is that it does not preach any extreme behavior that you described for Mr R.

I think Sri Sarma and others are reacting to this so called 'subtle' connection that comes actually across as a blatant statement of a prejudiced view point. No amount of LOL can soften such a negative message in my view.

Regards,

Dear tks Sir:

1. Yes, I am not a Brahmin; what little I know was taught by my wife who is a Trichy TB.

2. My wife learnt from Mr. R's wife that "he is a strict Brahmin"; whether he is your type of a Brahmin or some other version I don't know. His version of Brahminism has been the bone of contention in the family, as we understand it.

In this context, I am reminded now that in one of our earlier exchanges you said that your version of Brahminism is NOT what "regular temple goers" practice in Madurai, Trichy or Chennai.

3. In the given situation of Mr. R and his wife & daughters, I sympathize with the daughters; yes, to me Mr. R comes across as a man of "bloated ego" and he is a "loser" in my eyes.

You, Sarma and others may have sympathy for Mr. R... that's your pov which is fine with me.

4. I never said "ALL Brahmins are with bloated ego" and are therefore "losers"!

You see whatever we write, our pov comes across crystal clear; that's the whole point of blogs and blogposts, I believe.

5. I may have certain "subtle' bias, but I don't have blatant statement of prejudice, believe me!

6. I have this practice of laughing out loud when I write about politics, culture or my pov etc.. that I show by lol -- this you may consider as a style of writing!

7. Someone said that I am "a clone of Nara"! What do you think? I know I like many views of Mr. N and I also vehemently disagree with him on many other things.

Please keep writing... I always read you posts with interest for you have a PhD in Physics!

Cheers.

Regards.

Y

 

[Nara]

Dear தங்கச்சி,

I am not going to let you sleep..

you are always partial to your anna, and if Kollywood's பாசமலர் is even partially true, how can I resist.

You see the whole point we are missing here is that the word Brahminism need not be included in the 1st place.

By this if you mean that Brahminism is not the only culprit and there are other cultures that engage in even more despicable practices as honor killing, then, I agree. But, I think I can condemn honor killing and also express opposition to what Brahminism stands for, both in theory and practice.

What exactly is Mr. R's present state of mind, I know not. But, I feel, from a longer and more complex life experience, I can say that there is no greater bliss than the loving company of one's own children and grandchildren. There can be nothing more important to me than to spoil my grandchildren, I can simply not care any less who my son-in-law or daughter-in-law is -- even though I love my DIL just as much much as my own son, and whoever my daughter wants to be my SIL .

Mr. R walked out, and if that made him happy, then good for him. But, I think most common people in his position will only feel miserable -- leaving the very people who only want to love him if only he will let them.

We bring up our children because of biological imperative. Look at the birds, free of the so called sixth sense, risk their lives to eat as much as they can only to regurgitate and feed their younguns. In return, those youngsters fly away when they are able, never to return. In contrast, all our kids want is to be close to us, if only we will let them.

Love not shared is useless. Love that is conditioned is not love at all, it is just selfishness. Predicating love on things ephemeral is, at the very least is foolish, but more importantly, IMO, hypocritical for those who subscribe to Adviatiam, a philosophy that preaches the jagat is nothing but illusion.

Mr. R may be a happy man standing true to his misguided ideal, but his model will only usher heartache and misery to the common folks, the one's for whom A, or VA or D, is nothing but வறட்டு வேதாந்தம் (varattu vedantham).

best regards sis!

 

[Yamaka]

"Mr Y has stated has proclaimed a few times on his own that he is not a Brahmin. I consider a person who has proclaimed tradition X to go to a forum of tradition Y and bashing their practice to be particularly disrespectful."- said tks

Dear tks Sir:

Please tell me what tradition Y was I bashing that was to be particularly disrespectful?

Remember, we were talking about Mr. R: I called him as "a man of bloated ego" and a "loser" (with the information that we have; and we did not have a chance to talk to him; may be, as K and Renuka said the story is not that simple - that we need more information. I agree).

I repeat I never said "All Brahmins are people of bloated ego" and are "losers".

You are deliberately over-reacting... that's fine with me! You may also pour gas on a fire for fun!! Lol.

Regards

Y

 

[kunjuppu]

to the good folks in general,

what i have found recently, particularly, in this forum, is how english language can be misunderstood. sometimes out of culture bias, sometimes willingly and sometimes unknowingly.

in the context of these past recent posts, the word 'loser' is, to me atleast, is the focus.

depending on the context, 'loser' is a very heavy term in north american colloquialism, but not so humiliating as in what i understand, to be in indian context.

in the situation as described by Yamaka, i would read, that Mr. R, has through certain of his voliation, has chose or unwittingly, deprived himself, not only of the comfort of his family, but also the joys of attending success functions like the graduation. and maybe their weddings.

in a bigger context, the loss is a family loss. for surely Mr.R will be the elephant in the room whose absence is felt, but nobody will acknowledge. it hurts. everyone. Mr.R more? maybe. who knows?

