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Aryan invasion confusion

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tks, you are misstating my/athiest position. Atheism is about not believing in a deity who cares about the human condition, an omniscient, omnipotent entity that can be influenced through prayer. To prove such a deity exists is the responsibility of those who claim such a deity exists.

When it comes to a Iswara as the primordial cause of material universe, it is irrational to assert any definitive position. My own view is, the claim that an intelligent and purpose oriented cause, leads to an infinite regress of who caused this cause, and therefore a logical fallacy.

Many upanishads are of the Q/A form, and that is good. However, the claim that all the As of the Upanishads are inerrant is untenable.

tks, to say I will believe when you prove it, is not a belief system, it is nothing but healthy skepticism.

Sri Nara-

At least there is no concept of conversion in Hinduism unlike Christianity or Islam. Therefore no Hindu is going to come and prove anything to you and you have to wait for a long time :-).

If during an interaction you try to force a point of view that there is no Iswara then that behavior in my mind would be that of a practitioner of an aggressive religion. If you spend enormous time researching religious texts like BG, writings to Sri Vevekananda, prayer practices of theists and objecting to those at available opportunity that is equivalent to practicing a religion of Atheism in my view. It does not matter that the stated position is that you are waiting to be convinced by someone since such a person will never come from a Hindu tradition to win you over.

By the way- I do not believe in Iswara with characteristics you described ! I do not believe in a personal deity that can be influenced by prayers. But I do not consider myself an Atheist either.

Iswara is a concept to be understood by teachings here and now (not after death) and is not a concept to be believed. This does not mean the idea of personal deity is wrong or prayer is silly. It is about going from one level of truth and maturity to another.

Infinite Regression of cause that you mentioned is resolved fully by Advita. To understand this one have to understand the concept of Mithya. There are excellent 'logical' discussions that make a compelling case starting with the five means of knowledge (Pratyaksham, Anumanam, Upamanam, Arthapathi, and Anupalabdhi) and understanding why another Pramana is required to understand Sathyam (reality). My point is there is a vast and profound knowledge that exists for one to undertake study and practices to discover Iswara but one must want to learn this.

Regards
 
Shri tks sir and Shri Nara sir,

I am happy and surprised that one small remark of mine (viz., that Atheism is also a belief.) has brought out such learned and very weighty discussions. This may be useful for the youngsters of today who are generally very well-educated and have wide experience because they are able to travel across continents.

For an ordinary tamil brahmin with very limited means and education, like me, it is the faith, the beliefs, customs, rites and rituals which enable me to face the vicissitudes of life, calmly. Belief in god, in so many gods - to be correct, does not appear to my limited intelligence as something bad; it is like having so many people on whose shoulders I can rest and weep out my agonies. A few tidbits of sanskrit slokas, tamil/malayalam verses etc., complete my dialogue with the gods.

I believe most tamil brahmins will be like this only. Thus this is part of our culture, whether good or despicable. It has not stopped the progress of the world.
 
K, this has been bothering me. It is Mr. R who was dysfunctional in the culture in which he chose to make his living and raise his daughters. The daughters didn't have any option but to grow up in the culture in which their father raised them. So, I think, the family was not dysfunctional, it is Mr.R. who is.

Cheers!

thanks nara.

it takes two to tango, i beleive. we only know mrs R's viewwpoint.

i am just looking at the situation, and detect disfunctionality here. from a viewpoint of non participating in the joys of his daughters' achievements, R appears to have lost out.

can we not look at the mirror, and view it as the rest of the family having 'lost' out the presence of the father.

overall, i think situations like this are sad. i have seen quite a few, and from both sides. in the ultimate there is always a tinge of sadness somewhere. hidden. forgotten maybe. unacknowledged perhaps. but it exists. i think so.

hopefully he has found peace. so too, the mom and the daughters.

for example: padma lakshmi's mom encouraged her modelling career. the father had other views. so they split. arranged marriages all.
 
