Bhakthi & Logic

[Srimadhan]

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Bhakthi mostly defies logic. Any one in bhakthi can be closely associated with a person who is mad and there is every possibility they will treated as such. The reverse is also true. A mad person in all probabilities will look like a Bhaktha. How to distinguish them? A very tough question indeed. Only with experience we can find it. Let me not go further into it and stay with the topic

Let me take an example. One of name of Lord Vishnu is Madhavan. I don’t know it actually means and also don’t want to know.

Whenever I hear this name, I get two thoughts.
1. Ma + Davan - A person who does a lot of penance.
2. A person who does great penance reaches him.

Both appears to convey a wrong meaning?!!

This helps me to connect with him and think about him whenever I hear the word Madhavan. So without going into the Meaning, my thoughts remain with him. This name also reminds me that I will have to stay focussed on Meditation.

Saint Valmiki repeated “Mara Mara” instead of saying “Rama Rama” and got the god’s blessing. The meaning I understand for “Mara” is evil i.e the reverse. For Bhakthi, the intention matters and not the meaning.

Lesson "I learn" from Saint Valmiki's story is that whatever helps us to connect us with God is Bhakthi. The very purpose is to stay connected and not the meaning. "To me", it does not matter whether there is any logic to it or not.

Courtesy: www.aathmanawarenesscentre.com

 

[sangom]

Bhakthi mostly defies logic. Any one in bhakthi can be closely associated with a person who is mad and there is every possibility they will treated as such. The reverse is also true. A mad person in all probabilities will look like a Bhaktha. How to distinguish them? A very tough question indeed. Only with experience we can find it. Let me not go further into it and stay with the topic

Let me take an example. One of name of Lord Vishnu is Madhavan. I don’t know it actually means and also don’t want to know.

Whenever I hear this name, I get two thoughts.
1. Ma + Davan - A person who does a lot of penance.
2. A person who does great penance reaches him.

Both appears to convey a wrong meaning?!!

This helps me to connect with him and think about him whenever I hear the word Madhavan. So without going into the Meaning, my thoughts remain with him. This name also reminds me that I will have to stay focussed on Meditation.

Saint Valmiki repeated “Mara Mara” instead of saying “Rama Rama” and got the god’s blessing. The meaning I understand for “Mara” is evil i.e the reverse. For Bhakthi, the intention matters and not the meaning.

Lesson "I learn" from Saint Valmiki's story is that whatever helps us to connect us with God is Bhakthi. The very purpose is to stay connected and not the meaning. "To me", it does not matter whether there is any logic to it or not.

Courtesy: www.aathmanawarenesscentre.com

mA dhavan means the dhava (husband, consort, one who has married) mA (goddess of wealth, Lakshmi). You are perhaps right in saying that "Any one in bhakthi can be closely associated with a person who is mad", but then you should also ponder over whether bhakti will not lead one to a fully mad state of the brain.

Secondly, if god or nature had really wanted all humans to be bhaktas, and mad thereby it (god/nature) could and must have created all humans as fully blown mad fellows, which it has not done - at least so far . Therefore, there is adequate grounds to assume that god (nature) wanted man to be something else and not a bhakti-mad person.

BTW, sree madan means one who is like cupid for wealth, i.e., one who is mad after lucre; alternatively we can also say one who is haughty due to wealth. Since neither meaning goes along with the bhakti-induced posts which you write, what is it that you propose to do?

 

[Govinda]

Secondly, if god or nature had really wanted all humans to be bhaktas, and mad thereby it (god/nature) could and must have created all humans as fully blown mad fellows, which it has not done - at least so far . Therefore, there is adequate grounds to assume that god (nature) wanted man to be something else and not a bhakti-mad person.

Creation at the will of Lord, like creating from the dust, is abrahamic.

We, as Atma(s)/Selves) are apurushEya/ever-existing. We are only given bodies (hence mind) according to our karma (desire/aggregate result of knowledge-actions). So, We dont have the perfect knowledge at birth.

