Astrology pandits here?

[KRS]

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Dear Sri Hariharan,

You make a very valid point. However, in my humble opinion it misses the relationship between Dharma and Karma.

We are not designed to be bad. People who do 'adharmic' actions do so because of ignorance or 'avidya'. Ravana was a prime example. While he was a Brahmin king, doing all sorts of Shiva puja, he commits an unspeakable adharmic act, which got his whole family destroyed.

An adharmic act has vast reverberations, beyond the person committing it - because you have 'victims'. I am not a psychologist. But when a person, does an adharmic act, they know that a 'seer' within (more than conscience) is watching. Usually, these people, in my experience will be the most 'god fearing'. Such an internal moral justice will reflect on their actions on a continuous basis until they arrive at a spiritual plane to completely change. There have been many instances of this in our literature. Swamigal Manicka Vachagar is a prime example.

We do not have the concept of 'sin' in our religion. Sin is somehow external- if one repents enough sin is washed away. Our religion's concept is different. Any dharmic / adharmic action is internal and the silent witness in a person observes both. Your mind which has free will knows this and hence the Karma Phala.

What you sow you reap. As long as one understands this, then what is the problem? I hope I have tried to explain adequately.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[bagya]

I agree with you

it was not just a joke. it has deeper meaning.

It means don't blame your horoscope for everything. Dont justify your actions blaming it on horoscopes. So just because some one has some planet somewhere it does not mean he can justify his actions based on that.

Astrology may be a good science but very rarely are there anyone who can forecast correctly. kalidasa says that even brahma cant predict a person's future so what about mere mortals attempting predictions.
Besides, nothing is fixed. It is for each individual to shape her/his destiny and not blame it on horoscopes.

That is what I meant with that "joke". one has to be smart enough to understand the meaning behind that.

Cheers
Gautham
:ranger:

Sir, I have similar opinion too. My mind always rules my heart and mostly I take a good decision on any matter and if it goes wrong I definitely blame on myself and not on my fate.....and I do believe that"theedhum nandrum piran thara vaara".
This is just my opinion...sorry if I have offended anyone.

Nandriyudan
Bagya.

 

[KRS]

Dear Srimathi Bagya Ji,

Our Rishis gave us this discipline out of love and compassion towards the folks amongst us who have to undergo hardships in their lives because of their accumulated bad karmas. If your mind is strong and detached to any outcome in your life, you do not need the help of Astrology.

But not everyone is as strong as you are.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[Chintana]

Unethicality and happiness

Sri KRS and Hari,

I think Hari's question had more to do with what to do when we see nothing happen to bad people because there is no motivation to be good.

Let me try my two cents.

EVERYBODY pays the price for their negative karma. We may not know it, that's all. We don't know what is happening in peoples' lives, do we?

An astrologer once told me that the manner in which people die and what happens during their last rites/the time between they are dead and cremated, says something about how that person has lived.

I have no way of verfiying this but let us look at what is happening in Karunanidhi's family. It was a celebration of 50 years of his political career - a testimony to the way he defeated all of his political rivals and managed to hold on to power. Just when he thought it was all over - look at the mushrooming dynasty quarrel. If I am 84 and if I have worked hard to position myself in a good place I'd want the transition of responsibilities to be smooth. I personally think that internal tough times for Karunanidhi just got intensified. The man who made a living out of propagating hatred I think is going to live to witness the hatred played out among his own kith and kin. I think that is going to be hard for him. He is not exactly a young man and toward old age everyone wants to be loved. I am not sure that that would happen for him. Although he is not expecting it I think old age makes emotional battles very hard in a way that is different when one is young. I think we are living in interesting times.

Is this bad turn of events enough for Karunanidhi? I am of the opinion that this is the beginning of some kind of an end. I may be wrong. Point is, we really don't know what is happening in people's lives unless the media shines the spotlight on it.

Media, or no media - God does what has to be done. No questions about that.

That is part one.

The second, part is, when somebody is showing a bad attitude, what are we doing about it? That I think is a huge, huge part.

To me the first step is to never allow one's mind to accept that unethicality can live forever.

The second step is to take concrete actions. Try to change the environment in some way - form interest groups, get help, form non-profit organizations - or do something that is in keeping with one's nature and conscience and life circumstances. But DO something. Even if it means trying to get out of your environment. Every bit counts. THAT is a very important belief to have. The cosmos needs to know that you did your part in the kurukshetra.