while tks' post #69 can be explained in the context that how he undrerstood Y's repartee, perhaps i think, he did not give Y the benefit of the doubt, that some sympathy or empathy, may be too besotted to Mr.R's wife and children. are they not humans too? for two girls, brown immigrants at that too, in that most competitive of competitve environments in the world, to achieve what it is said they did, don't we atleast owe to raise our hats at their achievements?

we, third parties, knowing none of their family circumstances, except knowing that these are high achieving girls, should we not atleast extend a hand of congrats to them?

i, for one, if i see a similar situation, would grieve. first for the situation, next for the wife/daughters, and tangentially perhaps for the father - based on what was told me by the family. no matter what, the father by not participating in the glories and achievements of the daughters, has missed out a lot. he 'lost' something. many things. big things. in that context, i have no problem, feeling his loss, and acknowledging the fact, that he is a 'loser' - a term, that can describe him in all perspectives.

ofcourse, his voice is not heard here. so, i hope, the father has found peace. without his family. God Bless.

 

[Nara]

....Brahminism identity is by far cultural (I don’t expect you to agree) with an intent to live up to the ideal of the meaning of the word as provided in Gita (Chapter 18) for example. I don’t consider birth as a necessary or sufficient condition to be a Brahmin.

Dear tks,

Please do not take this as anything other than a mere disagreement of POV.

To me, defining a good person as something more than just a good person, but a "Brahmin", as you seem to suggest with your citation of Ch 18 of BG, is one of the most offensive things humans can envision, especially considering what BG says in Chapter 9. But then, that is just me, no expectation on my part that anyone will agree with me.

Coming to Mr. Y., who he is, what he is, must be least of our concern, the relevant question is nothing more, or less, than the validity of what he says. I find his unquestioning support of Obama troublesome, but that is just what it is -- it is what it is.

On the other hand, I find the views he expresses on social issues spot on. Now, what am I to do, because he is not born to bramin caste his views on social customs, if not agreeable to me, ipso facto, disrespectful? What about my own views, one who has voluntarily discarded the முப்புரிநூல், having been quite orthodox, never having missed sandhya three times a day? Are my views any less disrespectful because of it?

The fact is, as an individual, we all owe more to our own progeny than the norm set by the society. The society at large could care less whether Mr. R is happy or not. They may argue he is an example for all the rest of the wannabe orthodox. But then, when it comes to their own kith and kin, how many will do what our metaphorical Mr. R. did? Happily, I know most will eloquently pay homage to Mr. R., but will opt for more practical and less glamorous accommodation with the younguns. You may decry this hypocrisy, but this hypocrisy is one I can happily endorse.

Cheers!

 

[tks]

Dear tks Sir:

1. Yes, I am not a Brahmin; what little I know was taught by my wife who is a Trichy TB.

2. My wife learnt from Mr. R's wife that "he is a strict Brahmin"; whether he is your type of a Brahmin or some other version I don't know. His version of Brahminism has been the bone of contention in the family, as we understand it.

In this context, I am reminded now that in one of our earlier exchanges you said that your version of Brahminism is NOT what "regular temple goers" practice in Madurai, Trichy or Chennai.

3. In the given situation of Mr. R and his wife & daughters, I sympathize with the daughters; yes, to me Mr. R comes across as a man of "bloated ego" and he is a "loser" in my eyes.

You, Sarma and others may have sympathy for Mr. R... that's your pov which is fine with me.

4. I never said "ALL Brahmins are with bloated ego" and are therefore "losers"!

You see whatever we write, our pov comes across crystal clear; that's the whole point of blogs and blogposts, I believe.

5. I may have certain "subtle' bias, but I don't have blatant statement of prejudice, believe me!

6. I have this practice of laughing out loud when I write about politics, culture or my pov etc.. that I show by lol -- this you may consider as a style of writing!

7. Someone said that I am "a clone of Nara"! What do you think? I know I like many views of Mr. N and I also vehemently disagree with him on many other things.

Please keep writing... I always read you posts with interest for you have a PhD in Physics!

Cheers.

Regards.

Y

Sri Y -

Thanks for your gentle response!

Actually I don’t have any view on Mr R since I do not know the situation first hand and Smt Renuka has provided a great post on Mr R in my view.

Thanks for acknowledging that you may have a subtle bias (like all humans). What you do about your possible bias about brahminism is up to you.

I learnt in my professional life while attending a week long workshop many years ago on race relations that what is subtle bias to a person may be coming across as blatant to the recipient.
As you astutely observed in another of your post, I was being deliberate in my interpretation and reaction just to make a point.

That post even woke up Sri Nara out of his slumber to provide a reaction. LoL!

Please do not stop LoL ! In reading your posts I know you are a good person with good intent ‘subtle bias aside. That is why I have continued to engage with you.

No one is a clone of anyone - it is inappropriate characterize anyone that way.
Also though I disagree with many of what Sri Nara stands for or his style of arguments I do think he has good intent and do makes excellent points now and then.

Regards

LOL