Such Knowledge has to earned through experiences, shAstrAs and repeated corrections. In-fact, we are mad with ignorance!Bhakti is to be earned thru one's own right karma and right knowledge.

Bhakti is a means and karma (with renunciation) and jnana (self-realization that Creator is the Self of ALL and we are dependent on HIM) are its cause and accessories. So, Bhakti can be considered as a God's reward for good karma and right knowledge. That is why, 99% deny something or the other, clouded by the veil of ignorance, which was the result of bad karma.

True Bhakti is a result of mature mind, and clear perception caused by good-karma!

 

[Govinda]

Lesson "I learn" from Saint Valmiki's story is that whatever helps us to connect us with God is Bhakthi. The very purpose is to stay connected and not the meaning. "To me", it does not matter whether there is any logic to it or not.

SriMadhan,

Nice name.

I appreciate your devotion to the vedic deities, even if it has not arisen out of right knowledge/learning or out of your current good karma.

Your religiosity/faith is bestowed to you by the creator out of His own will. So, you might have had some good karma and god's grace, qualified for belief and bhakti. By pursuing such devotion, you will earn more good karma, and will be eventually lead to the path of right knowledge and made to experience true-bhakti.

So, the supreme goal of True Bhakti/Liberation will be achieved finally with complete-most perfect knowledge (about the nature of the Supreme Lord). Until this level, one's knowledge is proportional to one's KARMA!

['you' means 'anyone'!]

 

[renuka]

Bhakthi mostly defies logic. Any one in bhakthi can be closely associated with a person who is mad and there is every possibility they will treated as such. The reverse is also true. A mad person in all probabilities will look like a Bhaktha. How to distinguish them? A very tough question indeed. Only with experience we can find it. Let me not go further into it and stay with the topic

Let me take an example. One of name of Lord Vishnu is Madhavan. I don’t know it actually means and also don’t want to know.

Whenever I hear this name, I get two thoughts.
1. Ma + Davan - A person who does a lot of penance.
2. A person who does great penance reaches him.

Both appears to convey a wrong meaning?!!

This helps me to connect with him and think about him whenever I hear the word Madhavan. So without going into the Meaning, my thoughts remain with him. This name also reminds me that I will have to stay focussed on Meditation.

Saint Valmiki repeated “Mara Mara” instead of saying “Rama Rama” and got the god’s blessing. The meaning I understand for “Mara” is evil i.e the reverse. For Bhakthi, the intention matters and not the meaning.

Lesson "I learn" from Saint Valmiki's story is that whatever helps us to connect us with God is Bhakthi. The very purpose is to stay connected and not the meaning. "To me", it does not matter whether there is any logic to it or not.

Courtesy: www.aathmanawarenesscentre.com

Dear Sir,

I would like to humbly differ in opinion..before that as Sangom ji rightfully said Ma Dhava means husband of Ma(Lakshmi)

I will also give you some play of words of the Madhava kind to make the understanding of the Mara Mara recitation of Valmiki within the scope of logic.

In Shleshalankara rules of Sanskrit..sometimes we find some sentences that can carry a dual meaning.

For example:

sarvado mAdhvaH rakshatu

सर्वदो माध्वः रक्षतु

At one glance it would appear as to mean "May Madhava(Vishnu) who bestows everything protect you"

Ok now with rearranging words and breaking the sandhi rules..this line can be re written as:

sarvadA umAdhavaH rakshatu.

सर्वदा उमाधवः रक्षतु

And the meaning changes to "May the Lord of Uma(Shiva) protect you always"

Going by this..many words and sentences are a play of words and can be rearranged to give different meanings.

Ratnakara was the Adi Kavi Valmiki in the making..so his "Mara Mara" was not recitation of evil evil as sometimes thought...it was just a play of words rearrangement which became
Rama Rama.

Also just to add ...Bhakti does NOT defy logic..it is just that sometimes we havent found the answer yet to some phenomenons.