Shri tks sir and Shri Nara sir,

I am happy and surprised that one small remark of mine (viz., that Atheism is also a belief.) has brought out such learned and very weighty discussions. This may be useful for the youngsters of today who are generally very well-educated and have wide experience because they are able to travel across continents.

For an ordinary tamil brahmin with very limited means and education, like me, it is the faith, the beliefs, customs, rites and rituals which enable me to face the vicissitudes of life, calmly. Belief in god, in so many gods - to be correct, does not appear to my limited intelligence as something bad; it is like having so many people on whose shoulders I can rest and weep out my agonies. A few tidbits of sanskrit slokas, tamil/malayalam verses etc., complete my dialogue with the gods.

I believe most tamil brahmins will be like this only. Thus this is part of our culture, whether good or despicable. It has not stopped the progress of the world.

Sri Sarma - Thank for your comments. Keep making more provocative statements :-)

In my understanding, going to temples, doing the rites and rituals with Shraddha (there is no equivalent translation for this word though they are incorrectly translated as faith & belief), daily prayers and daily meditation etc are some of the the best ways for one to have peace of mind. Having an idea of personal Iswara is great way to deal with life's day to day issues.

We worship the same Iswara in many forms depending on how we are able to relate to this Iswara.

Theologies underlying any rituals and forms of worship (or lack thereof) can either help or hinder. If the theology which is available for inspection for its applicability is flawed then there will be issues and contradictions in a person's life even if they do not know all the meanings.

Since vedas assert universal truths (and this cannot be understood without a lot of effort and most ignorant analysts will dismiss this as a faith based claim) any rituals and practices that are truly based on these truths are effective. If one is able to find time to study and understand we can find that it redefines our concept of Bhakti and provides a rich context when doing any rituals.

While reciting Purushasuktham or hearing learning about a major scientific breakthrough or a theory at whatever level of detail or even saying a simple sloka or a verse like

Om pUrNamadah pUrNamidaM pUrNAt pUrNamudacyate
PUrNasya pUrNamAdAya pUrNamEvAvashiSyate

one is able to better appreciate presence of Iswara when a study of underlying theology (Vedas) is undertaken, in my experience.

If someone translates the above as :

That is whole; this is whole;
From that whole this whole came;
From that whole, this whole removed,
What remains is whole.

There are people that undertake study and then upon reading a straightforward translation think that Upanishads in the words of a westerner "prattlings of an infantile mind."

Is this verse describes something profound and great or is it just "babbling of infantile and immature mind"?

Why is it recited in our rituals? If someone is curious then all these study is useful.

Advita study leads one to become a Bhakta with proper context (which may seem like contradiction for someone with an immature understanding).

My point in the end is that a simple prayer is phenomenally more effective than useless debates without right knowledge of any of these Vedanta topics.

I have respect for your simple approach in keeping up with the traditions.

Regards

PS: I enjoyed participating in the discussions / debates. Have to focus on other aspects of life so my postings may be infrequent
 
Dear tks, Greetings!

You seem more interested in meta-discussions than presenting your case, for or against a thesis. I would like to present my view and refrain from making comments about your knowledge, etc. You are free to ignore my blabbering if you think I lack 'funda-knowledge'.

Please note, it was another meta-comment from you, about Mr. Y being not a Brahmin, that prompted me to enter this discussion. Later you made a statement about the Brahminism BG teaches. This is the point of contention. I am presenting my case without any comment about your funda-knowledge. If you wish, you present your case also in a similar fashion. Let the readers take whatever they want. Don't you think this is fair?

I presented my views of BG and Varna in post #94. Just to summarize:
From Chapter 1, verse 41 - 43 it is crystal clear that Arjuna learned from his clan elders -- therefore must be the traditional knowledge -- that when women lose their chastity, Varna samghraha will result. In verses #32 and #33 of Chapter 9, Lord Sri Krishna assures Arjuna of salvation, noting even those of sinful-birth -- Vaishya, Sudra and women can surrender to him and achieve moksha and therefore, there can be no doubt Brahmanas and Kshatriya (Arjuna) of punya-birth are also assured of it. One is not free to ignore these verses when interpreting verses from Chapter 4 and 18.