To change oneself, find like minded people or register protest in some way - find effective means to do that - that will form your karma.

I believe TN especially is in this kind of a shape because of some kind of bad collective karma we have done as a people.

The way to deal with that is to patiently respond to every negative stimulus positively - affirming God alll along the way.

It cannot be done alone must be done as a collectivity. But that's only my opinion.

My specific response to your question - unethical people do NOT go unpunished; you may not see it that's all.

Secondly, if you are getting that stimulus it means life is asking you to do something about it. That is your karma/duty. You might want to think about picking it up.

Also, not every social change or social service has to be done in Gandhian terms - i.e., live poorly, renounce everything, go to jail etc. I think social changes can be done very creatively using non-profit organizations. I think in today's day and age unless one figures out how to make a living making social change, nobody is going to get serious about it.

Hope this helps.

 

[maruti]

This thread has digressed from the original subject matter.

Anyway, I am gonna propose this Friday. I am so scared, almost terrified. I can't take rejection. Wish me luck.

And KRS ji, please check your pm, I've given some birth details. Please see if my chances are good. If it isn't too much trouble, kindly pm me. But don't post anything here.

 

[Chintana]

All the best, Maruti. Good luck!

This thread has digressed from the original subject matter.

Anyway, I am gonna propose this Friday. I am so scared, almost terrified. I can't take rejection. Wish me luck.

And KRS ji, please check your pm, I've given some birth details. Please see if my chances are good. If it isn't too much trouble, kindly pm me. But don't post anything here.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Hariharan and Sowbhagyavathi Chintana Ji,

Again Sowbhagyavathi Chintana Ji has explained something much better than I did. Thank you.

Bhagawan Ramana Maharishi always replied whenever His followers asked this question: What to do about all the injustice one sees around oneself?, with this refrain (I am paraphrasing):

"Just focus on yourself first and try to answer the question 'who am I?', and the world will take care of itself."

A financially poor man who is content with his life and has a smile on his face because of his family's and friends' true affection is thousand times nearer to God than a millionaire afflicted with diseases and scheming family, clinging to his ego and who mortgages his life at the feet of Faustus.

This is what I have learned from my religion.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[bagya]

No doubt about that

Dear Srimathi Bagya Ji,

Our Rishis gave us this discipline out of love and compassion towards the folks amongst us who have to undergo hardships in their lives because of their accumulated bad karmas. If your mind is strong and detached to any outcome in your life, you do not need the help of Astrology.

But not everyone is as strong as you are.

Pranams,
KRS

Dear Sri KRS ji
I agree what you say. But we are living in a competitive soceity where you have to be alert and grab your chance to come up in life. So sometimes we have to overlook rahukalam/yamagandam etc to keep going towards the goal. So I rather go the practical way than considering these. If my faith in God is true HE will look after me.
This is just my opinion...sorry if I have offended anyone.
Nandriyudan
Bagya.

 

[KRS]

Dear Srimathi Bagya Ji,

We both agree.

My only point is that our religion caters to each and everyone of us, regardless of our mental approach.

If you believe that you do not have to worry about Rahu kalalms etc., and start any endeavor without any concern to propitious times, then astrology does not concern you - He will take care.

But if you believe otherwise (and there a lots of folks with such beliefs), then you have to observe the Rahu Kalam etc. Our Panchangam allows for that.

This type of alowing different stratifications based on one's mental / spiritual capabilities is very unique to our religion.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[fire]

I guess they are valid doubts!!!

Its a logical doubt again.Can you explain if the so called planet in Astro represents the physical planets in our solar system? If not what they represent( please provide the basics)?what is the fundamental theory behind it? I feel anything can have a probability value...How exactly horoscope is calculated based on birth time ? How do you say it affects now ,based on calculations ...Dont we hav a different guys having similar orientations with absolutely different life prospects?? If I say I will have an increment in 2 years it has the probability(without any horoscope.)...It might happen.might not be.In case of politics u can predict a lot better (against their poll promises).

I dont say some ancestors tried to cheat us...That might be the reason they found .....Which may be wrong.Even bible said world was flat.When its disproved we are no longer arguing world is flat.When there is a clash between science and religion if science produces a better answer , we have to accept that....

People can follow it as they have faith.May be they have the faith that since their time is good, they can boldly step into an act.'This astrologer has predicted this marriage wil last long;we dont need to worry'.Again in science if we post something we need to prove it.