 

[Brahmanyan]

"Please don't break my belief Thatha" said my little ten year old grand daughter to me when I started defining God by its attributes and tried to prick holes in her belief of personification of the Almighty in the Avatharas. She goes to Temple and participate in Bhajans and reciting slokas with my wife (her Patti). Every night I spend some free time with my grand daughter telling bed time stories and discussing about day's happenings in her school. She is an intelligent kid. I was stunned by the depth of her words. I thought about this and questioned myself why I should dissect every belief to find whether they are logical or supported by scientific revelations. Belief and imagination are fertile fields of mental activity exclusively given to humans. I understood that discussing some subject in which my knowledge is limited and without personal experience is just futile academic exercise.

Well, the present generation of youngsters have independent thinking, let us encourage and do only course correction when they go wrong.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sangom]

Creation at the will of Lord, like creating from the dust, is abrahamic.

We, as Atma(s)/Selves) are apurushEya/ever-existing. We are only given bodies (hence mind) according to our karma (desire/aggregate result of knowledge-actions). So, We dont have the perfect knowledge at birth.

Such Knowledge has to earned through experiences, shAstrAs and repeated corrections. In-fact, we are mad with ignorance!Bhakti is to be earned thru one's own right karma and right knowledge.

Bhakti is a means and karma (with renunciation) and jnana (self-realization that Creator is the Self of ALL and we are dependent on HIM) are its cause and accessories. So, Bhakti can be considered as a God's reward for good karma and right knowledge. That is why, 99% deny something or the other, clouded by the veil of ignorance, which was the result of bad karma.

True Bhakti is a result of mature mind, and clear perception caused by good-karma!

What is "true Bhakti"? Is there "untrue or false bhakti"also? If so how to distinguish between the two?

 

[Srimadhan]

All

Thank you very much for your response. I understand the meaning of Madhavan now.

I am not the competent authority to decide what is best for each individual or how they can connect with God. I would like to keep it open and leave it each individual's wish.There may be crore or more paths. Some are unique and some are not.

My point here is not about the meaning or logic. I just wanted to state only 1 point here i.e the ways does not matter JUST CONNECTING WITH GOD matters.

I am just expressing here how I connect with God and my approach here.

Regards
Srimadhan

 

[renuka]

I always have this one nagging doubt in my mind...in all fields of knowledge in this world be it from home science to rocket science, logic is applied and learning goes by question and answer and by examination too.

But when it come to Atma Jnaana alone applying logic is not "advocated".

For a Hindu... Atma Jnaana is deemed the very basis for our existence..the aim is to gain Atma Jnaana eventually ..why this field alone is always shrouded in mystery and many want the mystery to remain like how kids are made to believe that Santa Claus exists.

Most adults know that Santa Claus and his Ruldoph the Red Nose Reindeer do not exists but this tradition is kept alive so that the faith of children in the spirit of Christmas is not broken.

I dread to wonder if other fields of knowledge also start to removing logic as a requirement to practice it.

Imagine if I cease to apply logic as a doctor when I deal with my patients?? God..I would not want to even imagine the disastrous consequences.

 

[renuka]

My point here is not about the meaning or logic. I just wanted to state only 1 point here i.e the ways does not matter JUST CONNECTING WITH GOD matters.

I am just expressing here how I connect with God and my approach here.

Regards
Srimadhan

Dear Srimadhan ji,

I do not think many people think that "Just connecting with God is all that matters"

Frankly speaking I also have a slight doubt if anyone actually follows this.I feel only a Jeevan Muktha or a person who has Samadarshinah might do so and no one else.

If connecting with God is all that matters than many people will not pay such minute details to every aspect of ritual purity and rules and regulation of prayer and culture.

 

[sangom]

Dear Srimadhan ji,

I do not think many people think that "Just connecting with God is all that matters"

Frankly speaking I also have a slight doubt if anyone actually follows this.I feel only a Jeevan Muktha or a person who has Samadarshinah might do so and no one else.