If you wish you may rebut my presentation with a cogent argument. If all you have to say is I don't understand, I need to study under proper guru (why do you assume I haven't?), etc., then, we have one side presenting a case and the other side sticking to ad hominems.


...If during an interaction you try to force a point of view that there is no Iswara then that behavior in my mind would be that of a practitioner of an aggressive religion.
Why must all discussions be turned into meta-discussions. If I disagree with your view that does not automatically mean I am forcing my view on you. I am just stating me view, if you wish to discuss with me, do so, if not just ignore me. If you think Atheism is also a religion, let it be. I think Atheism is the natural state of being, we all are born like that, until religion, faith, superstition, etc. are poured into us. This is my view.

Cheers!
 
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"If someone translates the above as :

That is whole; this is whole;
From that whole this whole came;
From that whole, this whole removed,
What remains is whole.

Is this verse describes something profound and great or is it just "babbling of infantile and immature mind"?
"
 
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"If someone translates the above as :

That is whole; this is whole;
From that whole this whole came;
From that whole, this whole removed,
What remains is whole.

Is this verse describes something profound and great or is it just "babbling of infantile and immature mind"?
"

A perfect "Snake Oil" peddled by High Priests of Deceit and Deception! Nothing more, nothing less, IMO

Respected Super moderator and Shri Praveen sahib, owner of this forum,

I do not know if you act only upon receiving pms or will take cognisance of public abuse of our scriptures as a sufficient reason to caution the member who makes remarks like the above. I want either of you to respond, urgently.
 
Hello ALL:

Last night I saw a Tamil movie called "Azhagarsamiin Kuthurai"; it is a simple story showcasing the fraud committed by the High Priests of Kovils in many villages in TN (in 1980s)... my main reason to watch the movie was Illaya Raja who did the music and songs!

You may watch once - not a big masterpiece, even IR disappointed me; but theme was very good, IMO.

My post #106 was written with a "subtle bias" against High Priests, I concede! The writer of the original post asked a question

"Is this verse describes something profound and great or is it just "babbling of infantile and immature mind"?"

Clearly my choice was "just a babbling of infantile and immature mind", which I conveyed with my own words and style!

I don't know why this ruffles feathers in this Open Forum?

Please let me know..

Regards

Y
 
Y,

i am yet to see kuthirai.

there is a great song 'illoray illoray'. good beat.

not everyone is upset. the way i understood it. i have found that after 37 years in canada, sometimes what i write in jest, is understood in vain. i usually let is pass.

:)
 
Dear Shri.Sarma-61,
Please calm down.I do not blame shri.Yamaha for making his comments.After all, he has offered his comments only after reading the
translated version of a beautiful Concept expressed in a language(Sanskrit) which probably he had no occasion to learn.HE is only trying to exhibit
his ignorance of a profound concept by writing in his own style,in a language where he has acquired proficiency.He may not be able to
understand that by such remarks,he is hurting the feelings of a silent majority in this FORUM.
 
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Dear Shri.Sarma-61,
Please calm down.I do not blame shri.Yamaha for making his comments.After all, he has offered his comments only after reading the
translated version of a beautiful Concept expressed in a language(Sanskrit) which probably he had no occasion to learn.HE is only trying to exhibit
his ignorance of a profound concept by writing in his own style,in a language where he has acquired proficiency.He may not be able to
understand that by such remarks,he is hurting the feelings of a silent majority in this FORUM.

Dear Krish Sir:

"He may not be able to
understand that by such remarks,he is hurting the feelings of a silent majority in this FORUM."


I am very touched by your statement... please do me a favor - translate the original Sanskrit verse of

"Om pUrNamadah pUrNamidaM pUrNAt pUrNamudacyate
PUrNasya pUrNamAdAya pUrNamEvAvashiSyate"

in English or Tamil so that I can truly understand the profound concept impregnated inside it...