Assume a believer goes to an astrologer before starting a big venture and business its a big opportunity.If the astrologer(s) gives a positive response no problem.If he gives a negative response we will eager to know the reasons. If it happens for quite some time naturally he will start analysing the basics.

I guess no one will find God ..(the creator of the universe).But its a belief.We cannot explain it scientifically.

I think if we cannot answer a question today that we should try to find the reasons if its true or false or a thing cannot be proved or disproved.I am not sure of "we are part of closed system concept"....Plz explain.

Karma , if u mean u wil face the consequences of your actions strictly, within our life period its disproved.We cannot say anything about our previous birth or the future(after death).Again the philosophies themselves i guess , were born to explain because of rational questions and set a good rule of law.

Wherever we cannot apply a logic,or wherever its not harm to have a faith we can have faith on those matters. Otherwise its better to know the reasons.The entire universe is infront of you for your study.

Whatever I learn is, its our duty to uphold the Dharma, meaning the justice in the world.I guess thats the underlying point of the Hindu philosophy.But you can have your own views.

I guess the days ahead, we should be explaining more and more things scientifically.Thats the need of the hour.

Thanks,
Fire

Dear fire Ji,

Non one here claims that Astrology is 'science' as it is applied by the modern definition of science. It is at best an empirical discipline that is based on obervation, experience and some fundamental axioms spelled out by some of our Rishis.

Science can never find who the 'God' is. To start with, Science is applied to closed systems and one has to be outside such a system to understand all it's properties. Our observations and inferences can carry us only so far, because we are also part of the system. This is a well known scientific fundamental.

Your statement about Karma theory is baffling. Where 'in practical world it is disproved again and again?'. 'Non proof' does not equate to 'dis proof'. Can you tell me how it is 'dispoved again and again?'

Faith is an integral part of any religion. Logic and reasoning alone can not allow one to fathom the ultimate truth. This is the foundation on which our religion is built and if you look all around one will see the proof of it by the mere existence of God like avatars in our midst.

One is not a Hindu if one does not subscribe to the fact that Truth was revealed to our illustrious forefathers through the Srutis.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri fire Ji,

I have a strong academic background in Physics. I will never argue against the importance of Science.

But Science is not religion and can not be. Only materialism will view Science as Religion. Science applies to the Physical world, where as Religion applies to the 'unmanifested' world. The tools of Science cater to your mind and physical senses. The tools of Religion try to teach you how to reach your Atman and develop spiritual senses.

Before you argue about Karma theory, Astrology etc., if you call yourself a 'Hindu', please at least read our scriptures (may be Bhagavad Gita?). If you do not believe in what the scriptures say, then I would say you can not call yourself a Hindu (even a brief period of Materialists dominating the Indian religious scene in 10 AD or so, have them believing in what our scriptures say).

To know more about Vedic Astrology, please read 'My experiences with Astrology' by B.V. Raman, a noted vedic astrologer of our times.

These books will answer your questions much better than I can.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri fire Ji,

I reread my comments above. Lest you should feel that I am saying you are not a Hindu, let me add this clarification.

Hinduism as defined by our scriptures have certain fundamental concepts. These concepts are believed to be God given and were revealed to some of our most saintly forefathers, which are recorded in the four Vedas.

Subsequently these very same concepts were amplified in the Upanishads by the most brilliant of our Rishis through mystical revelations.

These basic concepts form the foundation of our beliefs. If one argues about the validity of these concepts based on modern day science, then one is arguing about two totally different and non related subjects.

What are these basic Hindu concepts, which from the inception of our religion till today are accepted as Truths?

1. God spirit is everywhere and a person's Atma (or roughly soul) is but a spark from the fire we call God.
2. A person's goal in life is to attain Moksha, (the spark unites with the fire)over anything else.
3. While not forgetting to do one's duty on this earth per one's role on this earth, if one goes about worshipping (several kinds of worship) the all pervading spirit we call God, then one is doing one's Dharma.
4. A person who lives by this code will not have re-birth, as he/she will attain Moksha (recombines with the all pervading spirit). For actions that are not Dharmic, there is a cause and effect that is called Karma. As long as one has accumulated Karma that has been accrued from all of one's previous births, one can not escape re-incarnation. This is the theory of Karma and this has been held up as the Truth through millenia.

The above concepts more than anything else form the bed rock of our religion. If one does not believe any of the above concepts, then in essence one does not believe in the fundamentals of Hinduism.

