Bhagawan Ramana Maharishi

[renuka]

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Q: Since Ajata Advaita denies the existence of even God, to whom to surrender?

B: Surrender requires an object to surrender to only for those who are in the kindergarten stage of spiritual development. The wise simply surrender. To surrender is to give up everything [in other words, to renounce all knowledge of objects, even the mental faculty of objectification]. How then could possibly arise the question of finding out one more object to surrender to?

- Aham Sphurana, page 431

Also I have a question.
The wise did not become wise over night isn't it?
It could have taken years or even lives to become wise.

So at some point even the wise would have been " kindergarten" therefore is there anyone who surrendered sans an object to surrender to?

A wise man who surrenders everything without an external nor an internal object could have surrendered to an object in a past live and earned the ability to just Be and Become totally without objectification.

So when and how is someone is able to reach the state of surrender without objectficiation and not experienced objectification ever in any state of life or any other life?

Not possible isnt it?
We have evolved over life times to reach a human state itself..as animals we could have surrendered to the alpha animal..as early humans we could have surrendered to the chief or the enemy.

As modern humans we have surrendered ourselves to our smart phones.

As seekers we would have surrendered ourselves to our Gurus.
As believers we would surrendered to God.

As Advaitins we would have surrendered to Jnana.

Even the thought to surrender sans objects is a product of surrender to jnana.

So it is really possible to surrender without objectification?

 

[Iyest]

Lovely but at the same time the last chapter of the Gita says
"Give up all varities of dharma and surrender unto Me alone.
I shall liberate you from all sinful reactions; do not fear"
Bhagavad Gita 18:66

Is the state of surrender Shree Krishna is stating a " kindergarten" state or is it the Essence of surrender?

If one understands Shri Krishna to be a separate body, or a separate Atman then it is kindergarten surrender that preserves duality. If one realizes Him to be the all pervading Self as “shown” to Arjuna then it total surrender or Self Realisation. Bhagawan is using traditional terminology which can become tricky. Krishnamurti says surrender to ‘what is’ which could be easier to understand since there is less chance of our mind understanding it as duality. Both are the same since ‘what is’ is the Self in traditional terms.

The Jnani (Self) can speak from both the standpoint of the sadhaka and from the absolute standpoint depending on the question. From the standpoint of the sadhaka kindergarten surrender is a starting point since he lives in duality.

 

[renuka]

If one understands Shri Krishna to be a separate body, or a separate Atman then it is kindergarten surrender that preserves duality. If one realizes Him to be the all pervading Self as “shown” to Arjuna then it total surrender or Self Realisation. Bhagawan is using traditional terminology which can become tricky. Krishnamurti says surrender to ‘what is’ which could be easier to understand since there is less chance of our mind understanding it as duality. Both are the same since ‘what is’ is the Self in traditional terms.

The Jnani (Self) can speak from both the standpoint of the sadhaka and from the absolute standpoint depending on the question. From the standpoint of the sadhaka kindergarten surrender is a starting point since he lives in duality.

Thank you for the wonderful reply.

 

[Iyest]

Thank you for the wonderful reply.

Thanks to Bhagwan and Krishnamurti.

 

[Iyest]

Q: Should I not surrender to the Athman within me, which is said to be my true Self?

B: The ultimate truth is that surrendering “to” something or someone is not unconditional surrender and cannot be. You say you are surrendering to the Athman etc. That means the arbitrary mental conceptualization called “Athman” is still left in your mind. So, how at all can it be unconditional surrender? At best it is a partial surrender. Absolute surrender is letting go of everything. The “I” thought and it’s vrittis, the summa totalis of your ideas about being an individual person, and thus the associated desires, patterns of thought-movement, ambitions, expectations, hopes etc., etc. all are given up at one deadly stroke. Then only the Self remains. This is the real import of J.K’s saying, “Total negation is the essence of the positive”. Of course it needs vairagya in the extreme. The desperation to do it must equal that of one whose head has been pressed underneath water trying to rise to the surface to breathe, or one whose body is doused in kerosene and set ablaze trying to find a water body to fall into. Then, and then alone, is Realisation made possible. Others are merely wasting time in useless prattle.