I am reminded of one famous writing....

I don't know what you know
You don't know what you don't know
You don't know what I know
I don't know what I don't know.... some such thing ... (after Don Rumsfeld, former Defense Sec, USA) lol.

You see, the Great Thirukkural was written about 2100 years ago.... many of its couplets ARE very true today and are mind boggling that Thiruvalluvar could think of those things so long long time ago... However, many other couplets are totally irrelevant and meaningless in this early 21st century... For example, many of his views on women and girls and their rights etc..

Therefore, I am here to concede that there may be many passages in the Sanskrit Scriptures which are thought provoking and very instructive to human living... and there may be hundred other passages without any relevance to the contemporary life today.

I refuse to accept that ALL that's written in Sanskrit (a language like Latin, which is dead and gone) is holy and as such it demands everyone's admiration, obedience and respect.

That's my pov.

Regards

Y

ps. Please try to see that movie "Azhagarsamiin Kuthirai" I mentioned above. Thanks.
 
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"If someone translates the above as :

That is whole; this is whole;
From that whole this whole came;
From that whole, this whole removed,
What remains is whole.

Is this verse describes something profound and great or is it just "babbling of infantile and immature mind"?
"

A perfect "Snake Oil" peddled by High Priests of Deceit and Deception! Nothing more, nothing less, IMO

Dear Yamaka,

Just ask yourself...Is your comment fair?
You seem to be a biased..yesterday you said Jesus and Mohamed existed but Rama,Krishna etc you have no proof.
Actually what is your agenda?

See I am not defending Hinduism here cos technically Hinduism stands on its own and I am just nothing in front of It.

But just to add some spice and flavor why dont you also comment on another religion's mantra like this.
I invite you..since you said you dont believe in any organized religion..so kindly start off with some other religions prayer.

I happen to read sometime back where some members comment on christianity was prompted deleted cos if was offending so i wonder how this was allowed.

See most people dare comment on Hinduism as majority will be silent..but never underestimate silence..its either they will rise later or may be think "why cast pearls in front of swine"
 
....it takes two to tango, i beleive. we only know mrs R's viewwpoint.
K, I wonder what Mrs. R, or the daughters could have done that was dysfunctional enough for Mr. R to walk out. IMO, there are only two scenarios that would make the conduct of the women of the family to be equally dysfunctional as Mr. R. that could be characterized as it takes two to tango. They are, (i) Mr. R did not walk out at all, the three women connived to throw Mr. R out, or (ii) the three women were carrying on a depraved life style that Mr. R just could not tolerate. I think these two can be no more than just possibilities, and extremely unlikely with such infinitesimally small probability as to be indistinguishable from zero.

What other scenarios could you envision that may rise to the level of Mr. R's dysfunctional conduct, as reported, that could make the entire family dysfunctional, not just Mr.R?

Cheers!
 
Dear Yamaka,

Just ask yourself...Is your comment fair?
You seem to be a biased..yesterday you said Jesus and Mohamed existed but Rama,Krishna etc you have no proof.
Actually what is your agenda?

See I am not defending Hinduism here cos technically Hinduism stands on its own and I am just nothing in front of It.

But just to add some spice and flavor why dont you also comment on another religion's mantra like this.
I invite you..since you said you dont believe in any organized religion..so kindly start off with some other religions prayer.

I happen to read sometime back where some members comment on christianity was prompted deleted cos if was offending so i wonder how this was allowed.

See most people dare comment on Hinduism as majority will be silent..but never underestimate silence..its either they will rise later or may be think "why cast pearls in front of swine"

Hello Renukka:

I see a whiff or a splash of anger all around...lol I thought spiritually immersed individuals seldom radiate anger!! Lol

Can you please cool down a bit, and translate that original into a good Tamil or English verse so that I can understand and appreciate its content (Refer my post #111)?

Then, we shall talk about other items in your agenda!

Take care.