If connecting with God is all that matters than many people will not pay such minute details to every aspect of ritual purity and rules and regulation of prayer and culture.

What is this "connecting with God" that he is talking about? He imagines for himself that he is connecting to god. That's all. He says a true bhakta will be like a mad fellow. So, he is trying the easier way — to become mad, I feel. I have seen many such unfortunate cases who bring untold misery to their dependents and family, ultimately. We can only lament saying, it is "vidhi".

 

[Vaagmi]

I always have this one nagging doubt in my mind...in all fields of knowledge in this world be it from home science to rocket science, logic is applied and learning goes by question and answer and by examination too.
But when it come to Atma Jnaana alone applying logic is not "advocated".
For a Hindu... Atma Jnaana is deemed the very basis for our existence..the aim is to gain Atma Jnaana eventually ..why this field alone is always shrouded in mystery and many want the mystery to remain like how kids are made to believe that Santa Claus exists.
Most adults know that Santa Claus and his Ruldoph the Red Nose Reindeer do not exists but this tradition is kept alive so that the faith of children in the spirit of Christmas is not broken.
I dread to wonder if other fields of knowledge also start to removing logic as a requirement to practice it.
Imagine if I cease to apply logic as a doctor when I deal with my patients?? God..I would not want to even imagine the disastrous consequences.

dear Madam,

Greetings. Your question can be answered this way:

Being a Doctor, I am sure you would be aware of miraculous recoveries of terminally ill patients. The logic there takes a back seat. so every thing is not learnt with just questions and answers alone and logic. the logic which is the outcome of Qs and As suffers from a major flaw. Without factoring in the inexorable TIME the logic which is applicable presently loses its meaning. what is true as logic (derived from Qs and As) today may not be true tomorrow when we learn more about the given facts and axiomatic truths. so we use the term relative. all logically derived truths are relative truths. What is realised is the ultimate truth. And realisation is not easy. aatma jnaana is part of the realisation. It is a psychic process and is abstract in nature. May be that is the reason it is a very personal experience which can not be explained like the intense pain experienced by your patient. Hope this small piece helps. Thank you.

 

[Vaagmi]

What is this "connecting with God" that he is talking about? He imagines for himself that he is connecting to god. That's all. He says a true bhakta will be like a mad fellow. So, he is trying the easier way — to become mad, I feel. I have seen many such unfortunate cases who bring untold misery to their dependents and family, ultimately. We can only lament saying, it is "vidhi".

Dear Sangom and Renuka Madam,

As we are using an alien tongue here the "connecting" can mean different things to different people. From a reading of the Op i interpret that the "connecting" is the total belief that there exists a God and that it is He who can ultimately grant the salvation-again cliches are unavoidable if salvation is a much maligned word-its, after all, an alien tongue. Those who waste their lives in the name of connecting (what sangom is talking about) are people who have deliberately chosen to deceive themselves. They are miserable drop outs in the race called human life. Since God word gives respectability they use that word and tell the world that they are special people who have achieved the impossible. Let us forget these unfortunate failures for a moment. There is indeed a possibility to connect to god. That involves a total belief in the existence of God and a total surrender to Him. If you have lingering doubt in your mind about the existence part of this reality then you can never know what is that connecting. There are many normal (not the abnormal ones Sangom is telling us about) intelligent successful(by the world's standards) people who have experienced what is connecting to God. There is not sufficient ground to deny those experiences as hallucinations or wishful thinking. Thanks.

 

[Srimadhan]

Renuka Madam

ATMA Gnana also the reached with logic. Patanjali yoga sutra's i.e 8 limbs of yoga is a very structured approach to Atma Gnana. In Bhakthi, the heart and feeling are giving more importance.

Let me try and explain this. Every one in this world is gifted with both Heart and Mind. Some people apply more of the Heart (or the feeling type) and some apply more of the Mind (thinking type) in day to day life. With self-analysis, one can find out whether they are heart oriented person or a mind oriented person.