- Aham Sphurana, page 432

 

[KRS]

Below are questions 7-11 from the work 'Who am I?' from Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi.
8. What is the nature of the mind?
What is called ‘mind’ is a wondrous power residing in the Self. It causes all thoughts to arise. Apart from thoughts, there is no such thing as mind. Therefore, thought is the nature of mind. Apart from thoughts, there is no independent entity called the world. In deep sleep there are no thoughts, and there is no world. In the states of waking and dream, there are thoughts, and there is a world also. Just as the spider emits the thread (of the web) out of itself and again withdraws it into itself, likewise the mind projects the world out of itself and again resolves it into itself. When the mind comes out of the Self, the world appears. Therefore, when the world appears (to be real), the Self does not appear; and when the Self appears (shines) the world does not appear. When one persistently inquires into the nature of the mind, the mind will end leaving the Self (as the residue). What is referred to as the Self is the Atman. The mind always exists only in dependence on something gross; it cannot stay alone. It is the mind that is called the subtle body or the soul (jiva).
9. What is the path of inquiry for understanding the nature of the mind?
That which rises as ‘I’ in this body is the mind. If one inquires as to where in the body the thought ‘I’ rises first, one would discover that it rises in the heart. That is the place of the mind’s origin. Even if one thinks constantly ‘I’ ‘I’, one will be led to that place. Of all the thoughts that arise in the mind, the ‘I’ thought is the first. It is only after the rise of this that the other thoughts arise. It is after the appearance of the first personal pronoun that the second and third personal pronouns appear; without the first personal pronoun there will not be the second and third.
10. How will the mind become quiescent?
By the inquiry ‘Who am I?’. The thought ‘who am I?’ will destroy all other thoughts, and like the stick used for stirring the burning pyre, it will itself in the end get destroyed. Then, there will arise Self-realization.
11. What is the means for constantly holding on to the thought ‘Who am I?’
When other thoughts arise, one should not pursue them, but should inquire: ‘To whom do they arise?’ It does not matter how many thoughts arise. As each thought arises, one should inquire with diligence, “To whom has this thought arisen?”. The answer that would emerge would be “To me”. Thereupon if one inquires “Who am I?”, the mind will go back to its source; and the thought that arose will become quiescent. With repeated practice in this manner, the mind will develop the skill to stay in its source. When the mind that is subtle goes out through the brain and the senseorgans, the gross names and forms appear; when it stays in the heart, the names and forms disappear. Not letting the mind go out, but retaining it in the Heart is what is called “inwardness” (antarmukha). Letting the mind go out of the Heart is known as “externalisation” (bahir-mukha). Thus, when the mind stays in the Heart, the ‘I’ which is the source of all thoughts will go, and the Self which ever exists will shine. Whatever one does, one should do without the egoity “I”. If one acts in that way, all will appear as of the nature of Siva (God).
~Sriramanaarpanamastu

 

[KRS]

THE EQUALITY OF THE JNANI

D. You have said that the Jnani can be and is active, and deals with men and things. I have no doubt about it now.
But you say at the same time, that he has no difference, abheda, to him all is one, he is always in the Consciousness; if so, how does he deal with differences, with men, with things which are surely different?

M. He sees these differences as but appearances, he sees them as not separate from the True, the Real, with which he is one.

D. The Jnani seems to be more accurate in his expressions, he appreciates the differences better than the ordinary man. If sugar is sweet and wormwood is bitter to me, he too seems to realize it so. In fact, all forms, all sounds, all tastes, etc., are the same to him as they are to others.

If so, how can it be said that these are mere appearances? Do they not form part of his life-experience?

M. I have said that equality is the true sign of Jnana.
The very term equality implies the existence of differences.
It is a unity that the Jnani perceives in all differences, which I call equality. Equality does not mean ignorance of distinctions. When you have the Realization, you can see that these differences are very formal, they are not at all substantial, or permanent, and what is essential in all these appearances is the one Truth, the Real. That I call unity. . . .