Y
 
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dear nara,

re your post #113, let me begin with the old adage, வீட்டுக்கு வீடு வாசைப்படி.

after all, what happens within the 4 walls of a home, only the people living there know. we have the wife's version. we do not know the husband's.

next, this is happening in the usa. i am not so sure, that rigid orthodox folks, of the type described by mrs R come and settle in the usa. or if they do, they become real misfits.

that there are honour killings happening in vancouver and london, is a testimony to the fact that we south asians, bring our baggage along with us.

in this case, the perpetrator is a brahmin, which probably would discount honour killing, but would substitute it with as much a deadly type of cruelty - ie that of the mental one. one that would have been unbearable enough for the mother/daughters to leave the husband, and possibly face ostracism at home.

that could have happened.

the husband could have turned religious. i have had friends here in toronto - easy going booze drinking guys, overnight into veda study classes and such and even naming their later arrived children with historic vedic names (the earlier borns have 'modern' nomenclature).

having said all this, i still think, that it takes two hands to clap. any marriage or household for that matter, is one of adjustments. the father might have had problems with the social trends of the girls. 'dating' as practised in north america, is something, that i am yet to find a tambram father accept it, to the full hilt.

but, i do not think, that the father, would prevent his daughters, from pursuing higher studies. i do not think the father would withhold funds or encouragement for so high an achieving daughters.

breakups happen. with indians, as a rule, more bitter than the whites that i know. as a culture, we do not know or accept divorce, as another natural outcome of a marriage - an unfortunate outcome, but there comes a point in a marriage, when short of committing hara kiri, separation or living apart or divorce appears to be the only alternative.

how the spouses view each other post divorce, is a reflection of one's experience, and to an extent, charity.

mrs R was after all talking to a stranger. i know women, who are divorced, and so bitter is their feeling to the ex, that even after 20+ years, even to the stranger they meet at the bus stand, the first words would be abusive to the ex. except in some cases, i do also happen to know the ex's. these are no saints. but neither were the women.

mrs R could have been charitable at the least towards her ex, and not bad mouth him, in front a complete stranger. instead she spewed enough venom, for Y to feel sufficiently impacted to report here. personally, i think, it speaks more about the woman, than the absent father. something about cultured and sophisticated. such a woman in my concept, would not wash such dirty linen in public. especially on that occassion, and that too, to a stranger. i know a few of those too. here. in toronto.

it takes two to tango. or not.

that is all my point.

from a viewpoint of our current discussion, i think, it is irrelevant as to who is at fault in the R-mrs R saga. atleast to me. it simply does not matter.

as you would say, cheers!!!
 
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Dear Shri.Yamaka,
I may not like to react to your comments.I consider myself ignorant on Scriptures,or Thirukkural.But,please try to understand that the concept contained in that Sanskrit verse has been in existence for thousands of years,admired by millions of people all these years,will
continue for ever to be admired and appreciated in future for thousands of years in the future when You and I may not be living in this world in our present form as the Creator has already determined our expiry date which may be a few more years in 21st century.
PS:-I know a little bit of knowledge in Sanskrit language and so can follow what is written in the
Verse to understand the meaning it conveys,but not a scholar to make you understand and appreciate the concept.
Again you are exhibiting your bias towards Sanskrit by declaring that Sanskrit is a dead language.There is a thread on this subject in this forum where some members mentioned in one or two villages in Karnataka and Madhya PradeshPeople are speaking in Sanskrit.Please open and see for yourself in YOU TUBE how young INDIAN boys living in the country You are presently living(USA)are speaking in Sanskrit.
In official TV channels Sanskrit is used in their News Bulletins.Government of India is setting apart some funds for the development and study of Sanskrit.There are a number of Sanskrit
Scholars still living in India.
In some other thread I have posted information how Sanskrit is taught in CHINA from 1960.
 
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"If someone translates the above as :

That is whole; this is whole;
From that whole this whole came;
From that whole, this whole removed,
What remains is whole.

Is this verse describes something profound and great or is it just "babbling of infantile and immature mind"?
"

A perfect "Snake Oil" peddled by High Priests of Deceit and Deception! Nothing more, nothing less, IMO

Dear Sri.Yamaka Sir, Greetings.