My understanding here is that if we are a Heart oriented person, Bhakthi will MOSTLY suit us. If we are inclined towards Mind, Patanjali's 8 limbs of Yoga will suit us.

To quote Upanishads here, if Atma is the Ocean, the mind is the Waves. From my experience, if you keep on using your Mind, you might become addicted to it. Hence the probability of moving towards Atma might get stalled. To put it differently, the more we use the mind, the more we tend to use it EVEN WHEN NOT REQUIRED. Hence the stress is on not using the Mind to the extent possible.

This does not mean that we should not used our mind. We should use our mind when required and we should also learn to keep the mind aside when it is not required. This is a balance which we will know by practise and experience.

As a seeker, I feel that it is my duty to be available ALWAYS for all the spiritual aspirants. You can reach me at 9840217417 or [email protected] any time.

Regards
Srimadhan

 

[Srimadhan]

Sangom Sir

With due respects would like to note that Narada has expressed in Narada Bhakthi Sutras 7 different ways how we can connect with god. :argue:

I having been remaining sane "Connecting to God" for 17 years in this manner. Would remain as is....

I necessarily do not want to become mad:lol:. I am just explaining my thought process here sir.

Regards
Srimadhan

 

[renuka]

Sangom Sir

With due respects would like to note that Narada has expressed in Narada Bhakthi Sutras 7 different ways how we can connect with god. :argue:

I having been remaining sane "Connecting to God" for 17 years in this manner. Would remain as is....

I necessarily do not want to become mad:lol:. I am just explaining my thought process here sir.

Regards
Srimadhan

Dear Srimadhan ji,

After seeing all the cute smileys in your post...now I feel even more relaxed to read your post.

What a relief yaar cos initially I thought you were very serious types...so will keep reading up your post and interacting more.

 

[auh]

After seeing all the cute smileys in your post...now I feel even more relaxed to read your post.

What a relief yaar cos initially I thought you were very serious types...

So, does that mean if a person puts in a few smileys here and there he would be construed as a jovial type... just to clarify on this thought process. One for the record -> , and one in general ->

I now understand why someone in this forum puts so many smileys in a post, perhaps to create a record of sorts in 'smiley-putting'.

 

[renuka]

So, does that mean if a person puts in a few smileys here and there he would be construed as a jovial type... just to clarify on this thought process. One for the record -> , and one in general ->

I now understand why someone in this forum puts so many smileys in a post, perhaps to create a record of sorts in 'smiley-putting'.

Dear Auh ji,

I seldom smileys in my posts even though I am kind of jovial(it is becos I am too lazy to paste them!) so I use lots of LOLs in my post.

Its easier to type LOL than to search for a smiley.

 

[auh]

True, when I search for a particular smiley, the darn thing just doesn't come up ... and so this is easy ;-)

 

[sangom]

Sangom Sir

With due respects would like to note that Narada has expressed in Narada Bhakthi Sutras 7 different ways how we can connect with god.

I having been remaining sane "Connecting to God" for 17 years in this manner. Would remain as is....

I necessarily do not want to become mad. I am just explaining my thought process here sir.

Regards
Srimadhan

Shri Srimadhan,

FYI, I have perhaps been living a little more than necessary on this earth and, in that process, I have also witnessed some people who experimented with the chakras, worshipped the Sri chakra, meru, etc., etc., and finally.... and that takes several years, most of them suffered some kind of mental dislocation which was more than what could be ascribed to old age and resultant deterioration of the brain cells.

BTW, you must be believing that this Narada Bhakti Sutra - NBS - (I do not think it is called "sutras", because there is only one 'sutram' or trick there, imo.) must have been compiled (and also written on palm-leaves) by the well-known Narada. This Narada is more famous as a person who had to compulsorily create at least one quarrel everyday between two people. Do you think such a person had any qualification to talk, let alone preach, about bhakti?