You referred to sound, taste, form, smell, etc. True, the Jnani appreciates the distinctions, but he always perceives and experiences the one Real in all of them. That is why he has no preferences, whether he moves about, or talks, or does, it is all the One Real in which he does or moves or talks. He has nothing apart from the one Supreme Truth.

- Sat Darshana Bhashya

 

[KRS]

 

[sravna]

Great wisdom. To truly unlock the meaning two more doors have to open. The first one. True belief in oneself the next true trust in others or the door of love. If those two doors are open, the door of wisdom will spontaneously open. Jesus was bang on when he focussed on compassion. It is the natural progression towards detachment and objectivity.

 

[sravna]

Kindly allow me just one more post.

I just want to say that people talk about the importance of logic and knowledge. I believe that if you become truly compassionate you have gained great logic and tonnes of knowledge in the process and also the way to objectivity.

If those blocks are not cleared one has really not made any progress in spite of logic and erudition displayed.

 

[KRS]

INQUIRY IS SUPERIOR

I am Brahman ' meditation is more or less a mental thought.

But the quest for the self I speak of is a direct method, indeed superior to the other meditation; for, the moment you get into a movement of quest for the self and go deeper and deeper, the real Self is waiting there to take you in and then whatever is done is done by something else and you have no hand in it.

In this process, all doubts and discussions are automatically given up just as one who sleeps forgets for the time being all his cares.

D. What certainty is there that something else waits there to welcome me?

M. When one is a sufficiently developed soul (pakvi) he becomes naturally convinced.

D. How is this development possible?

M. Various answers are given. But whatever the previous development, vichara, earnest quest, quickens the development.

D. That is arguing in a circle. I am developed and so am strong for the quest. The quest itself gives me development.

M. The mind has always this sort of difficulty. It wants a certain theory to satisfy itself. Really no theory is necessary for the man who seriously desires to approach God or realize his own true being.

- Sat Dharshana Bhashya

 

[KRS]

 

[sravna]

INQUIRY IS SUPERIOR

I am Brahman ' meditation is more or less a mental thought.

But the quest for the self I speak of is a direct method, indeed superior to the other meditation; for, the moment you get into a movement of quest for the self and go deeper and deeper, the real Self is waiting there to take you in and then whatever is done is done by something else and you have no hand in it.

In this process, all doubts and discussions are automatically given up just as one who sleeps forgets for the time being all his cares.

D. What certainty is there that something else waits there to welcome me?

M. When one is a sufficiently developed soul (pakvi) he becomes naturally convinced.

D. How is this development possible?

M. Various answers are given. But whatever the previous development, vichara, earnest quest, quickens the development.

D. That is arguing in a circle. I am developed and so am strong for the quest. The quest itself gives me development.

M. The mind has always this sort of difficulty. It wants a certain theory to satisfy itself. Really no theory is necessary for the man who seriously desires to approach God or realize his own true being.

- Sat Dharshana Bhashya

When a quest is not done by a very competent mind it becomes less capable of sustaining against external forces. The fight for the control of body is between mind and the external reality. As mind pulls it inward one step, reality of our times pulls it two steps outward. The pressures are too much to do it in worldly settings. Either you give up or project fake spirituality.

Unless the mind is really capable the only approach is to force spirituality into body by tantric techniques and awakening kundalini. The body then may be able to resist the external forces better. But I am not sure whether it can be raised so easily to the required extent.

 

[renuka]

INQUIRY IS SUPERIOR

I am Brahman ' meditation is more or less a mental thought.

But the quest for the self I speak of is a direct method, indeed superior to the other meditation; for, the moment you get into a movement of quest for the self and go deeper and deeper, the real Self is waiting there to take you in and then whatever is done is done by something else and you have no hand in it.

In this process, all doubts and discussions are automatically given up just as one who sleeps forgets for the time being all his cares.