I personally find the above passage fascinating. Mind you, I Don't know what was said before that passage nor what was said hence. This passage may not have a cut and dried meaning as such. It may vary for different individuals depending upon their knowledge and exposure. I like to attempt to explain my understanding from different examples. Mind you, I learned none of the scriptures; my knowledge in Sanskrit is nil.

When I saw this phrase, I reduced the 'whole' thing down to a square meal. (I seem to think only about eating all the time! Even Brahman is identified by me in a square meal!). Imagine a quantity of 'plenty meal', say in a buffet or large hotel in the lunch hour situation....

That is the whole ( 'that' is the meal kept on the buffet counter); this is the whole ( 'this' is the plate of meal in my hand, which is the whole meal one could normally eat).

From that whole (from the buffet counter) this whole (a whole plate of meal) came.

From the buffet counter this plate of meal is removed.

What remains at the buffet counter is (still) the whole (many more plates can be filled; the buffet counter can be filled too).

Now that I had a meal, I shall think more about the same passage.....

The love and compassion shown by nature towards all forms of life is 'that whole'; the love and compassion shown by 'self' is 'this' whole.

'Self' reciprocates the love and compassion received from the nature.

If the 'self' takes ownership of the love and compassion shown by it as seperate from the love and compassion shown by the nature,

still the love and compassion shown by the nature is the whole.

(So, it is not a bad idea to be part of the nature and show love and compassion to all).

The same passage can be applied to any 'ishta devatha'; can be applied to 'brahman'.. can be applied to anything and everything.

Personally I don't see any sale of snake oil here. But, that's me, personally. When the passage is open for interpretations, we can interpret them on our own; we don't need any high priest for that.

Cheers!
 
Hello Renukka:

I see a whiff or a splash of anger all around...lol I thought spiritually immersed individuals seldom radiate anger!! Lol

Can you please cool down a bit, and translate that original into a good Tamil or English verse so that I can understand and appreciate its content (Refer my post #111)?

Then, we shall talk about other items in your agenda!

Take care.

Y

Dear Yamaka LOLa,

I am not angry..why should I be but you are bordering on ridicule now.
You know I dont need to translate for you..you guys are Google Savvy so Google search dear LOLa Ji.

See you still havent said a word about other religions!!!! LOL!!!

P.S just to add Sanskrit is very much alive in all our names almost 99% of us walk around with Sanskrit names but Yamaka ..i dont know about you cos I dont know your religion at birth.So I have no idea if your real name is Sanskrit in origin.
 
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Hello Renukka:

I see a whiff or a splash of anger all around...lol I thought spiritually immersed individuals seldom radiate anger!! Lol

Can you please cool down a bit, and translate that original into a good Tamil or English verse so that I can understand and appreciate its content (Refer my post #111)?

Then, we shall talk about other items in your agenda!

Take care.

Y

Dear Sri.Yamaka Sir, Greetings.

Personally I think, Sowbagyavathy Renuka is very reasonable. When you have no issues in 'believing' Jesus and Mohammad, why should you ridicule 'beliefs' if it comes to Hinduism? If I believe 'Bunny' created the whole universe ad pray to Bunny everyday, then that is my right. Only when I try to impose my belief on you, any objection from you may be justified.

Sowbagyavathy Renuka is not imposing her belief on you. In my opinion, she does not even have an obligation to justify her personal belief. To say that she displays anger would put her on the backfoot. I don't think it is nice to say that to that lady, please. She did not display anger at all even a whiff or splash. Thanks.

Cheers!
 