Can one believe in God but not in the concepts of Karma and Reincarnation and still be a Hindu? My humble personal opinion is that, yes, my religion even allows for that. But then it is like believing only a part of a system just because one's mind can only accept one out of three axioms out of faith! If you say that no, I do not believe in any of the axioms, then that will make you an atheist, not a hindu.

If one is an atheist, then one doesn't believe in any religion. In that case reading any sort of religious books will not convince one.

This is what I meant.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[hariharan1972]

Some questions

I have a strong academic background in Physics. I will never argue against the importance of Science.

KRS Sir,

Given your background in Science, may i ask few questions from you :

a) Do you think Science & Religion are at logger heads ?

b) Are they complementary by any chance ?

c) Is religion required only because we don't know everything ?

d) As human beings make their relentless march in the pursuit of unknown, if & only if, some day, man comes to know of all that there is to know, should he retain his faith in religion ?

e) Personally, have you ever faced a conflict between your belief & intellect ?

f) In the West, to the extent i know, the Church has an undue influence on Science, isn't it ? How come the West has been able to retain a high level of scientific temper ?

g) How do you feel when you see conflicting information in religious scriptures ? I believe the Holy Quran says somewhere that Earth is at the Center of the Solar system.....how do you feel / react about such issues ?

h) India has been in the forefront of scientific knowledge in the ancient past. Where / Why do you think we missed / messed it ?

i) Lastly how do you explain / reconcile your belief in Astrology & your science background ? Don't you find it hard to wear 2 hats ? (Edward De Bono also didn't come to your rescue till very recently !)

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Hariharan,
My answers are in blue.

KRS Sir,

Given your background in Science, may i ask few questions from you :

a) Do you think Science & Religion are at logger heads ?

If they are, it is because, a)Some ultra religious folks do not believe in science and b)Some ultra scientific folks think that Science is the only vehicle towards the betterment of human kind and religion is bad because it creates conflicts.

I think that both serve mankind, albeit in two different and distinct areas, I have indicated in my last posting above.

b) Are they complementary by any chance ?

Science allows one to live a better physical life and understand how the physical cosmos works. Religion also talks about the physics of living - but the main emphasis of religion is for us to understand, what I call the spiritual cosmos.

c) Is religion required only because we don't know everything ?

As human beings we can never 'know' everything. This is because, as I have said before, we are part of a closed system we are examining. We can never know what is outside of our Universe. We are also limited by our mind and senses.

d) As human beings make their relentless march in the pursuit of unknown, if & only if, some day, man comes to know of all that there is to know, should he retain his faith in religion ?

Again, if man will know everything, he will become God. No need for any religion then. By the way, in my belief, this can happen only through religion and not by science which is limited.

e) Personally, have you ever faced a conflict between your belief & intellect ?

When I was in my formative years, yes. But then events that happened in my life (like yours of getting in to college), that I could not explain by the theory of randomness. My belief is that our intellects should be subordinate to the glories of the One who has made all this.

f) In the West, to the extent i know, the Church has an undue influence on Science, isn't it ? How come the West has been able to retain a high level of scientific temper ?
Science was a beneficiary of the Rennaisance in the west. Church did not always favour science. After trhe Rennaisance, science was bankrolled with monies from foreign conquests and also with the internal wealth building in the west. Those in power understood the payback with investments in Science and they were not disappointed. All the modern inventions are the direct result of this.

g) How do you feel when you see conflicting information in religious scriptures ? I believe the Holy Quran says somewhere that Earth is at the Center of the Solar system.....how do you feel / react about such issues ?
I think the early descriptions of the world we have in our religion are remarkable. Astronomy in ancient India was much advanced. I think the descriptions of world as flat and as the center of the solar system, in my opinion did not come from the equivalent of our Seers in those religions, but rather from people who were then day 'scientists'. Our religion also has plenty of such examples.

h) India has been in the forefront of scientific knowledge in the ancient past. Where / Why do you think we missed / messed it ?
It takes investment and sponsorship. I think along the way, because of the Varna system, we forgot to lobby for Science. Naturally Brahmins should have advanced it - but they chose instead to focus on developing the Smrithis and Philosophy. I also think, as people we forgot to properly pay attention to Artha, Kama and Dharma principles of life on earth to the preference of Moksha. This imbalance must be and will be corrected.


i) Lastly how do you explain / reconcile your belief in Astrology & your science background ? Don't you find it hard to wear 2 hats ? (Edward De Bono also didn't come to your rescue till very recently !)
I do not have any problem viewing two hats. When I think about my physical life I rely on modern Science. When I practice my spiritual life, I rely on the magic we call religion. And astrology to me is part of that realm. I do not confuse Astrology with Science. After all life is all magic, but even 'Maya' has to be properly lived in an orderly way! (Sorry, I have not much read Dr. Edward De Bono's works).