D. What certainty is there that something else waits there to welcome me?

M. When one is a sufficiently developed soul (pakvi) he becomes naturally convinced.

D. How is this development possible?

M. Various answers are given. But whatever the previous development, vichara, earnest quest, quickens the development.

D. That is arguing in a circle. I am developed and so am strong for the quest. The quest itself gives me development.

M. The mind has always this sort of difficulty. It wants a certain theory to satisfy itself. Really no theory is necessary for the man who seriously desires to approach God or realize his own true being.

- Sat Dharshana Bhashya

I am a little confused here.
Why is there a grading here as in Superior to other meditation?

Is there really Superior or Inferior in the quest for Paramatma?

 

[KRS]

When a quest is not done by a very competent mind it becomes less capable of sustaining against external forces. The fight for the control of body is between mind and the external reality. As mind pulls it inward one step, reality of our times pulls it two steps outward. The pressures are too much to do it in worldly settings. Either you give up or project fake spirituality.

Unless the mind is really capable the only approach is to force spirituality into body by tantric techniques and awakening kundalini. The body then may be able to resist the external forces better. But I am not sure whether it can be raised so easily to the required extent.

Sri Sravana Sir,

I do not know whether you have read Tattvabodha by Adi Sankaracharya. I think your thesis may well have been addressed there.

I am not competent enough to respond to your propositions. Thank you, Sir.

 

[KRS]

I am a little confused here.
Why is there a grading here as in Superior to other meditation?

Is there really Superior or Inferior in the quest for Paramatma?

Srimathi Renuka Ji,

Maharishi’s experience was the direct path.

In my opinion, ‘Superior’ only means ‘better efficacy or efficiency’.

Why? Because in all other Sadhanas, it is a two step process. One fixes on a mind object, come to a point of attaining that vision. But still not Moksha. Because Moksha per Advaitha is about Atma realization. So, one still has one more step to go.

Whereas, Atma Vichara is the direct path to that realization, with no intermediate step.

While saying this, he never put down anyone worshipping Ishta Daivathas, nor did he say anything bad about any other Sadhanas within our Dharma.

He was a pure Advaithin, and he taught his way. It is synonymous with Jnana Yoga.

There is a important book called Ashtavargha Gita, in which a Guru named Ashtavargha teaches King Janaka about Atma Vichara.

Hope this explains.

 

[sravna]

Sri Sravana Sir,

I do not know whether you have read Tattvabodha by Adi Sankaracharya. I think your thesis may well have been addressed there.

I am not competent enough to respond to your propositions. Thank you, Sir.

No Sir. I totally believe in and swear by Adi Shankaracharya's teachings. But the details to realise them are done in my own little ways. Thank you Sir for the reference.

 

[renuka]

Srimathi Renuka Ji,

Maharishi’s experience was the direct path.

In my opinion, ‘Superior’ only means ‘better efficacy or efficiency’.

Why? Because in all other Sadhanas, it is a two step process. One fixes on a mind object, come to a point of attaining that vision. But still not Moksha. Because Moksha per Advaitha is about Atma realization. So, one still has one more step to go.

Whereas, Atma Vichara is the direct path to that realization, with no intermediate step.

While saying this, he never put down anyone worshipping Ishta Daivathas, nor did he say anything bad about any other Sadhanas within our Dharma.

He was a pure Advaithin, and he taught his way. It is synonymous with Jnana Yoga.

There is a important book called Ashtavargha Gita, in which a Guru named Ashtavargha teaches King Janaka about Atma Vichara.

Hope this explains.

Thanks for the reply.
It made me understand Maharishi better.
I have read Ashtavakra gita before.

I always wondered Ashtavakra( The 8 bend/curved one), somehow all good philosophy comes in 8.

Eight limbs of Yoga.
Noble eightfold path of Buddhism.

May be there is something about number 8 being a giver of Jnaana.
Shree Krishna being the 8th child and also the 8th Avatar.

May be some message in that.

 

[KRS]

IS BRAHMAN BEYOND?

D. This seems to contradict the statements that the Self is beyond the mind, that the mind cannot know Brahman, that it is beyond thought and speech.