Dear Shri.Yamaka,
I may not like to react to your comments.I consider myself ignorant on Scriptures,or Thirukkural.But,please try to understand that the concept contained in that Sanskrit verse has been in existence for thousands of years,admired by millions of people all these years,will
continue for ever to be admired and appreciated in future for thousands of years in the future when You and I may not be living in this world in our present form as the Creator has already determined our expiry date which may be a few more years in 21st century.
PS:-I know a little bit of knowledge in Sanskrit language and so can follow what is written in the
Verse to understand the meaning it conveys,but not a scholar to make you understand and appreciate the concept.
Again you are exhibiting your bias towards Sanskrit by declaring that Sanskrit is a dead language.There is a thread on this subject in this forum where some members mentioned in one or two villages in Karnataka and Madhya PradeshPeople are speaking in Sanskrit.Please open and see for yourself in YOU TUBE how young INDIAN boys living in the country You are presently living(USA)are speaking in Sanskrit.
In official TV channels Sanskrit is used in their News Bulletins.Government of India is setting apart some funds for the development and study of Sanskrit.There are a number of Sanskrit
Scholars still living in India.
In some other thread I have posted information how Sanskrit is taught in CHINA from 1960.

Dear Krishnamurthy Ji,

Please dont consider yourself ignorant.You are one of the finest gentlemen here with prefect understanding of life and God and thats what true knowledge is all about.

Please dont measure yourself in the worldly scale.

A Vidwan may have read books but he may not have gained knowledge or wisdom.
 
Dear Sri.Yamaka Sir, Greetings.

Personally I think, Sowbagyavathy Renuka is very reasonable. When you have no issues in 'believing' Jesus and Mohammad, why should you ridicule 'beliefs' if it comes to Hinduism? If I believe 'Bunny' created the whole universe ad pray to Bunny everyday, then that is my right. Only when I try to impose my belief on you, any objection from you may be justified.

Sowbagyavathy Renuka is not imposing her belief on you. In my opinion, she does not even have an obligation to justify her personal belief. To say that she displays anger would put her on the backfoot. I don't think it is nice to say that to that lady, please. She did not display anger at all even a whiff or splash. Thanks.

Cheers!

Dear Raghy:

I like YOUR interpretation of the passage with love and compassion - however, I don't see such words in the main text of the translated passage! That's the real bone of contention here, I suppose... again, the interpretation changes from people to people, place to place and time to time...Is it not?

To your information, I just don't believe any of the Organized Religions as prescribed by the Holy Books like Bible, Koran, Vedas or Torah.

What I told Renukka was, I believe that Prophets Muhammed and Jesus did live in this planet with flesh and blood, while I don't know about Lord Rama, Lord Shiva or Lord Brahma, and that I am searching for some historical evidence. I ask for help, historically speaking!

I also said that Muhammed and Jesus DID not know when they were alive that Organized Religions of Islam and Christianity, respectively would be started under their name by their followers! As I recall, it took decades after their death for these religions to spring up to dominate the masses! lol

I am a history freak, so I want to construct stories of human evolution and civilization with reference to origins of Organized Religions..

To my reading of her posts above, I felt some "anger" or "irritation"... If she says that's not true, then I believe her!

Nice knowing you.

Regards

Y

P.s I will engage about other Religions and Practices with my fun filled style when there is a context provided... May be, Renuka can start a thread on Islam or Christianity and talk about it... I will jump in...

I am an Equal Opportunity person as far as Organized Religions are concerned, believe me!

Perhaps, that particular Sanskrit verse needs to be read with the context given before and after the verse in the page, which may make lot more sense than just reading a few lines in isolation... just a thought! Maybe, you know the matter discussed in the entire page!
 
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Dear Shri.Yamaka,
I may not like to react to your comments.I consider myself ignorant on Scriptures,or Thirukkural.But,please try to understand that the concept contained in that Sanskrit verse has been in existence for thousands of years,admired by millions of people all these years,will
continue for ever to be admired and appreciated in future for thousands of years in the future when You and I may not be living in this world in our present form as the Creator has already determined our expiry date which may be a few more years in 21st century.
PS:-I know a little bit of knowledge in Sanskrit language and so can follow what is written in the
Verse to understand the meaning it conveys,but not a scholar to make you understand and appreciate the concept.
Again you are exhibiting your bias towards Sanskrit by declaring that Sanskrit is a dead language.There is a thread on this subject in this forum where some members mentioned in one or two villages in Karnataka and Madhya PradeshPeople are speaking in Sanskrit.Please open and see for yourself in YOU TUBE how young INDIAN boys living in the country You are presently living(USA)are speaking in Sanskrit.
In official TV channels Sanskrit is used in their News Bulletins.Government of India is setting apart some funds for the development and study of Sanskrit.There are a number of Sanskrit
Scholars still living in India.
In some other thread I have posted information how Sanskrit is taught in CHINA from 1960.