Pranams,
KRS

 

[hariharan1972]

Thanks

KRS Sir,

We are blessed to have you in the forum. Your responses are so educating. Thanks.

Even i don't know anything about De Bono except that he trains thinking with "multiple hats". That was the context i mentioned Dr Bono.

 

[hariharan1972]

Interesting read

An interesting interview with Dr J V Narlikar published in Reader's Digest.

http://www.rd-india.com/newsite/other/facetoface.asp

Couple of interesting points to ponder :

-- Dr JVN is very fond of Bhagwad Gita & named his daughter Geeta too.

-- His views on religion are : " I feel that religion can give you a code of conduct in which you find happiness in what you are doing, so that whatever you do is helpful or at least not damaging to your fellow human beings. "

-- In the same breath he admits he is agnostic

KRS Sir : Is this Explainable ?

-- More interesting is his response to a Q on his views about scientists believing in astrology. He says : " I find that very disconcerting. It means that they are scientists only in terms of knowledge, not in terms of feeling. They are scientists at a superficial level, not deep down."

KRS Sir : your views ?

Most interesting i found was his response to a question on how "we" make tall claims about vedas containing scientific information that predate the Greeks.

He says : “Yes. This may be a reaction to having been subjected to foreign domination for many years. We take a passage from the Vedas—and it is very hard to really interpret the Vedas because the Sanskrit is different and everything is very concise—and expand it in whichever way we like. That makes it of doubtful value.”

KRS Sir : Don't you feel that our ancestors have done us no good by being too cryptic ?

Anyways it is a great interview to read & as Indians, we can feel proud

 

[KRS]

-- His views on religion are : " I feel that religion can give you a code of conduct in which you find happiness in what you are doing, so that whatever you do is helpful or at least not damaging to your fellow human beings. "

-- In the same breath he admits he is agnostic

KRS Sir : Is this Explainable ?
Yes, it is. He believs that Science can answer the Ultimate question. He also thinks that religion's utility is only moralistic. But let us examine this further. What happens when a society is faced with annihilation through utter starvation. If some folks try to survive by being cannibalistic, are they against the moralistic code he is citing? By the law of science and logic, throwing off the infirm to the sea and saving oneself to prolong humanity is perfectly reasonable. But is this acceptable by the law of religion?


-- More interesting is his response to a Q on his views about scientists believing in astrology. He says : " I find that very disconcerting. It means that they are scientists only in terms of knowledge, not in terms of feeling. They are scientists at a superficial level, not deep down."

KRS Sir : your views ?
Again, he is confusing science with religion. 'Feeling' as he mentions, I guess is 'spirituality'. A person who thinks that logic is supreme can not understand that there is something else that is still subject to logic if only he adjusts his basic assumptions:
1. There is no God, versus:
2. There is God.

Most interesting i found was his response to a question on how "we" make tall claims about vedas containing scientific information that predate the Greeks.

He says : “Yes. This may be a reaction to having been subjected to foreign domination for many years. We take a passage from the Vedas—and it is very hard to really interpret the Vedas because the Sanskrit is different and everything is very concise—and expand it in whichever way we like. That makes it of doubtful value.”

KRS Sir : Don't you feel that our ancestors have done us no good by being too cryptic ?
I agree in part. I read a recent article on how our ancestors already discovered the Jet travel! But, this is not that important, because we just need to look at sciences that make a difference. We know that our Rishis knew about natural remedial medicine. I think that Dr. Narlikar is validly expressing a doubt - that is why he is an agnostic - but I would call on him to take a stand and disprove the theories expounded by our Rishis. He can start with Astrology and disprove it - what all he has to do is to take the basic axioms and disprove that they do not work with the given horoscopes.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[hariharan1972]

Great line | Thanks for your thoughts


Quote :

A person who thinks that logic is supreme can not understand that there is something else that is still subject to logic if only he adjusts his basic assumptions:
1. There is no God, versus:
2. There is God.


KRS Sir,

I think this is such a great line !

So as much as one can be "blinded to" logic, one can be "blinded by" logic too in realising God !!!!!

Thanks, a terrific explanation & great thoughts.

You know him ?