M. That is why they say that mind is two-fold:
there is the higher pure mind as well as the lower impure mind. The impure mind cannot know, but the pure knows.

It does not mean that the pure mind measures the immeasurable Self, the Brahman. It means the Self makes itself felt in the pure mind so that even when you are in the midst of thoughts you feel the Presence, you realize the truth that you are one with the deeper Self and the thought-waves are there but only on the surface.

D. That means the mano-nasa or the ahamkara nasa - the destruction of the mind or of the ego you speak of - is then not absolute destruction?

M. Yes. The mind gets clear of impurities and becomes pure enough to reflect the truth, the real Self. This is impossible when the ego is active and assertive.

- Sat Darshana Bhashya and Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

 

[Iyest]

No amount of doing or meditating can reveal the Self:

So let go of the ego, and the Self is revealed. But people will not understand this. They want formulas, concepts, methods - in short they want something they can “do”. Whenever they have wanted something in their lives, they have done something to obtain it, and probably succeeded. So they think Enlightenment can also be won this way. Many charlatans also cater to the psychological requirements of such gullible people, prescribing such mental exercises for them that plunge their minds into a state of deliberately sustained bliss; thus, the poor victims think they have successfully Enlightened themselves [laughs]. But no! No amount of doing or “meditating” can reveal the Self. The loftiest, most useful, and most legitimate advice that can be given to an aspirant for Realisation is simply “Summa Iru”. But people want a formula by means of which this can be achieved: therefore the Jnanavichara is prescribed.

- Aham Sphurana, page 503

 

[KRS]

Mr. C. relates how the reading of Patanjali Sutras in 1926 had greatly impressed him. The first few sutras had convinced him of the truth of the teaching, but unfortunately
there was no one to give him proper guidance till he met Sri Bhagavan early in 1936.

Bhagavan:. Patanjali’s first sutras are indeed the climax of all systems of yoga.
All yogas aim at the cessation of the vritti (modification of the mind). This can be brought about in the variety of ways mentioned in the scriptures through mind control, which frees consciousness from all thoughts and keeps it pure. Effort is necessary. In fact effort is itself yoga.

C. I suppose efforts have to be made in the waking state, which implies that moksha can be gained only in jagrat.
Bh. Quite so, awareness is necessary for mind control; otherwise who is to make the effort? You cannot make it in sleep or
under the influence of drugs. Also mukti has to be gained in full awareness, because the Reality itself is pure awareness.

C. There seems to be nothing but awareness, for to know anything there must be knowledge – we cannot get over that.
Bh. Certainly. Subjective knowledge – knowledge knowing itself is jnana.
It is then the subject as the knower, the object as the known and the knowledge which connects them.

C. This last is not clear to me in this case.
Bh. Why so?
Knowledge is the light which links the seer to the seen. Suppose you go in search of a book in a library in pitch darkness. Can you find it without light, although you, the subject, and the book, the object, are both
present?
Light has to be present to unite you. This link between the subject and the object in every experience is chit, consciousness. It is both the substratum as well as the witness of the experience, the seer of Patanjali.

- Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi.
Guru Ramana.

 

[renuka]

Mr. C. relates how the reading of Patanjali Sutras in 1926 had greatly impressed him. The first few sutras had convinced him of the truth of the teaching, but unfortunately
there was no one to give him proper guidance till he met Sri Bhagavan early in 1936.

Bhagavan:. Patanjali’s first sutras are indeed the climax of all systems of yoga.
All yogas aim at the cessation of the vritti (modification of the mind). This can be brought about in the variety of ways mentioned in the scriptures through mind control, which frees consciousness from all thoughts and keeps it pure. Effort is necessary. In fact effort is itself yoga.

C. I suppose efforts have to be made in the waking state, which implies that moksha can be gained only in jagrat.
Bh. Quite so, awareness is necessary for mind control; otherwise who is to make the effort? You cannot make it in sleep or
under the influence of drugs. Also mukti has to be gained in full awareness, because the Reality itself is pure awareness.