Dear Krish Sir:

On Sanskrit, here is my understanding -

1. I went to a Brahmin college in Madurai in the year 1967-71. I expected that most of my friends will take Sanskrit as the Second language... to my surprise, there were only about 5 students out of 200 went to it and others were in Tamil class. When I asked them why so, the reply was "What do you do with Sanskrit, anyway?" "Only those families interested in priesthood push their kids to Sans... not US"

2. I read a survey which showed that very small 1-5 % of Brahmins really KNOW to read and write in Sanskrit and know the Vedic Scriptures RIGHT... but lot more read the Hindi, Tamil or English translation of the Vedas, and the interpretations vary a whole lot depending on the political, social and religious background of the person who is interpreting it!

That's the problem, I suppose..

Thank you.

Regards

Y
 
Dear all,

I also happened to see a Tamil movie yesterday some 80's movie where there was this so called comedy scene where the comedian there kicks a Brahmin priest who was praying to God at the river side to cure his backpain and after the kick his back pain goes away and the priest then comes with a group of brahmin priests and reciting
Om Sahana Vavatu Sahanau Bhunaktu mantra..garlands the comedian and tells him that you are the new Avatara Purusha who cured my back and now please kick this other brahmin here too with a stiff back..

You know my husband and I thought it was a joke which was in bad taste and very very disrespectful to a Priest.I am not being pro Brahmin here but a priest is a religous leader and he needs to be potrayed with some respect.

Have any one seen in any tamil movie where a Christian or Muslim religous leader treated like this?

A Christian father will be portrayed as all forgiving and all loving and even if he is killed by some vilians he will be uttering these dying words..."Oh Jesus..Forgive this child" and he will get enough time to make some holy gestures and die.

A Muslim leader will be portrayed as some Hindi speaking South Indian who is also very loving and caring and will censure anyone being bad as Shyaitan Ki Bacche and instilling justice to all.

All double standards the film industry has..why no one dare make a movie on the alleged sexual abuse in the Churches?
 
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There is one Tamil film actor a self proclaimed Atheist who eats,drinks and breathes EVR and openly advocates Atheism even in interviews, shows and movies.

But when his son got married..the marriage ceremony was a full Hindu ceremony much to my suprise.
What happened to all that Atheism then?

I guess he couldnt imagine his son's life not being represented by a Thali.

So basically he practised double standards and when faced with reality he was trembling at a Richter of 8 somewhere in his netherlands.
 
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There is one Tamil film actor a self proclaimed Atheist who eats,drinks and breathes EVR and openly advocates Atheism even in interviews, shows and movies.

But when his son got married..the marriage ceremony was a full Hindu ceremony much to my suprise.
What happened to all that Atheism then?

I guess he couldnt imagine his son's life not being represented by a Thali.

So basically he practised double standards and when faced with reality he was trembling at a Richter of 8 somewhere in his netherlands.

Hi Renuka:

Double standard, double talk (you say one thing, but think/do differently), hypocrisy, FEARFUL of authority or God are all quite prevalent among people.

However, did you think of the possibility that son & his future wife asked for a Thali and traditional Hindu ceremony?

Maybe, the original idea of a ceremonial marriage was not from this self proclaimed Atheist! Or maybe, it came from his wife!

I know Kamal Haasan is close to an Atheist! But, what kind of marriage will he have for his daughters? Any guess?

Be FEARLESS, and that would solve most of the problems! lol
 
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