And, whose are the (conduct) certificates which Narada is purportedly producing? sanakādi kumāras, vyāsa, śuka, śāṇḍilya, garga, viṣṇu (?), kauṇḍilya, śeṣa, uddhava, āruṇi, bali, hanumān and vibhīṣaṇa. In this list Siva who prescribed (according to yourself) meditating in chakras in the book named Vigyan Bairav Tantra is, sadly missing. Hence, the omission of Siva who must have preceded Narada, is very significant, according to me. For Narada, even religious rites and social practices are not at all relevant and the so-called bhakta should spend his/her life wholly in the service to god and that too with complete devotion. Simply citing NBS is neither here nor there; if you truly believe in NBS, then don't worry about your family, friends, earning or society and throw yourself completely in the type of bhakti which Narada writes about. May be you can do some "narada business" and create misunderstandings, quarrels, squabbles (சிண்டு முடியறது) or even armed fight among any two persons daily, after taking a franchise for such business from Narada

Since you said that you have been "Connecting to God" for 17 years in this manner, why not tell us lesser mortals, as to how that god (of yours) looks like? Also, it should, therefore, be much easier for you to ask god and obtain "moksha" ASAP. Is it not? Why then are you delaying it?

 

[renuka]

Dear Sangom ji,


You know out here daily many people drive on Mahameru...I mean there is a highway here in Malaysia named Lebuhraya Mahameru.(Mahameru Highway).

I really wonder how this highway was named Mahameru.

 

[Srimadhan]

Sangom Sir

Thanks very much for writing your thoughts in a detailed manner. Narada is considered as a Brahma Rishi. He creates all the squabbles for the greater good..I understand. I don't wish to imitate him on this:laugh:.

In his creation, I feel that no one is a lesser mortal. For me, I connect him as a formless God. Also as my duty of this human birth is moving towards him, I try to the extent possible to move in the direction. For me, journey is important and not the ultimate result i.e Moksha. I would like to keep it that way.

I would like to thank you very much for your time and effort you take to write to my thoughts/posts.

Regards
Srimadhan

 

[renuka]

Dear Srimadhan ji,

Bhakti is denoted as love for God with our thoughts orbiting only God and this increases our consciousness till self realization.

You know actually "LOGIC" explains Bhakti.


L= Love

O=Orbiting

G=God

I=Increases

C=Consciousness

LOGIC

So next time when we hear the word LOGIC think that LOGIC defines Bhakti.

Didn't I say there is Logic in everything?

 

[sangom]

Sangom Sir

Thanks very much for writing your thoughts in a detailed manner. Narada is considered as a Brahma Rishi. He creates all the squabbles for the greater good..I understand. I don't wish to imitate him on this:laugh:.

In his creation, I feel that no one is a lesser mortal. For me, I connect him as a formless God. Also as my duty of this human birth is moving towards him, I try to the extent possible to move in the direction. For me, journey is important and not the ultimate result i.e Moksha. I would like to keep it that way.

I would like to thank you very much for your time and effort you take to write to my thoughts/posts.

Regards
Srimadhan

Please look at the portion highlighted. To me this shows how hypocritical your bhakti or "contact with god" is or else you have not been able to make any "real" contact with god and are only falsely claiming to do so. Also, you are very fond of this world and the comforts here and you do not want any moksha or any such humbug, in reality.

I will only plead to you to stop all this pretences of bhakti, connecting to god and so on, and start living as an honest human being. That will be what god has created you really for - to lead a simple, honest life without any pretences and that will do you immense good in your journey of lives and deaths.

 

[sarang]

What is the logic in concluding that these are mutually exclusive. What stops a bhakta to be honest or an honest person to be a bhakta. Some put forward ridiculous ideas and arguments.

I will only plead to you to stop all this pretences of bhakti, connecting to god and so on, and start living as an honest human being. That will be what god has created you really for - to lead a simple, honest life without any pretences and that will do you immense good in your journey of lives and deaths.