C. There seems to be nothing but awareness, for to know anything there must be knowledge – we cannot get over that.
Bh. Certainly. Subjective knowledge – knowledge knowing itself is jnana.
It is then the subject as the knower, the object as the known and the knowledge which connects them.

C. This last is not clear to me in this case.
Bh. Why so?
Knowledge is the light which links the seer to the seen. Suppose you go in search of a book in a library in pitch darkness. Can you find it without light, although you, the subject, and the book, the object, are both
present?
Light has to be present to unite you. This link between the subject and the object in every experience is chit, consciousness. It is both the substratum as well as the witness of the experience, the seer of Patanjali.

- Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi.
Guru Ramana.

" Knowledge is the light that links the seer to the seen"

Reminds me of the verse of the Light.

God is the Light of the heavens and earth. His Light is like this: there is a niche, and in it a lamp, the lamp inside a glass, a glass like a glittering star, fuelled from a blessed olive tree from neither east nor west, whose oil almost gives light even when no fire touches it- light upon light- God guides whoever He will to his Light; God draws such comparisons for people; God has full knowledge of everything-

 

[Iyest]

Whatever doubt may rise, it cannot rise without you, the one who rose first and then only raised it. Therefore, the original doubt, namely that of not knowing who this “you” is, is alone the root of all doubts.

 

[Iyest]

Ego cannot attain Liberation through sadhana:

The idea of performing sadhana arises to the one who longs for himself the fruit of the sadhana, but the ego cannot obtain Liberation. The only useful thing it can do is to fade away. Then Self or Reality alone is left.

- Aham Sphurana, page 649

 

[KRS]

Raghavachariar was Superintendent of Public Works Dept. at Tiruvannamalai from 1910 onwards. He paid occasional visits to Sri Ramana.

Whenever Raghavachariar went up the hill in 1910, he found a crowd with the Maharshi in whose presence he felt disinclined to speak. One day he went up with an intent to submit three questions or requests:

(i) Can you grant me a few minutes for private personal talk – free from the presence of others? (ii) I should like to have your opinion on the Theosophical Society of which I am a member. (iii) Will you please enable me to see your real form, if I am eligible to see it? He says:

When I prostrated and sat before him, there was a crowd of about 30 persons; but they gradually dispersed. So I was alone with him, and my first query thus got answered without my stating it. Then he asked me, of his own accord, if the book in my hand was the Gita and whether I was a member of the Theosophical Society, and remarked even before I answered his queries, “It is doing good work.” My second question also thus being anticipated, I waited eagerly for the third.

After half an hour, I opened my mouth and said, “Just as Arjuna wished to see the form of Sri Krishna and asked for darshan, I wish to have darshan of your real form, if I am eligible.” He was then sitting on a platform with a picture of Dakshinamurthi painted on the wall next to him. He silently gazed on as usual and I gazed into his eyes. Then his body and also the picture of Dakshinamurthi1 disappeared from my view. There was only empty space, without even a wall, before my eyes. Then followed a whitish cloud in the outline of the Maharshi and of Dakshinamurthi, before my eyes. Gradually, the eyes, nose etc. and other details were outlined in lightning-like lines. These got broadened till the figure of the Swami and Dakshinamurthi became ablaze with very strong and unendurable light. I closed my eyes in consequence. I waited for a few minutes and when I opened my eyes I found the Maharshi and Dakshinamurthi in the same form as before. I prostrated and came away.

The impact of the above experience was such that I did not dare go near the Maharshi for almost for one month. Later, when I went up to the Skandasram, I narrated the above experience and requested him to explain. After a pause, he said, “You wanted to see my form. You saw my disappearance. I am formless. Ganapati Muni had a similar experience and you may consult him.” I did not consult the Muni.

B.V. Narasimha Swami in his book Self Realization records:
Raghavachariar was coming to Maharshi off and on. His wife and mother feared that he might give up his social duties and become a recluse. They went to the Maharshi and told him their fear. The Maharshi consequently admonished Raghavachariar about the dangers of becoming a recluse without the severe training required for it. The Maharshi was giving similar advice to numerous others also.

- Face to Face